xthAi76s

With all respect for every ones opinion about the handling from the government , i would remind us all about that big "'world leading " country .... how they handled the flooding at New Orleans ...., things on the sideline looks always so simplel. to do .......:jap:

What's your point? I see this so often, and it's a weak point every time. How much time did the US gov't have to prepare between the time it hit and the calamity? Also, was the US able to muster a very robust and proper health response? Also, were there constant mixed messages about what was occurring? Also, were there public fighting among elected officials hampering the relief effort, and if so how quickly was it resolved? Also, was there a huge man made component to the NE flooding? Also, has there been a through review of the events (made public) and the resulting learning from past mistakes?

As long as countries are comprised of people, none will be perfect, but what a weak, ill informed opinion it is to compare in the way you have the NE floods with those in Thailand currently.

Can you elaborate on your points?

My advice to tourist, Simply stay away until atleast next year.

There are so many shortages and closures. Tourist only add to the problems.

No detour signs in English and no help from Government officalls

Repairs will take months to get things back in order just like in Phuket years back

your life and safety are really at risk.

Sorry, but I would call that really bad advice. The livelihood for many depends on tourists and much of the tourists destinations happen to not be in the flood zone. if tourism drops, a lot of people suffer.

As for recovery, some things will take time, however, once the water is gone, many places will bounce back into functional shape in a matter of days, not months.

With respect, what is it with people making these statements about people's livelihood?

There are so many things wrong with these statements.

1. Are tourists expendable?

You would have people come over and be put in harms way or face having a terrible, unpredictable time? At the very least, tourist will feel some general malaise in the population as so many people are affected.

2. What of the assumption that all tourists visit Thailand PRIMARILY to support people who rely on tourism??? That's such an odd assumption, man. I love the idea of helping 'people less fortunate', but I have NEVER gone anywhere PRIMARILY because I wanted to support someone who I anticipated was worse off. I mean, how the heck would I even know who's worse off? I mean absent someone's financial statement, I can't know if they are worse off or better off, right?

3. Just because some tourist spots are not in the flood zone at present, is that the only variable you would use to judge the feasibility of a trip? I know it can't be. The crisis is still unfolding and bearing down on the political and economic capital of the country. There are food and water sanitation and distribution issues. What happens IF the main airport gets hit and if a bunch of tourists need to get out? At a bare minimum, it will be a nightmare for them. What of the potential health risks with this disgusting, fetid water?

Would you tell someone you love or care for very deeply to visit Thailand now or to hold off until some time in the future?

Tourists are NOT expendable, and I tire of seeing people encouraging them to come here while this absolute mess of a national disaster is unfolding.

For gods sake.........

You could have caught a cold on the plane............

It's a generally .3 to 1 metre flood not the bubonic plague.

... If you were making an attempt at humor, I am probably too tired to get it, so my apologies in advance. But, if you were trying to make a serious point, then I'm not sure how anything you posted is relevant to my post.

1. I'm not a tourist, so the post wasn't about me.

And

2. If you're implying that the risk associated with coming here is similar to the risk of riding in an airplane, I'd have to take your word for it, as I'm not trained to perform such a statistical calculation. But, it's still irrelevant assuming most tourists also do not make such calculations and instead compare the perceived risk or relative risk -- like 'did it seem safer last year when there wer no major catastrophic floods?' or 'doesn't it seem less risky to go when all this is cleared up'?

My advice to tourist, Simply stay away until atleast next year.

There are so many shortages and closures. Tourist only add to the problems.

No detour signs in English and no help from Government officalls

Repairs will take months to get things back in order just like in Phuket years back

your life and safety are really at risk.

Sorry, but I would call that really bad advice. The livelihood for many depends on tourists and much of the tourists destinations happen to not be in the flood zone. if tourism drops, a lot of people suffer.

As for recovery, some things will take time, however, once the water is gone, many places will bounce back into functional shape in a matter of days, not months.

With respect, what is it with people making these statements about people's livelihood?

There are so many things wrong with these statements.

1. Are tourists expendable?

You would have people come over and be put in harms way or face having a terrible, unpredictable time? At the very least, tourist will feel some general malaise in the population as so many people are affected.

