lucaswallachia

So do we know what time AC Bar closed that night?

If they have video from 25 CCTV cams from the area then you would think there is a pretty high chance the killers would of been seen on them, if not around the time of the murders at least some time before it happened.

Apart from the closest friends on the island with David and Hannah, there are also friends they met whilst there. Some who have posted photos and heartfelt messages to David on Facebook. These are the friends who will be hurt, but not hurt deep enough to not be able to talk about things, like the close friends will be. Im sure these friends will have told their friends and family back home everything they know, from the start of that day up until night, and on the awful news breaking the next morning. They may have gone to the beach to find out if it were true etc, and will know things that woudnt be posted in news articles. The closest friends, the ones who actully travelled with David and Hannah, will have held vital parts of the jigsaw regarding the last known whereabouts and actions, words, plans of the night. All i keep hearing is a friend said they left together between 3-4am. In a news report i read that they were seen parting on the beach in a group of around 6 people. Im sure by now there are many people who know a lot more about what's happened, than any of us do, because we have not spoke to anyone or really heard a statement of any importance. Of all the thousands of people on that island, the silence if just deafening.

Because they actually named Hannah's friend, Emma Madeline as saying to the police that they left together.

My personal feeling is this forum must now stop. The posts are mostly out of order. How would you feel if it was your Son or daughter?

If you all need to get it off,go down town or have a cup of tea.

The whole forum is disgusting,and has no respect what so ever for the deceased,or their familys

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Better everyone stay silent and accept whatever is served up by the RTP right?

If I had a son or daughter and if this did happen to them.

I can assure you I would want the truth. If that came about through media involvement or discussions that by and large are very respectful - as much as can be expected in this type of case. Then to get the truth I would wish this type of dialogue. I would be utterly appalled at Sean's decision to keep his mouth shut. I would hate the police and I would never wish to hear the theatrical details of this case but I would want the truth.

Good sir I would expect that you would decline reading this thread and allow people the privilege of individual respectful discussion and deduction. You will not see this from the police so I suggest you may be better suited to hearing and reading the police reports.

Exactly. I would advise green job that if he is offended by stuff on the internet then he refrain from using it.

Don't dismiss this yet - as there is reasonable evidence, albeit undisclosed :

1.) The girl was shot through her face, the exit point being via her skull - which would have killed her. Photos would lead to an interesting debate, certainly not to be ruled out at this stage.

2.) She could have then raped ( body relatively in tact ) by the perps.

3.) Advisor " X " comes along and clips Perps around the ear and scolds them because bullets and guns are more traceable and would rule out horny Burmese Fisherman swimming ashore from their boats.

4.) Advisor orders that entry and exit points of the bullet be totally destroyed to hide murder weapon being a gun and instead suggest that a " Hoe " was the murder weapon - which would considerably broaden the scope of possible perps!

This is not new, but it is possible that many have missed some posts / other sources of info throughout this ordeal!

I don't enjoy posting this at all, but whilst I can't reasonably consider either scenario, it might be easier to rape a recently shot pretty girl than a extensively chopped one !

Makes me sick to type this!!

Furthermore, having seen the horrific photos', every time I think about those photos I feel as though half my head is already missing - such is the trauma and shared pain I feel for them both and their families.

I want to re- share this info just because there are a lot of people that cannot believe that the perps raped a badly disfigured corpse. read again 1 to 4 and then you will see an alternative situation might have been the case !

Sorry for the upsetting content - I feel the same too !

No quite right.

I raised this earlier and I believe she was shot in the head where the two separate areas of blood are on the beach. Then she was dragged to the rape area. Then she was bludgeoned when she was finished with.

The bludgeoning was an attempt to hide something else that would lead police to the offenders. To hack the way she was found, just on that one area of her body The rest of her body was quite clean really.

These were blows definitely aimed at the head.

I stand by your remarks above.

They may be proven untrue as everything is speculative as we know.

I hope for some true closure for the families.

But then why would they beat David and not shoot him and David's body is clean apart from scratches on his back, the 2 cuts on his head and smaller cuts and black eye on face.

There is noticeable blood on her half-submerged left leg/foot

And nobody heard a gunshot? I've read elsewhere the same thing as in shot point blank in the face and the rest of the injuries were more to disguise the cause of death.

