xthAi76s

If you search around in the forums, you will no doubt find an endless array of similar topics.

Since I seem to be among the first batch of responders, I will say that ...

This is the short story version.

Yes, the Thai educational system and power bodys encourage Thais to be very proud of their culture and to diminish or even altogether ignore other cultures. There is certainly an 'us and them' system of thinking often employed here.

However, if you look at history, you find this most anywhere. Notable current examples: USA, Germany, UK, Greece, Japan, China, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Egypt ...

This topic is actually too complex to be informed in one spot, so I recommend checking out the following links if you want to really understand this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaification

http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/issue/issue2/article_251.html

Out of curiosity, what makes you ask this question?

Thanks,

Wow, how delusional. Would the 'highly' educated spend time learning Thai instead of Chinese, English, Japanese, Korean, etc? "Education hub"?! I can't even encourage my fingers to type what I feel. These guys are completely nuts. "Similar to what China has done"? Thailand is not China. They are not similarly positioned at all. People don't want to learn Thai. And, Thailand does not treat outsiders well, by and large. Cambodians and Vietnamese learning Thai? I mean, maybe, if they are Chinese immigrants -- like has always been the case. Who else, the laborers who themselves probably can't even speak their own languages well? I don't know. Doesn't add up. There is almost 0 worth in speaking Thai. Even in Thailand, one could argue that you are better off if you speak English (if you speak only one language).

Where would Thailand be without the Chinese? Who knows.

Where would the world be without them. Its basically Huwei with ZTE dominating the world now.

Hmmm... Well, I meant my comment more broadly (sort of off-topic) with respect to Thailand. Like, "where would the Thais and Thailand be without the historical Chinese dominance in industry?". But, yes, the Chinese are doing a wonderful job on the tech scene at present. Cisco is probably still reigning champion but their growth has slowed in recent times, and, of course, the Chinese market has essentially been off-limits for a number of years as they've grown their own industries. But, those are other topics altogether.

Thailand, and its technology landscape -- hardly interesting at all.

Why do I see a new round of law suits and fights over who gets the money.

Especially since DTAC main shareholder, Telenor, has the most know-how on 4G of all local companies. I am frankly amazed that this is starting so soon.

IIRC, Norway had the first commercially operational 4G network in the world.

Sorry, the "G"s don't really mean all that much. They are relative to what came before them. Japan and South Korea have been having the fastest and most reliable networks with the highest traffic for years now. Most people in Japan and South Korea have faster access to their mobile phones than people in the West have to their homes. I know the Scandinavian countries are also typically pretty high up there as well, but in terms of subscribers and speed, nothing approaches the technology in Japan and South Korea that can handle similar load. Scandinavian countries have high broadband adoption but have pretty tiny populations.

http://www.cnngo.com...hristmas-954915 (2010, 75 Mbps max to phones)

http://micgadget.com...work-for-japan/ (2011, in the works a 110 Mbps max to phones, with the world's highest number of network subscribers)

The most interesting thing is that the Chinese star companies Huawei and ZTE are helping build this new state of the art network.

Where would Thailand be without the Chinese? Who knows.

EDIT: check out the attached graphic from 2009, I believe. Nothing compares to Japan with a speed -- price/performance/subscriber load consideration.

[in my experience people in Taiwan are generally polite and hospitable, unlike their mainland brethren. I put it down to a fairer civic society with more respect for the individual.

SC

I vote for Japan.. :jap:

Yeah, +1. Better in most any possible category.

Good with the bad.. it all a balance.. what did you really expect those kids in the internet cafe to say... what if it was a thai guy who went into an internet cafe on western outskirts of Sydney....... I daresay he'd be lucky to come out in one piece....

Very Good point - 2 weeks before we left the UK my son - 13 - was beaten up in a racially motivated attack.

This was in a small town in South Oxfordshire where he had lived and gone to school all of his young life.

Amongst bruises and a few cuts he also had the word ' Paki C*unt' scrawled on his face.

He looks more European than Thai - but is no doubt different to the usual kids , and different isn't appreciated in the UK these days.

