newnative

So, no apology to the actress; just an apology for getting caught.

More and more, I no longer recognize America. Sad.

And current owners who are swimmers are likely quite happy all those back units are mostly empty since the pool is small relative to the total number of units in the project.

Hmm. Am I detecting a bit of jealousy. For someone who professes to having no interest whatsoever in buying you sure spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing about it. Don't worry your pretty little head--my partner and I are doing just fine.

Everything already replied to in earlier posts. You're just repeating yourself over and over.

I'm not 'refuting' anything--just waiting for your list of the 700 stores T21 put out of business when it opened 700 new stores. You preach doom and gloom but where is your evidence? Yes, some 7-11s in the tourist areas closed during covid. Likely most have or will reopen--supply and demand at work. Will all 3 7-11s on the Darkside in close proximity to each other that I mentioned succeed? Who knows? As I said, we'll see. Their 'fate' will be determined by supply and demand--and maybe customers being too lazy to cross the street. In any case, I am likely to have at least one 7-11 nearby. As you can probably tell, I am not losing sleep on it. Also no sleep lost on the number of malls Pattaya has. It all gets sorted out. Will an older mall, not well-managed with, perhaps an unattractive mix and/or lack of stores fail at some point? Perhaps. It's business. I know you'll respond, how heartless, but that's that. It's the way business works. And, hey, It might morph into something terrific and be a plus, instead of something marginal limping along. Think positive sometime.

Yes, personal observations have their place, but not with something like statistics. Someone 'on the ground' making the observation that he has only seen Chinese shop at 7-11s and, therefore, Chinese tourists only benefit 7-11s, really is useless observation. Give me actual stats. You, yourself, are frequently focusing on one business, finding it not busy, and then asking if Pattaya is 'thriving', since this particular business isn't. You need to look at the big picture, not one or two businesses. You have also made the observation that the 'numbers' were up but the 'spend' was down in 2019. Again, just one person's observation. How useful is that? Where are your stats to back up your 'observation'? Please don't do the usual cop out--you don't believe the stats. That translates to: I don't have any statistics to back up my observation--I'm just blowing my usual smoke and hoping nobody calls me on it. (Hello, McDonalds and Orlando.) Yes, my partner and I do some personal observation of the property market in Pattaya. We visit about every new big condo project that comes on the market, look at sample units for sale, check the number of bookings, talk to the sales staff, etc. We chit chat with agents when we run into them. I belong to a number of Facebook property groups and every morning I see listings from them on Facebook--helps keep current with samples of what's on the market, pricing, etc. Lately we have been focusing on new housing projects on the Darkside, of which there are many. In the past few weeks we have looked at a number of them. Meanwhile, how about you? You're forever making your 'observations' on real estate. Ever actually do any homework to back up your observations? Several times I have invited you to actually go out and do some observation of your own. Remember me asking you to check the percentage sold at the Riviera projects? Or, any of the other projects that I listed in the post? Ever actually do that to learn something on your own?

If someone wants to own a vanity project and sustain losses rather than close, that's up to them. Normal supply and demand functions in Pattaya, just like everywhere else. I refer back to my recent post on 7-11s in the tourist area during covid. If there is too much or too little of something, eventually it will get sorted out. When a city is thriving, those closed store fronts will, at some point, be filled with other stores, catering to the current market demographic. Or, they may get bulldozed and replaced with something else--lots of that happening in Pattaya. Next. My partner and I have sold everything from a 24 sqm studio condo to a 3 bedroom 124 sqm oceanfront condo--and about everything in between. And, a house. In every case, the studio was not in competition with 3 bedrooms; the 3 bedroom was not in competition with 1 bedrooms, the 1 bedroom was not in competition with two bedrooms, and so on. The only competition was other similar-sized and priced condos for sale in that same area. My advice to your studio condo owner would be the same as what we always follow: Declutter and remove any personal stuff--photos, bowling trophies, etc. The buyer wants to picture himself in the condo, not you. Take a hard look at the space from a buyer's viewpoint. Make sure everything is in working order, there is nothing broken or damaged, there is no peeling paint or wallpaper, etc., and the condo is kept spotless and ready to show at a few minutes notice. That especially applies to the kitchen and baths. Do some homework on your competition. What do they look like compared to yours? What's the view compared to yours? Higher or lower floor? Any extras they have? What is their pricing? All this can help you in your pricing, which is key and can sometimes be hard to pinpoint. We leave some 'wiggle room' while still allowing for a profit but it's important to be realistic. You can get some feedback on pricing from some of the listing realtors. Email good quality photos, including those of the condo project, and a good description, to all the agencies, starting with the ones closest to your property. Try to hit them all--you never know who will have a client. You can also post on other sites yourself, including Facebook, Craigslist, Hipflat, and others. Let the condo office staff know it is for sale, too. The key is getting your property out there, seen and known about. Unless you are in dire financial straits, it's important to be patient, if you can. We have had condos sell quickly and we have had condos take a year or more to sell. Patience is a virtue. And, usual disclaimer: Renting is often the better choice for many here in Thailand, especially for those of the opinion that there's not much involved in the buying process and one can be 'flexible' about what they buy.

