plachon

The Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra today announced that he had ordered a cull of wild storks in Thailand, because of concerns that the birds were spreading avian 'flu.

I don't know if there's any truth to the rumor that Thaksin ordered the storks shot as part of the government's birth control initiative.

Surely then, a simple condom slipped over their beak would suffice?

(and being world Aids conference week, we know there's no shortage of meechais about just now!)

Khun wifey

Daughter's happiness

The Thai smile

Sexy young things with split skirts on motorbikes

ahaan Isaan

(not in any particular order )

Is it my imagination or do a disproportionate number of you lot suffer from erectile dysfunction and over-active sweat glands? What's wrong with you in LOS? (Mystifed )

Maybe he's trying to focus public attention on the South, to divert it away from his failure to clean up drugs in LOS, buy a single share in Liverpool FC and control bird flu.

But yeah, granted admission of failure is a rare event amongst the exalted few, but is often not what they actually said, but a (mis)interpretation by the press.

Well, just to put a slightly different slant on things, and suppose for one minute you were the aggrieved party by your wife's cheating. If you were really mellow, you could go "mai pen rai, now we're all square for my little indiscretions over the years"; or you could be a little more jai ron and sling out her things and file for a divorce; or you could go the whole hog and do the penis hacking in reverse equivalent.

This I read is/was the standard treatment/punishment for unfaithful wives on a few Pacific islands (maybe someone else has heard of it and can be more specific geographically?). The offending dallying lady is stripped, hung up in a public place and has scored chillis (hottest variety available) shoved up her wotsit, and left there in the sun til she passes out from the pain. Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sounds like a good cure for butterflying and I bet it'd clear up any unwanted yeast infections at the same time.

(READER'S WARNING: Please don't try this at home on the missus or your local, friendly soi dog either)

Anybody remember the poor dude posting last year, who gave a blow by blow account of how his g/f got really jealous when she heard he'd stopped by for an innocent drink at a bar at the end of the soi one evening, and went literally mad as a bag of spiders? She bought a whole chicken and started chopping it up with a big knife in front of him, then fed it's neck slowly into a liquidiser and finally drank the contents with blood and guts pouring down her neck. And all he did was stop off for a quiet beer!

The g/f probably went down with salmonella or bird flu, but anyone ever know what happened to the crapped out poster? did he make it out of LOS with his crown jewells intact, or did she Moulinex his manhood?

Heros for leaving? Doubtful.. more lads we have in there sorting this mess out the quicker we can be done with it. Just use Yugoslavia as an example- we are still there, but things are stable. Doesn't matter how we got there but rather are we willing to put it right?

"Doesn't matter how we got there"??????????????? who are you, Tony B. liar?

Of course, it bloody well matters.

And where the ###### is Yugoslavia these days?

Tried making some bitter from a Boots kit many moons ago and succeeded in getting about 25 bottles of half reasonable suds. But lost another 15 bottles to explosions under the stairs, as the final fermentation happened a little bit too fast. Well gutted about the loss, but my house had a luvverly pubby smell for weeks after. Should've chucked some formalin in, like singh and chang does.

Small-scale brewing in LOS is not against the law these days, if not with intention to sell, and even then a Thai can get a license. Sartor in a big jar, though is a much better bet for success than beer.

PS i forgot plachon

What do you do when you see an endangered plant being eaten by an endangered animal?

Run home and grab my camera! Certainly wouldn't interfere with it.

Dunno, what's the answer at your end?

Will leave the question of milk subsidies to when we meet and I've had a chance to ask around a few people.

The chicken farm is a great idea, but unfortunately, if a certain powerful agribusiness company has it's way,it may become a thing of the past in Thailand, according to a recent news article trying to link bird flu with integrated raising fish and fowl. did you see it? In the B. Post last Tues or so i think.

The Us are a representative republic, not the same as a democracy.

And I wouldn't be so proud of it not having a healthcare system, rather an appaling state of affairs for any civilised country.

Uhps, getting sidetracked again...

I take your point, mbkudu, I agree that a McDonald's isn't the right thing for a hospital, and there might be commercial interests linking the mentioned business sectors, but I am not at all convinced this is a concious conspiracy to make us all ill. With this logic, dentists' association should be subsidising sugar plantages.

Still off-topic, I'llshut up.

Nearly, but not far off stroll..............the UK suggar mammoths (tate & lyle and Silver Spoon) have long fought for the right to keep Brits unhealthy by sponsoring all sorts of people and institutions "round the back door". One example, is quietly making payments to TV chefs in return for them showing dishes that are laced with sugar. It doesn't even have to be that companies brand (as they have a virtual monopoly anyway), so long as conspicuous sugar consumption is being promoted. Very clever and explains why Anthony Worral Thompson and a few million others in UK are such fat b............s.

Similarly MacD's and Coca Cola / Pepsi sponsor schools; the latter fighting to get their brand drink machines placed in schools exclusively (under the table sweeteners ( ) to Principals without principles works a treat) and other such unsavoury methods to catch 'em young and hold 'em for life. Quite ingenious the marketers in corporations, who'll also tell you: "You can't stop globablisation".

You should meet my (Thai) daughter.

