Norlund

5 hours ago, Maestro said:

Even immigration officials sometimes say or write "visa" when they mean what legally is called "permission to stay", but over time the readers of this forum are mostly able to guess what is meant when a particular term is used incorrectly and we generally make allowance for these imprecisions and do not stir up a fuss. It gets serious, though, when somebody suffers a substantial disadvantage because of a misunderstanding and I have seen at least one such case.

 

In this topic, where you sought clarification on the use of the form TM.86, you justifiably emphasised the importance of the correct use of the terms and I agree that they are not always easy to comprehend.

 

Even lawyers are sometimes prone to giving a wrong interpretation, for example in the video to which you linked at 1:20

At that point, I stopped watching and listening. 

 

I see it as pure desperation when someone claimes that public authorities in Thailand write something they don't mean on their websites and that you have to guess what they really mean. You also claim that lawyers, and especially an American lawyer with 30 years in Thailand and who has Thai citizenship, do not know what they are talking about.

This must be the perfect "tool" to deny ALL THE FACTS in a discussion. Sorry this is just getting way too stupid.

6 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

I would encourage you to take the matter up with immigration directly and explain to them how they can better correct themselves, either in terms of translation or else reworking the entire visa and extension system so that it accords with your understanding.

It is totally unnecessary because what the Immigration Office writes on its website is very simple and understandable. The problem may be that some people are unable to read it or perhaps have major problems accepting it because it does not fit into their view of the world.

7 hours ago, Maestro said:

I know I am not replying to the poster whom you are asking whether he knows what a re-entry permit is but this topic is not about re-entry permits, is it? If I remember correctly, the subject of re-entry permits was first brought up by you. Anyway, let's all remain on topic and leave the re-entry permit out of it

The reason why a Re Entry Permit came up in the discussion was that it proves that you have a VISA.

7 hours ago, Maestro said:

Are you perhaps mixing up "Visa" "with permission to stay"?

 

You arrive with a tourist visa valid for travel to Thailand before the expiration date of the visa. I believe this expiration date is 90 days or three months after the issue date of the visa.

 

After 60 days (I presume you mean after arrival in Thailand) you do not change the Tourist visa to a non-immigrant visa. A certain minimum number of days — which can vary from one immigration office to the next — prior to the expiration date of of your permission to stay, if you meet the requirements you can apply for a non-immigrant visa.

 

Wrong. You change your VISA. Because technically the Immigration Office does not issue visas although with a TM87 you can apply for a Non Imm,igrant Visa because Immigration considers this also a conversion.

5 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Well, I don't know what they meant to say, but I can assure you that you have not lost your visa and instead been given a permission to stay.

 

Just look at your passport. The visa you used to travel to Thailand is still there, in your passport, no longer valid for travel if it was valid for a single entry. Upon your arrival in Thailand and following verification by an immigration official that you qualified for entry into Thailand, a stamp was placed in your passport indication the arrival date and the expiration date of your permission to stay.

 

The permission to stay you were given on your arrival did not replace or substitute your visa, but the length of the permission to stay was based on the type of visa with which you arrived.

That's exactly what I'm saying. 

13 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Straight up ridiculous.

You enter Thailand on a single entry visa such as tourist visa then you are stamped in with a permission of stay.

Some refer to as a permit of stay. 

In the TV example the stamp allows 60 day stay. 

You could obtain an extension 30 days .

If married you could could obtain another extension 60 days based on visit wife. 

The visa was "used" the day you entered Thailand. 

 

 

Don't you know what a Re Entry Permit is? Maybe you should ask your friends the experts. 

17 minutes ago, aussiexpat said:

It's what everyone has been telling you for 4 pages of posts lol

Then you need to read what they write one more time. 

