newnative

Good to know. Leaver says there's 'no one'.

Totally clueless--especially your comment on 'cheap Darkside sales'. You are really in the dark. (small pun) Totally clueless but, yet, still totally obsessed. And, still sitting at the keyboard instead of doing any actual observation other than the bar areas. Broaden your horizons.

Pity you don't ever go out and actually 'observe' anything other than this or that bar or restaurant in the small area you frequent. You go on and on, post after post, about '...they are still building more.', yet you never go to the condo projects, as I've suggested, and check on how the sales are. What's the percentage sold at Cetus? Reflection? the Rivieras? Zire? The Palm? Northpoint? Aeras? Centric Sea? The Base? Edge? Wong Amat Tower? Baan Plai Haad? Arom Wong Amat? Pattaya Posh? Any idea? Doubt you've been to any of the many new housing estates on the Darkside to check sales there, either. Easier to pull up a realty website from your keyboard and see there are 'thousands' of listings and that's all there is to know--or learn. No other 'observation' needed.

Still obsessed, I see.

Addressed many times. You simply don't like the narrative because it does not fit your often-stated view that Pattaya is not 'thriving' unless every single business is doing well. So, you keep asking the same question over and over, hoping for a different answer. Maybe go back and re-read my posts and those of others if you want something to do.

I'd never buy any property with a lease.

So, in a nutshell, it's Yogi Berra's "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

First thing that struck me when I read your post was "To the moon and back!" Not sure why--it just flew into my head. Thank you for misrepresenting what I said. You and Leaver should do lunch. For the record, I do not '...believe all Chinese visitors are heading for Pattaya and T21'. However, in 2019, 61% of the Chinese visitors were traveling independently. That comes to around 6.7 million. What I do believe is that some of them, as well as some Chinese tourist groups, did, indeed, find their way to Pattaya and T21--and, likely will again. Along with that, I also believe that some of the 1 million UK visitors in 2019 also found their way to Pattaya and T21. Ditto for Americans, Europeans, etc. From numerous visits to T21, and not just one visit years ago, it was my 'observation' that T21 was attracting an international mix of visitors--but, just my observation. If you've spent any time in Pattaya in recent years you'll know that the area around T21 has become extremely popular with visitors--both international and domestic. Several large, major hotels have opened there, including Mitt, Ozo, Grand Centre Point, Brighton, Centre Point Space, and others; to join the other large hotels already there, including Holiday Inn, Amari--with a new addition, Dusit, Discovery Beach--with a new wing, and A-01.

Well, TAT 'says' only 428,000 international visitors for 2021. If there ever was a year to pad the numbers, that was it.

I was one of those who laughed at the prediction of 10 million tourists for 2022--and it came in at 11 million and change. We'll see.

Again, I'll go with statistics rather than 1 person observations based on a single visit years ago. If I was doing observations, I would trust mine over yours, based on numerous visits to T21 at various times of the year, at various times of the week, and at various times of the day.

Totally agree regarding local government offices. One is in this part of town. Another is in that part of town. Almost all are in inconvenient locations, are too small, and lack enough parking. The old, decrepit City Hall, sitting on now very valuable land, needs to be bulldozed and a new government complex built that houses all the agencies and has ample parking. Pattaya has grown way too large to function well with small agency spaces that were set up years ago. Pipe dream, of course.

Any actual statistics (not an 'observation') showing Pattaya's tourism was 'declining gradually prior to 2019'? I ask because I question that was the case, as Thailand's international tourism was showing a steady rise each year except for 2014, the year of the coup, when it declined slightly.

Flew on the 747 for the very first time as a college student in the early 70s, Dulles to San Francisco on TWA. It was, indeed, a revelation--I remember thinking how can something this big fly. My last flight--so far--on a 747 was in December 2019, Lufthansa , Dulles to Frankfort. Packed flight. As we took off, German college students going home for Christmas started singing Christmas carols. I hope I have not taken my last 747 flight.

So, no apology to the actress; just an apology for getting caught.

More and more, I no longer recognize America. Sad.

And current owners who are swimmers are likely quite happy all those back units are mostly empty since the pool is small relative to the total number of units in the project.

Hmm. Am I detecting a bit of jealousy. For someone who professes to having no interest whatsoever in buying you sure spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing about it. Don't worry your pretty little head--my partner and I are doing just fine.

Everything already replied to in earlier posts. You're just repeating yourself over and over.

I'm not 'refuting' anything--just waiting for your list of the 700 stores T21 put out of business when it opened 700 new stores. You preach doom and gloom but where is your evidence? Yes, some 7-11s in the tourist areas closed during covid. Likely most have or will reopen--supply and demand at work. Will all 3 7-11s on the Darkside in close proximity to each other that I mentioned succeed? Who knows? As I said, we'll see. Their 'fate' will be determined by supply and demand--and maybe customers being too lazy to cross the street. In any case, I am likely to have at least one 7-11 nearby. As you can probably tell, I am not losing sleep on it. Also no sleep lost on the number of malls Pattaya has. It all gets sorted out. Will an older mall, not well-managed with, perhaps an unattractive mix and/or lack of stores fail at some point? Perhaps. It's business. I know you'll respond, how heartless, but that's that. It's the way business works. And, hey, It might morph into something terrific and be a plus, instead of something marginal limping along. Think positive sometime.

