MrY

Please, what is a "Volkswagon"...

people still die of TB in los despite the medication available

a galsfriends sister suddenly died at a young age from TB despite the 30bahts scheme

What is even worse,is the fact one TB vaccination jab is cover for a lifetime!

Nope. Got it anyway. Not 100% effective...

Buy a KTMB train ticket from Hat Yai to Malaysia online. 20 ringit minimum purchase. Print. It's a legit outbound ticket.

KTMB E-ticket System

A bomb..A murder..what next for Samui...have been a man for 25yrs...the place is going down the drain..what more do they want to put off tourists

They don't care about tourists, they don't care about anything cos someone will bail them out. You cannot do anything with the brain dead, they are brain dead, end of story. BUT, brain dead do understand pain, it's normal for any planet specie.

Right. No, left, the other right!

No reaction to pain is one of the signs of being brain dead.

And tell me more about coinage from other planets...

How can any one compared international cities with so different history !

You come to Bangkok :

1. you do enjoy the hotels

2. you are under the tropics in a very sophisticated capital where a lot is under offers.

3. you can visit a lot of places and enjoy the various colourful scenery with floating markets.

4. you can spend a lot of times on and around the river where it all started from.

Of course for museums New york, London Paris etc...offer a lot but at a high costs and who comes to Bangkok for museums ?

5. you can pamper yourself so well with various body services to select from.

6. you can enjoy tailor made suits at competitive prices and fast delivery to your room.

7. you can eat every where the best Thai, etc...seafood being not attracting allergies like in New York, London, Paris.

8. you can go around in National Parks, on Islands and play in 50 golfs Clubs within 3 hours drive.

TAT, is it you..?

Thai Airways announces it is ready to cancel flights to Poland in response to earthquake in Chile. Plans to set up a tsunami early warning center in Mongolia. Flights from Mumbambu already cancelled as a precaution.

 

 

But he is still correct, when he says that the rules protecting against sloppy banking & another collapse, were deliberately removed.

 

The people who did that are long gone, but the world will be living with the consequences for years to come, and Soros is right to point this out.

 

 

 

But, the larger, and most shameful question is, how many of those responsible for this horrendous crime, are serving time in prison? When you consider the guilty parties, none have really paid any price. Was their crime any less heinous than that of Madoff? Jamie Dimon should be in prison. Blankenship should be in prison. 

 

Summers, Geithner, Corzine, Volker, Fischer, Phil Gramm, Bernanke, Hank Paulson, Rubin, ,not to mention Alan Greenspan and to some extent Paul Volcker, who put into effect some of the deregulation that led to this fiasco. 

 

Here is a promise Obama made during his 2008 campaign: 

 

“Tomorrow, you can turn the page on policies that put the greed and irresponsibility of Wall Street before the hard work and sacrifice of men and women all across Main Street. Tomorrow you can choose policies that invest in our middle class and create new jobs and grow this economy so that everybody has a chance to succeed, from the CEO to the secretary and the janitor, from the factory owner to the men and women who work on the factory floor.( Barack Obama, election campaign, November 3, 2008, emphasis added) 

 

There is no indication that Obama will break his ties to his Wall Street sponsors, who largely funded his election campaign. 

Goldman Sachs, J. P. Morgan Chase, Citigroup, Bill Gates’ Microsoft are among his main campaign contributors. 

Warren Buffett, among the the world’s richest individuals, not only supported Barak Obama’s election campaign, he is a member of his transition team, which plays a key role deciding the composition of Obama’s cabinet. 

 

 

More of Obamas promises during that campaign. Now many were fulfilled? This is from an article from the Weekly Standard:

 

Barack Obama has an accountability problem. It’s not simply that during the 2008 campaign he made extravagant promises to heal the planet, slow the rise of the oceans, end political divisions in America, and usher in an era of hope and change. It’s that as a candidate and in the early days of his presidency, Obama and his top aides made a series of very specific promises on a range of issues.

 

 

As a candidate, Obama promised to create five million new energy jobs alone, claimed that by the end of his first term his health care plan would “bring down premiums by $2,500 for the typical family,” and guaranteed that his financial rescue plan would help “stop foreclosures.” As president-elect, Obama informed us that he had asked two of his top economic advisers, Christina Romer and Jared Bernstein, to conduct a “rigorous analysis” of his economic recovery plan. The report that he released predicted unemployment would not rise above 8 percent if the stimulus plan was passed. And in the first year of his presidency, Obama pledged to “cut the deficit we inherited in half by the end of my first term in office,” “lift two million Americans from poverty,” and “jolt our economy back to life.”

