xthAi76s

1) Of course traffic engineering is important; that certainly makes sense.

2) Having well thought road regulations is also important.

3) Enforcing said regulations is certainly also important, and having high enough penalties for infractions is important.

BUT, because there is not likely to soon be enough technology employed on our planet's roads to watch over everyone all the time,

4) educating the driving populace is also very important. You can't engineer away pure stupidity/selfishness. No amount of traffic engineering (save for automatic computer driven vehicles) will prevent most of the accidents that occur from, say, tailgating at speeds over 100KM/h. Neither will traffic engineering stop people from going down roads the wrong way (although, true, it may indeed help discourage the behavior).

As for Thai drivers, I agree that many seem to be fairly well adapted to the road conditions here which is to be expected. And, yes, many of them are indeed rather impressive in how they manage to stay alive (thus far). However, I can show you things in any inner city or poverty stricken country that might impress the same.

For instance, drug dealers in the 80s and 90s in NYC were remarkably adept at averting arrest by NYC and federal police. They had all kinds of tricks. They were older and would approach us young kids when they thought police were hot on their trail and would have neighborhood kids (most of us unaware of the danger we were being put in) hold all manner of drugs (and even sell it) until the heat was off of them. Back then, it was a very impressive plan. They decentralized their drugs and used a decentralization network that was often not prosecutable. Despite all this ingenuity, if you will, the drug dealers nonetheless played a major role in destroying a generation of minority kids and families and themselves. In other words, their skill at selling drugs betrayed them and those around them.

Thai drivers are similar. They are very adept at handling their vehicles on the messed up roads and maneuvering at high speeds while tailgating. But, of course, the death tolls betray their impressive driving ability. The numbers of people maimed permanently altering their lives likely for the worse betray their driving skills. The negative impact to the economy from congestion caused by traffic accidents betrays their driving ability as well.

It's complex, but even when trying to be my absolutely fairest and most objective, there is certainly a very high number of Thai drivers (at least as I have observed) which routinely conduct themselves in ways that any objective traffic engineer or physics professor would deem very dangerous.

It would be interesting to see the break down on autos as compared to bikes.

Then the difference between bike riders with a helmet on and the ones without one.

Also the number of tourists doing the driving as compared to the Thai's.

Easy to say this or that is wrong but show some related facts. Also bear in mind that the emergency response time here for medical help is slow and not always that good any how. Perhaps if it was as good as where many of us come from the death statistics would go way down.

Yes, the statistical breakdown would be very nice to see. I fear, though, that it would be some time before we could really trust the statistics to be reasonably accurate.

Just a word about helmets. Many have said that helmets on motorcycles would make a big impact on keeping the deaths down. I have not studied this kind of thing, but I just don't think that a person has a significantly better chance wearing a helmet if he/she is going as fast as most of these guys go. Sure, it would help, but I just don't know how much. The human body is fragile with or without the helmets unfortunately.

1) Of course traffic engineering is important; that certainly makes sense.

2) Having well thought road regulations is also important.

3) Enforcing said regulations is certainly also important, and having high enough penalties for infractions is important.

BUT, because there is not likely to soon be enough technology employed on our planet's roads to watch over everyone all the time,

4) educating the driving populace is also very important. You can't engineer away pure stupidity/selfishness. No amount of traffic engineering (save for automatic computer driven vehicles) will prevent most of the accidents that occur from, say, tailgating at speeds over 100KM/h. Neither will traffic engineering stop people from going down roads the wrong way (although, true, it may indeed help discourage the behavior).

As for Thai drivers, I agree that many seem to be fairly well adapted to the road conditions here which is to be expected. And, yes, many of them are indeed rather impressive in how they manage to stay alive (thus far). However, I can show you things in any inner city or poverty stricken country that might impress the same.

For instance, drug dealers in the 80s and 90s in NYC were remarkably adept at averting arrest by NYC and federal police. They had all kinds of tricks. They were older and would approach us young kids when they thought police were hot on their trail and would have neighborhood kids (most of us unaware of the danger we were being put in) hold all manner of drugs (and even sell it) until the heat was off of them. Back then, it was a very impressive plan. They decentralized their drugs and used a decentralization network that was often not prosecutable. Despite all this ingenuity, if you will, the drug dealers nonetheless played a major role in destroying a generation of minority kids and families and themselves. In other words, their skill at selling drugs betrayed them and those around them.