Yes, personal observations have their place, but not with something like statistics. Someone 'on the ground' making the observation that he has only seen Chinese shop at 7-11s and, therefore, Chinese tourists only benefit 7-11s, really is useless observation. Give me actual stats. You, yourself, are frequently focusing on one business, finding it not busy, and then asking if Pattaya is 'thriving', since this particular business isn't. You need to look at the big picture, not one or two businesses. You have also made the observation that the 'numbers' were up but the 'spend' was down in 2019. Again, just one person's observation. How useful is that? Where are your stats to back up your 'observation'? Please don't do the usual cop out--you don't believe the stats. That translates to: I don't have any statistics to back up my observation--I'm just blowing my usual smoke and hoping nobody calls me on it. (Hello, McDonalds and Orlando.) Yes, my partner and I do some personal observation of the property market in Pattaya. We visit about every new big condo project that comes on the market, look at sample units for sale, check the number of bookings, talk to the sales staff, etc. We chit chat with agents when we run into them. I belong to a number of Facebook property groups and every morning I see listings from them on Facebook--helps keep current with samples of what's on the market, pricing, etc. Lately we have been focusing on new housing projects on the Darkside, of which there are many. In the past few weeks we have looked at a number of them. Meanwhile, how about you? You're forever making your 'observations' on real estate. Ever actually do any homework to back up your observations? Several times I have invited you to actually go out and do some observation of your own. Remember me asking you to check the percentage sold at the Riviera projects? Or, any of the other projects that I listed in the post? Ever actually do that to learn something on your own?

If someone wants to own a vanity project and sustain losses rather than close, that's up to them. Normal supply and demand functions in Pattaya, just like everywhere else. I refer back to my recent post on 7-11s in the tourist area during covid. If there is too much or too little of something, eventually it will get sorted out. When a city is thriving, those closed store fronts will, at some point, be filled with other stores, catering to the current market demographic. Or, they may get bulldozed and replaced with something else--lots of that happening in Pattaya. Next. My partner and I have sold everything from a 24 sqm studio condo to a 3 bedroom 124 sqm oceanfront condo--and about everything in between. And, a house. In every case, the studio was not in competition with 3 bedrooms; the 3 bedroom was not in competition with 1 bedrooms, the 1 bedroom was not in competition with two bedrooms, and so on. The only competition was other similar-sized and priced condos for sale in that same area. My advice to your studio condo owner would be the same as what we always follow: Declutter and remove any personal stuff--photos, bowling trophies, etc. The buyer wants to picture himself in the condo, not you. Take a hard look at the space from a buyer's viewpoint. Make sure everything is in working order, there is nothing broken or damaged, there is no peeling paint or wallpaper, etc., and the condo is kept spotless and ready to show at a few minutes notice. That especially applies to the kitchen and baths. Do some homework on your competition. What do they look like compared to yours? What's the view compared to yours? Higher or lower floor? Any extras they have? What is their pricing? All this can help you in your pricing, which is key and can sometimes be hard to pinpoint. We leave some 'wiggle room' while still allowing for a profit but it's important to be realistic. You can get some feedback on pricing from some of the listing realtors. Email good quality photos, including those of the condo project, and a good description, to all the agencies, starting with the ones closest to your property. Try to hit them all--you never know who will have a client. You can also post on other sites yourself, including Facebook, Craigslist, Hipflat, and others. Let the condo office staff know it is for sale, too. The key is getting your property out there, seen and known about. Unless you are in dire financial straits, it's important to be patient, if you can. We have had condos sell quickly and we have had condos take a year or more to sell. Patience is a virtue. And, usual disclaimer: Renting is often the better choice for many here in Thailand, especially for those of the opinion that there's not much involved in the buying process and one can be 'flexible' about what they buy.

No, going broke is not the same as having financial problems. And, she doesn't even specifically say she, herself, is having financial problems--she refers to 'some restaurant owners'. In another post, you also said she was 'hemorrhaging money every month'--something else that she never said. It's your pattern of misquoting, selectively editing, and putting your words and thoughts in someone else's mouth--you do it with me all the time. Not a good look. You've never been to Orlando and 'have no idea if there were hamburger shops' but that didn't stop you from making the statement. I went back and found it and quoted it several weeks ago--I think in the thread 'How are the bars, restaurants, etc. doing'. Feel free to go back and look for it yourself.

We've done about 20 projects in Thailand, starting with the first studio condo in Rayong, which was all we could afford, splitting the costs to buy it and using the profit when we sold to buy the next, and the next after that. And, so on.

Personal observations have their place, of course. But we have a member who observes some Chinese at 7-11 and Family Mart and he then posts that the Chinese tourists only shop and eat at 7-11 and Family Mart, with no other Thai businesses benefitting. We have another member who observes that his favorite Pattaya bar is not busy so, therefore, Pattaya is not 'thriving'. I think hard statistics can be meaningful. Less than 500,000 international tourists in 2021. About 11 million in 2022. 531 billion baht spent in Thailand by tourists from one country in 2019. Both stats are meaningful, in my opinion. 2021 was a big black eye for TAT. Why didn't TAT pad the numbers? Same for 2014, the year of the coup--the tourists numbers dropped and I'm sure the coup generals were not happy to see tourism drop on their watch--TAT could have curried some favor by padding the numbers and likely nobody would have been the wiser--but there's that glaring drop in black and white.