newnative

For a start, ban tourists from renting motorcycles.

I don't know anything about Udon Thani but I do know Pattaya, having lived here for 14 years. My advice, however, would be the same no matter what two places you were considering. I think the most important thing for you to do is to first take an honest, hard look at your lifestyle. What are your interests? How do you spend your time each day? Any hobbies or things that you like to do that one place or the other might be better for? What is a typical week like for you? How is your health? Are you a social butterfly or a hermit--or something in-between? Do you like to have other farangs around to socialize with or would you prefer some place with fewer? What sports do you play, or other physical activities, such as going to the gym, snorkeling, etc. What do you see yourself living in--rented condo or rented house? What's the budget you have to work with for either? Are you looking to keep your usual routine when you move or are you looking to shake things up with your life and make some changes? Once you have done your lifestyle review, one or the other of the two places you are considering might come out on top--for you. For someone else it might be the opposite--depending on their lifestyle. For my spouse and myself, Pattaya was the best choice for us, after we first lived on the beach outside of Rayong, and found it too isolated and limiting--for us. Pattaya was a much better fit for our lifestyle. We arrived with limited funds. Fortunately, Pattaya has an abundance of different housing available, both to rent or own, at all price points. We started with a small condo we bought--all we could afford. As our finances improved, so did our housing. Over the years, we have sampled about all of Pattaya's neighborhoods, each with its own vibe. There's a neighborhood in Pattaya that likely has what would suit just about anyone--depending on their lifestyle. Beachside, I think my favorite neighborhood was Wongamat. I liked that it was quieter but still close to the places we spent time, such as Terminal 21, Central Festival, Big C Marina, the big box stores. Bangkok Hospital wasn't far and I liked the beach right outside our condo. As we got older, our needs changed and we wanted more space and privacy than a condo offered. Again, Pattaya had a wide variety of houses, and housing projects, for us to choose from and we ended up on the Darkside near beautiful Lake Mabprachan. We're finding a whole new world in this part of Pattaya, and liking it a lot. If you venture away from the adult entertainment area, which is actually small in relation to all the other areas, you'll find that Pattaya can be a great place to live year-round--whether you are on a small budget or a large one. But, for you, choose what city works best for your budget and lifestyle.

And, how he could have come up with that baffling interpretation is beyond me.

Very few AN readers would have read, and commented, on this much ado about nothing article if it had not been incorrectly headlined as happening on Pattaya Beach.

Totally agree. A handful of cases, way over-publicized. As you said, 35 million tourists, the vast majority acting normally. No different than tourists places all over the world attracting very large numbers. Much ado about nothing.

There's plenty that's stunning in Pattaya. For much of it, though, you need to get away from the touristy areas. Although, even with that, I'm of the opinion, having had a condo with a beautiful Pattaya beach and shoreline view, that the beach, if maybe not stunning, is still quite attractive with the improvements that have been made. I certainly enjoyed looking at it from my balcony with my morning coffee and an evening drink with the sunset, watching the lights come on in the shoreline highrises.

I don't need to ask myself. Pattaya is 'always in the news' because stories about Pattaya garner more clicks, for whatever reason. Pattaya is the 15th most visited city in the world by international tourists, just behind Phuket at #14. Of course there will be incidents like this, with millions of tourists visiting and intent on cutting loose while on vacation and having a good time. This story is a good example of your 'Pattaya always in the news'. Some drunks in a 'brawl'. Really a nothing story--and would be a nothing story in other popular tourist places like Miami or Vegas. But, so far it has produced 3 pages of comments on Asean Now--with a significant number of the comments not on the 'brawl' at all but objecting to Pattaya's beach being called 'stunning'. Arguably a more important story in the same news feed, regarding the arrest of a Chinese tourist for suspected human trafficking, has, as of this writing, produced zero comments.