 

The problem for Obama is that his predictions were not only wrong; they were terribly wide of the mark. For example, since the president was sworn in, America has suffered a net decline of roughly half a million jobs. According to a study by the Kaiser Family Foundation, the average annual premium for family health coverage through an employer reached $15,073 in 2011—an increase of 9 percent, or $1,303, over the previous year. The 9 percent increase in family premiums between 2010 and 2011 followed an increase of 3 percent between 2009 and 2010. Under Obama, the number of foreclosures was the worst in history. In addition, last year was the worst sales year on record for housing, while home values are nearly 35 percent lower than they were five years ago.

Meanwhile, the unemployment rate has been above 8 percent for 41 consecutive months. The deficit was around $1.3 trillion the day Obama took office in the midst of the financial crisis; according to the Congressional Budget Office, in the current 2012 budget year, the deficit will be around $1.25 trillion. And a record 46 million Americans are now living in poverty.

In addition, during the Obama years we’ve experienced the weakest economic recovery on record. America’s credit rating was downgraded for the first time in our history. The standard of living for Americans fell more steeply than at any time since the government began recording it five decades ago. Income for American families has actually declined more following the economic recession than it did during the official recession itself.

Adding salt to his self-inflicted wounds, Obama, in the heady early days of his presidency, invited accountability. In February 2009, for example, the president told NBC’s Matt Lauer that if he didn’t have the economy fixed in three years, then “there’s going to be a one-term proposition.”

Given that Obama’s key economic promises haven’t been kept, what possible excuse can the president offer? Easy. The president’s explanation goes something like this: By the time he took office, the economic situation was far worse than anyone, including Obama, imagined. The deficit was far larger than anyone predicted. The president therefore can’t be held accountable for his failed promises. He was operating on a false set of assumptions. The crisis was much deeper than he knew when he made those promises. “We didn’t know how bad it was,” is how Obama put it last year.

Here’s the problem: If you go back and examine the record, you’ll find that Obama was fully aware of the depth and severity of the recession. As a candidate, for example, he said we were facing “the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.” As president-elect, Obama said we faced “a crisis unlike any we have seen in our lifetime.”

Prior to being sworn in, Obama knew—in fact, he went out of his way to warn us—that we were shedding more than half a million jobs per month, the worst job loss in over three decades. That in 2008 we had lost more jobs than in any year since the Great Depression. That manufacturing had hit a 28-year low. That the stock market had fallen almost 40 percent in less than a year. That credit markets were nearly frozen. That businesses large and small couldn’t borrow the money they needed to meet payroll and create jobs. That home foreclosures were mounting. That credit card and auto loan delinquencies were rising. That the economy was “in a global crisis.” And that he was inheriting an “enormous budget deficit—you know, some estimates over a trillion dollars. That’s before we do anything.”

 

 

Mention the USA and the Fox News lemmings go bat shit crazy. Ye gods.

 

You have to laugh that two people actually liked this nonsense. 

 

...and who handed Obama the keys to this unholy mess..?

I would go to hell...that would be any country in the Middle East...no booze...women covered from head to toe...instant conversion to Islam...all the goat you can eat and sheep you can...bleep!

I drank more booze in Kuwait than you could shake a stick at.

I had my wife & daughter with me, so it was cool. I DID, however, hire a full time driver/bodyguard for my wife so she could go shopping while I was at work.

I actually miss Arabic food. Never ate any goat, but the lamb & chicken were pretty damned good with some moutabal & fresh pita bread!

Oh Yeah, Kuwait & Saudi are the only countries I know of where booze is illegal.

I've been to:

Kuwait

UAE

Qatar

Yemen

Oman

Egypt

Jordan

Iraq

Afghanistan

Bahrain

Never been to Saudi, but I hear it's dry.

All the others, well, they have bars you can belly up to.

Man, I just put on a pound of weight just thinking about Middle Eastern food. Soo goood, but so heavy. And it's always a buffet...