The fact we had decided to move away from the UK was not due to this, but I feared this sort of incident would happen sooner than later.

In our village in Isaan, a few days after arriving, my son and I were walking through and came across a bunch of 10-15 year olds playing football.

We were called 'Baaksida' and a few other choice words were flung in our direction.

My son looked at me and said ' Bloody hell Dad, can we go to a place that I DO fit in ? '

I guess the difference is that these kids' parents were then spoken to by my wife - and now my son joins in ( with the football, not the 'Baaksida chants ' )

In the last month or so my son has grown up a lot, I'm proud of him and ashamed of my own Country.

Not sure it's racism or nationalism but those kids behavior reinforces the OPs post.

Thais are brought up to respect, except when it comes to outsiders.

I agree RE respect.

I just finished reading a book that discussed this type of thing. The book argues that Thais operate in 3 social circles of increasing indifference. They are, in order: family circle, cautious circle and selfish circle.

As foreigners, we are by definition perpetually outsiders and thus are generally part of the Thai selfish circle. Just the way it is. But hey, don't worry. This is true all over the world. Happens to immigrants in any country. Even the ultra polite Japanese continue to have problems with Korean (and other) immigrants in Japan.

Take a peek at: http://www.thingsasi...ies-photos/2704

From the link above ...

"For example, why can such an otherwise gentle and non-confrontational people be such aggressive drivers? How can they be so compassionate in certain circumstances and so callous in others? And why do English-speaking Thais in the company of an English-speaking foreigner nevertheless insist on speaking Thai?"

Good with the bad.. it all a balance.. what did you really expect those kids in the internet cafe to say... what if it was a thai guy who went into an internet cafe on western outskirts of Sydney....... I daresay he'd be lucky to come out in one piece....

Very Good point - 2 weeks before we left the UK my son - 13 - was beaten up in a racially motivated attack.

This was in a small town in South Oxfordshire where he had lived and gone to school all of his young life.

Amongst bruises and a few cuts he also had the word ' Paki C*unt' scrawled on his face.

He looks more European than Thai - but is no doubt different to the usual kids , and different isn't appreciated in the UK these days.

The fact we had decided to move away from the UK was not due to this, but I feared this sort of incident would happen sooner than later.

In our village in Isaan, a few days after arriving, my son and I were walking through and came across a bunch of 10-15 year olds playing football.

We were called 'Baaksida' and a few other choice words were flung in our direction.

My son looked at me and said ' Bloody hell Dad, can we go to a place that I DO fit in ? '

I guess the difference is that these kids' parents were then spoken to by my wife - and now my son joins in ( with the football, not the 'Baaksida chants ' )

In the last month or so my son has grown up a lot, I'm proud of him and ashamed of my own Country.

Not sure it's racism or nationalism but those kids behavior reinforces the OPs post.

Thais are brought up to respect, except when it comes to outsiders.

try this again

Quite civilized I think; it needs practice to have a real fight in Parliament:

Taiwan:

India:

Bolivia - South American style with a swing and they KNOW HOW to fight

Taiwan, again; women only

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1o68Vip5O4...feature=related

Sri Lanka:

Czech Republic

Kenya - African Style trying how strong the furniture is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WtlUFN2Vxw...feature=related

Moscow:

LaoPo

And perhaps most popular are the South Koreans who fight all the time. Nobody is usually seriously injured though.

Sad to see how many people turning this in to a blame game and a look down on Thai people and their driving skills

I'm wondering why so many of you are still in thailand

As it more offen than not here looks like no one have any respect for Thailand or its people

Though most people here

Must have a connection to Thailand by marriage kids or of choice in where you live

People have been injured and this is the way you lot talk about them

Santa will be very disappointed

This argument is so, so very old.

It goes like this ...

If you do truly respect Thailand and Thai people, you should not say anything negative about them whether or not appropriate to do so.

Another one goes like this ...

If you do have anything negative to say about Thailand, I am at a loss as to why you remain in Thailand, since I assume that you have a choice, as your negative comment(s) must prove that you are unhappy here, and because I will further assume that being happy is the only goal that anyone has in life.