Thai drivers are similar. They are very adept at handling their vehicles on the messed up roads and maneuvering at high speeds while tailgating. But, of course, the death tolls betray their impressive driving ability. The numbers of people maimed permanently altering their lives likely for the worse betray their driving skills. The negative impact to the economy from congestion caused by traffic accidents betrays their driving ability as well.

It's complex, but even when trying to be my absolutely fairest and most objective, there is certainly a very high number of Thai drivers (at least as I have observed) which routinely conduct themselves in ways that any objective traffic engineer or physics professor would deem very dangerous.

It is interesting that Thais seem to suspend the compulsion for politeness seen in the language when they get on the road. We were driving into town for lunch as week and Roger (who has been here for 15 years), noted a woman trying to cross the road and he stopped for her. Her reaction was first one in incredulity, then surprise, then wariness that something bad was going to happen. Finally she made eye contact and we motioned for her to cross. But, I don't think that even if all of the farang living here and driving decided to "set an example" that it would change anything and just might cause more accidents.

It took mothers in the U.S. 30 years of hard political fights to get drunk driving laws changed. That is not going to happen here, especially when Thais are willing to turn a 115 cc motorbike into a 4 person family sedan.

I just finished reading a book that discussed this type of thing. The book argues that Thais operate in 3 social circles of increasing indifference. They are: family circle, cautious circle and selfish circle.

Take a peek at: http://www.thingsasi...ies-photos/2704

From the link above

"For example, why can such an otherwise gentle and non-confrontational people be such aggressive drivers? How can they be so compassionate in certain circumstances and so callous in others? And why do English-speaking Thais in the company of an English-speaking foreigner nevertheless insist on speaking Thai?

Hi -

What are your water concerns? You may know all this already, but the reason I ask is because filtration and disinfection are completely different and most cheaper water filtration units (esp counter top models) don't offer much disinfection. If you are concerned with biological and/or chemical issues with the water, most likely you need something that purifies/disinfects your water.

I'm not sure if your Omnipure (http://www.omnipure.com/residential.htm) does that...

For example, many of the very large, shared water purification units in Thailand (like the ones you see in condos) are water purification units which filter and disinfect ... The fact that many see it as a good investment to disinfect the water could be a sign to pay attention to even though the water in BKK is supposed to be just fine under normal (non-flood) circumstances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_purification

Just make sure you're meeting your concerns if they are not only filtration but also the more important disinfection esp with the flood related problems.

Good luck,

Thailand is a country where life is considered cheap and there is no 'nanny' state.

If you are scared by that then don't come, some of us like it this way.

There are risks to living, better to take them and live life to the full, than live in the west and die of boredom.

It is, of course, sad when anyone dies for any reason.

aghhhhhhhhhh

I have driven in Thailand for 6 years now. I think of it as a miracle that I have been unscathed so far. I am reconciled that my luck will not last, though I do all I can to defer that day. I never drive without two hands on the steering wheel. I try never to take my eyes off the road - and that means looking in every direction continuously. Every short local trip (in Chiang Mai, where I stay) runs up a long catalogue of driving indiscretions, any one of which would / should be a bookable offence. I continue to be puzzled by the general behaviour which everyone seems to exhibit on the road here - meaning, it seems to be so much at odds which the lovely and loveable character of so many ordinary Thais. There is absolutely no courtesy ever shown, everyone is hell-bent of getting from A to B at maximum speed, there is no lane discipline, "big cars" have a self-assumed priority over lesser vehicles and often overtake crossing hard dividing lines to do so, forcing you to swerve into inside motor cycle lanes - in the hope that no unfortunate is then overtaking you on the inside - which is also not uncommon, there is very clearly no understanding of even normal common-sense road rules, most people routinely run red lights (at speeds which would impress Sebastian Vettel), etc. I shudder when I see the condition of buses, lorries and pick-up trucks, especially given the speed at which they drive. I am impressed by the night vision which many people have - since they seem to be able to drive without lights well after sundown. I cringe when I see the jam-packed "visa run" mini-vans careering onward to ensure a one-day turnaround at Mae Sai. For me, wiser by dint of my time here, it is a choice of course. But innocent and unassuming should know the risks. Every life is precious.

Read my post above for more information about Thai culture and how their interaction is highly influenced by the perceived importance of that interaction.

If Thai drivers would just treat each other on the road like they generally treat visitors to their homes then the driving situation in Thailand would be a 100 times more safe and courteous. But once most Thais get behind the wheel their whole attitude changes...they are now race drivers.