I do not believe in smacking except as an absolutely necessity. Her mother has a much shorter tolerance span than I, and brings our daughter up in the same way she was brought up (kicks and smacks included). Our daughter is bright, full of energy, talks continuously, does not sleep until about ten at night (six years old). But if I say 'No' she knows I mean it and will stop frying the cat, using a whole bottle of shampoo, whatever.

With her mother, she pushes things to the limit and accepts the punishment, when she can't dodge. But everyone in our Condo knows her and say what a lovely, lively girl. (At least to our faces).

I think it depends on the kids. And also on the environment around them. In England the school sports afternoon was abandoned by most schools, I see now that even the two hours each week of PE has been abandoned in many schools (yesterday's Grauniad) and thus kids do not have the natural feeling of being reasonably fit in their bodies. I had the old-fashioned upbringing of two hours in the gym, rugby ach Wednesday and Saturday, plus after-school training. And I played until almost my sixtieth birthday.

My daughter swims, runs around, uses her bike, does not know what McDonalds is. But she does eat bugs.

Kids here have a great time - I would not want a British education, as currently offered by the state system, for any child.

Your daughter and mine (a 2 yr age difference) sound to have many things in common in their lifestyles and parental attitudes, up until the last sentence. I'm afraid I cannot agree with you over the benefits of a UK state education being less than those for an equivalent in Thai, or even for that matter, a lot of private schools over here.

I can only speak from the experience of my daughter having spent 2 years in a primary school in UK and the last 2 years here. She's an extremely happy girl, adaptable and well balanced between two parental cultures and does well at school. But all three (wife, daughter and me) of us recognise that the UK school is much better in most ways, than the Thai school. Teaching methods, class size, materials, discipline, bullying, parental interest, homework and extra-curriculum choices are just a few of the criteria I would judge them by. Maybe we were just lucky in the UK, but I don't think so. How many Thai state schools have less than 40 kids per class, unless really out in the sticks? At that size, it's very difficult for one person to actually teach very much to young children.

As for discipline, the school prominently displays a motto in Thai and English "Spare the rod and spoil the child", but doesn't seem to adhere to it, although beating doesn't seem to be totally prohibited. I think the old notions of Thai kids being so respectful to adults are fading as fast as junk food is catching on, so I see strong parallels between this thread and the Westernisation one. Ill-disciplined rug-brats are spreading worldwide too!

PS The UK Lords wisely declined to ban smacking in the home, realising that it would quickly criminalise 75 % of the population, which would make it a crazier law than banning smoking weed!

Yea I left out alot of stuff because most of it is boreing and I didnt want to get off TOPIC. The question was why are people in LOS fatter now than they were in the past. I tried to awnser this.

Last year Thailand dumped a bunch of pork on Laos that was treated with something to make it red, The government of Laos tried to prevent this but the people wanted it anyway. When your hungry you dont care about unhealthy side effects on yourself or your environment. That is what you worry about when you have a belly full of food.

No I do not think greed and corruption is westernization it has been here since Budda walked the countryside.

What a load of crap you write Mai Krap, if you'll permit me to comment. The "boreing" stuff you leave out is some of the most relevant to this thread and shows up your extreme bias on the subject. You failed to answer why people in Thailand are fatter now than in the past, and likewise gave a very lopsided plug for the industrial farming-fast food complex. It's all very well saying isn't modern farming methods with its chemicals, computers, genetic modification and minimal labour requirements both incredible and wonderful at putting food on the plates of the wealthy, overfed and powerful 20 % of humanity (mostly in the West, but increasingly too in ascendant east Asia), but like any accounting system the costs have to be factored in too. These costs are usually entirely ignored by the multi-national corporations that benefit from the present situation and through controlling the food chain from producer to consumer, but externalised on the environment and society (usually the poorest members). Hence, mkbudu is right in many ways about the links he sees in those companies that are profiting from the present status quo and have no real desire to change the symptoms we're talking about for the better.

On the subject of dumped pork, Laos and hungry people over "there", more tripe and offal I'm afraid. Are you trying to suggest that Laotians couldn't reject this tainted pork you heard about, because they were so hungry and would starve other wise? Hahahaha! 1/ A UNDP Development Index table I read not so long ago stated that the average calorie consumption in Laos was higher than in Thailand. 2/ Because Laos monetarily is poorer than Thailand, the poorest sectors of Lao society cannot afford meat from the market of any description (hence, they are a more self-sufficient economy), 3/ The government of Laos, can choose at anytime to accept or reject imports from Thailand, irrespeective of what "the people" think (it is unelected anyways).

Finally, since when did Buddha walk the countryside "here" pray tell?

"I WENT TO BANGKOK AND LOST MY VIRGINITY"

"######COAL CHAMBER"

Some other gems of slogans seen on the chests of pubescent teenage girls recently, proving the point that the West is Best. Or not..........perhaps those "SOD" (Thai characters), ones aren't so offensive after all?

Scamp, I agree with you almost entirely, but think that the die was cast long ago and it's waaaaaaay too late to change owt now. The writing was on the wall, when Thailand chose the US Empire over the Russian Bear or China's version of totalitarianism back in the 50s/60s, although it seems to be dithering nowadays as to which model appeals most. Wonder what Chinese T-shirt slogans would say?