It's a weak line of thought, my friend. It's almost akin to saying something like this ...

If you love and respect your child, you won't discipline him and will instead allow him to do what he wants to do as it's his style. It's his ... 'unique child-ness".

Silly, do you agree?

Regards,

Another thing that's silly is expecting a condescending paternalistic carping approach to get any positive sort of response.

Agreed; it certainly is. Good thing I had no such expectations, then. But lo! If I look carefully, I nevertheless seem to have given someone some enjoyment from my comment.

EDIT: not every lazy line of thinking deserves a dignified response.

Sad to see how many people turning this in to a blame game and a look down on Thai people and their driving skills

I'm wondering why so many of you are still in thailand

As it more offen than not here looks like no one have any respect for Thailand or its people

Though most people here

Must have a connection to Thailand by marriage kids or of choice in where you live

People have been injured and this is the way you lot talk about them

Santa will be very disappointed

This argument is so, so very old.

It goes like this ...

If you do truly respect Thailand and Thai people, you should not say anything negative about them whether or not appropriate to do so.

Another one goes like this ...

If you do have anything negative to say about Thailand, I am at a loss as to why you remain in Thailand, since I assume that you have a choice, as your negative comment(s) must prove that you are unhappy here, and because I will further assume that being happy is the only goal that anyone has in life.

It's a weak line of thought, my friend. It's almost akin to saying something like this ...

If you love and respect your child, you won't discipline him and will instead allow him to do what he wants to do as it's his style. It's his ... 'unique child-ness".

Silly, do you agree?

Regards,

This is what most of you are saying you do, and I am saying boll*cks, no one does this.

If the flow of traffic is stopped by a red light (traffic, not rail) further down the road, then there is a chance you will end up over the tracks as you will have nowhere to go; you sure ain't gonna back out of it!

Be honest with yourselves..........

And I agree. I don't do this either. I follow the car in front of me unless traffic lights stop me. I do my best to stop at a box junction, but with so many other things going on around me in the traffic I sometimes get caught out and block the odd box junction here or there (although lately I feel I have been the one to trigger drivers in the next lane to follow suit and stop for a box junction thus easing traffic at the potential onset of localized gridlock)....

This level crossing incident is preventable. But any measure taken to prevent further occurrence will come at the cost of the convenience of many and create significant gridlock else where. This is perhaps a situation where there is no ideal system, just the best of a handful of poor systems.

Someone will ask for it, but I'm not going to provide proof as I can't be bothered to look for it (I'm about to head out): BUT, it has been my understanding for many years now that the country with the highest incidence of level crossing incidents is the USA, so lets stop trying to turn this into a 'Thai' issue, its not, its simply an issue of poor road design and given the monies involved with having to redesign a road and rail system around an inner city level crossing versus the 1 in x years accident it seems hardly worth it when far more significant impact could be made in other areas of traffic safety.

I don't mind hitting my country when it's well-deserved. That's one of the glaring differences between Thais and Americans. Nobody is harder on American than are Americans.

Incidence - Noun - The occurrence, rate, or frequency of a disease, crime or something else undesirable

highest incidence

means not so much by itself, am I right?

It has been my understanding that:

1. The US was kinda sorta at the forefront for very heavy, cross-country rail services in what is a pretty vast country

2. The US has more rail track and rail volume than any other country on Earth

3. The US having been a very rich country and having invented the automobile has had more drivers than any other country on Earth

4. The US has had more developed cities/towns with more rail crossings for longer than most countries where railroads have been used heavily

A quote taken from the linked document --

"According to World Bank data, theU.S. freight railroad industry leads the world(often by large margins) or is near the topamong all nations in terms of miles of track,traffic volume, productivity, affordability,and other measures."

Ok, so aside from the fact that the statement RE the US is irrelevant, your notion that this is not

a "Thai" issue

too is incorrect. It's in Thailand; it's a Thai issue. It may not be unique to Thailand, but I'll tell you what ... The Thai system's inability, at worst, and painful slugishness, at best, to force necessary change to protect average people whether on roads or elsewhere is something that is uniquely Thai.

