Valjean

I’m looking for recommendations for a Thai company that can do the bookkeeping for my new company based in Bangkok. I’m American and the company is under the Treaty of Amity. At this point I want full service; bookkeeping, payroll, tax reporting, etc. If they have a “sister company” doing audits that’s fine but I have other options for that.

The larger shops that sell plywood also have the whiteboard type of laminate. By a 4 x 8 sheet of each and a can of contact cement; you're in business.

that's a smart idea!

I'm looking to buy some big white boards. So far I just see smaller ones. Where I work the large conference room boards are glass which I suspect is more expensive. (am I wrong?). I was just thinking of the basic white boards. I don't even care if they have frames. Ild like something about 4 feet x 8 feet (1.22 m x 2.44 m).

Any good ideas where to buy these?

Here is some information from the Royal Thai Consulate in the US.

Q: I have a questions for requirements for US Citizens in Thailand who want to do volunteer work. What Visa or Work Permit is required of Americans to do volunteer work? And how would this be defined?

A: "A non-immigrant O category visa is issued for volunteer work in Thailand. The organization that you would be volunteering for would send a letter requesting the visa and describing the volunteer work you would be doing. They also need to take financial responsibility for you during your stay."

Q: Am I correct that in this case a Work Permit is not required? What if I am living in Thailand under another type visa such as the retirement visa?

A: "Some authorities will require a work permit on the “O” category visa – it just depends on the scope of your work, who you’re working for, etc. Most people don’t need to get the work permit. The retirement visa is designed for retirement only – if you get caught working (or sometimes volunteering), they can revoke your retirement visa. I don’t think it happens very often unless you were volunteering on a full-time basis that appeared to be work."

This confirms part of my confusion in the beginning. Whether or not a WP is technically required for the short term “holiday volunteer” it’s the practice to just get the O Visa via the consulate and come for your 2-6 weeks. Thousands do this with Thai and International NGOs every year. The risk for these people non-existent in my opinion; especially if they have submitted a letter to the Thai Consulate and been given a visa for that specific work and are working with an established organization.

And I’m not at all surprise that each time I ask the question I get a little different answer. The law firm is going to be like any law firm and give advice that has no risk. That’s their job and their liability if something goes wrong with a client. The Consulate is in the US and the process paperwork for these visas every day. The official upcountry is worried about his job and doesn’t want problems. It’s like the parable of the blind men and the elephant.

I also disagree with the statements that the complexity and difficulty of getting official approval means in fact that the Thai government or people don’t want or want to discourage volunteer work. While I’m sure that’s true in some cases I don’t think that’s the specific intent. It’s just about regulating activities. Don’t take it personal. It just bureaucracy which can drive you crazy and every turn.

If I get more info I’ll post it. It would be a great service to the expat community here to have some sort of resource web site on approved volunteer opportunities, process, contacts, policy, etc. Almost all of this thread is either opinion or anecdotal – and much of it conflicting. It seems it would be some work to get to the bottom of this – not something I have the time for now. I will keep it in the back of my mind and when my CSR Lead returns form a trip to the US I’ll chat with her some more about this.

edited to add quotation marks so you know what they said versus what I am saying

Here is information from the multinational law firm that does work permits for the multinational I work for. (which reminds me I have to go renew my WP tomorrow…) They can’t give advice out directly so you can call this hearsay for what that’s worth. You can consult your own attorney if required.

Q: If a foreigner is doing volunteer work in Thailand is a work permit required? And what type visa is required? Or does the type of visa matter as long as it’s current?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Exception for working for Governmental authority, then a work permit is not required. Non-B visa is required.

It is possible that government project undertaken by a private NGO which is sponsored by any ministry, bureau, department, work permit is exceptional but you would have to check with the organization.

Q: Are schools considered a Governmental Authority?

A: There are both private and government school. It depends on its organization. You have to check with the school.

Q: There are some NGO organizations that bring volunteers here for short term 2-4 weeks. In this situation is a work permit required? If just a visa what type?

A: A work permit is required, if you work for private organization. Non-B visa as well.