The course of our lives is simply our karma unfolding. The resultant actions of previous good deeds leading to advantage and good fortune. Past bad deeds resulting in misfortune and disadvantage.

That is the philosophy of Thai people isn't it?

There is an old saying in India,"The wise man laments neither for the living or the dead but allways acts with kindness and compassion to everyone."

Don't worry the US has a heavy karmic hammer comming down as we speak. Although well deserved. We should never rejoice at the suffering of others.

Although sometimes it's difficult not to.

Reincarnation is not the "philosophy" of all Thais, but a fair proportion seem to think that way, or so it seems. There's another way of looking at it and that's "natural law" - roughly speaking, in the end you'll get your just desserts for acts committed in this life, or so some others would like to believe. The saying you quote sounds quite Shree Rajneesh (aka Osho)-ish. Is it?

Anyway, I dunno what all this moral indignation about some poor beggars being "controlled" by the mafia is, bar an excuse not to give a brass farthing to all less fortunate than one self. Look at it this way - all who pay taxes are paying a large part of their earnings (sometimes up to half) to what in most countries is an accountable mafia, who blow this money on worthless projects and schemes. Especially disheaterning for the US citizen, like Sully, who must watch it being blown on lining the pockets of Halliburton executives and daisy-cutters daily. Read in the Washington Post (of all places!) that it would have been cheaper (and probably a lot more effective in winning the peace) just to hand out $20 K to every Iraqi citizen and let them get on with building the govt. of their choice. Ahhhhhhh, choices, choices..................

Mr Plachon, although I agree with the sentiments expressed in your post, I must ask how a person is born an orphan, and are you just another rider on the "blame the US for everything" bandwagon? The world is thus...thus have "we" made the world. Have a nice day.

No, I try hard not to jump on that bandwaggon, but sometimes the actions of the US govt. make it hard to totally overlook the obvious. I even gave up on the Bear Pit, when it became obvious that the arguments were all one-sided. No contest against the likes of G-P.

And, it's not difficult to be born an orphan if a B52 has just dropped a present from Nixon on your hut and killed your entire family, bar your mother who dies later from shrapnel wounds, leaving you to be cared for by neighbours. Admittedly, most became orphans a little later, but even if one of your parents are dead and the surviving one abandons you to someone elses care, you are still described as an "orphan", or so I believe.

This is all pedantics though! Beggars' sad lot in life is the topic.......

As for killing snakes, the wife and I have discussed it and never kill them except when unavoidable such as when on the motorcycle. If one were to brake, by the time one stopped, he would be on top of the snake and in a delicate situation.

Its true, the snakes are great at rodent control. Also true, snakes will avoid people and mind thier own business. They will also bite if stepped on and they dont care if it was intentional or not.

Fact is always a bit stranger than fiction!

I once stepped barefoot on a ugly big (5') snake lying on the top step of our house at first light one morning, as I sleepily went down stairs to make coffee. Jeez! That thing woke me up faster than ten cups of coffee!!!!!!!!!! I freaked and started half falling, half sprinting down the stairs as fast as I could. Trouble was the snake was equally freaked out at being stepped on and was doing the exact same thing! I applied the brakes half way down while the snake continued to the bottom. Only then did it get its act together and rear up hissing.

I was in no mood to go down and check if it was poisonous or not, so went back up to find a weapon. Found a broom and went downstairs, by which time the snake had disappeared. With the help of my wife we found it curled up at the back of our shoe rack and while she prodded it with a long stick, I waited to bash it. It made it's move and was heading pretty fast for our kitchen before I managed to get in a few killer blows. It was a light brown colour and according to the neighbours was a poisonous variety, so just as well it didn't do what snakes are supposed to do on being stepped on!

The large variety of snake that quite a few posters have seen in their gardens I suspect is the lion snake (ngu singh). I saw one in the garden the other day about 6' long but let it be. Usually dark brown or blackish, they move like shit off a shovel, and taste pretty good if eaten pad pet style. Oh yes, they're also excellent swimmers, but are non-poisonous fortunately.

A person who would not personally prostitute themselves would in many cases be willing to accept the "dirty money" that is the proceeds of corruption and vice.

A couple of general elections back when pick up trucks were going around the villages with sacks of 20 & 50 baht notes I told my wife to refuse any money offered as an enducement to vote.

I told her that whatever amount of money she and her mother declined I would double it.

So how much did you cough up in the end then John?

Seems to me you were just encouraging dependency and greed. "Don't accept that dirty money mae yai, it's been stolen from the people. Don't you see that once you've taken it, the evil MP will take it back twice over once he's in. Take my clean money instead and we'll solve the problem together".

Until the twin vices of greed and ignorance have been removed, then it's all just pissing in the wind I'm afraid. In Bangkok, education has partly eliminated the latter, so vote buying has diminished, but the former is at least as strong as in the provinces and so the country still gets leaders it doesn't deserve. Or perhaps does deserve?

To change the name of a country costs a lot of money... you have to print new passports and ID cards, rename government related organisations, paint the airplanes of Thai Airways to Siam Airlines, have to issue new bills and coins...and so on...and so on....

I think, this money should better be used for something more useful for the Thai (excuse me, sorry) for the Siamese people....Out of financial consideration alone, my vote is NO.