2. What of the assumption that all tourists visit Thailand PRIMARILY to support people who rely on tourism??? That's such an odd assumption, man. I love the idea of helping 'people less fortunate', but I have NEVER gone anywhere PRIMARILY because I wanted to support someone who I anticipated was worse off. I mean, how the heck would I even know who's worse off? I mean absent someone's financial statement, I can't know if they are worse off or better off, right?

3. Just because some tourist spots are not in the flood zone at present, is that the only variable you would use to judge the feasibility of a trip? I know it can't be. The crisis is still unfolding and bearing down on the political and economic capital of the country. There are food and water sanitation and distribution issues. What happens IF the main airport gets hit and if a bunch of tourists need to get out? At a bare minimum, it will be a nightmare for them. What of the potential health risks with this disgusting, fetid water?

Would you tell someone you love or care for very deeply to visit Thailand now or to hold off until some time in the future?

Tourists are NOT expendable, and I tire of seeing people encouraging them to come here while this absolute mess of a national disaster is unfolding.

Glad this was the short version....nearly nodded off !

Yeah, it's a really difficult topic to keep short. But by your admission, my thanks for reading the whole thing!!!

... this is the kind of topic that really warrants a long, and well-thought response, but nobody likes to read long posts from commenters, so I'll keep it short and try to hit the major points. And, please, I am not of the bashing Thais and Thai culture for the heck of it. I happen to think that there are astoundingly beautiful things about Thais and Thai culture, and that is much of the reason I live here. However, I am also not a push over or an apologist, and I will call things like I see them. And, no, I won't leave just because I don't like some things. I'll stay, and continue to be successful, and largely happy and complain when I choose to do so like others because --- it's my right to do so

I am very thankful that Thais are writing pieces like this, and I hope they are writing them in Thai and getting them in front of other Thais.

For some reason, Thai culture is marketed to the non-Thai world's populations as having certain positive characteristics and perhaps as having these characteristics more profoundly than many other cultures in the world, and I think after living here for some time, many foreigners tend to think this is perhaps not so. I see so much selfishness and indifference every day that it makes me wonder how they've done such a good job marketing themselves to the world as being the very opposite.

Q: Are Thais uniquely caring for one another more than other nations/cultures?

A: No, I don't think so, and here's the why.

While there are OF COURSE millions of good deeds done everyday in this beautiful country, I second a noticing of all the selfishness that the writer noted. There are all kinds of acts of selfish behavior in Thai society (and Asian society in general with the very notable exception, perhaps, of Japan).

Egalitarianism vs. Survival of the Fittest

My belief is that actually egalitarian societies are far more caring than ones that are the opposite.

Thailand is very far from egalitarian in its governing and in its socioeconomic structure. I can make the case for this argument, but I hope my statement can be largely agreed with without my needing to do so. By the very nature of a society that is more inline with survival of the fittest, people must feel the need to make sure they are OK before trying to think of someone else. And, the truth is that most of the society here is largely poor and life is not easy (despite their 'thousand' smiles -- which I will comment on briefly later).

To illustrate this with an example, think of taxes. I always ask my wife why infrastructure is so beaten all the time. Just today, I even asked about why the beach we're on (and many others) are so filthy. There are of course many reasons, but one reason for these deficiencies is because there is not really a tax base comprised of large numbers of citizens for whom paying 'societal' taxes are compulsory. People will of course pay for their trash to be picked up, but damned if they pay for someone else's; not in this survival of the fittest country.

Oddly enough, the notions of personal liberty/freedom and egalitarianism are uniquely Western European -- perhaps most famously exemplified in the USA, and in nations taking after these Western European values, if you really analyze the society more closely, I think you will conclude that the ability to, for example, give to someone freely (taxes) for which you may not ever benefit directly (but often do indirectly, of course) is one of the markers of a very caring society.

Indifference vs. Accountability

As we watch the news broadcasts, many of us are bombarded with images of Thais sometimes in their hundreds handing each other sandbags. We often hear some kind of unifying music of burden playing in the background, and we see the often smiling faces of Thais who at first glance appear unaffected by the calamity around them.

The marketers want non-Thais AND Thais alike to believe that what we are observing is the uniquely caring, helping, sacrificial society of the Thais. Unfortunately, I have another idea about this.

