plachon

We go to the agricultual fair every year at KKU,

Can you please tell me when they have this? Thanks!

Usually about the last week in January each year. This year it nicely coincided with the KK Marathon where several thousand people bust a gut round the city, including myself. The Ag Fair makes a good day out, and there were some good displays and great food on sale. Make a note of it for next year and enjoy.

I am confident that many of us would rate Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra as one of the world's most able statesmen.

Yeah, he's getting right up there alright, Payne. World class. Anyone selling shares in Sycophants United FC?

My comment about the jokes in the 70's was in reference to Northumberland's building of the Kilder (sp?) reservoir in response to drought situations. Heralded as a great white elephant at the time it recently proved itself in one of our occasional droughts in England by ensuring Northumberland had no water shortage at all.

Even in a wet country like England making provision for water shortage is essential, so the Thais need to shape up on this subject, especially as China is reducing the amount of the stuff coming into the country.

What do you mean: "The Thais need to shape up on this subject"? If you mean Thailand hasn't got enough reservoirs, dams and other water storage structures, then I'm afraid you're sadly misinformed. Kielder Water would seem like a mere puddle next to the Thai behemoth reservoirs around the country and there are literally dozens of them over 100 km2. I'd hazard a guess that Britain's entire area given over to water storage reservoirs is less than one tenth of that in Thailand, yet Thailand is actually a wetter country than UK. (Check out rainfall stats for London and BKK for comparison)

But, if you mean, Thailand has severe problem with water management (especially demand-side), then you would be starting to get nearer the truth. At the moment, impoverished farmers are denied water for their dry season crops from irrigation reservoirs in the North and Central Plains, so it can be diverted to the Turkish baths and 5 star hotels of Bangkok, while Isaan villages have to beg for water from the authorities in April and May many years, while a few kms away, the wealthy have their Mercs washed daily and leave their sprinklers on their lawns all day. Water, or lack of it, isn't the problem so much as uneven distribution, short-sighted & inefficient agencies involved and good ol' KOR-RAP-CHAN.

However, you're barking up the right tree that China's unilateral damming of the Mekong and attempts to dam the Salween mean bad news for Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam in the not-too-distant future.

I thought the Thais would feed an extra mouth if need be? Maybe they only do this up country, thus no beggars.

Anyway, Cambodia is far worse for beggars, they follow you and grab onto your arm. I bought a big bag of sweets to give them. Everytime I handed a couple out I got looks of disgust and frowns.

They were purely after money, and even had the cheek to turn the sweets down.

You never know if your doing the right thing, so fack the lot of em now.

Terrible isn't it medicine box - you buy a big bag of sweets for the animals, sorry beggars, and the ungrateful little tykes turn down your generous offerings of jelly tots. They should have been grovelling on the floor with gratitude and obsequiance at such loving kindness, eh? I don't know, What is the world coming to when a beggar wants money? Bloody cheek!

But Mr Great White Tourist, don't you ever stop to consider for one moment, with all the benefits that a Western education can provide, that if you (beggar the thought) had been born a Cambodian orphan of US bombing or Pol Pot or a landmine, and hadn't eaten since yesterday, that a facking murray mint tossed at you by a dollar loaded farang, is hardly going to hit the spot in the depths of your growling stomach. Even a starving beggar has a bit of pride left.

Have a nice day eberneezer.

I could use a little help here, please. I have a small place in Khon Kaen, 6 rai. After seeing the ungodly amount of pesticides used by all farmers here, I dont want to eat anything I dont grow myself. For 8 years we are growing just enough for the 2 of us. I use compost for fertilizer and laundry water for pesticide. We still have lots of bugs, but they dont eat that much and as we arnt selling any produce, it doesnt matter that there is some damage. We dont have any problem with the fruit trees, but do with vegetables. Can anyone tell me where I can buy carrot seed? Also, we have access to chicken manure, but root crops dont do well in a nitrogen rich soil. Any suggestions? I would like to try using lime. Where can I buy it and what is the Thai word? Would lime be good on the trees also? I cant grow cucumbers. I notice the Thais can but it seems they require huge amounts of chemicals, any suggestions? How do I make a solution using sadao leaves? Sorry to ramble on so, please bear with me. The farming is going ok, I just want to improve things so, any help will be appreciated. Tom Salarak Khon Kaen