They're already here--with plenty more on the way. Pattaya certainly has them. Mercedes just opened a fancy, new dealership--and I thought the 'old' one--just a few years old--was quite nice. That one will be for used Mercedes--apparently enough of a market here that it needs its own space. Just about every other luxury car brand has also set up shop, along with a number of the Chinese brands. From Audi to Zeekr, they're here. Beachside, Arom Wongamat is selling smallish 82 sqm 2-bedroom condos for 16MB. That's 195,000 baht a sqm. Copacabana, a fairly new project in Jomtien, has even smaller 72 sqm 2-bedrooms for 18MB. That's 250,000 baht a sqm. Back in Wongamat, a new project just getting started called Once Wongamat, near the Circle, will have high-floor 73 sqm 2-bedroom condos for 19.3MB, 265,000 baht a sqm. That project will supposedly be the tallest in the Pattaya area. Several other mega condo projects, likely equally pricey, are under construction or soon will be. Just for comparison purposes, the 1 bedroom/1 bath condo my spouse and I owned at Northshore was 79 sqm and neither of us thought it was especially spacious. Paying about double for about the same space as our very nice NS condo means you are attracting some affluent buyers. As someone who knows a little bit about condos in Pattaya, I am rather astounded that these super-pricey projects have been built with these breath-taking price tags, for not especially spacious condos--and with more proposed. Over on the Darkside, by Lake Mabprachan, D-Space III has pool villas for sale for 49MB. Siam Royal View has a house listed for 189MB, as well as a number of others ranging from 23MB to 150MB. One of the larger projects on the Darkside, the starting prices at SRV are now around 18MB for some of the original smaller homes. As dear old Dad used to say, 'Too rich for my blood.' There are new housing projects scattered all over the Darkside, which is a booming area. Many of the new projects have starting prices of 12MB or more. One example of what is happening on the Darkside: The Baan Pattaya company has built 6 projects, all successful. The first 6 projects had houses with starting prices under 10MB, with somewhat escalating prices as the projects were built and material and land costs rose. Baan Pattaya 7, just breaking ground, is a departure. The houses will have a completely different look and the starting prices will be much higher--14MB. This points to where the single-family housing market is heading in Pattaya, with builders targeting the more affluent buyers who are either relocating to Pattaya or are investing in luxury property to rent out--also a growing market here. Just scratching the surface with my remarks, but it is indeed eye-opening when my spouse and I drive around and tour some of these really nice, new high-end projects, which we have been doing a lot of lately. We could probably visit a new project every week and never run out of new ones to visit. To conclude with what I started with, the affluent foreigners are already here--and have been here for years. Some are my neighbors.

Spouse and I have not found owning here to be a 'shackle' on our lives. And, we are apparently restless, move at the drop-of-a-hat types. We arrived in Thailand in 2009 and started in Rayong. Bought one condo, lived in it for awhile, then bought another one. After a time, we decided we wanted to live in Pattaya so we sold the second Rayong condo and moved to Pattaya in December 2010. Since our move to Pattaya, we have hopscotched all over town, always owning wherever we moved and selling when we got restless and wanted to try living somewhere else. We started at View Talay 3 and our last condo we owned was at Northshore--with 9 stops at different condo projects between those two--if I have counted correctly. When covid hit, the condo's pool and gym closed down. We decided it was time for another change so we sold our 1 bedroom 1 bath condo with a gorgeous ocean and shore view and we decamped to the Darkside--which we had hardly ever visited and knew little about. We bought a large 3 bedroom 3.5 bath pool villa right across from Lake Mabprachan in a nice housing project. After buying and renovating it, we still had 500,000 baht left from our Northshore sale. So, big pool villa for less than a 1 bedroom condo. As I have said before, real estate is topsy-turvy here. Lived in the house for awhile, got restless, sold it, and bought another pool villa on the other side of the lake. Fixed that one up, lived in it for awhile, and then decided we would try our hand at building a house from the ground up, so we could design everything from the get-go to accommodate and highlight our antique Asian furniture and art. The first house turned out quite well and rapidly increased in value once the project was finished. Bought one of the last vacant lots in the same project and last year built a bigger version of the first house, with one more bedroom and bath and a bigger master bedroom and Thai kitchen, while selling the other house. And, that's where we are--for now. We are loving living on the Darkside and, especially the beautiful Lake Mabprachan area. We like having our own pool and home gym, and enough space for family to visit. We also like having an EV charger in the garage for our plug-in hybrid suv. Non-rush hour, it's an easy 15 minute drive to T21, Central Festival, Index, Home Pro, the hospital, and everything else around there. We can also be at Big C South Pattaya in 15 minutes--with no traffic lights until we hit the shopping center. By my count that's 15 moves, about one a year. Several of our friends also own, and have also sold and moved to other places they have bought. But, I think we hold the record as frequent fliers, err, buyers.

