Dogmatix

I wonder what happened to this line of equiry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb9dT9STZXg.

The commentator says there were several witnesses that saw the headman's son there the night before and leaving on a boat in the wee hours of the morning. I suppose the witnesses could have been mistaken or changed their minds. Anyway, police seem to think the evidence from the CCTV at his Bangkok residence and that he was sitting an exam are reliable enough that there was no need to check his DNA and fingerprints or check flight lists that morning or confirm he was on a flight on a previous day.

They got the guys and now they will have their day in court. Videos, Witnesses, Confession, physical evidence and DNA. The suspects have lawyers who will be able to take their DNA again and compare it to that originally taken from the crime scene and analyzed in Thailand and Singapore.

It really is pathetic that faux internet forensic experts are going on with tiny bits of information, early police theories and imperfect reporting to come up with the most idiotic theories and then passing these off as plausible by pretending other facts don't exist.

The UK will not ask to become part of the investigation no matter how many people sign an internet petition. Like the rest of this nonsense, this is just not the way things work.

Most of you are no interested in justice, you just don't like who it turned out to be because you want to blame a Thai (specifically a rich one simply because he is rich) while others are angry and distrust the police. Get over it, the case is now going to be in the courts hands and it is so highly unlikely all the evidence including DNA (which can be verified again) are all a set-up.

While the police without doubt made mistakes it is just idiotic the way some our pretending. The want transparency but they can;t handle even receiving a little info. OMFG, so the police didn't know who did this originally and focused their attention on numerous suspects until landing on these two whose DNA matched ... this is the way many investigations go around the world. You take reports as gold when it suites your need for a conspiracy but even the most uninformed of those of us in Thailand know the press is crap and things are lost in translation.

The DNA matches and we all know as well as the police it can be verified again and again as long as the two suspects bodies are around. So go off on idiotic phone and unmissing video BS to make yourself feel better but it just comes off as desperate and illogical and dishonest.

Can you cite the reference that confirms DNA was sent to Singapore for testing?

This afternoon I saw Sorayuth on Channel 3 interviewing a police forensic scientist who was saying there was DNA found on Hannah's nipples from two males, neither of whom were David or the two suspects. I wonder what that is all about.

There is a Youtube clip in Thai of Khunying Pornthip saying the the Koh Tao case is a "cover-up" (kati ampran). Haven't seen any reports of that elsewhere.

If someone could just please explain to me why david DNA,/ blood is not on the hoe.

I would be grateful and be done with all of this.

Probably because as another TV member, who has some knowledge and experience in forensics, yesterday made clear that if DNA from 2 different people is on the same weapon it may be difficult to recover both, unless they would analyze every blood spat of the thousands available on the hoe.

How about finger prints on the hoe? Also where are the marks from the hoe on David's body? It made a much worse mess of Hannah.

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lets hope and pray that the british government get seriously involved.

Sadly there seems to be zero chance of that happening considering the Ambo's sickening statement the other day. Exemplary, is not a word that he should have uttered in reference to the police investigation. I feel so sorry for the families, they will/have been badly let down by the Embassy.

No, the man seems to be a complete clown. He could easily have used diplomatic language to convey the appropriate response, e.g. "We are pleased that Thai police appear to have concluded the case." Perhaps he is hopeful of a lucrative job in Thailand, just like his predecessor but one who broke his contract to go and work for Whisky Charoen.

If someone could just please explain to me why david DNA,/ blood is not on the hoe.

I would be grateful and be done with all of this.

because he wasn't stuck by the hoe?

The police commentary after the re-enactment said that one of the Burmese struck David on the back of the head with the hoe, presumably when he was in a prone position, although there is no sign of any of the type of hoe wounds found on Hannah's head. No reports that the back of the hoe was used either which might have cracked his skull and would certainly have caused massive contusion. In the initial in phase Pol Maj Gen Pornchai Sutheerakune, head of the Thai Institute of Forensic Medicine, said injuries to Miller's hands suggested there had been a struggle with his attackers before he died. There was no further mention of these marks or the struggle. The confession has it that one of the Burmese chopped at David with the hoe and dragged him to the water to drown him by himself, while his friend was presumably restraining Hannah. Doesn't make much sense.