Hi Tatom. Good to know there's other people out there worried about what's gone on the veggies one buys in the market. Most people would probably be scared shitless if they knew the amount of dirty dozen pesticides poured on their food each year in Thailand. So being able to grow most of your own food is admirable, especially if you can manage it in the rainy season, when leafy vegetables (and tomatoes) seem to be an impossibility to grow in Isaan, bar good old pak boong (morning glory). Luckily there are lots of semi-wild vines and creepers about a sgood alternatives (e.g. pak dam leung).

Interested to read you pour laundry water on your veggies (or is it only the fruit trees?). Apart from the nitrates and phosphates (bang goes the organic side!), There are a lot of trace chemicals (like the scents and condtitioners), which can't be too healthy. I'd be a bit cautious therefore using it on anything that was going to be eaten directly, but maybe you use "Super Green" washing powders/detergents?

As for carrot seed, it is available in most of the bigger seed outlets in Khon Kaen (try around the ordinary bus station) and there are one or two varieties. Don't even consider planting until after the rainy season and they prefer very light, free-draining soil, so clays are out. Also, go easy on the compost/manure or they'll sprout unsightly side roots and not get the one long tap root you want. Let us know if you have success next dry season! Lime is available in any builders merchant shops and some agricultural merchants at 2-5 baht / kg. It's good stuff for most Isaan soils so be liberal with it all over your land - fruit trees, the lot!

Yes, I've never had much success with cucumbers either, but maybe regular doses of neem extract would work in deterring the bugs. Again, it can be bought in the agricultural supply shops around the bus station, particulalry one on the far corner (nearest sala glang) which seems to support alternative pesticides. If you want to make your own neem extract, leaves work to a ceertain extent I believe, but there is far more of the active ingredient (azadirachtin or summat like that?) in the seeds, and they're quite a hassle to collect, dry and grind, unless you've got loads of time on your hands!

Good luck!

Hi thanks for the intrest

large intensive livestock farms ed

Well I would'nt call myself that large 70 head inc calfs, as as for intensive our cows are'nt crouped up in small pens or kept inside for a large part of the year.

They have a large padock of about 7 rai with ample shade and water,are fed on mostly organic products and are not injected with any growth improvers or hormons (but if any one knows where i can get some let me know ).

directly reaching a local watercourse, (apart from in heavy rainfall events?) I suspect it will be leaching down into the water table and polluting that with nitrates and nitrites

Personnaly I dout it as there are no water courses, as for leaching into the water table its possible, but to be honest 9 months of the year 90% of our waste evaperates (thats probably bad as well??). We have our own bore the water table is about 60meters down, dont know if this makes a differance, and when you think that there are no main drains here every house has its own septic tank these have open bottoms allowing all the liquid waste to drain into the soil, you multiple that buy all the houses!!, also animal waste is used extensively as a fertilliser here mostly chicken shit but cow as well, this is spread before the rains to let it wash into the soil, surely this is better than synthetic fertiliser, or would you advocate no using any.

and methane production from the cows themselves

Ok the biogas thing is worth looking into, but I dont really think it would be ecomomically feasable for me, the only use i'd get from it would possably be cooking, as for my"local, provincial alternative energy office/site" have we got one, would be supprised, would they have a "demonstration biogas digestor" if they did you would have to pick me up off the floor.

Anyway the way I see it i'm not having any positive effest on "volatalization of nitrous gases into the atmosphere" as i have'nt created and cows mearly relocated them, even the calfs would have been born but some where else, what about the herds of wilderbeast would killing some of them off help ? was this why the american's slaughtered the bison ? (sorry a bit facitious, could'nt help it)

making silage from the corn or possibly sorghum(kao fang

Done the corn silage before, its still about scale, we use about a ton and a half a day, I'd have to cut the corn, shred it, store it, and then transportit to the cows for feeding. thats 45 ton a month, also what are thee enviromental impacts with making silage, basicaly you rot it without an air supply, does thin not give off gas, and the liquid waste has to drain away some where. The cow fang bit is interesting there is a posibllity, that if I used the whole plant to make silage and then giving it as a suplement not a staple.