I am reminded of my time growing up in tough innercity NYC and certain groups of people who had/have much in common with the Thais at large. Words/phrases chosen to describe us are things like: strong, persevering, united during times of crisis, warm, etc. They struggled during the time of slavery by singing uniting songs of burden, laughing, dancing and spent great effort trying to maintain throughout the society and the world that they could handle it. After all, what else could they do at the time? Oh, that's right -- they fought and eventually surely improved their ability to chose their 'fate'.

Now, apply this example to the majority of Thais. They pass each other sand bags, smile on and off camera, donate money and supplies to each other and generally perform all kinds of wonderful, beautiful acts of kindness for their fellow man. But, I think largely live lives of indifference. Where is their fight for any number of things? Where is their demanding of 1) better governing, 2) better equality among their peoples, 3) the destruction of the self-loathing psychology (pseudo caste system they imported from Indian culture) that forces millions of them to believe they are ill able to live happily or move up their station in life as a result of their 'darker' skin, 4) the 'converse' admission of the slow and ongoing co-opting of their culture by the Chinese, etc etc etc.

Where is the fight; the passion for themselves and their fellow man? That is caring. Putting yourself in harms way to effect positive change in your society is caring. Passing sandbags 'necessary' often as a result of your indifference.

... As another example, some surveys suggest that most Thais believe corruption is OK so long as they benefit in some way. Where is the accountability? Surely, they cannot wonder why their leaders so obviously and grossly reflect this mentality, executing it ruthlessly ala their Co-opt'ers the Shinawatras.

Thais are many wonderful things, but being 'uniquely' caring is unfortunately, not a hallmark of Thai society.

... to be continued ...

Thailand has some amazing people handling a disaster situation with grace, caring for each other, and kindness. If you watch any of the Thai TV news showing the people moving their children and only possessions they have in a tub you will still see some smiles and humor. It is Amazing Thailand. They deserve our praise.

My friend, anyone can smile on TV -- esp if it is culturally expected. Smiling when in trouble can be a way to pretend as though you are unaffected by what is going on around you. The North Koreans do the same thing. Food for thought.

Not all all smiles are as they might seem at first glance. Look deeper.

EDIT: To be clear, I think many Thais are quite strong and persevering (no more or less than any other people) -- we have more in common than we do not -- but those smiles mean various things. Unlike in much of Western cultures, you don't look at the mouth or the whole of the face in Asian countries to ascertain the particular emotion. Instead, you look at the eyes. If you focus on the people's eyes and on their dispositions away from noticeable view, you will get a much better sense for their feelings.

You can not let it be, huh?! Teary eyed, yes! Maybe because she feels sad for her herself...but maybe...just maybe, she also feels sad for people dieing, drowning, loosing their possessions, being in horrible situations....

It is called "compassion"- something that most of you are obviously lacking!

Thanks for a bit of decency. This flood is no more a political failure than the flooding of the Mississippi River or Australia earlier this year. Some posters are just self centered mules.

Neither of you quite get it. I don't believe anyone is faulting Yingluck for feeling compassionate. They are faulting her for her public bahavior. It is one thing to feel compassion, but it is quite another to let your followers down by acting like a child every time something doesn't go the way you want. Leaving aside ALL politics, when Ms. Y decided to accept her post as leader she should have also accepted that she must act as a leader. How many times have you heard it? "With power comes responsibility." In this case Ms. Y has a responsibility to do all she can to help the people of Thailand, and that means helping to give them strength through a crisis. One leads by example.

Look, if you decide you want to be super-famous, then you have to be brain dead to not understand that doing so literally insures that you give up a private life. You can't have it both ways. And when you decide to become a leader, then you must understand that you give up the right to teary-eyed displays, and all sorts of other behavior that ordinary people feel entitled to. Does anyone here feel they want generals running their army who cry in front of their troops from fear? It doesn't make a fart's worth of difference whether they're afraid or not; such displays are totally unacceptable because they cut into the morale of the troops ... and soldiers will die.

Hey, Ms. Y can bawl as loudly and as long as she wants in private. If on the other hand if Ms. Y prefers to have a good public cry whenever there's a problem, then perhaps she should think about changing her profession. Good leaders have compassion, but good leaders do not appear to be fearful cry babies. It is not just embarassing, it is demoralizing. How many people in this kingdom have just lost everything and are now entertaining suicidal thoughts? You've seen the same statistics that I have. How many of these unfortunates are helped by having a leader that shows by her behavior that this problem is simply overwhelming? Not many, I'm sure.