You've just neatly identified the grounds on which a name change would be approved. Just think who would get all the contracts for such an expensive palaver.

Took some reading, but got there eventually. Mr Race deserves a medal for being one terrier, who refused to let go of the rag, despite the doberman on the other end and has still come out tail wagging. Good on yer - lesser men would have lost heart long before.

Hi Random, back again.

You've already identified some of the govt. subsidies to the dairy producers (rice farmers would turn green with envy, I bet if they knew how much they get taxed indirectly on their product). Unmilled paddy fetches about 5 K Bt/ton (average), but polished rice sells to the consumer at about 15 -20 B/kg i.e. 15,000 - 20,000 Bt/ton. Now that is a huge mark-up for some very simple processing and minor distribution (all areas of Thailand grow rice to a greater or lesser extent).

As to whether the govt. directly intervenes in the farm-gate price of milk, we'll have to beg to difffer on this one, despite the co-op head's insistence it's not. I think over the year's it's taken different forms of subsidy and it may not be directly obvious, but as I am fairly sure that the DMO is still a loss-making govt. enterprise (as it has since way back when), they are funneling tax payer's money into keeping the dairy industry above water. It maybe that the money used to come more directly to the farmer, but is now more hidden in various forms of subsidisation. Another piece of evidence for my argument is that if the price floats according to the market (which goes up and down seasonally, right?) why isn' t this reflected in your price received which I understand is flat, right? In particular, it should be very elastic during the long school summmer hols when the kids aren't drinking their free milk (another indirect and very significant subsidy to the industry), and the price should crash. You state that the price is 11.25 B/kg - how much has this price varied in the last 2 years?

It's good to know that you'll be compliant and staying ahead of the curve, but don't hold your breath on the regs being enforced for many years to come (just look at m'bike helmets for a classic example - enforcement is just starting in city areas upcountry, about 5 years after they became law).

"At the moment milk consumption far outstrips production in thailand, and around 50% of internal production is used to make "fresh" milk."

I'm glad you put the "fresh" in inverted commas, cos it defies the evidence of what one sees in any shop you care to mention selling milk products. I went to the link you gave put out by Assumption Uni and found it to be very outdated and "noddy" in the information given, not just for dairy, but for other types of farming. Perhaps, it was taken from a student's "special project" where the info was lifted from outdated govt. sources? Or perhaps, by "fresh" they mean any milk product that isn't UHT, condensed, evaporated, powedered, cheese, yoghurt, ice cream (v. low milk content usually), etc. i.e. so the artificially flavoured, coloured, sweetened and adulterated banana, choc, etc. milks found in shops and most Thais buy, account for 50 % of the market ? Even that i find hard to believe. But as for true "fresh" milk, i.e. straight up pasteurised fresh milk, then that must account for a low percentage of the overall market unless my eyes and intellect are deceiving me. Nearly all Thais I know (esp. the kids), turn their noses up at true fresh milk, saying it's "Jeut" i.e. plain and not sweet. Hence, you have this contradiction of a promotion saying "Drink milk for health", when the stuff that is widely available is anything but, and never mind the artificial additives, is adding to a whole generation of kids with black rotten teeth. Good for the dentists. Yes, I know this is not the concern of the milk producers, but it's relevant to the image and viability of the industry as a whole. (Just my 2 cents worth - but interested to hear anyone's alse opinion on this).

"As for the quality control in dairies goes, I dont know, I'm a farmer, but our milk is checked for bacteria (stomatic cell count), quality and antibiotic residues every time we send milk (2 a day), the co-op then send milk in a refrigerated tanker to the factory every day, where it is checked again. If I was to send suspect milk that ended up in the main holding tank I would be liable to pay for the entire days collection about 4 ton or 45,000 bht, it pays to be cautious!! if in dout check!!"

I think the bacteriological checks have probably tightened up in the past few years, but I am still a bit sceptical about the antiobiotic residues. You're probably doing it all according to the book, but what about the smaller farmers struggling to make ends meet, with a high debt to pay back and bills to pay. They all use lots of antiobiotics as far as I can see (you've pointed out all the diseases you're up against and Isaan is probably worse if anything!) and not only on the animals. Hey, it's normal in Thailand to pop pills even for common colds, so why worry about such things as 30 day/ 45 day withdrawal periods. Sorry to be so sceptical, but being a realist and having seen the blatant disregard for such periods in the past and knowing what goes on in other intensive livestock industries, then you'd have a tough job convincing me that other farmers are as fastidious as you in not milking and selling the milk from animals under treatment. (As you said yourself, "you've never known a Thai pour money down the drain").

Actually, I think the reason that they did pour the milk away was pure protest at how low the milk price had sunk to in those days (around 8- 9 baht, if i remember). No doubt, they couldn't do it for long and it led to the processors (temporarily deprived of raw material) to pressure the DMO to up the prices. Also, no doubt, a lot fo small famers went out of business fairly soon after, as they defaulted on loans, althouth TIT, they may have survived another year or two. However, it is noticeable that since the industry was promoted by the govt. and foreign donors as a poverty alleviation measure and farmers with 3 -5 head of cattle only were the main targets, it has subsequently rationalised and moved up to an activity for middle-income farmers and up. It never should have been promoted to land and capital scarce farmers in the first place, but it was, and now the natural order of things has become apprarent (while the small farmers who went to the wall in the early 90s after trying dairy cows are now probably pushing food carts in Bangkok or sweeping litter for 100 baht/day).