Mentioning courteous, there is very, very little courtesy displayed on the roads of Thailand for other vehicles and pedistrains....everyone is trying to gain that additional meter and second in where ever they are going regardless of the dangerous vehicle moves and speeds involved to make those gains...you would think most everyone is trying to get to the hospital emergency room...and lord knows you don't want to maintain a safe driving distance from the vehicle ahead of you because someone will gain that meter/second by cuttting into that safe space.

Yeap, Thai drivers should try some driving with courtesy in mind. I doubt they will ever truly care about safety, but maybe they could try being as courteous on the roads as they are in their homes--that's my New Years wish for 2012. I know, my wish has a snowball's chance in hell in coming true.

I just finished reading a book that discussed this type of thing. The book argues that Thais operate in 3 social circles of increasing indifference. They are: family circle, cautious circle and selfish circle.

Take a peek at: http://www.thingsasi...ies-photos/2704

From the link above

"For example, why can such an otherwise gentle and non-confrontational people be such aggressive drivers? How can they be so compassionate in certain circumstances and so callous in others? And why do English-speaking Thais in the company of an English-speaking foreigner nevertheless insist on speaking Thai?

I don't know how the ladies came to the conclusion that statistics are hard to come by:

http://en.wikipedia....ated_death_rate

Many countries look dangerous compared with the UK, which is close to the best in the world at 4 deaths per 100,000 (America is three times worse). Thailand is in line with the global average at around 20 deaths per 100,000 of population.

Those that think Thailand is dangerous need to visit the truly bonkers countries. Having driven through it both ways on the hippy trail to India in the 70s, I was unsurprised to see that Iran's rate is nearly twice that of Thailand. Their macho culture causes them to drive at each other on mountain passes in an oft fatal game of chicken.

Nonetheless, although there are no stats about public transport deaths, I would expect that Thailand's long distance buses are many times more dangerous than their western equivalents (but probably no different from similar developing countries like the Philipines, India, Brazil etc). Also deaths per 100,000 population is a very imperfect measure - what is needed for a reliable measure of how unsafe travel is, would be a death per 100,000 kilos travelled statistic (which would be almost impossible to construct).

Maybe a worldwide study of public transport deaths and/or tourist transport deaths would be a good subject for someone's undergrad project.

I would like to see NCA make some advertising mileage of their apparently better standard of driving. I observe on my drives from Isaan to Bangkok that they are rarely in the 'violently swaying dangerously overtaking' mode, so often favoured by those over-painted VIP wallahs. Perhaps if Thais could be encouraged by the private sector operators to value safety there would be more focus on it. Pigs might fly; when I observed to my wife that I would probably only travel in NCA if I could, she dismissed it with a predictable 'paeng mahk'.

Any undergrad statistics 101 course would caution you against trusting in statistics held up by 3rd world countries, and I believe that's particularly true with respect to those countries with FACE to save.

It's pretty ridiculous to suggest that one would trust the stats. What checks are there to ensure that things are 1) being reported and that they 2) are being reported accurately? Statistics don't come from God; they are man-made. We should be more realistic and think more about it.

Someone mentioned that the problems here in Thailand are many and all interlocking. That is very true.

Perhaps what it all boils down to as well is that life is cheap here. People know that, and they act accordingly. That's not easy to change and it doesn't change simply with better road rules.

This will take a generation to change; there are so many interlocking problems, starting with accountability, all the way to the top. Perhaps if the mothers' campaign could make this a big enough issue, worldwide to really make a dent in tourist dollars, it might get the attention of the government. I suspect that's the only thing that will get anyone's attention. Even then, there is so much money at stake for the vested interests, it would take a really, really big dent. And I agree with a previous poster, that road safety is just one of MANY issues for tourists and locals alike. This is a country in transition and it will be a bumpy ride for a long time.

You'll have someone come out here and proclaim that tourism is actually not that important to Thailand because it's only about 6% of Thailand's GDP You'll also have people proclaim that Thailand's tourism future is with non-Western countries like China ...

But, I do agree that they are pretty naive to think they can change Thailand from within. Actually, that's true for any country. Hit them in the pocket; that's what matters.

I wonder how much (if any) of these police force issues have to do with the fact that there is really not a large tax base in Thailand. Where does the funding for the police force (fire department, etc) come from? It's probably tricky economics to get it to the point where the force is well funded, has attracted better candidates who are paid enough to not worry terribly about supplementing their income etc...