Can't remember exactly where I read that though

Its the injury on her bottom right check that looks like it, but if it was a gun shot then the attack to the top of her head certainly doesn't hide it. It could be from when the force of the Hoe hit her, her jaw smashed together and she actually bit into her cheek.

Don't dismiss this yet - as there is reasonable evidence, albeit undisclosed :

1.) The girl was shot through her face, the exit point being via her skull - which would have killed her. Photos would lead to an interesting debate, certainly not to be ruled out at this stage.

2.) She could have then raped ( body relatively in tact ) by the perps.

3.) Advisor " X " comes along and clips Perps around the ear and scolds them because bullets and guns are more traceable and would rule out horny Burmese Fisherman swimming ashore from their boats.

4.) Advisor orders that entry and exit points of the bullet be totally destroyed to hide murder weapon being a gun and instead suggest that a " Hoe " was the murder weapon - which would considerably broaden the scope of possible perps!

This is not new, but it is possible that many have missed some posts / other sources of info throughout this ordeal!

I don't enjoy posting this at all, but whilst I can't reasonably consider either scenario, it might be easier to rape a recently shot pretty girl than a extensively chopped one !

Makes me sick to type this!!

Furthermore, having seen the horrific photos', every time I think about those photos I feel as though half my head is already missing - such is the trauma and shared pain I feel for them both and their families.

I want to re- share this info just because there are a lot of people that cannot believe that the perps raped a badly disfigured corpse. read again 1 to 4 and then you will see an alternative situation might have been the case !

Sorry for the upsetting content - I feel the same too !

If David's t-shirt isn't damaged and doesn't have blood on it then that would mean he took it off before the murder, so the possibilities i guess are: he was having sex with Hannah; he was going to go for a skinny dip (though he still had his left shoe on) or maybe they did have a gun and forced him strip at gun pint.

I'm almost certain that they didn't share a cigarette as such. It must've been loaded with some sort of highly potent drug. Only in that case sharing make sense. It's highly unusual for men to share cigarettes. (unless they are gay).

To be honest, that guy in the video, looks more like Burmese than Thai. Not defending Thais here but the Burmese are capable of such wicked crimes. For many of them rape is a normal act. I'm not joking. Read it for yourself.

License to rape: How Burma’s military employs systematic sexualized violence

http://www.womenundersiegeproject.org/blog/entry/license-to-rape-how-burmas-military-employs-systematic-sexualized-violence

Maybe they only had one cigarette on them.

It is quite possible that Hannah's friend didn't see any row. But other reports say that unnamed people witnessed the row, and that it was heated.

David may have been skinny dipping. Maybe the green towel was his.

I agree, just because the friend didnt see an altercation, doesnt mean it didnt happen. Just because you're out on a night with people, doesnt mean you're stuck with them every single minute. She could have been at the table whilst the 2 victims were at the bar or vice versa. The place looks big and presumably busy. The 2 victims might have been on their own when the altercation took place. Plus others said it DID happen.

Ok. I've been going through a lot of other rape/murder cases and it seems that mutilation of the body after gang rape is quite common so despite the brutality of the injuries to Hannah's head it might not mean the killers deliberately did it out of anger.

I agree Penoirz, it was a crowded bar Hannah's friend may have been dancing or in the bathroom. I also read somewhere that there was an altercation as they were leaving the bar, so she might not have seen that.

As for the theory about mutilation after gang rape, i refer you to the photograph that shows two pools of blood which suggests that Hannah was attacked at the first spot and then dragged to the second and the drag marks don't show any signs of a struggle.

That't why i asked about if police tested the pools of blood, since David's head was still bleeding when they pulled him out even after being in the water, all that blood could of still just of come from him.

I do not want to sound awful here, but i wonder if the victims lips were swabbed for DNA. Regarding the report that Hannah's lipstick/DNA were found on a LM cigarette with the DNA of 2 Asian men that matched the semen. I think the vile creatures probably put their lips to Hannah's during the rapes. Would that not put Hannah's lipstick/DNA on the lips of the men, so that when the men shared a cigarette after the murder, Hannah's DNA would be present too. I also wonder if Davids DNA could be found on HAnnah's lips if they did share a kiss before they were attacked. This could at least shed light on the relations before the murders.