All the rest, the grass we give is called Pangular (prob spelt wrong only ever heard it called that in thai never seen it writen down) it got about 12 % protien corn silage 8-10% cost me 55 satang a kg

We but our concentrate straight from the factory, send the lorry down once or twice a month we use a brand called Thunder thais pronounce it Tander, based in Nakon Nayok, concentrate costs any where from 150-200+ bht a 30kg bag, there is also CP and Thai feed Mills Group (Pure Pride) both in Saraburi Tander is the cheapest, anyone know any others please let me know. Used to make my own ( before you ask - Scale)and many small farmers here still do, there would be good buisiness opertunities for some one doing that sort of thing small sacle food and silage production all the Raw materials are grown fairly localy, and you can by small scale food pellet making machines (dont know how much), get your self a lorrry for bulk raw material pickups and deliveries, and as long as you're in the righ area away to go, Thought of it myself, maybe after the new farms finished, built my fish farm, converted my land to grow grass, and bought a biogas digestor I'll give it a go

Does the goverment subsadise milk, dont honestly know, we get 11.35 bht a kg from the local co-operative they sell it straight to Mali (manily condensed milk).

If anyone is really interested or is thinking about setting any sort of farm you, drop me a line and you can come up and have a look, maybe stay a few days (dont expect the ritz though I dont live in a purpose built Falang house but a converted Thai one, but it comftable, hot water electricity,fans, no air though exept in my bedroom). I dont propose to be an expert on all types of farming but have friend who are into everything, we also deliver chicken feed so know lots of people in that as well.

Just been away for a couple of weeks so only just got a chance to look over your post Random.

I think a lot of the issues about what makes a "sustainable" farm via a vis purely a maximum economic return business, revolve around balancing the needs to make a reasonable income from one's investment and the external costs (often hidden), that one puts on the environment by ones operation. I'm not in the least condemning or denigrating your operation because I think you're pretty well-tuned to some of the dangers that can exist from stepping up the scale of production on a limited piece of land and then relying more on external resources for profitability. But the fact remains that any piece of land does have a "carrying capacity" for the amount of livestock of any type that it can support and this varies with the animal type and breed. The agroecological characteristics of the land will determine this level and the same is true for us humans too. A little country like Holland, for example, now has an "ecological footprint", 17 times bigger than it's actual size. This means, to keep the Dutch at their present level of consumption and standard of living, 17 Hollands are needed! Similarly, your farm's ecological footprint is now far bigger than it's actual area, not only in consumption of external resources, but also in externalising the environmental pollution produced by the herd of dairy cattle (extremely specialised animals bred by societies like the Dutch (Friesian Islands) over centuries in a temperate climate and not ideally suited to the tropical environment of Thailand).

However, the fact remains that they are here thanks to massive govt. support and subsidies (the Dutch can still produce milk cheaper than the Thais, but then they're subsidies by EU too!) over the last 25 years and there is a domestic dairy industry artificially created in a non-dairy consumption society. Such is the power of politics and globalisation! It is therefore important not to lose sight of the past or the future, in moving towards a more environmentally form of farming. In the case of the tropics, this means more internalisation of resources and release of pollutants. Hence, those "90 %" (the exact figure is proibably unimporant) of wastes currently being evaporated into the atmosphere as methane and nitrous gases (both greenhouse pollutants) could be reduced considerably by the use of a biogas digestor. The fact that you're considering now the potential costs and benefits is great. The info is out there with a bit of time spent for searching. I saw on the google search I did that there is a demo site for biogas funded by FAO at a Pitsanolok abbattoir. However, I feel certain there are bound to be some closer sites to Nakhon Sawan than that. THe German development organisation (GTZ) have been particularly active in supporting biogas in Thailand, so they might be worth contacting for info of methods, costs and existing sites.