No, going broke is not the same as having financial problems. And, she doesn't even specifically say she, herself, is having financial problems--she refers to 'some restaurant owners'. In another post, you also said she was 'hemorrhaging money every month'--something else that she never said. It's your pattern of misquoting, selectively editing, and putting your words and thoughts in someone else's mouth--you do it with me all the time. Not a good look. You've never been to Orlando and 'have no idea if there were hamburger shops' but that didn't stop you from making the statement. I went back and found it and quoted it several weeks ago--I think in the thread 'How are the bars, restaurants, etc. doing'. Feel free to go back and look for it yourself.

We've done about 20 projects in Thailand, starting with the first studio condo in Rayong, which was all we could afford, splitting the costs to buy it and using the profit when we sold to buy the next, and the next after that. And, so on.

Personal observations have their place, of course. But we have a member who observes some Chinese at 7-11 and Family Mart and he then posts that the Chinese tourists only shop and eat at 7-11 and Family Mart, with no other Thai businesses benefitting. We have another member who observes that his favorite Pattaya bar is not busy so, therefore, Pattaya is not 'thriving'. I think hard statistics can be meaningful. Less than 500,000 international tourists in 2021. About 11 million in 2022. 531 billion baht spent in Thailand by tourists from one country in 2019. Both stats are meaningful, in my opinion. 2021 was a big black eye for TAT. Why didn't TAT pad the numbers? Same for 2014, the year of the coup--the tourists numbers dropped and I'm sure the coup generals were not happy to see tourism drop on their watch--TAT could have curried some favor by padding the numbers and likely nobody would have been the wiser--but there's that glaring drop in black and white.

Well, except you didn't quote the restaurant owner, did you? Instead, you said she is 'going broke'. Did she actually say that? No. What she said was things have been 'quiet' and some restaurant owners have been having 'financial problems'. She also said that some restaurants have not 'fully recovered'. Makes sense and that's quite different from incorrectly saying she is 'going broke'. As you do so often with me, you are putting words in her mouth that she didn't say--and didn't mean. So, no I am not, as you say, 'suggesting she is lying'. You are the one doing the lying. The 'fake news' is coming from you. In any case, I still prefer hard statistics, not someone's opinion or observation on a subject. For example, you said in another post that McDonald's had put all the other hamburger shops in Orlando out of business. Hmm. I didn't know that. Had not read about that anywhere. Seems like it should have been on the news. Now, should I believe the claim of just one person, you, or maybe ask for some statistics that back up your claim?

Perhaps that's true--I don't know anything about the bar scene and don't post about it. I think it is true for most everything else. A good example of supply and demand was on display during covid. A number of the 7-11s in the north Pattaya area where my partner and I were living at the time closed down. There was just too much supply and not enough demand from local residents and domestic tourists to support all of them. We were left with a few that stayed open--that was enough for the demand at that time. At this same time, we were renovating a house on the Darkside and we were over there a lot. We didn't notice a single 7-11 that had closed down. Perhaps a few did but we never saw a closed one. The ones we saw in the areas we were at were all open and doing a brisk business. Why? Even during covid there were still plenty of people living on the Darkside--still producing enough demand for the supply. Recently, here on the Darkside near Lake Mabprachan, a brand new 7-11 opened right across the street from an older, smaller one. There is also a third 7-11 about a hundred yards down the street at the gas station. Will all 3 survive? We'll see.