A good example of why I've recommended using reputable real estate lawyers to work with you when buying or selling property here. Make sure they provide you with a photocopy of their lawyer's license and current, not expired, certificate. They will review the contract and any other paperwork to make sure your interests are protected and the contract has everything in it that you want, and nothing in it that you don't want. Review the finalized contract carefully and make sure you understand and are ok with all the clauses before signing. At the contract signing your lawyer will make sure, as the seller, that you receive the agreed upon non-refundable down payment by cashier's check in your name, which, depending on the contract, either you or your lawyer will hold until closing. On the closing date, which they have scheduled in advance, they will deal with the Land Office staff, review all the documents, explain what you are signing, deal with the tax and other closing cost payments, insure that you receive your closing paperwork, and, finally, they will only give the Chanote to the buyer when you, as the seller, have received in your hand the final payment due by cashier's check in your name. If you are buying, you should also have your own lawyer to protect your interests in the same way, especially if you are new to the whole buying/selling process, which can and usually does move much faster here than property transactions in places like the US or the UK.

Feel like you? No, not at all. I like that sales staff take the time to check that all the contents are in a package before I get home and discover something is missing. Nice to know everything is there. In my experience, they carefully repack the box and reseal it--and I haven't noticed any dirty hands with sales staff. We just bought a new car and when we picked it up we were presented with a large bouquet of fresh flowers. And, an assortment of drinks and snacks in the very nice waiting room while we finished the paperwork. The sales person took all the time in the world to explain the car's new features--which were plenty--and patiently and politely answered all the questions we had. And, yes, they took our photo standing next to the new car with a big red bow on it--I found that to be a very nice and endearing gesture. Buying a new car is a very big deal here for a lot of Thais--and, actually, for my spouse and me, too--and the dealers know this--and let their customers know, too. We left the dealership feeling appreciated, and well cared for. We have also called a number of times with questions that have come up and the salesman has patiently answered them for us, in some cases walking us through several different steps. In the US, they threw the key to me, told me where my new car could be found on the lot, and sent me on my way. Buh bye bye. I like there are lots of staffers when I go to the Big Box stores. Usually we can find one that can assist us with what we are buying--plus checking on a product's supply--plus assisting us in figuring out how much of something we will need, such as floor tile--plus getting something down for us if it's too high to reach--plus running and getting a cart for us if we decide to buy something once we are well into the store--plus if it needs assembly they will do that for us--plus if its a large item they'll carry it to the checkout counter for us and then carry it to our car for us--plus if the item is too big for our car they'll arrange for delivery at no or little charge, and usually in just a day or two--plus--well you get the picture--that's a lot of pluses. Again, try that in the US.

I've enjoyed every one of them. Currently reading 'The Waiting', which also features Renee Ballard, an LA detective who heads the Cold Case unit. Excellent so far, as always.

'We rent', you say. But, then you say, 'We also have a condo in BKK area she can sell'. So, actually, you rent but you and your wife also own property here. Which, I think, is a good thing because, as you also say, when you pass your wife has the option of selling the condo and getting some 'money from the condo sale'. Same with me. When I pass my spouse will also have property we own here--to use for himself or to sell should he need the money.

I shave every day. I think very few men look good with a scruffy beard or stubble. A well-groomed full beard can look good on taller men but not so much with short men.

Spouse and I saw a new black Atto 3 the other day and we thought it looked really good--especially with the change to the new black C pillar panel from the previous silver.