Well we know David is a smoker, but i guess Hannah could of been a social smoker. I would think it more likely that the killers had a smoke before the murders than stand around after it, admiring their crime. Do you have any info on where about's the cigarette (s) were found?

"Police said they found thongs, a pair of black trousers, a T-shirt, a pair of underpants and a used condom at the crime scene. Investigators also found traces of a struggle which indicated possible fighting near the murder scene, police said. A bloodstained hoe and a fertiliser sack were found nearby.

The semen DNA matched DNA found on the butt of an LM cigarette found beside a rock 30-50 metres from the crime scene, Surat Thani police chief Kiattipong Khaosam-ang said on Thursday. He said the DNA of two men was found on the cigarette butt and they matched the DNA found in the semen found inside the female victim's body.

Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said it seemed the two men had shared a cigarette about the time Miller and Witheridge had walked past them, heading to the sandy area of the beach where they were murdered."

Source, Bangkok Post (sorry if not allowed). Interesting that he said the 2 men shared a cigarette about the time David and Hannah walked past them, heading to the area of the beach were they were murdered. How would he guess/know this at all. It would have to have been witnessed and reported. Either that or he has made a really silly guess on a very serious murder investigation.

If they were sitting on a rock at the beach and H & D passed them, then they must of been pretty close to AC Bar. Thats the place they were staying at in the back ground:

Has it been confirmed they had a row, because i had read that Hannah's friend said she never saw David or Hannah having an argument with anyone?

Another thing is they could of had a gun and forced David to strip at gun point.

It is quite possible that Hannah's friend didn't see any row. But other reports say that unnamed people witnessed the row, and that it was heated.

David may have been skinny dipping. Maybe the green towel was his.

I agree, just because the friend didnt see an altercation, doesnt mean it didnt happen. Just because you're out on a night with people, doesnt mean you're stuck with them every single minute. She could have been at the table whilst the 2 victims were at the bar or vice versa. The place looks big and presumably busy. The 2 victims might have been on their own when the altercation took place. Plus others said it DID happen.

Ok. I've been going through a lot of other rape/murder cases and it seems that mutilation of the body after gang rape is quite common so despite the brutality of the injuries to Hannah's head it might not mean the killers deliberately did it out of anger.

I do not want to sound awful here, but i wonder if the victims lips were swabbed for DNA. Regarding the report that Hannah's lipstick/DNA were found on a LM cigarette with the DNA of 2 Asian men that matched the semen. I think the vile creatures probably put their lips to Hannah's during the rapes. Would that not put Hannah's lipstick/DNA on the lips of the men, so that when the men shared a cigarette after the murder, Hannah's DNA would be present too. I also wonder if Davids DNA could be found on HAnnah's lips if they did share a kiss before they were attacked. This could at least shed light on the relations before the murders.

Well we know David is a smoker, but i guess Hannah could of been a social smoker. I would think it more likely that the killers had a smoke before the murders than stand around after it, admiring their crime. Do you have any info on where about's the cigarette (s) were found?

So anyone any good at deducing Sean's height from the photos, if the victim found in the sea was 170 cm tall.

After spending more time than i probably should have, trying to gather a background on David and Hannah, I just cannot fully accept that David would be unfaithful to his girlfriend back home. David was known infamously as 'Danger Dave', and many friends have shared stories and photos of him fearlessly enjoying stunts and funny antics. He seemed to have very close female and male friends, mutually with his long-term girlfriend. He is described by everyone as wonderful, caring, honourable, special, one of a kind who always had a funny story to tell. For these reasons I cant help think that David and Hannah may not have been romantically involved. But then, on the other side of the coin, I am thinking the exact opposite. David had been to Australia for 6 weeks before Thailand. He had been away from his girlfriend for a long while. Who knows what was agreed between them. If David and Hannah were infact completely alone at that time, then one must wonder if the simplest explanation is often the right one. Male and female found murdered in succluded area of beach near the waves, in the dark early hours, after a night of drinking together with friends on holiday. It would be easy to assume, and looking at the bloody spot in the photos, even easier to assume they were both together in that one spot when first attacked. but were they laying together, or just sitting, watching to waves, chatting. The fact that David was completely naked except for one sock/shoe, is the issue.