Anyway, sorry if this is a bit long-winded and good luck with lowering your "footprint" on the earth.

Yes, I second that JB Good. Stroll is the bigger man for admitting his quick trigger finger in condemning these poor Burmese people forced to come into Thailand through appalling conditions in their own country, only to be taken advantage of in LOS. My hat also goes off to Pi Sua for patiently taking the time to explain further some of the typical scenarios the unfortunates around Mae Sot experience once over the border.

To risk all that for 50 B/day (which they may or may not see) speaks volumes about the hellhole they've come from, yet still people condemn them for it! Beyond belief, but at least Stroll is a bit better informed about the seamier side of (almost) unseen Thailand now.

Note, they mention a "theatre in Siam Square" as being ripe for collapse. Well that narrows it down to just 3 cinemas to avoid for starters. You'd think when they doubled the cost of film ticks a few years back, the owner's would have the grace and foresight to put a few more reinforcing beams in place too, rather than just a computer ticketing system and a few new seats.

gentile gendarmarie

How do you know they are all gentiles, might be a few Jews there as well, doubtfull I know but there might be.

Was worried that if I wrote "genteel", Mr Angry Racist BNP supporter from Tun. Wells would get the hump, but if I used "gentle", a miffed gendarme from Calais would post something like: "Are you calling me a maggot?". So "gentile" it was, knowing the strong French support for Klaus Barbie and his poisonous legacy lurking in the Le Pen supporters, now being aimed at anyone with a hint of "foreigness" about them.

PS Ned, with sub-people like Highlander and his ilk about, drop-kicking into touch is a piece of piss.

Wouldn't it be great if the UK immigration could give those darn Afghan refugees creeping through the Channel tunnel a good gang banging, before shipping them back to France, where the gentile gendarmarie should strip search them, give 'em another hard rogering, then pack 'em in cattle trucks back to that ###### camel-land

In these polictically correct days I assume you mean men as well as women.

The whole darn lot - men and women, old and young. Human rights is too darn good for refugees, especially economic migrants, don't you know Maerim.

Too right Johpa! Wouldn't it be great if the UK immigration could give those darn Afghan refugees creeping through the Channel tunnel a good gang banging, before shipping them back to France, where the gentile gendarmarie should strip search them, give 'em another hard rogering, then pack 'em in cattle trucks back to that ###### camel-land they came from. That'd stop 'em from coming round here and bludging off us and taking our houses and dole and polluting our children with their Muslum teaching. Yeah, Thailand's got the right idea on this one! Hic-hic!

The only way to get people off their oil addiction, is to push up the price of fuel to an unaffordable level, and at the same time, subsidising clean and green alternatives. More bicycle lanes, like they've done in Holland, is a good start. That country is enlightened when it comes to getting people out of their cars, and there are lots of salient lessons to be had in Netherlands. Trust the sensible Dutch! 

Plachon for president!!!

But on a more serious note, there are indeed many things of interest in the Netherlands. But one can on the other not compare the Netherlands with Thailand, the Netherlands are a democracy for instance, Thailand uses a system where people vote for those in power after which those in power won't give a hoot about the electorate.

Thailand needs tax on petrol and a decent government...

Dutchy

Dagnabit Dutchy - and I thought you were seroius there for a millisecond! But at least it proves my point about the Dutch being sensible (sometimes too bloody sensible for their own good, but that's another story for another thread).

Still, in an ideal multi-national country, I'd still put a Dutchie in charge of the Transport Ministry. (and a Swede in charge of Defence, a Swiss in Finance, a Dane in Energy, a French in Culture, a German in sport, a Canadian in Labour and a Thai in charge of the Minsitry of Sanuk ). All other Ministries would be banished, but still haven't decided who to install as President (by the way, Brits and Yanks would be banished until they get <deleted> out of Iraq . Any ideas?

(Think I've just started a new thread anyways..

Maybe if England adopted the same policies it wouldn't be over run with parasites bleeding it's welfare system dry and denying it's own people the chance to live in government owned housing as opposed to shelters and bedsits

Typical small minded petit Englander. Obviously you failed to comprehend what this news report was actually reporting, or would you have been so indigant about all those bleedin foreigners' taking away the very soil from under your feet back in Angleland. shocking ain't it? Hope you've registered your vote with the BNP for the upcoming European elections Mr angry.