So make up your mind, Ms. PM, and either act the leader, or pass the job on to someone that can handle it. You asked for this position - some would even say you participated in deceptions and dishonesty to gain it - and now this nation needs someone in it that can lead. A nation is depending on you.

Excellent.

Like some here, I immediately transfixed on the 'teary-eyed' bit as well. (I did read the rest of the article).

There are a couple things going on here that at least some of us know about.

Crying or being teary-eyed can be a political play. If used strategically, it can be interpreted as a showing of compassion, sincerity, empathy, etc.

BUT, she has done this several times now! It starts to look like weakness. Leaders of nations don't have the luxury of crying in front of the public on a regular basis whether or not they are sincere.

Was over at the border of Klong Toei and Phra Khanong by ONNUT BTS station, and things are still just fine / NOT flooding.

Realized that the polling feature is lacking as it cannot allow people to enter their own choices and I certainly cannot list every place on Earth that people might go. Would be great to have a feature that allows voters to add their own options.

Thanks; sorry for the bother.

Well written and well reasoned piece. I'll be following him.

www.facebook.com/pavinchachavalpongpun

Is "Meenburi" mentioned in the article the same place as the I've seen spelled "Minburi"?

Thanks

---------------

Yes, that what they mean.

The spelling got scrambled in converting from Thai characters to English letters I suspect.

Or also sometimes Min Buri.

(similar sound in Thai)

Thanks alot

Is "Meenburi" mentioned in the article the same place as the I've seen spelled "Minburi"?

Thanks

Unfortunately, Thai script can not easily be transliterated (romanised or converted to English looking characters) so this will come up time and again. There are a number of different transliteration systems and it depends on the system and the person how it is "converted". If you want to be confused you will care about it.

True, but Thai pronunciation -- not the nutty script -- could fairly easily be converted into a logical Romanised system using a logical phonetic system such as that of the Spanish language. Somebody with linguistic skills could fairly quickly create a much better Romanisation for the Thai language than now exists. The only trouble would be getting everyone to chuck out the old systems and use it -- a Herculean task which ain't gonna be done.

Didn't see this until after I made my first reply.

I am very much into language and have studied several. Just about everyone had successfully transliterated their languages into others (including English). There is no technical reason it can not be done. The problems with Thai are mostly that effort has not been made in this area. The Japanese use a separate phonetic script (katakana) for foreign "borrowed" words, the Koreans essentially redid their entire writing system (which used to be purely Chinese script) to the current one they have which is said to be one of the most phonetic in the world. It can be done if there is a will.

Anyway, it is just confusing sometimes. Most of the time there is no reason to care, but when there is an emergency, it could be an inconvenience or worse.

Is "Meenburi" mentioned in the article the same place as the I've seen spelled "Minburi"?

Thanks

I am pretty sure it's the same place. I've seen it spelled both ways in several places and know of no other place with a similar name.

Thank you! Not ranting at all, but I really do wish Thai was consistently transliterated to English. Standards are esp useful in a disaster.

Cheers

Is "Meenburi" mentioned in the article the same place as the I've seen spelled "Minburi"?

Thanks

Actually: no I don't think you are joking! If you were, this post had to be at least a little bit funny!

But let me ask you another question...and don't worry, you don't have to answer, as the the question is rethorical:

do you get any kind of joy or satisfaction out of your constant re- runs of the same cynical remarks?

Not only you, but...all of you?

A close friend asked me to post this:

I can't speak for others, especially since the question wasn't directed at me, but I find that repeating myself many many many many many many times is a great income earner.

Now some people might say you cannot make money out of posting on internet boards and spamming Thailand's major newspapers with nonsensical news (I am am not going to return leave Thailand etc etc).

I have an answer for that.

It's called VOLUME. I am able to churn out infantile and ill thought out suggestions to the government on any number of subjects, ranging from cups of sick, to pen nice pumps, to advice for government toilet tsar "Sompoo Turddee".