Hope you had a nice time out.

Edit Reason: attached document nobody will likely read

Overview.pdf

Not sure why some people think queuing is a particularly British trait. The Germans do it just fine. The Japanese do it perhaps even better than the British or at least as good...

Anyway, I just finished reading a book that discussed this type of thing. The book argues that Thais operate in 3 social circles of increasing indifference. They are: family circle, cautious circle and selfish circle.

Take a peek at: http://www.thingsasian.com/stories-photos/2704

From the link above

"For example, why can such an otherwise gentle and non-confrontational people be such aggressive drivers? How can they be so compassionate in certain circumstances and so callous in others? And why do English-speaking Thais in the company of an English-speaking foreigner nevertheless insist on speaking Thai?

Many well thought out and accurate responses thank you.

I too have no ill will towards the country or any national, I only make observations.

Google

Nazism in our brainwashed upbringing

for a fascinating article by a Thai national.

http://papayainthail...cation-one.html also very insightful

Thanks for the links. The article and blog are fascinating...

However, I refuse to draw abstract conclusions about PattaniMan because the truth is that he/she might very well be quite accomplished in life. Accomplished antagonists do exist.

On Thai Visa, they all seem to claim that they have beautiful, educated wives with white skin, big successful businesses and have tons of money (especially on threads where they are complaining about how expensive Thai food in roadside stands is becoming).

lol -- hey, image is everything. My grandmother always said "ThailandMan, you gotta fake it 'till you make it"!

with you on this one semper.....this is quickly turning into a "why pattaniman is the greatest loser who ever lived thread?"

PattaniMan have started 3 topics, read them and draw your own conclusions.

Are you that weirdo from the other thread who checks up on what people have written in the past?

If so, are you now suggesting that you also record (and track) previous threads that forum members have started?

Jesus Christ -- you really need to get a life.

+0.5

I agree a bit in that PattaniMan seems to enjoy just spectating with the occasional flame or personal attack to keep the thread going. He/she seems to be rather good at it, as well.

However, I refuse to draw abstract conclusions about PattaniMan because the truth is that he/she might very well be quite accomplished in life. Accomplished antagonists do exist.

I would love to hear from him/her on this, his/her own, topic, but I fear that he/she has an agenda that does not involve his/her opening up.

I'm sure it wasn't intentional but the very nature of this thread invites people to partake in a "pissing-up-the-wall" contest to be judged in the court of forum opinion. One bloke genuinely believes he's got it made cos he's hooked up with that holy grail of expat legend, the well-educated, well-connected Chinese-Thai lawyer or banker with gravity-defying baps, another bloke says he's got it made better cos he's got two lovely kids - shit, even sewer rats have kids, mate - and then another bloke rocks up, pisses on both their cornflakes and proclaims he's attained a level of enlightenment reserved only for the most dedicated expatriate Jedi by casting off his attachment to material wealth.

For a fleeting moment, I considered lining up and aiming my chopper at the wall with the rest but then I figured, who really gives a flying <deleted> what the Thaivisa forum demographic thinks of someone daft enough to lay out his/her "achievements" at the request of a wannabe life coach?

I had to lookup what the (colloquial?) word 'bloke' means, but I get your point and agree with most. Ain't nothing wrong with sharing, however. For people who don't feel comfortable sharing, it's within their right not to do so.

Despite the OP's disinterest for constructive commenting, I was nonetheless able to gain from reading some of the responses. Hell, I was even inspired by some of the posts.

I thought we were all just having a bit of fun.

You think too mut!

Yes, yes. Words spoken in my direction often.

I'm sure it wasn't intentional but the very nature of this thread invites people to partake in a "pissing-up-the-wall" contest to be judged in the court of forum opinion. One bloke genuinely believes he's got it made cos he's hooked up with that holy grail of expat legend, the well-educated, well-connected Chinese-Thai lawyer or banker with gravity-defying baps, another bloke says he's got it made better cos he's got two lovely kids - shit, even sewer rats have kids, mate - and then another bloke rocks up, pisses on both their cornflakes and proclaims he's attained a level of enlightenment reserved only for the most dedicated expatriate Jedi by casting off his attachment to material wealth.