Thanks for your full and interesting answer Random. Was interested about the waste dilemma, as it is something that is always a problem with large intensive livestock farms wherever in the world. In European countries there are very strict guidelines and farmers are regularly fined for breaking them. I've seen and read about numerous rivers wiped out by "accidental" leakages of farm slurry into water courses in UK., and I see the same problems occurring here now without the regulatory framework in place to avoid it.

Pollution may either be acute (bloody obvious when fish start keeling over in the local river) or chronic (gradual and harder to spot, unless one happens to have known the area for years). In your dairy's case, although the slurry may not be directly reaching a local watercourse, (apart from in heavy rainfall events?) I suspect it will be leaching down into the water table and polluting that with nitrates and nitrites. It may eventually be reaching nearby streams and rivers underground, causing a degree of eutrophication (over fertilization). Your suggestion of fish ponds could be a sound one, where the waste is recycled back into protein (via primary production first) from fish (= extra income and profit for the farm). On-farm recycling would reduce your ecological footprint no end!

The other main present source of pollution of your farm will be volatalization of nitrous gases into the atmosphere and methane production from the cows themselves. Can't stop the latter farting, but can reduce/ avoid the former by building a biogas digestor on the farm. An extra expense, but can pay for itself eventually through production of methane gas for heating (little need in Thailand!) , lighting and cooking. Have seen them in action at several sites years ago, but not recently. So did a Google search of "biogas, thailand" and came up with 11,800 sites!! So, no shortage of reference material, but the problem is sorting the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Might be better to start at your local, provincial alternative energy office/site, which probably has a demonstration biogas digestor working. They'll also give an indication of costs and will probably be able to give locations of other sites. Worth a try if you're interested....

On feeds, have you thought about making silage from the corn or possibly sorghum(kao fang)? I'm no expert on cattle feeds, but this would seem a sensible way of reducing off-farm expenses and utilising on-farm resources more efficiently? However, I appreciate the limtiations and your reasons for using the off-farm convenient ready bailed grass (what variety is it?). How much does a bag of dairy concentrate cost these days, and if the price of milk wasn't subsidised by govt, would this effect the profitability of the operation greatly?

Anyway, good luck and hope the upgrade goes well.

Plachon has pointed out how cheap fuel ruins the environment (and even the Pentagon sees that this will result in the biggest threat yet to world peace). But cheap fuel also ruins countries' economies. We get to depend on it, because subconsciously we have made lifestyle decisions based on fuel costs today. Whenever the price rises, as it inevitably must, a recession is triggered off. But any government anywhere in the world who did what is necessary (probably at least a 50%, yes 50%, rise in fuel prices) would be slung out by the voters at the next election. So they duck the issue.

We are lucky that we have lived and are living in this day and age. Life was a lot tougher for our grandparents and all generations before them. And it will be lot worse for our grandchildren and all generations after them (but there may well not be many of those). How charming.

Dunno about the Pentagon saying that, but Dr David King, the UK govt's chief scientist, said in a little publicised statement a few months ago that the US policy on global warming (or rather, lack of it) and addiction to oil was far more of a threat to the world than international terrorism. He was subsequently told to button it by Tony B.liar!

The only way to get people off their oil addiction, is to push up the price of fuel to an unaffordable level, and at the same time, subsidising clean and green alternatives. More bicycle lanes, like they've done in Holland, is a good start. That country is enlightened when it comes to getting people out of their cars, and there are lots of salient lessons to be had in Netherlands. Trust the sensible Dutch!

6.  Forecast - stores like 7-eleven will be the next to be curfewed (also a foreign owned multinational)

I think 7-11 is owned by the CP group which is one of Thailands most profitable and successfull companies, owned for the most part by one very wealthy Thai family. No doubt Mr T also has a substantial shareholding in this public company. The use of the 7-11 name is merely a licence and does not indicate ownership by a foreign company.