You have no idea how many words I can write, claiming I could slit a cat's throat, screw a goat, or slice open a wild snake, and make a winter coat.

The volume of coverage covers my overhead, but the real profit is going to come from my lucrative new business of pen nice pumps. From Korea.

I demand to be heard, I demand you read my posts, and that volume, my friend, is where the big money is.

As Thailand's leading entrepreneur, most successful businessman ever, most wisest counsel and most definitely not involved with any of that red shirt group (I was just ringing in 3 times a week to check that someone was moving my car every 3 hours to avoid paying parking at Paragon), I demand that you read and listen to every thing I say.

If I don't say it myself, I will get my red shirt minions, er, people I don't know or support, to say it for me. My sister is a bit silly; she's what I like to call a 'silly clone' I can get her to say my wisest ideas. I have my A team; and my Mr T is Plodprasob, and just like the A team, my bunch of renegades like HP, which is where the idea of 1000 boats came from.

After all, the motor boat idea may be really really dumb when there is 1 boat....but as anyone knows, just because an idea is dumb, if you make it large enough, it will cease to be dumb. It will become really smart.

Which is why, as Thailand's richest man representing the poor, and as a super rich billionaire I am willing to donate exactly 3 (three) pen nice pumps from Korea. everyone says Korea is hot right now, and Rain is big; well I can tell you from my lair in Dubai, I can see that's lies; Korea is actually quite cold. But anyway the pen nice pumps are yours if you need them.

I must be heard, I must keep talking I must keep front of mind, as my friend Robert says, if I don't ohmigod my BFF Jatuporn and my former BFF Jakapop Penkair might actually start running stuff. And as anyone knows, I am the only one who knows how to 'soap the contree ploblem'

I am sending this via my close friend, him good man, Stevero because let's face it, you lot are lost without my wise counsel. And also, because I want to write a movie, and right now, I don't know how it will finish. I am thinking that it ends with me being very rich. And you being poor.

Bye.

OK, this if funny as hell. Thanks !!

Stupid is: believing a military ship is going to solve Thailand's present problems.

Stupid is: believing a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier task force is unable to provide substantial resources in a multitude of ways to lessen the suffering during Thailand's present problems.

.

+1

We should send over some FEMA guys to help out....

You are joking, aren't you? Read this.

"After being roundly criticized in a slew of media, congressional and government reports, the Federal Emergency Management Agency's internal watchdog Friday returned its own verdict on the handling of Hurricane Katrina: The criticism against FEMA is largely deserved.

In a hefty 218-page report, the Department of Homeland Security's inspector general writes that the federal government and FEMA received "widespread criticism for a slow and ineffective response to Hurricane Katrina."

"Much of the criticism is warranted," Inspector General Richard L. Skinner writes.

The report gives an account of FEMA's recent history and response to Katrina, covering ground that has been well-plowed in recent months, although adding some details.

It describes manpower problems, a decline in planning for natural disasters as attention focused on possible terrorist scenarios, and confusion over the roles and responsibilities of officials in responding to disasters."

It would seem that the Americans are no better than the Thais in circumstances like this.

Once again with the 'Americans are no better' nonsense.

I've not seen any post here touting the Americans as perfect at handling mother nature. In fact, I've not seen such a claim made about any nation/government as such claims would be rather silly.

Now that the above is out of the way, there are a couple of pretty significant differences between these two disasters that you might agree with. They are the following:

1) The US had VERY LITTLE time with the events of Katrina. Certainly not more than a month as is the case here in Bangkok.

2) The US has a system in place -- one that you have pointed out here -- whereby criticisms (even SELF-criticisms) are allowed and can be learned from which is at least in some part due to a lacking of the childish, archaic notion and the misuse of 'face' here in Thailand.

So, it would stand to reason that FEMA could very well be much better off as a result of the events of Katrina.

Nobody is going to perfect when the world turns itself upside down. But, it's pretty interesting that so many await opportunities to degrade US contributions to the world and esp in humanitarian missions. Is it wrong to help or not?

If you want to criticize the US so badly, pick the proper topics and have the correct references and arguments. There are a whole host of things the US can do better, and everyone already knows that -- because the only alternative thinking would be to suggest that the US is perfect. We all got it. Let's move on from it, and criticize the Thais for, among many other things, their handling of their disaster & for their inability to 1) accept responsibility or 2) learn from or accept outside criticism. That's what we're talking about here, I believe.