For a fleeting moment, I considered lining up and aiming my chopper at the wall with the rest but then I figured, who really gives a flying <deleted> what the Thaivisa forum demographic thinks of someone daft enough to lay out his/her "achievements" at the request of a wannabe life coach?

I had to lookup what the (colloquial?) word 'bloke' means, but I get your point and agree with most. Ain't nothing wrong with sharing, however. For people who don't feel comfortable sharing, it's within their right not to do so.

Despite the OP's disinterest for constructive commenting, I was nonetheless able to gain from reading some of the responses. Hell, I was even inspired by some of the posts.

trisailer,

It's quite clear that you either really love Thailand and/or perhaps you have thought much about your opinions regarding the Thai labor force.

The truth is that the smartest guy in the world (in this area) could not really predict with accuracy what will happen in Thailand or anywhere else for that matter. It is an equation which is too difficult to sort out. There's no reason not to love the Thais the way we'd love just about anyone else. People the world over, deep down, are much more alike than they different. (Btw, where are you from, if you don't mind me asking?)

Many of us are invested in Thailand and its future even though we aren't Thai, so we do have some valid reasons to be concerned with the direction the country is going in. It would be impossible for most Thais to understand that although we outsiders will be likely be perpetually so, we still do care. In many cases, because we are on the outside, we can take in and process what happens here (not truly objectively but) with some distance that a Thai who has lived here his or her entire life would not be able to achieve.

Thais, like Africans, Latin Americans, Russians, Eastern Europeans, Black Americans, etc are all very capable people. All cultures have flaws that make certain achievement difficult and advantages that contribute positively to certain achievement. Many things are Thai culture are ridiculously wonderful, and I think most people would admit it if asked properly.

I understand the need to defend Thailand and Thais esp if you are Thai.

But, unfortunately, Thais need to be willing to critique themselves or at least be open to criticisms if they are to benefit more from the rest of the world. I know all kinds of Thai people, but it's so rare that they are interested in discussing their flaws. People from other nations I've known (Japan, South Korea, China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, USA, any European Country, several African countries, etc) have all been interested and willing to discuss and point out the flaws in their people/country.

Do you agree that Thais seem to be uniquely (or perhaps not uniquely) incapable on a large scale of being open to cultural criticisms?

At any rate, the US not so long ago had some certain developmental challenges just like those Thailand is facing now. So did many other countries. The problem I'm hearing from most people with respect to their criticisms of Thailand are the following two things:

1. The Thai ruling class has in effect a complete locking on the wealth of the country and the a) power and b ) educational institutions which could change this.

2. As a result of certain Thai cultural traits, it would seem that the vast majority of people in Thailand are OK with the setup and in fact would rather fight against any outsiders critical of the 'Thai' system rather than to even accept the possibility that their system (and pride for it) could be what is keeping them from rising even further.

I would LOVE it for Thailand to continue to do better and for more Thais to get a piece of the pie so-to-speak, but surely there are some things that Thailand (and especially its powerful) can improve, right?

Thanks,

Anyone can cherry pick particular characteristics of Thai culture that are in opposition to western views, but the fact remains that Thailand enjoys significant growth that most western countries envy. The US will be lucky to break 1.5% growth in GDP this year and unemployment is 10% The US economy is worse than the great depression currently.

Thailand also has nearly 0% unemployment. Anyone who does have a four year degree is virtually guaranteed a job here. That cannot be said of many other countries.

Obviously there are bumps in the road as Thailand moves forward but for the time being they are an economic powerhouse who other countries in Asia will spend decades trying to catch up with.

Those are the facts and I welcome anyone to prove otherwise.

Excuse this rather late reply (maybe alzheimers is getting worse). How much creedence do you place in government released/produced statistics ???