I'm staying and watching the entire economic melt down of Thailand, when the Thai's find out that they just can not do without

the Visa Dodgers, who pour so much wealth into the country, but cant afford to invest a little of it & stay here......shouldn't be long now.....any day

.

Can we start another Thread--- What will Thai Visa be like when they have gone---- Prediction 1/ First stage --send lots of mail telling everyone how great it is back in the west & how very happy they are that they have gone back, with lots more predictions of how Thailand will completely sink now that they are no longer here to hold it afloat--yes its just wonderful walking around looking at the 44 inch bottoms on the women, & being invisible to the others ---Second Stage Return--its time to change my name on Thai Visa..........................................................

.

** Oh yes where would I relocate to---Pitcairn islands... I was there in the 60s dropping some boffins off who had to monitor the French Nuk tests....its 45 Klm of nothingness ,67 people- its where the Bounty crew ended up....everyone is name Fletcher & they have all interbred........& guess who I want to take with me, there will be free Visa's for everyone....that should entice them.

.

My rant for the day is now officially over....

They will absolutely not notice any of this illusion of yours. Tourism in Thailand is growing in numbers [of arrivals] and they have chosen this time to tighten the reigns on an expat population that is small but extremely vocal in voicing out their [unwanted] opinions. There will be costs to doing this, but they will not care or calculate it, as the numbers they care about are going up! It is very difficult to quantify a reduction in growth, as opposed to an actual decline.

Expats are not what they want, they want people who save money in their homeland and the spend it here in a flurry of shopping and boozing on the beach. An average tourist spends multiples more per day than the average expat and keeps their opinions to themselves. "Welcome to Thailand, now karuna get the f*** out, khrap."

Disclaimer: I still chose Thailand for living, warts and all. (Mine, not Thailand's)

 

Yes, this data about internet is fairly correct. I'm retired now (2014), from teaching 3 years here. I taught many subjects and during classroom time I would spend 15 mins. of that time taking phones from the students who think Facebook is their life to be. At lunch time and free time these 10-16 years were on Facebook. Some of my co-Teachers would be in the back of the room on Facebook or playing games.

 

I quit teaching as Thailand remains in the dark ages using technologies correctly and its productively to enhance their future and leave the rice farm and explore new high tech careers that is needed in the 21st century or remain simple minded,  ASEAN is coming and people from Singapore and the such will chew this place up. I've been an educator in Tech fields/ Military and school systems around the world, so, for those of you who defend Thailands progress, you need to take a better look in the mirror and see where your country is headed.

 

You were probably still using landlines when the Thais started using cell phones.  

 

What advanced technology did you use as an 'educator'?  A textbook printed in color?

 

Your concept of 'using technology correctly' was outdated in the 1980's.

 

Why that is base!

Yeah, your average military tech instructor is probably far behind the Thais in adopting new technologies. (Disclaimer: I bought my first mobile, a Benefon, in 1984. There is probably a Thai somewhere in the World that had a mobile phone before that...)

But I do know that almost certainly gyrosman used antiquated methods and outdated equipment in his educational efforts. After all, he was teaching in Thailand, in a Thai school. (Disclaimer: There are some good schools in Thailand. Don't bother pointing this out, as I already did. They are, by definition, not average.)

I will now venture a guess that you probably put your kid in a Thai school and now feel the need to defend your decision by defending their school system. (Disclaimer: I also put my Kid to a Thai school, albeit a semi-private one. It is decidedly average in my eyes, but top notch for Thailand. There are moderate fees to be paid. I spent a lot of time checking out schools, both where my kid lives and in Bangkok where I was working at the time. Also had countless conversations with other parents and searched the Web extensively. "Social networking for life" won over absolute quality of education. My verdict: the average level of edumacation here is rubbish.)

What is this I don't even...

Please don't give numbers to a Thai person.

Internet penetration [,even though it is rapidly increasing,] in Thailand is still only about 25% (compared to Singapore's 75% for example), so each internet user would apparently need to stay online for over 28 hours a day to bring the average up that high. And I say "stay online" rather than "use internet", because that's what it is, mostly. And when they are actually "using the internet" it is usually for social media only. Ask anyone that has worked with Thais in an office environment if Thais can used the Web productively. And these would not be "average Thais", they are the ones that got hired because they are above average. So,

Average Thai spends a measly 1.8 hours per day connected to the Internet

There. Fixed it for you.