You seem to have reading comprehension issues--and it's not helped by selectively taking sentences from my post and then deliberately misinterpreting them. Getting 'stung' at The Base only referred to the shift in renters to Airbnb types. As I said in my post, and left out by you, those owners doing the Airbnb rentals were not stung at all. I chose not to do Airbnb rentals so I decided to sell. Also, I didn't say 'many', I said 'some'--again misquoting. And, I also said it wasn't much of a sting since I made a nice profit, as did others who chose to sell. You conveniently left all of that out, as well. So to review--a rather painless sting, soothed by an easy profit. This shift in renters at The Base had no effect on the value of condos at The Base. I was easily able to sell the condo after a year of renting it out. Others did the same and you have presented absolutely no evidence that owners had trouble selling then--or now. I, on the other hand, did post current condo Hipflat prices at The Base for condos similar to what I sold to support what I said. Some additional Hipflat data for The Base: The average selling price is 121,866 baht per sqm. The average selling price in that area is a little less than 80,000 baht a sqm so The Base remains considerably above the average. It is also considerably above the 99,242 sqm price Hipflat gives for Centric Sea, a large condo project built up the street around the same time. At 121,866 a sqm, that would make a 35 sqm high-floor condo similar to what I owned be worth 4,266,010 baht today. Original owners, including myself, paid around 3MB for these 1 bedrooms so, again, not much of a sting. Your next to last and last paragraphs, both somewhat garbled, are too ludicrous to respond to.

You're confusing, perhaps intentionally, situational quality of life with return on investment. One has nothing to do with the other. The Base Central Pattaya remains a good example of real estate that appreciated short-term. You obviously had no rebuttal to its increase in value so you deflected to who are some of its residents, and their effect on other residents. Which has nothing to do with answering the question, did original buyers at The Base make money on their real estate investment? Yes--it would have been very difficult not to. You are correct that some of the original buyers at The Base, including me, got 'stung' when The Base became popular with Airbnb renters. (Obviously, no sting for the owners doing the Airbnbs.) But, once again, getting 'stung' has nothing at all to do with return on investment. Original buyers at The Base, stung or not, made a profit on their real estate purchase. I, for one, would have been happy being stung more than once. When you invest in real estate you need to keep track of it--just as you would a stock you own. In the case of The Base, we bought it as a rental investment for long-term tenants. The first year we had a great corporate renter, paying 25,000 baht a month for the 1-bedroom condo. Towards the end of the lease, he told us he would not be renewing due to the Airbnb renters. Keeping on top of things, and moving fast, we put the condo on the market for sale and sold it quickly, at a nice profit, plus the 275,000 baht in rent we had made. Took away some of the sting. Timing, of course, can be important when you buy or sell. But, in the case of The Base, had we not sold at that time we still would have realized a profit if we sold later. Hipflat today shows similar high-floor 35 sqm condos at The Base for 4.5MB, a bit more than what we sold ours for. While you and I might not like Airbnbs, The Base has actually not suffered with a drop in its condo values. In your post, you grossly misquoted me once again. Please stop. Nowhere in my post did I advise anyone to buy a condo at The Base. Or any other condo or house project. Ever. I did lament that I only bought one as an original buyer--not the same thing, at all. And, I've said many times that renting can be a better choice in Thailand depending on a person's circumstances. I do respond to real estate topics and I do make my opinions known, and will continue to do so if I feel I have something to say. If someone posts information that is incorrect, such as the recent one on US 30-year mortgages, I will respond if I see it and set the record straight. There's a lot of misinformation--and not just with real estate. I like when others do the same with corrections. I also like that I often learn something, and I also try to contribute. Sometimes, I like to provide a different take. For example, I've responded several times when posters have said real estate agents here are useless. That has not been my experience in selling numerous properties here, and I will post with my experiences, usually giving examples. So, readers now have two takes, not just one, on agents in general--useless or useful. Individually, some are useless and some are very useful--which is why we list with multiple agencies, as many as we possibly can. I'm not 'hard selling' anything, and certainly not real estate. I'm not an agent and I have no skin in the game, other than currently owning one house and one condo. Instead, with my posts I have related some of my experiences with real estate, here and in the US, and readers can take what they want from them--or not read them at all. In some cases, I try to use my experiences, both good and bad, to show what has worked for me here in Thailand. And, sometimes what to avoid. Several times, for example, I have written in detail exactly what I do in order to sell a property here, given there is no MLS (Multiple Listing Service) in Thailand. In, I think, one case it was in response to a poster saying he had his property listed with one agent he thought was useless and his property hadn't sold. Perhaps how we do it might also work for someone else--it's there if they want to try it--or not. I've also posted and given tips on the importance of staging a property properly for sale, which can greatly help, especially if your property is one of a number of similar ones also on the market. For credibility when I post my selling method, I might have mentioned that my spouse and I have sold, 21 condos and 3 houses since 2010 in Thailand, all but 3 in Pattaya. (Real estate can appreciate short-term.) Two were sold during the height of covid, and another at its tail-end. Most were sold with an agent finding the buyer--hence, my agent comments in various posts, using our experiences with them. Although I have used the term as shorthand, none were actually straight flips, but all were properties that we lived in, for a time, or rented, before selling. Whatever we buy, we never, ever buy anything we wouldn't live in ourselves--and we did live in them. A good rule, I think. Five were bought strictly as rentals, and then sold when Airbnb changed the rental scene and we decided we no longer wanted to be a landlord renting property here. Again, and as always, readers are free to take or leave whatever information I post. Or, skip over my posts altogether.