I have no idea whether there is or is not an oversupply of bars--or anything else. Nor do I lose sleep over it. I have been 'vocal' that supply and demand will eventually sort things out if there is too much of this and too little of that. I have been 'vocal' that some businesses succeed and some fail--which Leaver finds cruel and heartless--but that's the world of business. I have corrected Leaver when he makes incorrect statements. Such as T21 opening 700 new stores and 700 older stores elsewhere went out of business, for a net gain of 'zero'. Actually, that's pretty cruel to think that, especially when it isn't true. I have tried to explain retail synergy to Leaver, without success. For him, it will always be 700 stores open, 700 other stores must fail. I have tried to explain to Leaver why the number of studio condos for sale matters not a whit when I am selling a 2 bedroom condo, also without success. I have tried to get Leaver to stop misquoting me, to stop selectively editing me, and to stop putting words and thoughts in my mouth that I didn't think or say, also without success.

As I said, buyers don't go to closing for a variety of reasons--probably the biggest being unable to secure financing. Original buyers that had to pull out at The Base and did not go to closing were likely all kicking themselves later--prices went up after it opened. They had a low, pre-construction price that they had to give up. Some sold their contracts to other buyers--my partner and I bought one and we got one of the few top floor condos with a single corridor floor--no condos but just windows on the other side of the hallway. Original buyers would have been hard-pressed not to make a profit when they sold. You remain obsessed with the total number of properties for sale when that number is not the important one. As I've said before, I'm only interested in the number of properties for sale that somewhat match what I am looking to either buy or to sell. Maybe read that twice and let it sink in. If I am buying, and later selling, a 3 bedroom seaview condo in Wong Amat (which I did), it's totally irrelevant how many studio condos are on the market for sale--that applies to Pattaya and to anywhere else. How many properties, in the area I am interested in, meet my price and my wants and needs when I am buying? Usually, it's just a handful, as my partner and I always have a number of wants and needs. And, conversely when I am selling, how many other properties for sale in my area come close to matching my property in price, size, view, interior design, amenities, etc. ? Usually, it's also just a handful.

Neither. I'm looking for actual statistics, not opinions from this person or that association. You said the 'numbers' were up but the 'spend' was down in 2019. Where are your actual statistics to back up your claim? And, again, what 'numbers', what 'spend'?

Any actual statistics on your claim that the 'numbers' were up but the 'spend' was down in 2019? And, what numbers and what spend, for what group or groups?

Totally wrong regarding The Base. You seem to have reading comprehension problems. As I said, the booked units that buyers could not complete the transfer on were put back up for sale and the units were bought by other buyers. How is that so difficult to comprehend? It's totally normal and common with all new projects--some buyers, for whatever reason, will not be able to transfer and the units are then sold to other buyers. You do not need to be an agent to look up properties for sale. You managed to do it yourself and, apparently, found 536 villas and condos for sale in Pattaya on a website. Now, how many of those villas listed for sale would be suitable for a buyer looking for a studio condo? How many of those studios listed for sale would be suitable for a buyer looking for a 2 bedroom condo? We haven't even factored in location, price, or wants and needs. Are you starting to finally get the picture? You are correct that there are many duplicate listings, and also listings that have been sold. Hipflat has 182 units for sale at Northshore--in a project with only 187 units in total. Obviously, many duplicates and listings for sold units, including one my partner and I sold last year--it's still listed 7 times. That's one of the reasons I don't claim to know how many properties are actually for sale. I've explained in an earlier post 'why they keep building more'. Basically, 'they' can sell the units. Wow, that was simple. Nobody buys, 'they' don't build 'more'. Also simple. Time for you to maybe make your rounds of some condo projects and find out the percentage sold--remember that is different than 'booked'. Feel free to check any of the numerous projects I mentioned in my previous post.

If you don't want optimism, why did you post this: Can you not throw some of your optimism her way, as she is hemorrhaging money every month?

It's from the Office of Statistics. It's statistics, not an article. It's been posted several times. Keep up--or look it up yourself. 61% of 11 million Chinese tourists in 2019 equals 6,700,000.

As a former owner at VT3, 5C, 5D, and 7, you nailed it.