I have read every post in every thread Re this topic but haven't posted as I have had nothing concrete to contribute.

However my wife (Thai) has just now read on social media, in Thai script, that an employee of the Samuii airport has found a record of the village headman (pooyai baan) catching a plane on the morning of the murder, but as we know he was always on the island. They believe that it was the son, Worat, the psycopathic murderous rapist and that the police actually advised him to do this (and not too clever an idea, as usual). It is posted on CSI LA, facebook.

If this is the case then someone should be able to get hold of cctv footage from that airport, the airport of arrival, Donsak pier or any other point on Samuii. And his phone records would also show his location; can phone records be accessed by subpeona? I do know PI's in Thailand can and do bribe phone company employees regularly to obtain phone records so hopeful that defense lawyers of the accused will get them one way or another.

The outrage amongst normal, honest and law-abiding Thais is palpable and I am hopeful some in the know will put aside their fear of gangsters and put evidence out there.

When the truth is known I do hope RTP (and all things Thai) apologists such as beetlejuice will take off their rose tinted specs and see past their family member's police connections and see how rotten the Thai system is.

Cheers.

What the post in CSI LA says is a friend told him the police put out a request asking if some one was on an airline passenger list to Bkk that morning but by the name of the village headman, not his son. Naturally the results were negative. CSI LA appeals for people working at the airline to give him information about passenger lists. However, if his theory is correct, the passenger list would have been doctored by now. I saw something that said the village headman had originally said his son left Koh Tao in the morning of the murders but later said he had left earlier. In that case he probably should be on an earlier passenger list. I doubt that family takes the magic bus to Bkk.

There is also a post of a photograph of the village headman's son with longish hair quite similar to one of the Burmese who was matched up in the CCTV footage. They claim he has been to be barber since then.

SINGAPORE DNA TESTING A MYTH?

Apart from contradictory police reports (which were more will be, are being than have been), I can`t fin anything to support that original genetic material, from the poor victims, was sent to Singapore. You`d think the Strait Times or similar would cover a Singapore Lab`s involvement.

What is the NAME of the Lab? Is it a commercial lab? If so, why would RTP prefer it to help offered by FBI?

There are no reports at all that any cross-matching of suspects DNA to material on the victims (RIP) was done in Singapore!

Not even from the police.

The DNA from 3 Burmese was crossed matched in impossibly record time by RTP Forensic Lab in BKK.

Some posters are even suggesting that it only matched the cig, not the semen?

Either way, please someone give me the name of the Singapore Laboratory.

I seem to remember the narrative was that Thai police had turned down the FBI's offer to help with DNA testing, saying they would send the samples to Singapore instead. Since then there was no further comment from the police about testing in Singapore. It seems likely that was said to fob off the Americans but there was never any intention to send anything abroad. It was originally suggested in the media that DNA testing would take some time in Thailand but miraculously they now seem able to get results in lightening speed and can even predict the results beforehand.

No evidence of human trafficking found in Trat's fishing industry

What a remarkably convenient finding. The gullible farangs will all believe this. End of story.

Police address criticisms over arrest of Myanmar suspects.

The headline is misleading. Although they may have addressed some of the other criticisms elsewhere, this article deals only with the confusion over the mobile phone. It is not clear whether the confusion came from police or journalists but The Nation (and others) reported on 4 Oct that the two told police that they had raped the woman and killed her, before stealing her mobile phone and other belongings, and destroyed the unit at the back of their living quarters. If this really were the case, a revision to the confessions would need to be arranged but that shouldn't be a problem.

Looking at one of the crime scene photographs, there is something that could be a phone next the articles of clothing on the beach in the foreground but the resolution is not high enough to say for sure exactly what it is.

1. They found the men first day, and questioned and released though they said they were close to the victims singing, why not they tested the DNA of these men on the same day, instead of chasing the scared farang men running away from Kho-Tao after the murder happened ?

2. How the verified DNA report, the samples from Victims body on the 8th and samples from the men on 15th. Who is the witness for this ? Police alone cannot give witness. Doctors and medical staff should witness the proof.