I see this industry from a slightly different angle to you Random i.e. as a neutral observer, who likes drinking fresh milk in my Lao coffee & still believes it can be viable in certain areas of the country, but think the time has come to remove the subsidies and start creating a genuinely healthy product. This doesn't mean the country should be opened up to untammelled "Free Trade" with every country, as Thaksin would like to see, as this will cause literally millions of farmers to go to the wall and you could be joining those Isaan farmers on to the streets of BKK. (Only kidding! ). What it means, very briefly and superficially, is giving selective support to farmers who are practicing ecologically-friendly farming methods and moving away from the chemical-dependent, energy-wasting, polluting and environemtnally degrading methods being supported now. Bina would probably know about the book "Silent Spring" (Rachel Carson) written 40 or so years ago in USA and still as relevant today as then. In fact, in the case of Thailand where the bird populations (and dozens of other wildlife groups) are in a precipitous decline due to the changes in farming methods, it is more relevant today than the US, where the tide is just starting to turn locally. However, nothing will change while the big agribusiness companies (many listed by Random as your feed suppliers) hold such incredible power over the politicians and the food that arrives on most people's plates.

Jeez, this thread is now in danger of spreading to a much wider topic than just "Farming in Isaan", but if it brings in more input / thoughts, then so much the better. We are what we eat, literally and metaphorically, so it's worth considering where our food (& drink) has come from. For that reason, I've long since given up on the Mekong/Saengsom/tip/Lao kao and Singh/Chang chasers! :D

Cheers!

Load of old billhooks

Also biggest SS scroungers in this neck of the woods are called Brits

You got it Rinrada. But there's always got to be a convenient scapegoat, for one's own shortcomings and angst, huh? And if it ain't benefit-scammers from Afghanistan, then it's bloody southerners buying up all the local houses. Should just stop people from traveling all together would solve the mess, I say.

Mind you, Mick Dundee? Sounds like a Tayside pom who got lost in Queensland, found fame wrestling crocs and not giving a 4 X for any other lager, before the troppo sun and Foster's went to his head and ended up in Hollywood, where everyone can have their 15 mins of fame (but not neccessarily be able to distinguish the rights that go with a Brit passport, as opposed to Entitlement of Abode - where 2 years or so is the grace period for return to UK, I believe).

He's not letting on Maerim (cos he's sworn to secrecy), but our Dave also worked on the Shuttle. You remember the one - Need Another ........... It was at that point in his career he decided to take a break and run for Prez, but as he was sworn to secrecy, he got Kevin Kline to double for him.

will try to answer tomarrow, when I'm not drunk, but you're so much cleverer than me!! give me a chance!!

Trouble with me, is I don't get drunk often enuff! Too many Mekong and Singh hangovers in the past and present family duties have taught me to moderate my intake these days, but I'm always willing to make exceptions in the right company Random.

Two other things spring to mind since yesterday's marathon posting:

1/ You're dead right about govt. legislation and policy being the key to making +ve changes in environmental standards and quality of life for all. However, equally important is enforcement, which as you know in dear old LOS with your meat in the markets example, is often severely lacking. In the meantime, there's nothing to stop aware farmers making the first steps themselves and setting examples for the others to follow (SO LONG, as you're still making a reasonable standard of living and can quantify the benefit long term - often tricky to get right, I know).

2/ Both you and Bina came up with a similar conclusion to the one I made about 12 years ago, after seeing the pros and cons of the dairy industry up close, especially in relation to risk factors and the small farmers of Isaan. You both independently concluded that goats might be a good way to go for small farmers, which i would readily agree with. With goats, it's not even necessary to have your own land, so long as you've got somewhere to house them at night, as they can be grazed on other people's lands seasonally or on public/common lands. ######, they can even be grazed along road verges in really rural areas, so long as the farmer keeps them off the highways.

Other advantages of the humble goat are 1/ they're cheap and affordable to the poor; 2/ they're hardy and relatively disease resistant; 3/ they're fecund - twins most times and short pregnancy of 5 months; 4/the small amount of milk produced means it really can be consumed in the family; 5/ the carcass is small and ideal for occasions when a cow is too big to kill; 6/ there's a good market for them mostly amongst the Muslim community (they're common in the South and in certain districts around Bangkok), but also local Chinese at certain times of year.

These are just a few of the potential benefits from raising goats, although I could cite many more. I could also give a long list of potential problems and pitfalls to goats raising in Isaan, as I tried it myself on a small scale in the early 90s. (with Nubian/Saanen/local breeds mixes Bina). But on balance, the pros outweigh the cons, if one is prepared for doubters and snide comments from the neighbours! (they usually repent after the first goat bar-b-q!) However, it is harder work extending to ordinary villagers, which was my original aim in keeping them, but still possible with the right framework and backstopping.

However, this could rapidly become another monster posting, so i'll cut it here. Just interesting that both of you recognised the potential for goats in consecutive postings. Shalom and Cheers folks!