Guess I'm forced to respond once again because you have misquoted me left and right by way of purporting to know my 'thinking'. I have never thought, or said, in any post and at any time, either on this thread or any other thread on Thai Visa or Asean Now, that property ALWAYS increases in value. What I said was 'Real estate appreciates.' There are always exceptions and, of course, not every property always increases in value, as you, and everyone else, well knows. Duh. I suppose you have to dot every i and cross every t even if something is common knowledge. But, yes, it has certainly been my experience that, as an investment, real estate appreciates, some short-term and some over time--see my foreclosure example in a previous post for one that took several years after one of the 'troughs' you mention. I also never said you can buy a condo today and sell it next month at a profit--although I'm sure some have done just that at certain times and in certain hot markets. I have not. But, I have sold some condos at a profit having held them for less than a year. That can work if you've gotten a low off-plan price and the condo project has increased in value by the time it opens. See The Base Central Pattaya, as one good example. Wish I had had more than just one of those. That can also work if you buy, say, a View Talay condo shell in foreign quota at a low, unfinished price, take a few months to finish it, and then sell it in less than a year at a profit to a foreigner who wants the work done for him. Years ago, when VT was still the big cheese, I did have more than just one of those. None of this is brain surgery or rocket science--thank goodness. Whether I build a property to either live in or sell, or buy a property to fix up and either live in or sell, has absolutely nothing to do with whether the property will increase or decrease in value. Flipping, or not flipping, does not enter into a property's current or future value. You are also incorrect when you say it takes 'a very long term' for 'property as an investment vehicle' to increase in value. It certainly can take a long time but to state 'for clarity purposes' that that is always the case is wrong. There are very few 'always' in real estate, in my experience. Rather, real estate has tons of variables and does not lend itself to the blanket statements you make.

I've said what I wanted to say, and made the points I wanted to make, in my previous posts. No need to rehash them. I also responded to a clueless, apparently European, poster who made the ridiculous claim that the reason America has 30-year mortgages is because American homes go tumbling to the ground after 30 years. My Florida sister in her 1920s bungalow would get a good laugh out of that. You're welcome to disagree with what I said but what I write comes from the experiences of buying and selling some 30 properties, both condos and houses, here and in the US. I will say that there are a lot of factors that go into real estate and it can often be too time-consuming to try to explain in detail how you can make something work--like selling a property at a profit and then buying another similar property in the exact same area--and make the same or even bigger profit, in a short period of time. It can take more than your one or two sentence sometimes exaggerated observations.