For 20 years, Thai Police have bad reputation from Saudi theft and murder incident. More than saving the tourism by pointing some scapegoat victims, they should come up with real truth to make sure Thailand is having a fair judicial system.

I feel sorry for the migrant staff here, they work for low salaries on maid/labor visa and no other benefits they can get except spending their money here. Please show some mercy on them rather than using them and making them scape goats!

A large number, if not most, including the two suspects are working without maid/labor visa or even passports. The police have been happily collecting monthly fees to look the other way with no concern for the threat to safety of tourists, Thais or to the workers themselves posed by a large undocumented foreign work force treated like slaves. If they commit a crime or something happens to them police don't even know their names or how many of them there were. For example no one knows how many Burmese and other undocumented foreign workers perished in the 2005 Tsunami. There are also many murders and other assaultes committed by and against foreign workers that never make the headlines. None of this matters to the men who are collecting 500 baht a month or, it seems, to their bosses all the way to the top.

But wasn't David's phone found at the scene of the crime originally?

There is something that could be a phone in one of the photos but the resolution is too low to blow it enough to see exactly what it is.

That punch blade thingie is a nasty weapon. Particularly at night when you don't know it's coming. A guy swings at your head and if he connects, instead of a blow to the head, you get a 1 inch deep / 1 inch wide puncture in your skull or neck (where major arteries are, and serious bad guys would know that). Looking at the diagram of wounds to David, most of the hits (v. possibly by punch blade) are by a leftie are on the right side of his neck. Who would have such a weapon? Well, anyone could buy one, but a policeman/tough guy would be someone likely to have such a weapon and know how to use it most effectively. Now consider for a moment, Sean's photo of the two men he says threatened him the morning after the crime. Both were tough guys and friends with each other. One is a local cop. The cop has not been DNA tested and can't be a suspect because he's a cop. Connect the dots.

upon further reflection, the murderer with a weapon like that could have been right handed if he attacked from the David's rear. That would fit my scenario (mentioned in an earlier post) of David first being diverted by a friend of the rapist, and then going to the aid of Hanna and possibly being attacked from the back while doing so.

There is also the possibility that David was held tight by a dog pack of several thugs while a tough guy whacked him several times with punch knife and then a few more times as he collapsed. David is supposed to have been involved in the altercation in the AC Bar referred to by McAnna which may have caused the locals to "lose face". Meanwhile others could have pinonned Hannah, so she couldn't move or cry out.

If somebody can answer this without outrageous and highly implausible scenarios then I will reconsider this being anything but an open and shut case at this point.

Putting aside all the other evidence against these two .... Two labs (Singapore and Thailand) got DNA results from the crime scene showing two people's DNA in the victim. These results are on file in both countries and have been shared with many people involved in the testing of samples. The two suspects match this DNA. As police and everyone one knows, as long as these two suspects exist there DNA can be taken and checked again by the suspects lawyers against the originals on file here and in Singapore which will also become part of the court's records and evidence.

Despite what anyone thinks the defense will have the option to recheck the DNA.

So, how do the police continue the cover-up once it goes to court and they no longer have a say?

Is it confirmed that the crime scene samples were also sent to Singapore for testing? I remember it being reported on 21 Sep that samples would be sent to Singpore (but not to the FBI) but didn't see anything confirming that had actually happened.

I'm hopping off the CSI LA bandwagon and admit to being a part of the frenzy for a while.

Yougivemebaby has stated pretty much what my instincts told me the very first time I read the story of the murders.

How CSI LA can ask, "why David has no cloths on?" and speculate that that the killers had forensics knowledge is sounding desperate.

When people have sex, they often get their clothes off- pretty simple. The condom found at the scene was most likely David's and the lack of DNA on the inside means his skin cells weren't traced/picked up in the testing process. Hannah's were able to be picked up, presumably there were more of them.

The phones- in my mind, that's been resolved.

I now believe that even Sean McAnna doesn't even know whether he was coming or going that night due whatever substances he indulges in. He listened to rumours, blatantly spread them and got himself offside with the locals.

The wounds on David still baffle me. Of course the hoe's sharp corners could inflict them but I would have thought the easiest way to swing a hoe down on someone would be with the leading edge first - I'd expect the wounds to be broader.