I would be entirely unsurprised if the agenda behind this alleged rejection was to further undermine the current government. Of course the US government would never interfere like that, so maybe I am being paranoid. Possibly the Thais looked at the US efforts in Katrina and said "Thanks, but no thanks"?

BTW, if you want to look for examples of government's rejecting needed aid, look no further than the USA:

Katrina aid from Cuba? No thanks, says U.S. America welcomes foreign help, except from an old Cold War foe

http://www.msnbc.msn...thanks-says-us/

That was an offer of 1100 urgently needed English speaking doctors for Katrina. Hate to break it to you, but Thailand is far from the only nation that is worried about 'face'.

Looking at all these responses on this thread and others, so many people report these kinds of "well the US did the same thing"-style arguments. Yes, the US has refused certain foreign aid before, but, in the example you're pointing out here, don't you think that 1) the richest country in the world, with 2) the absolutely best trained doctors (whether US or foreign born) could and did organize a very robust response without the aid of other nations? The answer is "yes".

Can you make the argument for Thailand currently as to their ability to organize a robust response to the flooding? The answer is "no". And, therein lies the 'different', no? Two different disasters; two different abilities to respond. So, while your statement is true in the form of: IF A THEN B , it is NOT true in the form of: THEREFORE IF B THEN A.

Why do so many people enjoy criticizing the US in this matter? It's strange.

Thailand doesn't need major help and being seen to do so would be more than losing face, it would affect the country's international standing - credit, investment the baht etc - they didn't ask for aid at the time of the tsunami and they won't ask now. They have ample capital reserves anyhow.

the only aid they may ask for is in some specialist areas........ engineering, dykes, medical advice.

What would they do with a US ship?

They certainly have not turned away any monetary donations from various nations including the US.

Also, the capital reserves that they have will be seriously impacted if/when some of the large Japanese industrial firms either

1) demand not only

a) full repayment (perhaps in form of capital gains taxes reduction) for damage done by the floods or

b ) further long term economic policies/favors relatively disadvantage to Thailand OR

2) pull out from the country all together which seems a possibility for some.

EDIT: readibility

Looks as though the Japanese firms (and others presumably) are not happy with the way the current administration has handled the crisis.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45009767/

+1 for those of us who think the government has failed miserably. Time will tell and the government's next actions in appeasing these large firms will help determine how much economic damage results from this mismanagement.

I get really fed up with all these Thaivisa pundits blaming Yingluck, as if Abhisit could have done any better. In a situation like this a government, any government, has to rely on its scientific advisers, and Thailand lacks true scientists at the level needed to influence governments. I am sure there are young meteorologists, hydrologists, geologists, who can see how to deal with these problems but they are too low as yet in the Puyai pecking order to have any influence.

I agree. It is well to remember that this flood is a fifty-year weather event in Thailand. Few countries can afford to build sufficiently against fifty year events. The US had an eighty year flood from the MIssissippi this in May of this year. Management systems routinely (and catastrophically) fail under such conditions.

Your statement and the one you replied to are arguing two different points which are not closely related. Your comment on economics; the previous one on management and necessary expertise. Both ideas, however, are lacking in their ability to address the issue which most commenters, the UN and several international water works engineering firms suspect which is that there is at least some possibility that the bulk of this crisis was due to 1) mismanagement of the dam water levels (essentially gambling) and 2) the generally agreed upon observation that there are all sorts of problems within and between the government agencies charged with helping mitigate the crisis. Some of those are the following:

1) government / army bad blood

2) academia / government bad blood -- which for instance had professors from Thammasat uninvited to an important, high-level meeting with the government to discuss academic strategies because certain professors had criticized other flood mitigation efforts

3) the weaknesses related to the tendency for a need for consensus building during a rapidly evolving crisis

4) the many contradictory, fragmented statements released by various government agencies

5) government agencies (not all, but many) difficulty or unwillingness to provide information openly, censoring any organizations that try to do so (under the guise of protecting people from panic) -- eg. Thaiflood.com / FROC

etc.