3 minutes ago, Dan O said:

you're correct, so you should not come to thailand because you can not seem to grasp logical explanations.  Sorry I can not read 5 pages of this nonsense

 

you have a stamp in your passport based of the visa type you applied for when you came to Thailand. Tourist visa, visa exempt ext..... each type of visa grants you a specific amount of time you can stay in the country before you either have to leave or get an extension of time. Either of those time frames is called "permission to stay" and printed on the stamp in your passport and is based on the type of visa originally stamped in your passport. When you use the TM86 or TM87 you are requesting immigration to grant you the option to receive "permission to stay" under whenever new visa type you are wanting to change to and be given the "permission to stay' that the new visa type allows.

The "time frames" are NOT called "Permission To Stay". What you have is a VISA. That is why you can change your Tourist Visa to a Non Immigrant Visa at the Immigration Office. Every document you need in Thailand like a Thai drivers license, a Yellow Book, a Pink ID-card, a Thai bank account, Resident Permit, buy a car/motorbike in your own name and proof of residence from the Immigration Office is based on a Non Immigrant Visa. Why is this so difficult to understand? 

2 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Correct.  However, the "Kind of visa" the TM.86 asks about is not a question about just any of the many visas that may be in your passport, it is a reference specifically to the latest visa with which you arrived in Thailand prior to your application for a non-immigrant visa.

It is what I said. You arrive with a 60-days Tourist Visa. After 60 days you CHANGE the Tourist Visa to a Non Immigrant Visa. And then you Extend the Non immigrant Visa for 1 year more. "Permission To Stay" and "Extension Of Stay" do not exist. 

5 minutes ago, aussiexpat said:

Just wasted 5 minutes of my life reading why the OP is on a mission for what I have no clue

 

Pretty simple, enter on visa exempt or tourist visa, apply for 90 day non-imm O visa, apply for 12 month extension..what is the OP arguing about?

 

Iff you mean an extension of the 90-days Non Immigrant Visa I fully agree with you. 

11 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

The explanation is that your visa cannot be reused to enter Thailand (unless it is a multiple entry visa), however you are permitted to stay in Thailand for the time indicated on the ink stamp placed in your passport by the Thai immigration officer at your port of entry.

 

A TM86/TM87 is used to when you apply to extend the initial length of stay you have been granted by the immigration officer.

When you enter Thailand on a Single Entry Visa you can leave the country as much as you please iff you have a Re Entry Permit Multiple Entry before the VISA expire.

The TM86 is what the heading says. Change of VISA.   

7 minutes ago, Maestro said:

The title of the form T.86 incorrectly says "APPLICATION FOR CHANGE OF VISA", whereas near the bottom it says correctly "I Wish to apply for a non-immigrant visa"

Do you really believe that the Immigration Office writes "Change Of Visa" without meaning it? You should come up with something better than that.

7 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Yes, they are all wrong. When they say "lose your visa", but they really mean to say that the visa has lost its validity (unless the visa was valid for more multiple trips to Thailand and the expiry date shown on the visa sticker has not yet passed). It is again some sort of shorthand.

No they actually mean you have lost your visa and instead you have a "Permission To Stay". 

3 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

News flash.

Most regard that firm and videos as laughable.

Some folk post them along with Facebook stuff.

Quite funny really. 

Absolutely no facts do you accept. But how about providing evidence for what you claim. The only thing you and "your friends" come up with is how ignorant and sloppy Thai officials are and that they mean something completely different than what they write online. Do you really believe that <deleted>? Iff someone is laughing it would be the people who reads that nonsense. 

12 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Yes, the TM.86 form has a field labelled "kind of visa"

 

Another post in this topic already mentioned that forms often condense the text, like some sort of shorthand. Here, "kind of visa" askes for the type of visa with which you arrived in Thailand. It does not ask for a visa that is still valid for travel to Thailand on the date of your submission of the TM.86.

The post "Kind of visa" is the VISA you have at the moment you apply for a Non Immigrant Visa. 

Frankly, it is a very poor argument that public offices and public officials are "sloppy" with the use of language just to fit their version of reality.

This is a video I posted earlier in this thread, but I think some people don't fully understand the content. And in this video he explains what is the Difference Between a Thai Visa, Extension, and Permit to Stay? 