And, I just want to add, this notion of growth envy really makes no sense at all. You can't find me a Western country where the quality of life is worse than it is for the overwhelming majority of Thais in Thailand. Of course there's much growth. There's much to do! And, before people start with some relativist notion of happiness and quality of life, I'm not interested. Don't ask poor people if they are happy because many will say yes. Take them to the US or Canada or any EU country or Australia, show them how average and poor people live in these societies and ask them which they prefer if they had the choice. Growth is arbitrary to some degree when it's compared to other nations and especially rich ones. My mother is considered not very well off, but she drives a relatively new SUV, eats most anything she wants, has excellent health care and a reasonable place to live with all kinds of amenities. Growth rates are simply meaningless without looking deeper.

Sounds like an off day for this writer.

Where does he get the idea that other Asian countries like Vietnam and the Philippines will overtake Thailand? Thailand is already blowing them out of the water for high tech jobs while they wallow in the stone age making shirts. If Thailand failed to progress beyond it's present stage it will still take these other countries 20 years to catch up.

The article should have said that Thailand will be overtaking Japan soon. Their already making cars and electronics as well as Japan.

Thailand is manufacturing all kinds of high tech stuff which is far better than China.

Hmm... Not so sure about what you've stated here.

Japan is prepared in Asia (along with Hong Kong, Singapore and, to a degree, Shanghai) to further transform its economy to a services economy much the same way other, old Western industrialized countries did. Education is the key. Japan has some of best education in the world.

China, too, is a completely different animal than Thailand. First off, China is MASSIVE with a population that is becoming rapidly educated. China has poured investment into education more so than almost any other country on Earth as present. Shanghai has recently had the highest math and science scores in the world. China, unlike Thailand, has always stressed education and industriousness; it's a part of their very long cultural history. It's a significant reason they've done so well as emigrants around the world and particularly in Thailand where it's arguable that they've done best (outside of China, of course).

The issue with Thailand (and I hope it can figure this out) is that it is not even in the ballpark in terms of having the institutions in place to properly educate (culturally and intellectually) its populace to be adaptable to the world economic needs.

1. Workers want to live better = more money

As Thailand does better for itself, there will be an increasing frequency of workers expecting (perhaps even demanding) better wages and a higher quality of life. All countries go through this. Even China is already going through this now. In Thailand, an example is the minimum wage hike which affects industry acutely.

2. Inefficiency of the workforce ('mai bpen rai') not to be confused with productivity

As the workforce demands higher wages, the old Thai method of Inefficient Productivity by throwing more people at labor (think of the very abnormally high number of Thai workers you see standing around at most any workplace) will cease to work because workers will be too expensive for their output. Companies will start looking for other countries who provide this very easy labor more cheaply. In fact, this process is already underway with manufacturing companies looking at (and some moving to) Cambodia, Vietnam and others.

Thailand has been kicking butt among some other SEA countries for a whole complexity of reasons, but it was not ever likely that it was because of inherent capability or hard work. With respect, Thais, by and large, don't like to work. It's not in their nature. I've read papers and books that point to shrewd diplomacy being a factor in Thailand's relative success. And also the early relationship with the US and Japan did much to help as well.

<snip>

On another note -- grow up and start acting like a man.

Btw, your comment made me thing of Russell Peters "Be a Man" skit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJs-77SBXKM

Not sure if you've seen this, but I think it's pretty funny. The "be a man" part occurs around the 2:25 mark.

It seems to me that tourism generally isn't taking a hit anything like the sex tourism sector, and that can't be a bad thing.

I see Thailand as still a good place to have a holiday but I don't go there for Pattaya, Phuket, etc., and the sleaze on offer there. If the sex tourism industry disappears entirely Thailand will attract a higher quality tourist.

I understand this argument, but I'm not so sure. South Korea has a huge sex industry. Japan's is big enough. China, same thing. US big cities, same thing. You might argue that all those countries attract better quality tourists (and expats). Thailand attracts a certain crowd for many reasons with lower prices probably being at the top.

I have a close friend who is rather rich and moderately famous. He worked in law on Wall Street and whose life has followed what most people would consider textbook success. He's got more money than he knows what to do with, properties; smart as heck; he is extraordinarily good looking (imo) and very healthy -- he climbs mountains and participates in some semi-pro athletic events, and never eats this and that and has never smoked or drank; he's got a loving circle of friends (not a very large circle but a tight one); he's got an astoundingly gorgeous wife who is ten years his junior and who cooks like a professional and who is an artist. And on and on. For much of the duration of our friendship, I admired him primarily for the usual suspects: the money, the girls before he got married and his physique.