As to this last one; clearly ignoring this is widespread and the implications for the volunteers are minimal. It makes me realize why the Directors at 2 NGOs we've asked about this haven't and probably won't answer.

The school one is very interesting since I assume helping in public schools would be one of the more common activities. Would be great if someone could double check my info.

Also the sponsored angle is intersting - and I could imagine complicated. There are all sorts of groups working under the patronage of the Royal Family or other government instutitions.

I think there are a few issues mixed up here.

The Thai government does has a right, in fact an obligation, to oversee the activities of foreign visitors. We may think their policy and management of the policy isn’t optimum but this is a fundamental role of the government and all do it. Everywhere there are rules and regulations.

In my experience and I’m sure for the vast majority who have done volunteer work the actual recipients of your efforts are quite grateful and gracious. I would not confuse government bureaucratic policy as meaning your time and efforts won’t be welcome. They complicate it for

sure but if you can get around this there’s most likely a rewarding experience ahead for you with heartfelt appreciation.

I suspect one area of confusion here is the difference between foreign visitors coming for a short stay and doing volunteer work with an NGO. Perhaps technically they should have a work permit but I suspect in many cases getting what I think is the B Visa that a business person should get before coming here to engage in business activities (which you could differentiate from working here). It lets you do non-tourist activities for a limited time and scope. Also for these short term visitor should there ever be an issue with letter of the law compliance the implications for them would be a lot less than one of us who consider this home. This is where all of us doing some homework could help clear things up.

Lastly it’s quite common that the whole concepts and legal frameworks of what constitute a NGO or not for profits concern are not as well defined and consistent in emerging markets. It’s one of the challenges of multi-nationals companies and NGOs going into any emerging market and trying to determine who’s legit and who’s not. For instance in the US the Internal Revenue Service is the watchdog via the tax-exempt status of non-profits. If things seem inconsistent that would be typical for the situation.

I don't know where a good deed stops and a volunteer work starts. Having a kid come by your house to work on his English or standing up in front of a classroom. It's hard to imagne someone getting thrown out of Thailand for helping in their community.

And I still stand by what I posted but perhaps a little less stridently. I appreciate that some people might be here under visa conditions that they wouldn't want any risk. However so far it seems like most haven't really looked at ways to do this or thought of creative alternatives. There was someone who when through the WP process and coudn't get the sign-off and I respect that they tried.

Here's a link to a 35 page list of development organizations working in Thailand. Take one like Duang Prateep Foundation, go to their web site and there is information about applying for volunteer work.

I remain interested how the NGOs deal with this - I don't think in most cases their volunteers are getting WP. Whether they are just ignoring the law or working under special provisions - lets see what the NGOs say.

I also send a mail off to the Royal Thai Consulate in the US and asked them. Some other foregin nationals should try theirs.

This is from the FAQ at the Thai Embassy web site

Q: An NGO in Thailand has invited me to go there and work for them as a volunteer for 45 days during my school break. I will not earn any money in Thailand . I am a Belgian college student in Brussels . I understand that I do not need a visa, do I?

A: Although you will work as a volunteer, you do need a Non-Immigrant visa as well as the Work Permit. The NGO must be legally registered with the Thai authority, and that you need a recommendation letter from the NGO for your visa application and the Work Permit.

What I wonder about is the work I know many people do here, with established NGOs that don't get work permits - including me. My son did get the B Visa as I recall. It wouldn't surprise me if the NGO answer is something like "a work permit is required but no one bothers" which would be TIT.

Here are some other data points

AIDE Volunteer Web site

I submited the question to Global Volunteer Network to see what they say.

From Dragon Fly

OK since I'm not an expert in the legal issues I've fired off a mail to the CSR lead on my team and to the director of one NGO I know and ask them what is the best process. Also tomorrow morning I head up country to a school dedication with US Ambassdor John and various Thai officials will be there from Department of Education and NGOs - I'll ask all of them what their recommendation is.

I'll report back tomorrow evening.

And?