 

If given the "proper" care when they are pups, pit bulls are not vicious dogs.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

That doesn't matter. They are potential killing machines. In fact they were bred to fight. Kill them all.

 

I've even seen people letting them run loose in the park -  totally insane. 

 

There is one fairly near my house that went for my daughter on her motorbike. If it does it again, it's getting a rat poison sandwich. Actually, just reading this thread makes me want to kill it today.

 

Does anyone know the best kind of poison?

 

Humans are potential killing machines. Homo homini lupus est.

 

 

I was walking my malemute when a pit bull attacked without warning, no bark. It had escaped from it's yard, hit my dog in the rear and knocked it down and got hold of her back. I'm 6'2" 250 lbs, I hit that pit bull with my fists until my hands got sore, was like hitting a plank. When I couldn't dislodge it I backed up and kicked it like kicking a field goal. The dog twisted in the air and landed on it's feet and came back at my dog. Fortunately the owner heard the ruckus and called his dog off. There is no way on earth a little Thai woman had a chance against one let alone four. The difference between pit bulls and poodles is, the poodle would never have got back up after I kicked it.

 

 

 

Carry one of those metal expandable battons, I got one for 100 baht. Whack the buggers across the nose with one of those and they should back off, if not give them a few hits across the back, break it if you have to, these dogs ARE killers.

 

 

zap zap no more dog problems
 

 

My goodness, if you tried that thing on a big dog that is used to an electronic training collar you'd probably get shredded just for pissing it off! It might stop a street dog that has never been shocked.

I can't bear those dogs. There's invariably a sense of menace about them. And their owners too for that matter. Why anyone should be allowed to walk around in public with a dangerous animal off the leash, which if it attacked you or your loved ones, would be extremely difficult to pull off and may well kill you, beggars belief.
I once saw one tattooed pit bull owner sat in pub with his dog by his side. The owner's chest was puffed out, basking in the attention he was receiving as customers came up and nervously petted his dog, offering such niceties as "Isn't he cute" etc. The dog just sat there, expressionless, a giant pair of jaws on four legs. The only thing remotely cute about it at that moment in time was that it wasn't hanging off the end of someone's leg.
At the very least, there should be laws making it compulsory for them to be muzzled and leashed in public. Ideally, the entire breed, along with their tattooed owners should be placed in a giant industrial mincer, ground to a pulp, and eradicated.
 

You just described a well socialized and well behaved pit bull. Just like they ought to be, not kept in isolation and taught aggression towards strangers. And I would venture a guess that the ones that came to pet the dog were not the nervous ones, you were. And as far as your 'solution', sounds entirely sensible to me...

I am [for example] afraid of horses. Won't go near one. They are capable of causing grave harm to a human. I know because one nearly killed my friend in front of me. Still, I stop short of offering meat grinder as a solution to eradicate all horses and their riders. Even though they do make for a delicious sausage [without the rider].

It's a shame if this is it's last journey that it couldn't be flown to it's last resting place. It is a Harrier after all, and could land anywhere...

 

Pit bulls should be eradicated. They are an unpredictable breed of dog and a pose a huge risk to the public and people that come into contact with them.

 

Although it is fact that any breed of dog can be dangerous, I still cannot see any good, logical arguments for why people would want to keep such powerful types of dogs as pit bulls?

 

In the States and the UK, pit bulls have become a status symbol for trailer park trash and I believe that certain people only keep these breeds as a means of intimidation and a sense of domination of what they consider as their territory. They believe that these dogs are an extension of their own characters, powerful and aggressive.

 

Anyone that keeps pit bulls that attack other people or other dogs should face the toughest penalties. 

 

American Pit Bull Terriers by nature of a friendly breed.  They are kind, loving, playful animals but in the wrong hands they can indeed be deadly.  I agree with you to a degree - but I believe if you want to own am APBT you should be vetted in the same way that you are vetted for a gun.  Only responsible people should own APBT's.  Responsible people will socialize the dog at a young age, teach obedience from a puppy, feed twice a day and exercise regular.  I guarantee you then that you will have great APBT's who will not cause an issue.