In the last knows CCTV of them with friends, i wonder what the last words were to these friends, to alow them to leave Hannah and David knowing they were safe. They must have been together or else Hannah's friends would not have allowed her to wander anywhere on her own i would imagine. All those frids last with them, will know the nature of their relationship at the end of that night. We all must remember, we have been given the information we have. There will be a lot more vital pieces that the public do not know, as it is not our right to. There maybe a definite chain of events that the Police know for fact, with evidence and statements from friends and the clubs full of people, creating a time frame of the night that we do not know yet. between 3-5am in the morning, after a beach party and usual club parties, i find it hard to believe these were the only people on or near the beach. Im confused about the statement that David and Hannah left AC Bar together between 3-4am, because i thought it closed at 2am.

Well the last image of David on CCTV is at 1:56 am. Hannah's friends said that David was 'smitten' with Hannah. In the majority of relationships these days people are unfaithful, so if their half way around the world from their partners, on a party island then its a pretty natural setting for it to happen.

Can you help me with this photo. Wasn't Hannah's body found further along the beach from where these two bloodstained areas are in the foreground of the photo, in between two rocks? If so, then is it not probable that Hannah was attacked and killed at the first spot where she was found with David and then dragged somewhere more concealed to be raped?

You need to look at the photo a bit harder (hint: directly upwards of the blood). She could of been killed at that spot, that's why i wonder if the police took samples from each pool of blood. If it was just one guy then its entirely plausible he killed her first, but since it was 2 guys that had violated her, then its very unlikely you would have 2 necrophiliacs (people who have sex with corpses) together.

The drag marks on Hannah's side are very clean and regulated no sign of struggle at all. David's appears to illustrate a struggle Hannah was at least unconscious or worse sadly dead already.

The brutal final attack I believe may be to cover up something else that the attackers didn't want anyone to find if she were already dead. But definitely no indication of struggle as she was brought to her final resting place.

Thanks for everyone's input. I agree with you Number 3, the two pools of blood at the first spot and the lack of any sign of struggle as Hannah was dragged to the second spot suggest she was already dead, or at least mortally wounded. There is a reason why I asked the question. Every murder investigation needs a body, a weapon and a motive. We have the first two, but the motive is disputed. I myself was leaning to the theory that it was an opportunistic sex attack. But if Hannah was murdered before being raped, then the motive surely changes from sexual to a hateful revenge attack where the objective is to hurt and humiliate Hannah. After disfiguring her pretty face, the last act of degradation was the multiple rape of her corpse. This makes the altercation in the AC bar highly significant. And this is where the police attention should be focused. This row must have been witnessed by many people - tourists, Hannah's friend, bar staff - so the suspects are easy to identify. Then it is a question of DNA testing. So why haven't the police already done this? Well, maybe they already have. Which brings us back to the hasty dawn exit from the island of someone on a speed boat. Was this the bar owner's son? Was he the person who was hassling Hannah in the bar? And is the current police activity with CCTV footage and foreign suspects a disgusting charade? They know who did it, but they've been bought off. What a country!

Has it been confirmed they had a row, because i had read that Hannah's friend said she never saw David or Hannah having an argument with anyone?

Another thing is they could of had a gun and forced David to strip at gun point.

Regarding the photos, Does anybody know where the tide would have actually been around 3-5am here?

We can see poor David in the water, and poor Hannah in the other direction, then this bloody scene with strewn clothes. In earlier reports, there were different clothes mentioned in each article. Some said a skirt, black trousers. Others said a thong, shorts, a t shirt. It looks like 2 t shirts in the photos? One on top of the dark belted shorts/trousers, and one further to the left. Do we have it confirmed what items are there?

I have a theory that im trying to piece together, and the position of the water could tell us a lot more about this scene.

beach5.jpgpost-221359-0-37789300-1411975659.jpgpost-221359-0-83530300-1412056890.jpg

http://www.tidetime.org/asia/thailand/koh-tao.htm

You might be able to work out from that the approximate tide height.

The thong mentioned could of been meaning the thongs for your feet, either Hannah's pink jandals or what looks like 2 black sandals.