So these are just my thoughts. I'm still keeping an open mind and still have some things I'd like to see clarified. I encourage others to keep the questioning going if you feel something isn't right.

I think we should give CSI LA a break. His mind may be working overtime on some aspects of this case but give him credit for trying to examine all possible angles and being a Thai who is extremely concerned about a possible miscarriage of justice in his country and willing to post it all online. Even if he is overseas, there must be plenty of powerful Thais who would like to unmask him and make reprisals against him and his family.

If he makes a tiny spelling mistake in an English word, e.g. clothes, that is not in for a dig. How good is your Thai spelling?

If you are in here, keep up the good work CSI LA. Even if you are wrong and the police are right, your work might add pressure on the police to tighten up there case and explain convincingly exactly what happened on that horrible night, rather than just rely on confessions that must stand a 50% chance of being retracted before the trial, if the defendants are ever allowed access to decent legal representation.

Regarding the phone the police seem to have changed their original story that it was Hannah's phone found in the bushes now to David's phone. In one of the crime scene photographs on Liveleak showing David's body still in the water there seems to be something that could be a phone on beach next to the pair of shorts. The resolution is not high enough to be sure exactly what it is.

Since scenarios are being trotted out willy nilly, here's mine:

David and Hanna in bar, but not always sitting together. Thai slickster asks her 'that your fren?' She says 'yes.' then they get in to the bar conversation which has been repeated 5 million times in Thailand, and she laughs as says, "oh, I see, fren means boyfriend, not just friend. In that case, no he's not my boyfriend."

Thai guy is determined to go all the way, and may have even bragged to one or more of his buddies about it. That would explain, when he got rebuffed later, why he went ballistically savage.

Fastforward to murder scene. The two farang were not necessarily making love. They may not even have been making out. Finding an unused condom on a party beach is not unusual. It could readily have already been there.

Thai guy(s) walk with them or catches up with them. All parties are still in a comeraderie joking mood (still drunk). Thai guy takes her aside (every guy on the prowl knows one of the first thing to try to do when seducing a girl is to get her physically away from her b.f. or protector). Thai guy's friend distracts David. Thai guy 1 puts the moves on Hanna. She resists (and probably calls out). David notices and tries to extract her (btw, Sean said David was 'a true hero and tried to save Hannah'). Actually Sean was likely nearby also (or came to see what the commotion was about), as evidenced by him suffering a wound on his arm which was identical to the multiple wounds suffered by David.

As David tried to extract Hanna from the clutches of the Thai, he's confronted by Thai #2 who is left handed and has a punch knife (which explains David's peculiar multiple wounds on the right side of his body). Those wounds were not caused by a hoe, and even the cops corroborated that early in their investigation, though they changed their story when the Burmese scapegoats were micro-managed in the reenactment.

David was killed while Hannah was being held (probably her mouth covered) by Thai #1. When Hannah still didn't submit, she was raped by both Thai men and then bludgeoned with the back end of the hoe.

I think your rough scenario is quite plausible but I would suggest also considering the presence of Thai#3 and Thai#4++. Normally they operate in packs. That would have made it easier to subdue Hannah very tightly. A dog pack might even have been able to hold down both with or without guns to their heads and raped Hannah before murdering both.

Exactly. David and Hannah were likely having sex (as suspects even said). They probably had NO idea what hit them. It was so fast they had NO chance to even react. Or you bet your ass those little burmese would have marks on them.

With your infinite wisdom could you please explain to me two things - 1) Motive, 2) How the two killed David. Give me your reconstruction of how these two managed to take him down and keep the girl quiet at the same time. Thanks. These two/three were dna tested in the following days. How come they did not have any bruises/cuts from a fatal encounter with a 24 yr 1.90m man. Hmmm

How do you know they do not have bruises/cuts on their bodies ? Have you seen them without a shirt on ? And they used a weapon to kill the victims with, David and Hannah hadno chance to defend themselves. They were killed defenseless and naked so how could they do anything to stop it.

I have a background in forensics. I studied it and also worked in a medical examiners office. But I am by no means an expert. But with my experience this is the likely scenario.