These are people / ego problems. Sure, there are engineering problems, but we'll have to wait for the UN investigation and any others like it to know what portion of this may have been due to simply being unable to 1) engineer sufficiently using only resources in Thailand or 2) spend the required cash to purchase the engineering required for such an event.

** I had to delete some of our conversation because of the quotes limitation issue. **

I agree with much of what you're saying in your post. I agree with your point on not inciting panic, but I cannot allow that to be an excuse for the poor information flow from them. If it'd happened in the US, I'd be making the same criticism. I also agree that our forum ranting probably has minimal positive impact on the situation -- perhaps other than to at least give us some indication as to what other people are thinking (no matter how correct or incorrect). Personally, it's also a way for me to let off some of the steam of anxiety. I've been in limbo for weeks not really knowing what to do.

Instead of writing 'educated Thais', I should have written 'some educated Thais' as it would have been much appropriate. I also know a decent number of them, and the ones I'm closest to, when asked for an opinion on matters, have generally expressed dissatisfaction with the government's efforts. If I make no effort to encourage them to offer an opinion, they almost never say anything to me or my wife. I think that has a bit to do with the culture here. There also seems to be somewhat of a reluctance to talk to 'outsiders' about sensitive topics. I think you can agree that this kind of behavior is present and normal in most any society to varying degrees.

Yes, there are indeed MANY things I like about Thailand and the Thais, but I never fully understand why people regularly bring this topic into such discussions as these. Certainly my love of many parts of Thai culture does not impact one way or another my criticisms of what's going on. So, for me, personally, I try not to simply rant on and on about this and that because it does tend to paint someone as just being generally displeased with their place in the world, but that is me. Others have different experiences and motivations which is fine. I am not here to judge (at least not today)

Anyway, I'm certainly not defending any bickering, but I still think my original reply to the other poster stands along with some of your points. I don't think we really disagree on much. You simply seem to be pointing out that the bickering is not very helpful to you. Not to me either, other than the occasional laugh.

I am sooooo tired of reading the same crap every day about how the government is inept and how everything their doing is wrong or they are not doing enough to make things right. Yet nobody that criticises the government has any0suggestions of how to do things better. It is so easy to criticise yet very difficult to make possitive suggestions of how things could be improved. It almost makes me tired of following this forum!!!

There is much negativity, but there are also MANY suggestions that I have seen on a number of dozens of threads. Look more carefully.

What we are experiencing with all this flooding is a major natural disaster and it is difficult for anyone can say with 100% confidence that this will happen or that will happen. Hence, the government is trying to tell people what to do to avoid significant problems and dangers, but is isn't easy. There are simply too many variables to predict correctly. I think it is better if all we farangs just shut up and let the government try to do it's best to resolve the problem. After all, we are guests in this country! If there are any good ideas on how to improve the situation, send those ideas to the government and see if they will accept your suggestion and try to improve the situation. Otherwise, it does absolutely no good to continuously berate the government and talk about, in your opinions, their ineptitude. They are trying to resolve a problem that hasn't happened in at least 50 years. Let's not also forget that Thailand is still a third world country and is not a UK, USA, Australia or any other western European country, with experienced democratic governments and lots of talent to draw up to solve a significant problem. So give them a break! They are trying their best to resolve this issue as quickly as they can.

Actually, nobody really knows just what percentages of this crisis to attribute to 1) nature/rain, 2) mismanagement of the dams/dykes systems -- keeping certain ones at 100% capacity as long as possible, 3) poor engineering of the damns and dykes -- like EARTHEN dykes, for example, 4) sabotage by various citizens of damns/dykes -- which was reported on the news. The UN (not that they are anywhere near perfect) is investigating, but the prelim report from them attributes most of the blame to #2 above...

The government has NOT reported a whole lot of useful information to the people. My wife is a very well educated Thai, speaks and reads Thai and has complained that there has been a glaring lack of credible information from the government. NOBODY who is reasonable would expect a government to be able to always completely avert natural disaster. I think most of humanity is still in agreement that we have not mastered the Earth this degree as of yet, BUT what people do EXPECT and DESERVE are very basic things that most of us probably learned in grade school or at least college or in our professional lives. We expect to have some idea (doesn't have to be perfect) of 1) Who -- is helping in the effort and what their responsibilities are, 2) What -- is happening (reporting on it often) & What might happen, for instance if plans for mitigation fail, & 3) When (precisely to the minute) things are coming to pass -- like, if the government's plans fail. This government has done an absolutely abhorrent job, almost juvenile at basic project/disaster management.