Is your friend also willing to send me 26 Million US Dollars? If necessary, I'll fly to Nigeria to meet him.

On another note -- grow up and start acting like a man.

So, no hope then for you to provide any real insight... If you're worried about being vulnerable, I can assure you that I will not treat you as you have treated me and others.

I'm reading a book: Working with the Thais -- A Guide to Managing in Thailand.

The book talks much about culture and the differences that makes the Thais -- Thai.

There would seem many cultural challenges within Thailand that create a perfect environment for this kind of corruption.

1st up: Power Distance Index

Thais rank rather highly in this index which is a measure of the extent to which Thais accept that power is distributed unequally and that they expect and prefer greater hierarchical gaps among members of society.

2nd up: Collectivism and a focus on Relationship Building

Thais rank near the top in this aspect. Their life focus tends to be on relationship building within the various communities or circles to which they belong.

3rd up: Conflict Avoidance

Thais rank very high in this category as well.

4th up: Know Your Place And Like IT which is tied into the Mai Bpen Rai attitude

The Thai expression 'Boon Tham Kam Taeng' means your current status is due to your karma. In other words, you really cannot do much to control your place in society and on the planet as where you are currently is due to past lives you've lived.

When you add all these things up, it's really a perfect storm for ineptitude and corruption. Once the authoritarian head of any section of society falls for darker elements of human greed, indeed the whole of society (more-or-less) goes with him. When learning about Thai culture, I'm almost tempted to think that much of these cultural rules evolved to protect the rich and powerful from the vast poor peasantry. You know, things like "you should accept your lot in life" because "it's not really changeable much" ... "because of who you are/were in past lives and who your family were in past lives". Something of a Caste system indeed. Most all civilizations had similar systems at some point, but most of us seemed to have snapped out of it with the Europeans leading the way. I would imagine that the civilizations of very old in Europe and even other now modern older countries had similar problems of corruption, ineptitude and greed.

It's gonna take education and a belief that you can move your lot in life to help change these things. But, as of now, the system of culture here has a perfect stranglehold on Thais inability to change things. Why would you change something that is perfect for reasons you can't understand because they are totally out of your control? What a dilemma.

I agree to a certain extent with what you and the book say, but you need to be very wary of these "guides" to Thailand as they are largely by people who are unqualified in this field - they draw their conclusions from their experiences - lately personal - in business. Whereas corruption in business in rampant and as a rough guide your points might help, you really need to look closely at Thai social history and that of the nations and cultures within Thailand and the region.

THe very way that local "officials" - she weren't actually official - use to curry favour on behalf of villages has lead to an entire civil service that is based of gratuities and graft.......they also tend to have real POWER rather than be servants.

A total lack of understanding of democratic institutions and how they work and interact has also lead to the marbling of all Thai culture with an larding level of corruption that isn't even identified as corruption by many Thai people.

Yes, agreed RE the sources of info. It's not the first book I've read of it's kind. My wife has read a few in Thai. I've taken an interest in the subject for some time now. I've also discussed this at length with others in my circle -- both Thais and non-Thais. I also agree with you RE the constant exchange of social favors that drives much of the social interaction among the Thais.

And, again, I'm not passing judgement on the cultural trait as good or bad, but I do think this (I'll call some of it 'corruption') will be a challenge to Thailand's progress if it has any real ambition to progress. It may not have that ambition, and, in such a case, all my typing, I suppose, would be pretty silly -- as they go about their merry, sabai sabai lives living within a culture that they love.

There is another point I forgot which is big, and that is the following item:

5th Face (Form over Function/Content).