Killers sneak up on David and Hannah. (Remember David and Hannah were at bars the whole night before going to the beach though I can't confirm they were drunk because I didn't see their toxicology report). David is the first to be hit in the back of the head. He is their biggest threat and easiest target. With a powerful and swift blow(s). It wouldn't take a pro baseball player to knock someone out with that hoe. Knocked unconscious. As far as how Hannah didn't scream many scenarios could have happened after that. but I didn't see signs of defensive wounds on her arms (however I did not see any photos from the medical examiners office either to confirm this).

So most likely scenarios are.

1. David is hit so hard that his head is thrashed into Hannahs (if they were in the missionary position) and either knocks her out or stuns her. Before she has the chance to come to. The other(s) silence her by covering her mouth. (unlikely as she would have had time to scream or fight)

2. David gets hit once or twice then the weapon is immediately turned on Hannah before she has a chance to scream. (which seems more likely with the suspects size not wanting to take the chance that David can get up and defend himself) (most likely) It wouldn't take long to get a couple of powerful blows to the head without Hannah realizing what's going on or being so shocked she's stunned. Then hitting her enough to knock her out or stun her to where she can't fight back.

I'm saying this because there's no way one person could have dragged david out to the water alone. I don't think one of those little guys could have held hannah down alone unless she was so inebriated she would almost be unconscious. It would take at least two guys to pull David out into the water. So Hannah was either unconscious already (likely) or being held down and her mouth covered (I don't think that's likely though). SO they could hit him more and/or drag him into the water. There is a possibility there was a third person who was helping them but it doesn't seem like there is evidence as of now.

I believe Hannah was unconscious (or dead ) when the subsequent sexual assaults occurred. Again, I didn't see any defensive wounds or any marks consistent with holding her down. The suspects statements also verify they took turns with her and shared a cigarette. Not easy to smoke a cigarette with no hands if you're trying to fight someone to hold them down. After she was sexually assaulted, she was likely finished off with the hoe. It looks like the sharp end of the hoe! To kill her so as not to be able to identify the killers.

It's also possible that she was so shocked and she was too scared to scream. but I don't think this is likely. I think she would have had a good chance to fight off one guy or scream knowing how close she was to the resort.

Unfortunately motive is very primitive. Rape. The suspects admit they were drinking for several hours. Who knows what else they were on. However they were at the beach playing for many hours (not rare for Thai's) but they did this after a shift at their job. They had a LOT of energy. Maybe they took yaba? Not being of sound mind and seeing people have sex sparked some kind of primitive response to go and get it. Remember being drunk and making bad decisions? This was a REALLY bad non pre-meditated decision. It was opportunistic. They found some weapons and went and got it.

I don't think this is the first time, or would have been, the last time something similar (but not exact) has happened with these guys. Rape in Thailand or SE asia seems like it's almost an accepted part of their culture (watch Thai soaps - DISGUSTING AND AWFUL).

Again if there were any marks on the suspects, I didn't see any. But David likely didn't fight at all. Unfortunately I think is the same for Hannah. They swabbed about 2000 people for DNA but they only claim to have actually tested 200. Which was smart because that was their only lead at the time. (They should have swabbed everyone before leaving the island though!).

The other wounds from Davids face and chest which some claim to be by a knife is not true. All but one looks like post mortem wounds. It could have been that when David was dragged into the water, he hit the rocks and resulted in puncture wounds. It doesn't look like it was from a knife. There are also scrapes (consistent with a rock or dragging near the wounds too) Look at the photos closely. You can see it. Another CSI LA guy claims it the knife punctured his chest. If you look at the crime scene photos from liveleak you can see it's not very deep. DEEP but not knife deep. It's just from the photo angle you can't see it was just under the skin. Not a stab wound. If the waves or tide was going in or out (I didn't check the tide schedule) he would have been easily thrown against the rocks he was so close to. The wound on his chin is the only one that looks like he was alive.

I'm not willing to say this is exactly how it happened but I would bet it's close.

A very very tragic end to some young and innocent tourists lives. I feel bad for their friends and family. I hope they can someday heal from this and share their experience with others to help avoid these tragedy's.