My CSR Lead sent a mail on the Mirror Foundation and we are waiting for their reply. I also sent a mail to the Managing Director at another NGO that brings foreigners into Thailand and asked her view on this. In addition I asked an accountant that does some work for me and does include work permits in her practice. Lastly I’m asking KPMG who does my work permit processing.

I chatted a little about this with people at this event I was at Friday but no one really knew anything really specific.

I suspect it will take a few days of email getting bounced around to get an answer. When I get info I’ll post it here.

Valjean, the legal position for the individual is 100% clear, any foreigner undertaking work {which is so broadly defined in law, that it is NOT a joke to say thinking about it is an offence} and even if the individual is being paid nothing they are required by law to hold a work permit, which is in their name, but issued to the organisation hiring them. In addition, the WP is location specific, so if a person wishes to work in two locations the WP must be duly registered there as well.

The only other option is to be provided by an exception statement by the Ministry of Labour which I've always been advised outside very special circumstances {e.g. Royally sponsored conference} are virtually unknown.

bassmaster50, I truly salute you for your attitude, in which you are not alone, but here's the reality, if you fell foul of an individual here they could decide to report you for your classes {as work even though unpaid} and claim you are depriving a Thai citizen of their livelihood, and without a WP to cover you then you would be found to be in breach of the law. It is not an issue of payment or even intent, if the accusation is made then you have no legal cover. No doubt you view this as far fetched, but if you or a member of your family annoyed the wrong person, it doesn't take long for this sort of thing to happen.

Regards

I didn’t mean to imply that it was legal to do whatever you want. I was just responding to the blanket assertion that it’s not legal to do volunteer work. There are established reputable organizations that offer volunteer positions and they don't require work permits. And while it's an assumption I’ll admit, I don't think their volunteers are working illegally. What I don't know is the specific provisions in the law that allow NGOs of some type to have foreign volunteers versus an individual and how the requirements might vary. Your point seems reasonable and well informed so I’ll accept that.

But still it begs the question: why not find an NGO in your neighborhood and work through them? How many people here who are complaining about this have really look at the alternatives? Again I’m not saying it’s ideal and maybe it discouraged some people but come on how hard is it to spend 15 min. on Google and send a few emails?

Yes this is a crazy law.But if people want to help this shouldnt matter.There are many old people around my home who have arthritis and pain ,mostly from being rice farmers.So I bought a massage machine and people all use it for free and many people claim they now have no pain first time in their lives.The local school had no soccer balls so I bought some,and also bicycles for kids who live far from school.When I go to the market I always bring something for the Burmese construction workers,and I also teach free martial arts classes for farmers to protect their crops from thieves and for women to protect themselves from assault.The point of this is not to say look what a good guy I am.I am not really such a good guy for one thing,and this is anonymous so there is no point in bragging.My point is,if you want to help people,there are ways to do so,with or without papers or work permits.

Amen.

Great. While you are at it, try to find a high-ranking officer of of the Labour Ministry. You know, the only ones who issue work permits. My guess is that most of the rest of the puu-yai, or even a foreign ambassador, say mai bpen rai, as if the National Laws do not matter. What does Labour Ministry say? I hope I am wrong.

I'll see what I can find out.

Okay, so I am a bit grumpy about this. I believe in good causes, even risked my life for one. However, the end does not justify the means. Just because it is for charity does not make it right or righteous or legal. Thailand - the Kingdom itself, the basic country and culture - generally does not want foreigners to help. Just say no.

It's a wacky policy to be sure. But in the end you should only volunteer when it

becomes legal.

It is legal and thousands of non-Thai's do it every year with approved agencies, NGOs and other organizations. If you don't want to do it - then don't. It's like everything else - if you choose to feel powerless and victim of circumstances well then I guess sitting on your bottom whining about the situation is one logical outcome.

This thread is another classic example of blaming someone else, here conveniently the Thais but it could be anyone and I sure back home it was, instead of just taking responsibility for what is you want and going and getting it. Heck there are kids within a stones throw of your house today who would love to have an English tutor. Do you need to ask permission?