I'm not promoting 'this image' or 'denying' tour groups. I am simply citing a fact from the Bureau of Statistics--which has no stake or ax to grind on whatever the figures end up being. My point is to correct misperceptions--some of which I have had. I've said several times that I was also surprised at the 61% figure. Obviously, a big bus of tour group Chinese makes far more of an impression than a Chinese family or couple traveling independently, quietly going about their business. Perceptions can be faulty. Yes, as I have already posted, Chinese, and other Asian visitors, spend less than visitors from America and Europe. As I have also already said, Middle Eastern visitors spent the most in 2019--72,000 baht each. But, in 2019 there were less than 100,000 of them. I'll also ask again, would you rather have 100,000 checks for 72,000 baht sent to you or would you rather have 10.9 million checks for 48,000 baht sent to you? I'm going to choose the latter. Which provides more benefit to the Thai economy? Obviously, the latter, as well. While tourists benefit the economy, there is no denying that too many can be too much of a good thing--true for other places and not just Thailand. (Hello, Venice.) Thailand at some point will need to address how much is too much; but that doesn't seem to be anytime soon when they are crowing about possibly 80 million tourists in a few years--more than the entire population of the country.

As always, deflection when you have no answer. And, in this case, incorrect deflection. The Base was fully booked long before its completion--I think even before ground was broken. Of course, booked does not mean sold. At the project's completion, several hundred units that were booked came back on the market when the buyers could not complete the sale. Sansiri then sold these units to other buyers. In any case, your incorrect deflection is totally irrelevant to what I posted, that The Base and Markland have increased in value--with nice and new development going in near them. Your big howler, though, is your claim that there are no buyers looking for seaview condos. According to you, 'That ship sailed years ago...'. Seriously? Nobody is that clueless. Several weeks ago I sent you on an assignment to check the condo sales at Riviera Wong Amat and then go to Riviera Jomtien and then to Riviera Monaco. You should have learned something. All three of these projects were not built 'years ago' and, with all three, the majority of the units offer a seaview. If nobody is buying seaview condos, how did these projects get majority sold? Ditto for Unixx, Zire, Northpoint. Wong Amat Tower. Baan Plai Haad. Centric Sea. Lumpini Park Beach. Northshore. Cetus. The Cliff. The Palm. Amari. Reflection. Aeras. And, any other project you can mention with seaview units. Talk to any condo sales person and they'll tell you the seaview condos with the best views get booked first. What's the value of a seaview condo? A 72 sqm condo on floor 7 at Northpoint is listed at 7.5MB. No seaview. Same condo, floor 29 with seaview, 10.25MB. You'll find similar examples at every condo project I listed, and any others offering seaview units and non-seaview units. Just as an aside, my partner and I have only ever bought seaview units in Pattaya and its worked out nicely. So, Client 2 is wisely still looking for a condo in north Pattaya beach, killer seaview, at least 60 sqm, foreign name, and budget of 9MB. How are you doing finding him something from your 'thousands' of unsold condos for sale? I've found him a 68 sqm unit at Northshore. Foreign quota, nice seaview, floor 26, 7.9MB. There is also a 64 sqm condo on floor 25 for 8.5MB. And, another 64 sqm unit on floor 17 for 8.9MB. Also an 80 sqm unit on floor 20 for 9MB and a 64 sqm on floor 21 for 9MB. Markland has a 1 bedroom 70 sqm lower floor with not really a 'killer seaview" for 4.9MB. Foreign quota was not mentioned in the listing--would have to be checked. Centric Sea does not have 1 bedrooms in the 60 sqm range. He could buy a 2 bedroom 58 sqm on floor 33 for 6.2MB. Also one on floor 39 for 6.3MB. A 68 sqm on floor 28 offers better seaviews than the previous units. It's 7.9MB. Ditto for a 60 sqm on floor 28 for 8.2MB. So, looks like Northshore or Centric Sea offer Client 2 about the only realistic choices for what he is looking for. As I said in a previous post, your 'thousands' of condos for sale get whittled down to a handful of choices at this project, a handful at that project, when location, price, and wants and needs are plugged in. It will be the same for Client 1 looking for the 2 bedroom in Wong Amat--there will be a few here, a few there to look at with the various projects, not your 'thousands'. Client 3, looking for the 1 bedroom in Jomtien, will have the most choices as there are more condo projects in Jomtien than in north Pattaya and Wong Amat--and more of the small 1 bedrooms she is looking for. But, again, not your 'thousands'.

You first.

Asked and answered. But, here's some 'optimism'. There were less than 500,000 international tourists in 2021. 2022 brought about 11 million. 20 some million are predicted for 2023. She should have more customers this year than the previous two years.