Complex stuff.

But one thing for sure is that taxes are a major issue in informal economies like Thailand.

Nisa,

There were too many quotes, so I took from your post.

The majority of Thai people (and all people) see this incident as a tragedy. I'm sure there are a number of criminals and those with authority problem issues who feel differently but other than that it takes somebody with personal issues not to see this as a tragedy and instead see it as an opportunity to express idiotic and sick feelings of not caring because they were Thai people and/or Thai police. It boggles the mind that a person able to post on this board lacks such little common sense and feelings towards their fellow man.

I'm not sure how anyone could know what a majority of Thai people feel about this event one way or another... I'll assume that it is more likely that we do not know. I agree that disrespect in this tragedy is not helpful, but I think the negativity you're seeing is certainly not due entirely to the people expressing it. What do they say in business about reputation? Reputation matters. And, unfortunately, the police here in Thailand (and many other countries) have a poor reputation. I happen to think much of their poor reputation among Thais and non-Thais alike is warranted.

There are tragic stories in the news all around the globe on a daily basis and nobody says we should get emotionally distraught over the causalities of others but it is just plain sick and troubling to see people get into an almost celebration state to hear of these deaths of policemen because they so ignorantly love to stereotype entire groups in a country and culture they clearly don't understand and have not been able to be accepted into.

I'll be honest with you; this is is a tricky one. Do I care about people in general? Sure, I do. However, when someone does something stupid, I can allow myself to be either 1) sad or 2) angry. There are of course other emotions, but just for the sake of argument, let's assume these two are my options. I will almost always choose to be angry. My reason? Feeling and expressing condolences and all that does not compute in my head/heart. I care more about preventing these terrible events and getting angry and pointing out flaws is what I believe moves humanity forward -- certainly a lot more than does being sad and sorry. That's just my personal opinion. Someone needs to point out the stupidity, the idiocy of it all and of the perpetrators. Humanity has struggled forward because we have generally 'called a spade a spade' so-to-speak.

The US and its citizens have lots of problems that can be talked about all day long for years without scratching the surface but anyone with an ounce of common sense and compassion for their fellow man knows the time to vent about this was not in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 unless you felt these people deserved to die.

I can only speak for the US but it is not about respect in the US when it comes to police, it is generally about fear. It would be a rare instance for a cop to find your stolen TV or catch those who broke in your home in the US and the contact the vast majority of people have with police results in fines for hundreds of dollars for traffic or vehicle violations since the vast majority of police are assigned to write tickets to collect funds to not just pay for the police and court systems but also to support the city they operate. However, the majority of law abiding citizens know when a police officer dies that it is a time to keep your mouth shut about pointing out their faults as it is a dangerous job and they do keep the streets safer by locking up violent criminals ... not much different here beyond the police here are operating in a much less developed nation making them radically under payed and trained with inferior equipment and even more limited ability to legally take strong action against those not complying to a simple request (ie. they cannot beat a suspect with their club or tazer them until they comply to a simple request such as "sit down" as they can in the US)

I can also speak as someone from the US, and yes the police are often feared. Some of that has to do with our propensity toward force and how seriously the law is enforced. In Western nations, indeed one might argue that a certain amount of fear of the institution is required to keep the society orderly. And, I also agree with you that people generally keep their mouths shut when a police officer dies in the US despite the flaws in the system, BUT this is likely to be because generally speaking people trust the system to be mostly good and in their interests. I lived in NYC, and I do trust and respect the work that the police do. They are not all good; they are human! Many fall into the lower education bracket. But, I feel that 99 times out of a 100 I don't have to fear the police if I'm not doing anything wrong. I think that is simply not the case in Thailand. I've heard only questionable things about the Thai police force from all kinds of Thais (educated, not so educated). The institution has a horrible reputation so much so that Thais often don't even get the police involved in various disputes. This contributes greatly to the negativity you see.

Oh, and with respect to statistics, any statistics course would caution a person from trusting statistics in developing economies where many, many things simply go unreported. Would I trust the statistics in the US over those in Thailand? Of course I would, and so should you. Places like Thailand have almost no controls in place to encourage/ensure that things like accident statistics are accurate and with a heavy focus on FACE, their is certainly and potentially often an incentive to even make sure they are not accurate. That is stats 101 stuff. If you are reading any sort of stats about Thailand as reported by Thai authorities, those stats should very much be used a guide to try to get you just an idea of what might be going on. It's certainly rather laughable (academically) to compare stats held up by elite countries (US, Japan, Western Europe, Australia, etc) against those reported by and for developing countries with the aim to compare them.