In my humble opinion, the way Hannah´s dead body was found (laying on the back with wide spread legs) clearly indicate, that she was raped after she was killed. So why do the RTP only care about the DNA in the semen found on her body, when the killer and the rapists actually very well could be different persons? I believe that whoever killed Hannah, should be found among the persons present in AC Bar that fatal night (foreigner or not). A person who possibly would have showed interest in Hannah there, or had any kind of dispute with her there and followed her when she left the bar. The friends of both victims know exactly what happened in AC Bar that night before the killings, so why were they not required, to stick around and be available for further questioning?

Why do the RTP not check exactly which mobile phones were near the area that night and question all owners about what they saw, heard and did that night?

The CCTV footage of the Asian guy is actually not bad at all, so the RTP should easily be able to digitally enhance the footage and show us all a quite nice portrait of that guy.

I seriously believe that no one in authority anywhere, UK, EUROPE or USA give a damn about any of this. There is no pressure from any outside source.

I am British and find their apparent lack of interest appalling.

jb1

I did read some where that Hannah's friend said she never saw David or Hannah having an argument with anybody.

Can you help me with this photo. Wasn't Hannah's body found further along the beach from where these two bloodstained areas are in the foreground of the photo, in between two rocks? If so, then is it not probable that Hannah was attacked and killed at the first spot where she was found with David and then dragged somewhere more concealed to be raped?

You need to look at the photo a bit harder (hint: directly upwards of the blood). She could of been killed at that spot, that's why i wonder if the police took samples from each pool of blood. If it was just one guy then its entirely plausible he killed her first, but since it was 2 guys that had violated her, then its very unlikely you would have 2 necrophiliacs (people who have sex with corpses) together.

Notice how it is not mentioned anymore about the rape of the male. They only report about the female. I think the fact the guy was raped too says a lot about the mindset of the killers.

I think that's what they assumed originally since David was naked except for his left shoe.

There must have been two similar, green towels on the crime scene, one of them thrown over Hannah's face, and the other in a bundle on a rock close to the water and the body of Dave.

If not, then the people who first arrived at the crime scene and started snapping away, must have been busy carrying one (possibly contaminated) green towel all over the crime scene, which sounds totally weird.

Do you have a photo that has both of them in it?

It probably is just the towel was there so they chucked it over her head

Thanks for posting this picture. Interesting if you look at a distance you see two distinct areas of blood. If you look on a closer level, the left side shows drag marks to the left of screen. The right side of the blood stained sand shows erratic drag marks and quite a lot of them leading to the sea. That side also contains the men's clothes. The underwear appears to be boxers and perhaps denim jeans or shorts with a belt and what looks like David's tshirt.

The left side of screen with the drag marks to the left shows a lot more blood. One wonders as another poster said if Hannah was shot in the head dragged to the rocky enclave and raped. To hide the shooting ...well you know the rest.

I actually think it's obvious on studying this picture that both were physically attacked here at this very spot.

Could the image of one of the "runners" on CCTV be of someone holding a wallet or Hannah's small purse as is seen on the table along with her iPhone in the last picture she was in with the group ?

Well surely the police gathered samples from the ground to determine if they both were seriously injured on that spot, because when the police took David's body out of the water his head was still bleeding heavily so it could be entirely his blood.

I think that might be her wallet on the right.

Words of Hannah's housemate Lucy Dunkley;

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-murder-probe-detectives-vow-4318764#ixzz3EQWEQO3w

Cheers, maybe that other site is blocked in my country.

Are we talking about the YouTube video? Looks like he just sort of scratches his chest both times he walks past. I'm not convinced that he looks up at the camera but I am looking at a tiny iPhone screen.

Also his shorts don't appear too big for him as they may have in the previous still shots that were released. I don't think David was exactly tubby though so his shorts could still fit this bloke.

If that guy is connected to the crime he would have to be the witness that didnt partake because why otherwise would you keep on running around near the scene, especially if the accomplices have buggered off.

The link for Hannah's friend, Lucy Dunkley, saying that the friends who were out there with her said David was obviously smitten with Hannah, is to a news paper I don't think is allowed here? I will post it but just remove if not allowed sorry

http://dailyreportage.com/thailand_murder_probe_detectives_vow_the_net_closing_the_h_1235555.html

Sorry, it says the page is unavailable.

Well if that guy on the CCTV is supposed to be the guy who supposedly changed his pants from the black ones to David's white shorts then that's not a good sign. Because he going back and forwards over an hour and those shorts he is wearing dont look over sized for him.