This is an American lawyer who has a Thai citizenship. There are videos of him that this forum itself has posted so his credibility should be something this forum accepts.
 

This link comes from the Ministry Of Foreign Affairs in Thailand. And here there is proof that it is a VISA. But then again, these are probably also ignorant and lazy so when it says VISA, it should actually be "Permission To Stay".

https://www.mfa.go.th/en/page/issuance-of-visa?menu=5e1ff6e057b01e001a03f7d3

13 minutes ago, Maestro said:

No visa is being changed. The title of the form TM8.9 is wrong, both the original Thai text and the English translation.

 

The correct title would probably be "Application for non-immigrant visa category O"

 

The issuance of this visa is subject to specific criteria and conditions which must be met by the applicant, as outlined in the guide for this form.

Be my guest please tell the Immigration Office the correct heading. 

Just now, Maestro said:

You don't lose the visa when you step outside passport control at the point of entry into Thailand. The visa is still there in passport. If it was for a single entry, it was perhaps crossed with the text "USED", perhaps not, but either way it has been used for the purpose for which it was issued, ie for travel to Thailand. It is no longer valid for that purpose.

Wrong. The VISA is the reason why you can stay in Thailand. 

12 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

I'm almost embarrassed for you. 

You are twisted up in terminology.

 

If I bar chat with random guy and he states "I live here on retirement visa".

I don't correct him.

What he most likely means is ..

"I live in Thailand on extensions based on retirement" 

 

Those extensions could be from a non O retirement or non O-A.

Certainly not visa extension.

Visas cannot be extended.

The permission of stay can be extended. Very different.

 

Thai immigration even use terms such as "Retirement visa extension" 

No such thing but that has been pointed out by several knowledgeable posters and I posted earlier you are playing games.

If you have a genuine question such as which form to use or help with obtaining a non O and subsequent extensions based on retirement or marriage then by all means ask. 

You will be given sound advice.

Playing the silly card does not help.

Just making yourself look ridiculous. 

 

I have proven that it is a VISA. It is only you who refuse to accept the facts by claiming that public officials are ignorant and lazy. Even the Immigration Office you refuse to believe. Where you have this nonsense with a "Permission To Stay" from could be interesting to know.

When applying for a Resident Permit, one of the requirements is 3 consecutive years with a Non Immigrant Visa. But it is alleged that the Immigration Office and other public offices are so ignorant and lazy that it is actually 3 consecutive years with an "Extension Of Stay".

"1. An applicant’s qualifications A foreign national may qualify to apply for a residence permit if he/she 1.1 holds a passport of his/her current nationality, which was granted a NON-IMMIGRANT VISA and has been permitted to stay in the Kingdom ofThailand on the basis of one year visa extension for the total of at least 3 consecutive years up to the application submission date."

https://www.immigration.go.th/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2.2คำแนะนำอังกฤษ-2565-legal.pdf

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

@Norlund you are welcome to continue posting the English translations of the originating Thai language, there is no basis in fact of your total incomprehension of the point that a Thai translator uses the shorthand “visa” instead of the accurate “permit to stay” or “extension of stay”

 

It seems that you are also misunderstanding the fact that Thailand is possibly unique in splitting the visa out from the permit to stay. All Thai visas have  an “enter before date” after which they expire or become invalid. In most countries this is the last date you can stay in that country. Thailand is different in that you are often given permission to stay beyond the expiration date of your enter before, visa 

 

 

Rubbish and you know it. 

18 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

No it is a misstatement of the correct “in Thailand you must have been given “permission to stay” based on entering on a Non-O or a Non-immigrant long stay (usually 1 year) 

So you mean that ALL government offices in Thailand don't know what they are doing? So ALL the evidence you refuse to accept on that basis?

16 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There are a number of websites that use the shorthand wording that you need a VISA none of them bother to use the correct “in Thailand you must have been given “permission to stay” based on entering on a Non-B or a Non-O based on being married to a Thai”

Do you think that Immigration Office is lazy too?
 

https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?p=14714

4 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Yes.

 

Then you know it has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.