Getting back to Mia Farang, here's one more from The Nation that includes some statistics! We all love statistics! And generalizations, we love those too, here we go:

The Mia Farang of Isaan, The Nation

16. of June 2004

"They are mostly typical Isaan women, rather dark skin, quite strong

and healthy and not the type to attract typical Thai men," said

researcher Decha Vanichvarod when asked to characterise mia farang, the

Thai wives of foreign men.

Decha is director of the National Economic and Social Development

Board's Northeastern Region.

"They are not 'beautiful' according to Thai men, or among the

good-looking women who normally head for jobs in the sex industry in

Bangkok, Phuket or Pattaya," he states in a soon-to-be published report.

Decha's study surveyed 15,284 mia farang in 19 provinces of the

Northeast, ranging in age from 20 to 52 years of age, and averaging 32.

Khon Kaen, Udon Thani and Nong Khai were the top three home provinces in terms of numbers.

Most of the women - 69 per cent - had an education no higher than Grade

6, 24 per cent made it to Grade 9 and the remaining 7 per cent graduated

from higher levels.

Eighty per cent of them had been married before. Many have children

with Thai husbands, the study found.

More than 50 per cent were from farming households and found they could not survive economically after breaking up with their husbands.

Many seek jobs in the service sector, such as hotel maids, waitresses

or masseurs, which they feel give them a better chance of meeting

foreigners.

Many meet Western partners through neighbours or relatives who have

married farang. The study says 63 per cent met their husbands

independently in Bangkok, Pattaya or another big city, 35 per cent

through a relative and 2 per cent on the Internet.

Before meeting their farang partners, 33 per cent of the women had

worked in Bangkok for less than Bt5,000 a month; 17 per cent worked in

Pattaya for a similar income; 13 per cent worked in other tourist cities

for salaries around Bt7,000; 26 per cent were farmers with a

Bt1,000-per-month income; and 11 per cent had already worked abroad,

many in factories, for salaries in the Bt30,000 range.

Since marrying, 72 per cent have become housewives and receive money

from their husbands upon request. The women send an average of Bt8,000 a month back to their families.

The top three home countries of the husbands are Germany, Switzerland

and England (20, 14 and 12 per cent, respectively). Other husbands of

the women surveyed were from Australia, the United States, New Zealand,

Canada, Sweden, France, Holland, Denmark, Belgium, Scotland, Italy,

Norway, Greece and Israel, and Asian nations including Japan, Malaysia

and Singapore, with small numbers from Laos, Hong Kong, South Korea,

Kuwait and China.

Businessmen comprised the largest group of foreign husbands (22 per

cent), with smaller numbers working as state officials, technicians,

engineers, retirees, teachers and doctors.

---

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com

I would treat any studies like these, especially from NESDB, with a handful of gleua. For a start, where are they going to get hold of 15,000 mia farang who are going to participate in such a study? Sukhumvit Road? Pattaya? Living at home with the pua in Isaan? Through embassies overseas? And the survey method? Telephone? On the street waiting or at likely looking bars? I don't think so - after all these are karachagan that strictly work 9 - 5. With a sample size that big, there would almost certainly be some wives of Forum members interviewed, so come on guys (and wives?), how many of you or your other halves been subjected to such a survey in the past year or two??

I would be especially sceptical about the "80 % already married" one, although I guess there are many ways to define "marriage" I guess.

Like so many surveys in LOS, while it contains a few general truisms that anyone with an ounce of noddle could deduce, I wouldn't dwell on the actual figures too much.

good luck with lowering your "footprint" on the earth.

Ah plachon my tree hugging friend , nice to see your back.

I think you're pretty well-tuned to some of the dangers that can exist from stepping up the scale of production on a limited piece of land and then relying more on external resources for profitability

Thanks, but to be honest thats prob because this is a buissiness for me and cutting out the middle man (especially when they are unreliable) just maximises my profits and ensures a regular supply.

I dont really accept that my farm's foot print is bigger, but hopfully in the future that will change.

I'll explain we have 65 rai, about 12 of that is given over to cattle, which I dont think exeeds my "carrying capacity" the rest of the land 50 odd rai. I could prob grow enought grass and feed if it was the right type of land, so although I am reliying on external resorses, theoreticaly if a farmer was useing his land to grow say corn, but it was sutible for grass we could swap, the point that I'm badly trying to make is that I could be vertually self sufficent.

The reason that I say that hopefully that will change is that from an ecomomic point of view, growing "crops" is not a very efficent way of maximising your profits from the land, but it have the advantage of requiring very little initial investment. I think that we will eventually peak out at about 120 milkers, with around the same number of calves. The Idea being that when you reach a comftable number of milkers you breed your calfs, and start selling cattle as well, obviously starting with the dross, therbye raising the quality of your heard. Its wortt bearing that in mind if any of you want to buy livestock always ask why they are selling, espesially milkers (if they are good why get rid of them). If they are average or have some problem thats OK if the price reflects that.

extremely specialised animals bred by societies like the Dutch

We try our best to de-specialise them, a pure bread Friesian is'nt much use here all are crossed to a certian degree, ever been to Chok Chai I always to mean to go and have a look, wounder what they have there, would'nt supprise me it they where 100% Friesian.