You're spot on Digger - CP owns the franchise on 7-11s and there's no way Mr Big would try and order those closed before............. before? even lose one minute's trading time per day. Personally, I think they should all be closed immediately for clear breach of advertising standards. I mean, fooling the consumer into thinking they're open from 7.00 am to 11.00pm, then staying open 24/7/365! Wouldn't get away with it anywhere else, bar China. Until such time as they open according to their stated namebrand, I'm giving this store a miss!

Wonder how many obliging farangs have been sold plots of land that already belonged to the family? Easy to do, eh?

Probably an easier earner than the stale sick buffalo ploy, as it appeals to the farang's sense of a "good investment". 300 bucks a rai is no cheaper than grade C agricultural land back in UK, and probably more expensive than land in US. It's only "cheap", if you intend to build on it, but for farming rice, it'll take about 10-15 years to pay off the investment. Not bad I suppose...............

Mr Thaksin told reporters on Thursday that he had to heed the advice of Mr Chamlong. "When he warned me that the lottery is a vice and a sin, I had to listen," the prime minster said.

Should I take that to mean Mr. Big will be disbanding the Government Lottery Office soon and the bi-monthly drawings will be a thing of the past, or it is only the Liverpool purchase funding lottery that is a vice and a sin?

Policy consistency never was his strong point Ovenman

Quit subsidizing fuel prices and let fuel prices float, that should help.

whack the price up a bit ! but then the folks who live out in the country and have to drive longer distances get hit harder.

Does anyone know which countries also subsidize petrol?

Let the petrol prices be set by the market, prices will increase and the Thais will have to find a way to make their products competitive. It's high time to grow up for the Thais...Any thoughts?

Dutchy

Very few countries are crazy enough to directly subsidize fuel, but lots, in fact most countries, indirectly subsidize it, by refusing to tax the environmental impacts of fuel use. Hence, most of the fuel tax revenue gets ploughed back into the general economy, like roads and airports, thus contributing to greater fuel usage and worse air quality, etc. If there was a 5 % environmental duty on every litre of fuel sold, it would probably make a lot of people think twice about buying gas guzzlers AND would provide a tonne of revenue to actually make the country a bit more inhabitable - cleaner air, water, more forests, parks that kind of thing and ultimately, a living planet to pass on to our children. Probably a bit challenging for the boys who wank over their 3.6 litre tools, but you'll get over it.

Very interesting posting Random.

As a matter of interest, what do you do with the slurry of a 40 + cow herd, soon to be increasing to 100? Do you make biogas? That's a fair amount of polluting muck to deal with daily.

One other thing, what percentage of your feed is from on-farm resources, and how much from concentrtates and other off-farm sources? Just curious.

maybe I misjudged them.. their plan for the early closing of bars and nightspots was a forward thinking move aimed at reducing the energy consumption of the country....

I am thinking they have switched their brains off already and saved the country a milliwatt...

What kind of energy are you thinking of Stu? The fossil fuel kind, or the kilojoules saved by all that less friction from grinding hips per night?

Isn't it reassuring to know the country is in the care of such safe and forward thinking hands and minds? Mind you, pity the old 16 wheeled rigs and songtaew drivers, bringing the goods and foods down to the 12 million hungry mouths of Bangkok running out of fuel at 4.00 am on the highways south, cos there ain't a drop of fuel allowed to be sold til 6.00 am, order of the boss.

Wonder how many of these same engineers have ever signed off on buildings they weren't 100 % sure about safety-wise, as making a fuss would have jeopardized future work prospects? I never cease to be amazed at just how many concrete buildings I see with cracks running up them, even within a year of completion.

While we're on the subject, does anyone know if the owner of that hotel which collapsed in Khorat back around 95 ever did any porridge?

I could do a 12 pound bird in my little Whirlpool stove oven but it's not like having the family over for Thanksgiving. It's true that most locals would probably deep fry the bird in a big wok on stove top as in most cases no one has an oven to roast the bird. Must investigate the possibility of roasting birds in a pit lined with hot rocks, covered and un earthed the next day or a rotisserie arrangement with grandma and her friends cranking the handle and drinking Sang Som with roll up cigarettes and cackling over dirty jokes.