 

This policeman probably keeps his 4 pit bulls in a small area with not enough room to play and never walks them.  This alone will make the animal frustrated and aggressive.  He probably chucks them scraps a few times a week and they are probably always hungry, which makes them more frustrated and I bet they have zero training which makes them unpredictable.  Dogs like this need an alpha make leader (the owner) without an Alpha Male leader to 'look up to' they will always feel insecure.  They need to know there leader has things under control and they have nothing to worry about..... and need to know right from wrong (only training can do that) They are essentially just wild animals when they are 'raised' the Thai way.

 

To answer your question....Why bother owning a dog that is so powerful and strong?  I don't know.... Why bother owning a 5 liter 4x4 Land Rover Sport when you live in the middle of a city?  Why bother owning a $30,000 Rolex watch when a $200 Seiko tells the time just as well?  Why bother owning an APBT when you can own a nice cuddly labradoodle?  Its the same point: Because the sheer power, engineering and brute force is something to behold with wonder and awe and that's sometimes why people own APBT's.  They are an impressive dog.  Its as simple as that.

 

And for anyone who thinks my comment of 'friendly breed' is wrong, go ahead and look up the American Dog Temperament guide.  You are officially more likely to be bitten by a Labrador than an APBT according to there stats.

 

I am not an APBT owner.  But I do have two French Mastiff's (Douge De Bordeaux) and they are quite often looked at as vicious scary animals by people out and about when I walk them both.  The Thais usualy look at them in amazement with a smile, but also look weary..... Most ferangs look at me as though to say "oh so your are THAT kind of guy are you?".  Stereotypes.  Ignorant and narrow minded. 

 

I agree 100%. I also have two mastiffs (Spanish). As they are originally bred to take on the Iberian wolf (male wolf 40kg, mastiff 80kg+), they certainly could hurt someone badly, but well and early socialized they only need to be introduced to newcomers. No different to pitbulls in that respect. Kids see them as massive teddy bears and our dogs tolerate their silly ways until they retire to some corner for some peace and quiet. They are indifferent to street dogs barking at them and forever confused as to why Thai dogs won't come near. They do "practice" fight each other (a sight to behold and inevitably ends in them licking each others wounds), so it's not that they wouldn't fight but one would have be stupid enough to climb the fence and ignore some of the loudest warnings (short of a firearm) to get bitten. Some aggressive (and brave) street dogs have nipped at our 'monsters' and they still think it's just play...

I see that Toyota van driver is trying to sneak past on the inside left as usual.

...yes...and white cars are the worst...

Hey, you have noticed it too... I thought it was just my imagination.

I don't think so.

I was never blasting the Elite card.

I was blasting members like yourself who pretend to be internet rich by constantly bashing newbies who shouldn't be in Thailand because they don't have enough money..... ya know.... people like you who like to brag because you feel richer in Thailand then your own country.

But it seems like many of these hiso Thai Visa members can't scrape a partly 10mil baht for an investment visa.

OK, this pathetic mambo-jumbo confirms your loser status. And you are still yammering about the 10M. Never picked up a calculator, eh? (Assuming you know which way to hold it) Enough of your BS, gotta go to work now.

Who's this elite card for? To me, it seems rather obvious.

1. Those with more money than brain cells.

2. Those who like to show off.

There may be some practical use for the card, but after cursory review of the "benefits", I don't see any.

I got a chuckle out of this comment as just a month I was at a table full of German friends and one of them mentioned he intended to get an Elite Card and asked if any of the others had one. Out of the five two had one and were not aware of the other one also having an Elite Card, so clearly not for "showing off". No one considered it a bad deal. These are no high flyers, new Vigo four-door or Fortuner seemed the vehicle of choice (plus one classic Mercedes). Not one of them could be considered a dummy either. Most people with wealth understand it is not PC to flaunt it.

I am not saying how much money I have.... it is just in bad taste.

But let's just say I had exactly 10 million in my account and I have a choice of 2 visas.

I would go for investor visa and would not even think twice about this Elite card nonsense.

Anyhoo.... what's 10 million baht? Less than 200k UK pounds? The guy on another thread is getting blasted for calling himself financially independent by a lot of posters on this fine forum. I am assuming these posters then must make a lot more and have a pretty good nest egg stashed up. What's a 10mil to them? Why not go for investor visa? It has been there for quite some time and it is super hassle free,

I just don't get it?

Yes, you just don't get it. The 10M 'investment' in Thailand is a much more expensive option than simply paying 500K. Just do the math on zero return (interest minus inflation) vs 5% net return elsewhere.