There is only one thing that is stopping anyone on this newsgroup or any farang in Thailand from doing volunteer work – and that’s the will to do it. Anything else is just taking the mantel of victimhood and placing it firmly on you head.

It's legal according to whom?

Do the volunteers have work permits or work permit exemption letters issued by the Labor Ministry?

If they do, terrific. If they don't, it's illegal.

That's the point of the thread, it's not about volunteerism or jai dee-ness, it's about being legal.

I actually did volunteer to teach. I even went through the maze of beauracry to obtain a work permit, which in the end didn't happen because a higher up to my "employer" said no. End of discussion. End of topic. End of my volunteering.

If ONLY it was the will to do it that stopped volunteers... that would be great, but it's not. It's the Thais themselves. There's no shortage of volunteers willing to work for free, but aren't willing to do so illegally.

OK since I'm not an expert in the legal issues I've fired off a mail to the CSR lead on my team and to the director of one NGO I know and ask them what is the best process. Also tomorrow morning I head up country to a school dedication with US Ambassdor John and various Thai officials will be there from Department of Education and NGOs - I'll ask all of them what their recommendation is.

I'll report back tomorrow evening.

Okay, so I am a bit grumpy about this. I believe in good causes, even risked my life for one. However, the end does not justify the means. Just because it is for charity does not make it right or righteous or legal. Thailand - the Kingdom itself, the basic country and culture - generally does not want foreigners to help. Just say no.

It's a wacky policy to be sure. But in the end you should only volunteer when it

becomes legal.

It is legal and thousands of non-Thai's do it every year with approved agencies, NGOs and other organizations. If you don't want to do it - then don't. It's like everything else - if you choose to feel powerless and victim of circumstances well then I guess sitting on your bottom whining about the situation is one logical outcome.

This thread is another classic example of blaming someone else, here conveniently the Thais but it could be anyone and I sure back home it was, instead of just taking responsibility for what is you want and going and getting it. Heck there are kids within a stones throw of your house today who would love to have an English tutor. Do you need to ask permission?

There is only one thing that is stopping anyone on this newsgroup or any farang in Thailand from doing volunteer work – and that’s the will to do it. Anything else is just taking the mantel of victimhood and placing it firmly on you head.

Okay, so I am a bit grumpy about this. I believe in good causes, even risked my life for one. However, the end does not justify the means. Just because it is for charity does not make it right or righteous or legal. Thailand - the Kingdom itself, the basic country and culture - generally does not want foreigners to help. Just say no.

It's a wacky policy to be sure. But in the end you should only volunteer when it comes from your heart and the rewards will be in the doing. Everything else is just bs swirling around.

I’ve done volunteer work here twice before I move here. The first time I worked with an organization that placed me in a public school in Bangkok where I taught English for a few weeks. When I came back a few months later the school was delighted to have me come back and do it again working directly with them. Yeah I guess the legality of this is an issue but did I feel welcome and appreciated? You bet.

My son also volunteered here for 6 weeks a few years ago – in Trang and Bangkok. There is an organization Cross Cultural Solutions that brings in hundreds over the year and to the best of my knowledge people don’t get work permits. As I vaguely recall there is some letter you have to get the right kind of visa? I’ve met a lot of people from that organization as I have a friend that works there and know the director. The volunteers have almost universally a great experience.

A friend of mine went to his Permanent Residency application interview recently and one of the things they asked him was if he was doing any work to help Thailand.

Do a quick google for "volunteer thailand" and you see all the organizations doing this. I searched on "Mirror Foundation Thailand" a respected NGO and saw a link to their volunteer application. "Hi! We are happy to have you join us here in Thailand. Below you will find a link to our Volunteer Application Form."

Really people if it's in your heart to do this there are ways, there are NGOs that can make it happen for you and there are groups that would love to have you come help out - and in return show you kindness, respect and appreciation many times what you gave.

The school uniforms need to stay just they way they are.

I think values are just part of it and perhaps not the most important part. There are some non-negotiable values like honesty but there are others; religious, social, etc. that people don’t share but have good relationship. I read one research study awhile back that found that personality type was a more important factor than shared values.