Do you understand what I'm expressing?

EDIT: Nisa, the thrust of your effort is respectable. Of course, some people do unfairly stereotype and some are hateful etc. But, to make your point in this case, comparing the Thai and US police forces is entirely wrong. It's a convenient argument style and employed often, but for anyone who is honest and perhaps didn't live in all but the absolute worst handful of neighborhoods in the US (South Central & East LA, for example) they would not likely be able to make the 'leap of faith' you are implying to regard the US and Thai police forces as 'similar'. If you live in a half decent city/town anywhere in the US, you are overwhelmingly likely to be just fine with the police force.

There is not a single good soul amongst all politicians in Thailand. I will not vote for anyone unless I see fresh faces; those that are not connected in anyways with present and past politicians.

They are just a product of the people they represent.

+1 -- more or less a reflection of Thai society. Yingluck is rather the epitome of majority Thai values: 1) white face, 2) extraordinary wealth, 3) power, 4) Chinese.

Sorry, but it's at least somewhat true. You can change to fresh faces, and, chances are, all you will have changed are the faces.

EDIT: 5) despite her grisly teeth, quite 'sanuk' if you've seen her in interviews

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Yes, over regulated perhaps, BUT all that regulation is what brings us things like

1) safer food

2) safer buildings and other structures

3) better police protection

4) better property protection

5) better personal injury protection

6) better workplace protection

7) better child protection

8) better education

9) better overall individual liberties

etc

The laws are what made western society great. I don't get down on them too much, but I certainly to empathize with you as to their burden.

I think we passed inflextion point 15 years ago, now the laws are created IMO to protect entrenched interest both corporate and political. You can be too safe, and if you live in a bubble the first germ you get inflected with will kill you. And likely a law will be passed to protect the bubble people from the first germ. Now children can theaten parents with a call to the Gov, do you think children are better behaved in Thailand or the USA?

It should be obvious one can go to far in the name of safety.

USA is number 1 in Obesity and #36 in life expectancy. Yet we spend more than any other country on health care. There is a growing income dispartiy, more people on food stamps than ever before, so something isn't working the way you would expect.

I agree, there are many problems with the US. Indeed, the entire world and all our civilization seems most fragile.

In the US, most issues, though, IMO, you can avoid if you are fortunate enough to have decent $$. Of course, that is true in many parts of world. Give a man enough money, and he can make a home most anywhere ... The big issue for most people in the US will be whether the US can provide as much opportunity to the population as it did historically. Will the many millions of immigrants continue to come for education and to stay which has been one of the greatest successes of the US? Will the government be able to encourage and support financial risk taking/entrepreneurship which was likely the single thing that brought the US so much success over the past couple hundred years? And perhaps almost as important, will the education system in the country renew itself to be more in line with the competition being faced around the world (Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong, perhaps next Beijing)?

What gives me faith (not blind faith) in the US system is that it is endlessly malleable. It can adapt. We openly discuss issues. We elect leaders (most of whom are not always what we needed, but we elect them nonetheless). We have laws for the process of change management which are by-and-large followed rather faithfully. I think the first step is the continuation of the reformation of the primary education systems in the country. That has been happening the last decade or so and has picked up pace. It will not be easy, and there will be missteps, but still what makes America so hopeful is that the culture is not old nor rigid and the population is somewhat fickle making reform and change pretty rapid. Try telling Thailand to change certain things it holds sacred or Greece to stop living rather lazily by European standards... It won't work in those places, at least certainly not as easily.

Interesting to note that, according to this source, the US is said to be still more innovative than the Japanese by 15% but the Japanese win by percentage terms: http://www.nationmas...tes/eco-economy

Someone mentioned Korean massage (the other more sensual kind). I actually like the Korean massage process a bit better. Not necessarily the massage itself, but the sauna before hand. Sitting in a steam sauna is one of the most relaxing things I have experienced. It they could combine a 1) DIY warm/hot/cold shower with 2) a steam sauna room 15 - 30 minutes and then 3) a good Chinese style Tui Na massage for a hour - hour and a half, that would be my preference.

I agree that the pain from Thai massage is very similar to what you get from foam rolling.