As far as the Elite Card, I don't have one but I would consider it if I stayed permanently in Thailand. I haven't witnessed anyone recommending one to your "average Joe".

I have lived here 4 years now and I am starting to look for another place. I am simply feed up with the trouble of doing business here, visa, work-permit etc. and of course also now having to report to the police, when we go and visit friends and family here. It is just too much and I have become really sick of it.

Our company here could e.g. grow and easily hire 2-3 skilled foreigners, but since we need hire 4 Thai-employees to get one work-permit, then it is simply not worth staying here. And we can not find the skilled local staff, so it is impossible to grow the business here. It is simply stupid and frustrating as well. Can not find local staff, but need them to be able to hire skilled foreign staff.

Will visit both Cambodia and Philippines during the next couple of weeks and then decide where to move. One thing is for sure... I am out of here. I was hoping for better conditions for foreigners here, but have seen nothing else that more and more restrictions. It seems as Thailand is only a place for older people with their pensions to spend.

A shame really...

Very big pensions in some cases

Get yourself a Cambodian passport, only 500,000 us dollars, peanuts realy

I should have gotten one when it was $500...

I can confirm from visitors to this pseudo-Buddhist for-profit organization that they do accept donations via card payment and do not distinguish between debit and credit.

Has anyone seen the monstrous hideosity they are building next to the "nipple"? My wife calls it the Buddha Mall...

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I am sure they did see the bombing of London as a war crime and not the fire bombing of Dresden.

It is easy to forget that is how war used to be, until very recently. It was country against country and that included civilians. It was not just army against army.
During WW2, all nations used bombing of cities as a method of interfering with war production and demoralizing the enemy. Japan did it in China, Germany did it with the London Blitz, Italy did it in Ethiopia, and the allies did it with the bombing of Berlin, Dresden and Hamburg, as well as Tokyo and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
These strategic bombing campaigns were predicated on the concept of Total War. The civilian population under the control of the enemy was seen as a resource. Therefore, the civilian populace was considered a legitimate target of attack.

 

I agree that much has been changed since then but Hiroshima and Nagasaki are of a different scale and so bad it has never been seen before. I am pretty sure that most agree it was overkill especially the one on Nagasaki. It was just a show of power towards the Russians. 

 

I thank the USA for helping us get rid of the Germans and Japanese but if something was a war crime those things were. But I am also not blind for the argument that Japan would have gone on fighting. But I really see these things.. London Dresden Hiroshima Nagasaki as war crimes. That they all did it does not make it any less bad.

 

The atomic bombings were not a show put on for the Russians, it was to save a lot of American lives (and might have even saved Japanese lives unintentionally). A full scale invasion of Japan would have been very costly in regards to American / human life. The Japanese put up a good fight to the death as should be noted by looking at the fighting in the Pacific between the US and Japan. The military leadership and emperor were informed of the weapon prior to the first bombing and then still did not surrender so the second bomb was dropped. Firebombing Tokyo never seems to be mentioned even though it killed just as many people. The Atom bomb is a terrible thing but if you had a family member fighting in the military at the time, I'm sure you were damn grateful for it.

My thoughts exactly. The high command already know from the experience with the Germans how much the resistance stiffened once the Allied entered the 'Fatherland'. The Japanese surely would have put up a fanatical defense on their own soil. Of course the U.S. also got to demonstrate their mighty new weapon to the world.

 

I used to go to Taiwan couple times each year and the business owner we dealt with took me for dinner at the Hilton in Taipei he ordered sharks fin soup but I said no thank you but he insisted so I tried it first time to be polite it was shit horrible tast had couple spoons and left it he finished it off after his.

They believe it is afridisiac gives them big dick.

Ban it world wide.

It's not an aphrodisiac. It is a traditional food for big events. How would the Anglo-American imperialists feel if Asians demanded the ban of turkey for Christmas due to the cruel treatment of the birds, which in most cases are locked up in tiny cages or overcrowded pens. The birds suffer from the day they are hatched to the day they are brutally taken away. Ban!!

 

Fine, start farming sharks then and we'll ban the "cruel treatment of turkeys"! I won't give an F about the conditions shark farms and I sure as hell wouldn't protest, just leave the oceans alone!! Slash-and-burn is traditional too, why don't you try that in a park in Shanghai?!