I concede you have an imaginative mind. A rape motive is not anger, so I don't buy-in to your analysis. You think these young boys are going to kill two people so they can rape the female? And that it's premeditated? Cold, calculating ruthlessness? I think with your forensic background you've been watching too much TV crime fiction.

The most likely scenario relates to McAnna's account. The catalyst would be Hannah rejecting an overture and the man taking offence. Rejection leads to loss of face and anger. The rape was 'incidental' to the need to assert power over his victim. Classic raison d'etre.

If you read the factual accounts of previous RTP cover-ups when influential families are involved you might understand why posters are sceptical that this case is different. If these Burmese were involved, the locals would have grassed them straight away. The fact that the head of a national NGO (a Thai lady) supports the view that they are innocent, speaks far more volumes than either of our speculations.

I think you've outlined the only way that two very small guys could have accomplished this without help. but it would have required a lot of daring and luck for two drunk midgets to be able to knock out both David and Hannah with one blow, so that they could finish off David and drag him into the sea leaving Hannah stunned, although taking the risk that she might have come to and escaped. There would have been a big risk in this plan that they would have failed to incapacitate David with one blow or that Hannah could have run away. I rather doubt they would have taken the risk of letting Hannah get away and perhaps they knocked out David first and brutally killed Hannah immediately before finishing off David and dragging him to the sea to make sure she would not escape. The horrible crime photographs suggest that he poor girl could easily have been raped after she was murdered which would have been the more logical sequence for these two small guys. However, as another poster pointed out, their confessions indicate that they killed David first, then raped Hannah, then murdered her. That leaves only your scenario that they managed to knock Hannah out simultaneously or soon after knocking out David and took the risk of leaving her stunned while both of them worked on David.

Possible but it seems much more likely there were more than two attackers which may or may not have included the two arrested Burmese. Another issue is that David's wounds look too neat and uniform to have been inflicted by roacks which usually abrade a lot of skin when you hit them. The confessions seem to suggest they were made with the hoe which seems inconsistent with the wounds and the lack of David's DNA on the hoe.

Got a cop in the family. Senior Sergeant Major. One of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, and totally corrupt to the core.

That rank seems to be the sweet spot for police corruption and criminality. The old soakers who have been in the force for 20 years but too dumb or lazy to pass the officer exams. Know all the dirty tricks. More often than not when you read about a cop being arrested for murder drug dealing etc it's going to be a Pol Snr Sgt Major. They are also the ones trusted by the senior officers to do the enforcement and dirty work of the big police syndicates.

The two suspects were seen to be very exhausted as they have been questioned throughout the night.

I wonder why they didn't just say they would remain silent at this time and only make statements in court like all Thai gangsters and politicians say when they are questioned by police. Ouch! Oh! Now I know.

I would guess that the one referred to ask Saw, Cho, Cholin, Soren etc is actually Kyo Lyn or similar. With all the grandstanding about preparing for AEC, Thai officials' linguistic skills in English and the languages of neighbouring countries remain infantile.

2,000 unregistered migrant workers paying 500 Baht a head... That's 1,000,000 Baht a month. How many police officers are normally on the island working full-time? Sounds like a generous monthly bonus to me. No wonder a lot of the photos depicting police with high tech mobile phones can be seen over the past couple of weeks.

I think I read that there were 6 full time BIB there but I could be wrong.

"Koh Tao's Thailand's other little secret: police extortion"

Alien labourers are not limited to Koh Tao, nor is police extortion.

The mad monk seems to have a point here. It is also rather unfair to farmers of other crops, such as rubber.

"Tourists now have become more confident about safety on the island, and they are confident the authorities can provide safety for them,"

555

$$$ £££ €€€ ¥¥¥ ฿฿฿

Anyone who thinks these Burmese Scum are innocent are as thick as too short planks and are living in cloud cuckoo land

Well done to the Thai authorities for a job well done!!!

Innocent or guilty they were entitled under Thai law to the right to remain silent and only make statements in court. This right was denied them. They are also entitled to legal representation. They were also entitled to the right not to be abducted to a secret place and tortured which may also have been denied them.

Imagine the difference in treatment by police, if these were two of Chalerm's sons who got a bit too spirited after a night out.