They are setup to be inefficient. It's simply true. As a manufacturing hub, I would imagine you can be productive while not being efficient. All this takes is to throw more cheap people/labor at the work. This is part of the reason we see literally 10 people doing the job that we think one could do without difficulty in other economies. However, once the work changes -- say, in the case of knowledge work -- labor is not cheap, and efficiency of workplace and social culture must be efficient to be competitive. Will Thailand be able to make this transition competitively? As a non-scholar on this subject, I will guess that because these issues are deeply embedded into the culture, I suspect Thailand will have much difficulty competing in that structure.

Young, well-educated, wife and I walked away from more money than most people ever get to make, have a beautiful, young, educated, kind wife, good looking and physically healthy, dropped my concern for material wealth (as evidenced by walking away from a lot of money), do not care for the many distractions that many fall for, learned to not take things personally most of the time, acclimatized, started building relationships with other educated foreigners and Thais here from various places (like school and such), learned to not care much about roaches crawling on my food, learned to be a bit more humble, decided against having any children (huge win, imo), decided that winning is not only about tangible things (like material wealth) but it can also be something like a lack of fear of failure and an understanding that the ride is just as important as the destination.

How about you, OP? Anything inspiring?

So, you are young and well educated.

Your wife is also young. She is beautiful, well-educated, kind, good looking and physically healthy.

Great. Really great.

But what have you actually achieved?

I think that he said he achieved inner peace. Sounds like a lot more than most people ever do, here or in the West. I say congratulations. That sounds like the only achievement worth the effort.

And I guess I just don't see the snobbish part of his response. I guess that is why it is claimed that 90% of the message is lost in a discussion via email. I interpreted his statements completely differently. Without subtle queues like voice tones and body language I imagine people project their own biases onto everything they read.

Thanks (and thanks to WAYNEandAEI). Yes, the inner peace thing is one of the things I was trying to communicate although perhaps I could have done it a bit better.

I have a close friend who is rather rich and moderately famous. He worked in law on Wall Street and whose life has followed what most people would consider textbook success. He's got more money than he knows what to do with, properties; smart as heck; he is extraordinarily good looking (imo) and very healthy -- he climbs mountains and participates in some semi-pro athletic events, and never eats this and that and has never smoked or drank; he's got a loving circle of friends (not a very large circle but a tight one); he's got an astoundingly gorgeous wife who is ten years his junior and who cooks like a professional and who is an artist. And on and on. For much of the duration of our friendship, I admired him primarily for the usual suspects: the money, the girls before he got married and his physique. However, the last lesson he taught me before I left the US before moving over to Thailand was that what really matters to him most are his relationships with people in his life and his health. He said he was happy that he'd been able to convince people he's smart enough to earn their trust so that he could hope to have some positive impact on their lives. He siad he was happy to have money because it allowed him to work on being truly altruistic in his handling of his wealth. Most of all, he was happy to be healthy.

He encouraged me to have goals which get me closer to this kind of real 'enlightenment', if you will. It may sound cliche and obvious, but without our health, we really are nothing. Similarly, without a few good people to share life with, I suspect the vast majority of us would not feel that we were winners no matter the type/amount of currency in our accounts.

I was trying to articulate that I seemed to have achieved these kinds of 'life understanding' goals (to a certain degree, anyway) which are huge achievements for me.

I'm surprised the OP would dismiss my achievement of my goal to face my fears in this regard. Many people I've known live their entire lives in fear. Fear of losing a job or source of income. Fear of losing respect. Fear of not feeling they have accumulated enough things to feel good about themselves. Fear of not finding someone who they love unconditionally and who love and who loves them for who they are. Fear for their health. And so on ...

How many people can challenge their entire world view and face all these fears head on and uproot their lives (giving up a financial wealth many people spend their entire healthy portion of their lives working toward) to go and be challenged in a place and among a people that both have to be learned? How many people can early on in their lives understand the importance of the ongoing personal sacrifice to live healthful lives? To me, these things are huge. I spent almost three years agonizing over all this and growing and challenging myself to be brave. To me, it's not something I can easily dismiss.

If the OP is simply talking about achievement in monetary terms since we've all gotten to Thailand, I have no problem reporting that my business has not earned a single baht as of yet. So, I am still working on this aspect of my life and indeed I do plan to be working on for some time.