Pattaya doesn't need a 'premium' label--and from reading the article it all sounds like a bunch of blah, blah, blah anyway from officials pretending to work. What Pattaya has more than enough of is private industry stepping up all over town and building projects from small to mega that enhance Pattaya as both a tourist destination and as a great place to live year-round. Private industry, not TAT, builds major tourist development like Terminal 21 and Centre Point Space Resort. Private industry builds big water parks and golf courses. Another new water park opened just this past year. Private industry builds luxury hotels, new car dealerships, shopping malls, movie theaters, and other entertainments. Private industry builds luxury housing projects on the Darkside and mega condo projects by the ocean. Private industry builds all the new retail and restaurants. Pattaya consistently ranks in the world's top 20 of tourist destinations, as it did again in 2024, according to Mastercard. Pattaya was ranked #15, right behind Phuket at #14. According to Mastercard, 9.44 million international tourists chose to visit Pattaya in 2024. Seems Pattaya is doing just fine as a tourist destination without a dubious moniker from some government official.

I think if they could just stop the burning it would help quite a lot--everywhere. I'm on the Darkside of Pattaya and lately we have smelled burning almost every evening--and we sometimes see it during the day. Our new car monitors the PM2.5 levels both outside and inside the car. The other day we could see burning in the distance and as we were driving around the outside PM2.5 levels jumped to around 130 or more at some points--and we weren't really that close to the fire. As we got farther away from the burning area the level dropped to the 50s. The burning is not just agriculture related. There is a huge amount of construction going on and every evening many of the projects burn the construction debris. I observed this first hand with the new project that I live in. The daily evening fires were not big but multiplied by other fires and it all contributes to the bad air.

Absolute nonsense regarding the reason mortgages in the US are for 30 years--starting with the fact that not all mortgages in the US are even for 30 years. In 1972, when my Dad retired and we moved back to the US from Okinawa, he and my Mom wanted to buy a house. Because of his age--55--the bank would only give him a 20-year mortgage. Had nothing to do with how long a house would supposedly last. The house my parents bought, by the way, is still going strong. You can get mortgages in the US for 15 years, 20 years, 30 years, and, even some 40-year mortgages are available. The length of the mortgage has nothing to do with the house, itself. Rather, it's usually the combination of the buyer's finances and how many years they want to be paying off a mortgage.

While you are living in a property you own, if it is appreciating, you are realizing an eventual profit on your original investment, even if you have not yet sold it. So, you are making money for yourself keeping a roof over your head, even if you haven't cashed in yet. I've owned about 30 properties, both here and in the US, and every one of them increased in value--the last US one I mentioned took a couple of years. Other than making them attractive, I didn't do anything special. Real estate appreciates. While I was living in each of them, I was earning money as they appreciated, rather than a landlord earning money if I rented, instead. When you sell, you aren't necessarily always buying back into the 'same market'. In some cases, people are making a change to a different city, state, or country. But, in any case, buying back into the same market has not been a problem for me--either in the US or here.

No reason you can't do real estate and stocks--especially since, unless you like living in the open air, one needs to keep a roof over one's head anyway. Might as well make some money while you're sheltering yourself.

Yes, of course, if you sell a stock, or a property, that has dipped below the price you paid for it, you will incur a loss. Obviously, if you don't need the money, don't sell in a dip. As I showed in the examples I used in my earlier post, if you can wait, they'll likely recover. The very last condo I bought in the US was a foreclosure that I purchased in 2009, after I sold the condo I mentioned in my earlier post. I paid $170,000 and I thought I had gotten a bargain. Little did I know, the real estate dip was still dipping, and the condo's value dropped to $160,000 in 2010. Had I sold then, I would have lost money. Meanwhile, I had made the decision to move to Thailand in June 2010. So, instead of selling at a loss, I rented the condo instead, with my brother-in-law managing it for me. Eventually, the real estate market improved and I sold the condo at a profit several years later. That same condo has continued to appreciate--as most real estate does--and Zillow tells me it is now worth $277, 500.