I think many posters are getting tied up in their own vision of what English speaking means and why it is required.

Australia, especially Sydney, is extremely multicultural (for better or for worse)... in my 20 year career, very few of my colleagues have been, like me, native English (only) speaking... Many of them would struggle to put together a formal statement, or correspond with a customer in what I would consider appropriate language. In most companies, that would probably preclude them from highest levels of management (C level), but not from senior management, or well paying roles. So passable English, but not perfect English is all that is really required to enable someone to enter and sustain a fulfilling career.

My current company (for only a few more weeks, thanks be to Buddha) is Chinese. It is probably the largest Chinese multinational, and chooses from the top percent of university graduates each year. Here in Australia, 95% of the staff are Chinese on dodgy visas. Whilst obviously well qualified in the Chinese system, near enough to not a single one of them can speak, read, or write in passable English. This does not prevent The Company from putting them in front of CEOs, CxOs, Senior Management of massive companies, because within The Company, their ability to communicate is secondary to their ability to understand the company message and processes (and their ability to be controlled and exploited by The Company). So it would appear that not even passable English skills are core to being able to succeed in business in an English speaking country.

I have met quite a number of (educated) Thais who have taught themselves English, or learnt through short courses for University. Sure their gramma is usually pretty average, and sometimes it takes a bit of work to understand some more abstract concepts. Phone conversations (which exclude non-verbal communications) are difficult, but I do not see their level of English dramatically reducing their employability.

Further, with 70 million people, Thailand has a massive domestic market, that will always be addressed in Thai, and the workforce has limited exposure to foreigners. Tourism is only 6% of GDP, and even then, not all of those people are ‘customer facing’ and require good English skills.

Last point. My brother is a highly educated medical professional, and speaks much closer to ‘The Queen’s English’ than my less educated, bogan, Aussie drawl… He lives in Hong Kong, and The Chinese and Filipino staff find him more difficult to understand than the accent rich speech of his colleague from County Cork in Ireland… which English will we teach the Thai’s???

Cheers,

Daewoo

I agree that their English language ability need not be perfect. Of course, there's no good reason not to strive for perfection.

The multinational scene in Thailand is not too terribly developed although it is getting better. I think that other than for what are essentially sales roles to the Thai local market, multinationals probably often find it difficult to find suitable Thai employees at various levels of the corp, so I think the number 1 benefit of English language ability will not immediately be new job prospects. I think the biggest immediate benefit will be a nation of young people who now have a completely new world of information and knowledge opened to them. It will augment their education in ways the Thai state cannot simply hope to accomplish in the near future.

Oh, we shall teach them the most appropriate English -- American English. The English of the most companies and most people. Not that Southern stuff but more like New Hampshire English.

100% agree with some things, but not all. Have you tried running a biz here? A food cart? Impossible unless you bribe the police, and even then, pretty much impossible. The work rules here are very strict. No so in the US.

As far a competition here, it's no holds barred. Somebody can open up shop right next to you with the exact same name and products. Nothing you can do. Some have done very well here in Thailand, many have not.

I agree the US has gone overboard on rules and regulations, but many are very, very good. Like drunk driving, medical malpractice, food safety, etc.

I think it is likely easier for a Thai to open a business in the USA than for a farang to open a business in Thailand. But the millions of food carts suggest it is quite easy for a Thai to start their own small food business. I think the bribes are just the grease to get things going, and it turns out cheaper and faster.

But the USA has evolved beyond simple bribery to making it part of the system. One has to hire a union worker and pay a minimum amount of hours to carry a ten pound package from your van to a display stand in McCormick Place for an exhibition there.

A friend wanted to open a hot dog stand in Houston, it would cost him $25,000 up front because of all the regulations. Another friend had a small consulting company with less than 50 people, he got sued 4 times in less than 4 years, and he is a very careful CEO / manager. He won all the law suits, but a less skillfull person would have had to pay up. The only one that made money in those situations were the lawyers, and guess who makes the rules in the USA?

Now we have speed traps with camera detectors and $100 – $1000 tickets.

We in the USA we have to hire a lawyer to do virtually any sort of business at all, and anyone with any sort of money has a lawyer on retainer. All of our elected officials are also lawyers.

We don't call it a bribes, we call it rules.

Yes, over regulated perhaps, BUT all that regulation is what brings us things like

1) safer food

2) safer buildings and other structures

3) better police protection

4) better property protection

5) better personal injury protection

6) better workplace protection

7) better child protection

8) better education

9) better overall individual liberties

etc

The laws are what made western society great. I don't get down on them too much, but I certainly to empathize with you as to their burden.