There are personality or behavioral types; take Myers-Briggs or whatever, that I think are more fundamental than the values that are overlaid on the personality. Opposites can attract – and in fact I’ve learned in the workplace it’s essential I hire my opposites to balance the team. However, in a relationship there are some combinations of behavioral types that are more problematic than others.

That' how i feel today,bored bored and bored.

Sometimes i wish the UK wasn't such a sh*t hole these days, i could have been tempted back, but not now.

When in a High School literature class I had a teacher ask me what I thought about the book we were reading; “The Sun Also Rises” by Earnest Hemingway.

I answered in my smart-alecky teenage wisdom “I think it’s boring.”

He jumped on me and said “Maybe you’re boring the book”. What a dumbass statement I figured in my 16 year old wisdom.

Years later I reread the book and realized he was right.

Maybe it is becasue they want us to start drinking, and enjoying the good local produced stuff.

I am under the impression that Thai wines are taxed at the same absurd rates as imported wines. The government isn't hip to the health promoting qualities of wine and/or doesn't give a fig about anything but money for the beer/whiskey mafias.

Yes it's an excise tax not import (or maybe there is both). So Thai wines are expensive as well. There are a very few that are OK - nothing special. The Kao Yai wine area is a nice weekend visit not so far from Bangkok.

Index has a good selection (at least Lad Prao did)

Does anyone know where the 4th of July party in Bangkok will be? What time and cost for entry? They change the location every year..

Thank you,

Eric

Check with AMCHAM.

Here's the AMCHAM info:

JULY 5TH INDEPENDENCE DAY PICNIC

The Independence Day Picnic Committee has arranged a great family fun day!

We have Mattel Land back with lots of games and activities, bouncy castles, climbing hills, clowns and magician- not to mention free popcorn, balloons, cotton candy and Dairy Queen ice cream.

For those older children (and children at heart), field games include the egg toss, tug of war and games of chance and music from the Soi Dogs. We also have great food from Bourbon Street, Roadhouse BBQ, Sunrise Tacos, Witches Tavern and InterContinental Hotel plus hot dogs, hamburgers and apple pie and complimentary coffee from Coffeeworks. Plenty of food, so come hungry!

There are lots of games, a charity raffle, a motorcycle or 2, free massages, and lots of giveaways.

And... fireworks (weather permitting) at 7.15 pm.

Date: Saturday, July 5

Time: 2-8 pm

Venue: Click here: www.amchamthailand.com/ACCT/asp/general.asp?MenuItemID=114&SponsorID=376

Cost: Baht 200 advance tickets from AMCHAM or Baht 300 at the door. Children under 12 free.

THERE IS NO PARKING AVAILABLE ON SITE. YOU MAY PARK AT QUEEN SIRIKIT AND TAKE THE SHUTTLES THAT WILL RUN EVERY 15 MINUTES FROM THE MRT STOP, EXIT 1 OR TRAVEL BY TAXI. VOLUNTEERS ON HAND WITH MAPS AND DIRECTIONS.

Came here 3 years ago working for a multinational. Not on a golden expat package but a decent local plan. Had been through Asia a lot and here on business and liked it. It was a bit of luck to get the job - one of 2 farangs out of about 100 at that time. But it's worked out OK. However it's about time to either move on within the company, which means out of Thailand, or stay in Thailand and make my way here. I'm very happy with my life here so I've decided to stay and start a business. I've found that a great community of business owners who I can work and network with and that I'm coming to reaized how nice that is. It's been a fun adventure and it looks like there is more coming.

And for sure I agree with the ending of your post - so good to shake hands on that

While it’s tempting to answer your question explicitly I fear doing so just undermines my point. Once again you can’t make the point that it’s our decision without a value judgment thrown in on the relative equities of the relationship. As if all monogamous relationship by that one element alone must inherently have a more balanced contract between the partners. I think the nature of relationships is perhaps a lot more complex than that and the perceived inequities and balance of power between two people extends well beyond sex. Every one of us just makes a decision about that basket of gives and gets that comes with a relationships and from there gets on with life. Some end up happy with the deal and some don’t.