However, the fact remains that they are here thanks to massive govt. support and subsidies

there is a domestic dairy industry artificially created in a non-dairy consumption society

As far as I know the start of dairy farming was back in the 50's with a gift from the King and Queen of Denmark to the King of Thailand of a herd of dairy cattle.

How was the dairy industry artificially created, Ok th thai gov brought in a policy of giving school children free milk, is that bad? It is true that most thais dont drink much fresh milk and it is viewed as a bit of a health drink, but look at all the milk products, Condensed milk, yougot, ice cream, cheese (the Pizza company make all their own cheese in thailand) if the demand for these products was artifitually created, it would of been throught advertising rather than gov intervention, which is no different from creating a demand for any product!!

You asked me about the gov subsidies before, I still dont know if they exist, as far as I'm aware the selling price is dependant on market forces, I know different areas sell for different ammounts, we have a choice to sell to the local co-op, or a private company, belive it or not the co-op sells the milk comercially (Mali) and the company sells it to the Gov for schools. If you do know of any subsidies, please let me know. Dairy farming is supported bye the goverment, we are tax exempt, get some free vacineations and there is vetenarian support( of dubious quality).

Looked at the Biogas site In PLok (on internet not person!!) and a few others it was interesting, did you see the one with the indian village, who basically rent their animal dung to the Biogas thing. Anyway its a good idea and i will keep it in mind for the future ( I'm honestly not big enough yet to justify the cost and have'nt thought about how to use the gas yet) I was more interested in the sand filtration beds they were using I may have to put something simular in soon.

I understand you concerns on polution and the enviroment, but to get any comercial farms to make changes in my view takes one of two things to happen.

Goverment Legislation (which is also enforced!!) or you have to show that any measures are either cost neutral or even better increase profits, and let be honest even big multi national companies that go "above and beyond" only do so in the attempt to increase peoples awarness/respect for the brand and therefore increase profits.

Anyway prehaps we should have a beer sometime would make an interesting conversation!! How about a farming/gardenig sub forum?

I'll take being called a "tree hugger" as a complement Random, as I've been called a lot worse in the past. In fact, these days it's the "tree huggers" that were once labelled as Greenie nuts that most European govts. are going to for advice on how to make their economies, and by extension agriculture, more clean and green, as they're also discovering it also can make good business sense. Jonathon Porritt, ex-head of the UK Green Party and now advisor to Tony Blair, is a good example.

But this is by the by. I found your post particularly interesting as you are going back to the core of the dairy industry and how it came to its present position. I think you're probably right about the royal connection, as there is a dairy herd slap in the middle of Bangkok in HM King's Chitralada Palace, along with many other farming enterprises. Would be fascinating to go and visit it. And I'm sure the Royal-sponsored project played a major part in dairy's early development in Thailand.

However, it started to spread nationwide in the late 80s and early 90s through massive promotion and support from a whole range of govt. agencies and projects. At the same time, lots of foreign bilateral aid organisations funding and direct govt support was also being given to Thailand to promote dairy farming. The Dutch, Danish, Japanese, Oz and New Zealand govt's were front runners in this, and the legacy is left behind in such brands as Dutch Mill, Thai-Denmark, Meiji, and several others whom I can't think of off the top of my head. So initially the subsidies were mostly being offered in the form of aid, sometimes with strings attached (loans or funneled back into that country's company's), but more often large sums were given as direct non-returnable grants.

Later, after a nascent dairy industry had been created, the foreign funds dried up (Thailand was considered a low priority beneficiary cf other places), and a whole powerful officialdom had been created living off the cream so to speak, and didn't want to lose their benefits and the good life. So the Thai Dairy Marketing Organisation was created to promote, control and protect "Frankenstein". Farmers were offered a good price (govt. subsidised) to act as an incentive to all the new small dairy farmers tempted into the game by dozens of earlier projects. However, to meet the market demand for milk there was a continual problem with fluctuating supply and quality (lots of adulterated milk with water to boost volume). As most of the large processors were private companies dedicated to sourcing from the lowest cost source, it became continually more easy and cheaper for them to buy milk from abroad in powdered form (e.g NZ and EU surplus production). Hence, it became possible to see in dairies everywhere bags of EU powdered milk being poured into "100 % Fresh milk" supplies. This outsourcing from abroad then lowered the demand for local milk and the price started to fall. There was a time about 6-8 years ago, when local producers around Muak Lek (major centre of the dairy industry) and other towns in Isaan were forced to pour their milk away, as the factories were buying at a price not worth their while, despite the fact that this had been a govt. promoted scheme to "solve poverty". Instead, previously solvent farmers were going bankrupt selling up their herd, assts and lastly land to speculators and joining the exodus to Bangkok. The dairy dream was faltering.

Since then, 2 main things seem to have happened, although I am no expert on this. Random might like to contradict me or add from his own experience. But as i understand it: 1/ The govt. enterprise DMO intervened and guaranteed prices, thus stabilising prices and making it profitable again. 2/ To promote the dairy business nationwide the govt. introduced the School milk project, where all primary school kids are offered a small bag of milk each day. Nice idea, but not without it's problems (mostly of corruption and spolied milk reaching the schools), as any eagle-eyed reader of the English dailies will testify.