Nah, I much prefer a good Chinese Tui Na massage. The Thai massage is a bit too rough for me as I am not a day laborer or farm hand ...

Actually, never mind. I am signing up with Language Express. The Chula program is a bit too pricey for me at the moment. Thanks

For the OP and others that have a Thai spouse and have lived both in the USA and Thailand, what does your Thai spouse think about the USA?

For those like myself from the USA, Thailand looks exotic, but for a Thai the USA should also look exotic.

My wife liked much of NYC but disliked most the very rapid pace of things. She also very much disliked the attitude of the people where we lived (financial district area downtown). And, although she had a very decent job while in NYC, she disliked being at a cultural and (somewhat) language disadvantage in the US. But, she always says, if we are to make it big, she would want to retire somewhere in California, so I take that as her ultimate preference.

I came to Bangkok from NYC. Met my Thai wife abroad in the US. We don't have kids, so I don't think about the many associated issues, and we are rather young and healthy, so we don't worry about the associated issues there either.

NYC -- Pros for me

Bangkok -- Pros for me

For me, Bangkok is fun and I'm trying to exploit some opportunity here, but in most other categories of living, living in NYC is just splendid. There really is no place like NYC anyway. Diversity of people (Queens has more nationalities and spoken languages than any other city on Earth), diversity of food, liveliness of people (Western style 'walk up to a stranger and strike up a conversation' warmness), quality of goods and services, ability to openly express yourself/views/etc (liberal feel), fall afternoon walk through Central Park -- these are all things I enjoy about NYC.

which level are you on now ? is the fees still 20k a pop ?

It's still ฿25,000 for the five-week, 100 hour course. Although there is a new schedule posted on the website that is somewhat different. Nevertheless, I confirmed the schedule for my Basic 2 course.

Does anyone have any recommendations for other less expensive programs for the "basic" Thai language education? The OP said that in his estimation there might very well be other programs just as good for basic as Chula's program is and for somewhat lesser cost.

Any info is very much appreciated.

Thanks,

The really bad news is if you are successful your business will be copied to death.

Unless the barrier for entry into the particular business is very high. Food is hard because the barrier for entry is so low, and also because there is so much competition. If you business is more complex (like mine is), the barrier for entry is very, very high -- BUT, the risk is that you yourself may not make it due to the same complexity.

Higher risk, potentially higher reward.

Good luck to the OP.

As some posters have stated here, opening a business and running is successfully is, in and of itself, an extraordinarily difficult thing to accomplish. That's true most anywhere. Doing it in a foreign country will not make it any easier.

I think what people think is that they have some kind of advantages due to education or cash able to be laid out or whatever. Some of these things are true, but, like other people here have said, the single most difficult thing most businesses are likely to face here is PEOPLE. Both, employees and customers/clients. It's hard enough trying to understand what motivates our own westerners. Trying to figure out what makes Thais "tick" is another matter altogether.

Sounds like they may be well-schooled, perhaps, but certainly not well-educated...

Other than French, german, Latin, etc, English language also borrow words from Thai language. Farang, Tuk-tuk, Tomyum Khung are a few that I can think off.

These are NOT words borrowed from Thai language. They are Thai words that we all use because if we use their English equivalents, 99% of Thais will not understand because they don't speak English.

Thai: Farang, English: Westerner

Thai: Tuk-Tuk, English: Auto Rickshaw

Thai: Tomyum Khung, English: Hot and Sour Soup

A better example, would be if Westerners started using a Thai word like "grenjai" or "namjai" and incorporated it into the English language because there are no Western equivalents, then that would be an example. But, to my knowledge, there are no words in English adapted from Thai that are in popular use.

Do you have better examples?

Thanks,

How about "satay?" Everyone I know in Chicago knows what that is. Now you might counter that it is a bastardization of "steak," but my reply would be that most Westerners who use that word have no idea and think it is real Thai.

Do you mean:

Satay: which is claimed to be Indonesian in origin

** From Wikipedia **

"Although both Thailand and Malaysia claim it as their own, its Southeast Asian origin was in Java, Indonesia. There satay was developed from the Indian kebab brought by the Muslim traders. Even India cannot claim its origin, for there it was a legacy of Middle Eastern influence.

^[4]"

or

Sauté: which is French

?