And, who cares that they are not a first world country? Even first world countries make similar mistakes (sometimes). Does that mean we should all just quietly feel sorry for them (and us, for those of us who live here in Thailand)? That's a pretty convenient way to live, isn't it? It would be much easier to have such an attitude if I had absolutely no empathy for the plight of the Thai people, didn't live here and didn't have anyone at all that I love or deeply care about here.

Also, regarding comments about how Suphanburi has not suffered any flooding, at the expense of it's neighboring provinces, that is simply a statement by uninformed persons. I drove around Suphanburi yesterday and found most of the rice farm areas completely flooded with water. Also, many of the small towns near the Tha Chin River are totally inundated with flooding. So for someone to claim that Suphanburi has avoided any flooding situation is simply ignorance on the part of the claimer. What needs to be realized is that Suphanburi does not lie along the banks of the Chao Praya River. It is these other provinces, like Nakhor Sawan, Chai Nat, Singburi, Ang Thong, Ayutthaya, etc., through which the Chao Praya River flows, that are inundated with flooding because they surround the massive overflowing river. Suphanburi can only have flooding from the overflow of the Tha Chin River. And currently, that river is overflowing it's banks all along its route, causing significant flooding to Suphanburi. I would estimate that more than 70-80% of the rice farms in Suphanburi are already flooded. What is different in Suphanburi, from other provinces which have significant flooding, is that Suphanburi has built it roads significantly higher than the land of either side of the road. Hence, when there is flooding in the farmland, it doesn't necessarily flood the roads. Hence the major roads though the province are still open and usable. And perhaps we should all be thankful for that since the current only way north of Bangkok is through Nakhon Pathum and Suphanburi. Thanks to those smart enough to build roads significantly higher than the potential flood level of the farmland adjacent to the major highways for making this possible.

All in all, complaining is an important part of any progressing society. Sure, us foreigners like to complain. Most of us come from societies where we our civilizations have crawled and clawed and fought and argued their way into being. Thais are complaining as well. I cannot read Thai, but my wife can and points out videos and links for me to look at and she translates. The educated Thais are mad as hell, although they would not tend to express it so openly as us 'westerners'. They have MUCH to be angry about. People needed/need basic information as to what may happen, when it might happen and what to do if it happens. They are getting very little of this. I STILL don't know what precisely is going on, and my wife and I have our eyes and ears glued to every source we know of. That's a problem.

For anyone who understands Thai:

(video of THAI guy ranting on many of the same points made by people here. there have been plenty of others.)

Cannot we go back to what the ordinery Thai accepts,election time,I will sell my vote.Can an educated Thai tell me what it takes to change the physche in this country.,because it totally confuses me,bar the money.I have been here 9 years ( I now have a beautiful daughter but I am fearful for her future as this country has gone backwards).Before all you farang experts slang me off,I came here with the best intentions ( Love to rub it in but I am very fiancially secure).Not enough time to plead my case (but as I said lucky enough to have money,and by the way I still own a house in the UK).For those discerning people,I worked for my money there and have never made a penny here.it would be great to get an inteligent comment for a change.

I think it will take education and especially education on the concept of personal liberty (a more historically Western concept) for Thais to get themselves out of the funk. A majority of the populace will need to feel confident that each individual has inherent worth no matter his/her original station in life.

I think the other thing they will require is a rethinking or re-executing of the concept of 'face'. I was talking to my wife about this over the past couple days. To sum (although I'm aware it's quite a complex topic) 'face' can be used for good -- like perhaps the Japanese / South Koreans and their culturally enforced work ethics which teach them to gain 'face' and to protect it through hard work, sacrifice etc -- or it can be used for bad -- unfortunately, like Thailand where 'face' is often not really earned honorably at all and is rather often 'won' by default or bought, for example, and which is protected at all costs even in the face of true honor lost due to some wrong doing.

These two things are good starts, but I don't think this is an our lifetime kinda thing. I would anticipate it happening pretty slowly. I'm sure you'll impart the right balance of knowledge to your daughter; good luck.