Where there is a will, there is a way...

Kermanoff? ...........is that something like Smirnoff without the price tag? Sounds like something an East German might have drunk after fillling up the battery of his Lada. Mai pen rai, you'll be able to drink the blue label stuff after this job in Dubai Tuts.

We may not share the same taste in grog, but I see we share the same brandname in ovens - no complaints with our little Whirlpool, even though I was a bit sceptical at first everything would come out fresh smelling and soggy. We've done roast beef, toy-keys, geese (send 'em round here p1p!) in it and tonite, I believe the lady of the manor is going a roast chicken for a change from ordinary fayre. Might wash it down with a slurp of some matured Barossa grape juice.

Funny you should mention the roasting pit Tuts. I was in the predicament of living in the middle of nowhere in Laos about 6 years back (no oven for 100 miles around) with a garden full of turkeys and Xmas coming up and guests arriving. It's amazing what you can do with a spade, some corrugated iron/zinc, large flat stones to store the heat and a little patience. That free-range turkey was one of the best I ever tasted, done to a tee underground. And for pud, none of that stodgy traditional stuff that is the last thing one craves after a stomach full of turkey, roast spuds and 5 veg, but some fried bananas (out the garden), flambeed in Regency and covered in melted Dutch choccie, courtesy of our guests. Saep lai, lai! Dirty jokes yes, but not sure about having grandma over, home rollies and Sangsom, being a recipe for success.

cathayy...you contradict a consensus among butchers that I used to drink with at Brennan's bar in Berkeley 20 years ago that confirmed that porkers fed on slop give tastier meat.

At 4pm on the dot everyday a pickup slides up to the house opposite ours to collect slop for their pig farm. Our neighbors do a business supplying basic ingredients to local food stall vendors and usually have a 5 gallon bucket to collect daily. Locally produced mu and mu daeng are the best I've had in Thailand...and I don't even like Thai food...

Are turkeys native to North America? Bernal Diaz who rode with Cortez described a similar bird in his writings during the Conquest of Mexico...large chickens with chocolate sauce and etc...(pavo en mole)

(crazed priests on the temple of Huizilopochli covered with chocolate sauce and human blood holding aloft still beating hearts of sacrificial victims...)

tutsi old bean, pigs reared on slops taste good, pigs rooting around the back yard taste even better. Especially the native black variety, often mis-sold as "moo paa".

But toy-keys are definitely a true North American domesticate, one of the few that wasn't introduced by the conquistadors. And, I don't know what they taught you in Geog. at school, but they taught us that Mexico is part of the North of the continent, but I'm probably wrong? All that getting covered in chocolate sauce and human blood at a sacrifice sounds like a lot of sanuk - you been on the Sangthip again Tuts?

Whilst we are on the subject of fat birds, what about rearing ostriches? This meat is very healthly because (apparently there is zilch chloresterol in the meat).

When I lived in Belgium there were many ostrich farms. Then they opened one in a wood just near to my house in the Uk. I used to walk my kids through the wood and then suddenly this huge great neck would pop up over the hedge. Scared the ###### out of them!!

There must be a lot of decent meat on an ostrich. Not sure how you kill them though. Pair of shears perhaps?

There's small ostrich farms all over the shop up in Isaan. Mostly seem to raise about 10 -20 birds and raise them intensively on pelleted feed. That means, like intensively-reared chickens and turkeys, they taste mightily similar to the cack that gets fed into them, plus added growth promoters (hormones) and anti-biotics for good measure. V. healthy boost of immunity I'm sure!

They got promoted a few years back by some politicians (with their heads buried in the sand), who imported all the original stock and made a pretty baht flogging them to others. However, the industry hasn't taken off cos of the low demand, high costs, problems (like suicidal ostriches that run full tilt into fences and break their necks) and high prices for the consumer. Hence, it seems to be on the decline now, judging form abandoned farms I've seen over the last year or so.

Free-range turkeys though, could have good potential, if you could stop the buggers from treading on their chicks or abandoning them.