It also brings me back to the point that I made in an earlier post that Thailand is NOT ostensibly a dairy-consuming country naturally. It is an artifact as a result of massive govt. intervention and the original plan of the foreign donors in promoting dairy farming was never realised, despite massive inputs i.e. that poor rural folk would take up dairy farming and solve thier indebtedness whilst at the same time feeding their families with nutritious milk. Instead what has happened, is that 1/ nearly every farmer that has tried dairy cows has sold every last drop of milk and given none to the wife and kids; 2/ most small farmers were given bad advice and ended up failing in the operation, with now most dairy farms being in the hands of medium- large farmers; 3/ most milk is processed into unhealthy milk products, esp. those laden with artificial colours, flavours and loads of sugar; 4/ The industry still can't operate by itself without the govt. subsidies and interventions (i.e. it is still heavily protected. This last point is maybe not something that most dairy farmers are aware of, but was brought home recently by the reports that dairy farmers are preparing to protest against including dairy products in the Free Trade Agreement with Australia, as they know well that they could not compete with the cheaper foreign imported milk from Oz.

So, Random, sorry to harp on at such length, but despite your pleas otherwise, I would still maintain that your income is partly being subsidised by the Thai taxpayer, which is very nice, for so long as it lasts, but don't expect it to be for ever. All the infrastructure that got the industry to where it is now, was mostly underwritten by the West in the mistaken belief it would be solving "poverty". Apart from that it's a grand industry and I wouldn't knock it for a minute............in fact, i regularly enjoy a glass of fresh milk (antibiotic residues, EU milk and all) and pots of Dutchie yoghurt. And of course, it's not the only business to be subsidised, but I would argue that it has had more than it's fair share.

One other point for Bina - Yes, many Thais are lactose intolerant and don't realise it. they're also getting more and more cases of diabetes to epidemic proportions and other diet related illnesses, but it is little reported. Yet, the govt goes out of it's way to promote non-local food types! And dairy in schools is one of the best examples of this. The rationale was it would make Thai kids grow bigger cos they don't get enough calcium. Of course, they never checked to see that the average Thai rural kid (esp. in Isaan) is not calcium deficient, because they eat so many fish, frogs, etc in the whole i.e bones and all, and the diet was already nutritionally complete. Now they eat less and less wild fish (because of the screwed up environment), more and more junk food and will flash you a lovely smile of blackened teeth when they arrive at school, thanks to the milk program.

Oooohps, Random is gonna hate me now!

Only kidding mate, would love to have a beer sometime and chat about some of these topics of mutual interest, rather than tapping at a poxy computer for hours!

Plachon, Thanks for the reply and info. It always gets me when I hear people say how healthy Thai food is because of so much fruit and vegetables. It would be true without the poison. We arnt 100% organic. There are times we use karate insectiside on the trees, but never when there is fruit. The same with the laundry water. I try to teach neighbors about composting, but you know how they like to burn everything. After the rice harvest, I take my wagon and try to get all the piles of hay (fang) before they burn it all. We go to the agricultual fair every year at KKU, but there isnt much on organic farming there. Ill try near the bus station.

I know what you mean about phak boong, we eat alot of that stuff. Pumpkin (<deleted> tong) is easy to grow also. I bought a blender at Big C and everyday I pick a young coconut and put the juice in the blender then add whatever we have, banana, papaya, mango, etc. and let it rip! Sure is good. By the way, the compost pile is a good place to plant. The squash, tomatoes etc, creep up on the pile and stay dry.

Our nephew gave us some wild chickens (gai paa). They breed faster than we can eat them. They sleep in the trees and take care of themselves, we just give them water and leftovers. They lay lots of eggs, but we have to hunt for them, they are in flower pots, trees, everywhere.

I think small scale farming is the way to go. Its fun, easy and healthy. Thanks again, Tom Salarak

Yep, unfortunately you're spot on about the gulf between the perceived healthiness of a Thai diet and the reality. IF, consumer awareness could be raised, then a few more people might start demanding to know where their food has come from and what has been poured on it, but until that happens, eating the nicest looking stuff in the market, is more of a risk that eating the mangy caterpillar-gnawed veggies I reckon. Of course, home growing is the safest and healthiest alternative, as at least you know exactly what crap has gone on your food.

Apart from fruit smoothies another good way of using up excess fruit, when it's in season, especially mangoes, pineapples and bananas, is fermented fruit juice. It's a kind of EM juice and tastes great. What I do is get a hai (clay jar) and shove in layers of rough chopped fruit sandwiched between layers of sprinkled soft brown sugar, until the jar is nearly to the top. Use a ratio of 1kg sugar : 1 kg fruit, and cover top tightly then leave for a month. After that, open it up, pour off and decant the thick brown juice into sterilised bottles and it'll store for months. Drink like fruit cordial, diluting a little with lots of water. Great for energy on a hot day. (far better than lucozade) and the crystallized fruit can either be sundried and eaten as a snack or thrown on your compost heap, if you want the benefits of those little EM beasties.

It's amazing what comes up in compost heaps, eh? I always reckon that the tomato seedlings you get off the compost are far better than anything you get in any packet, and you have the added excitement of wondering what variety it's gonna be! It's interesting that all that heat and bacterial activity doesn't kill them, but sparks their germination. We had some great toms last cool season like this.

Hope you find the carrot seed & lime ok.