jing jing

I'm going with common sense, my 12 years of residence in various regions of Thailand, and the fact that despite dozens of late nights on the grind out on WS, I've never been remotely threatened - let alone assaulted for absolutely no reason - by Thai people. This Russian chap provoked the attack, no doubt in my mind.

A smile and polite "no thanks" will never earn you a beat down in the Kingdom, but make no mistake, if you think you can insult a Thai and walk away like nothing happened, you're in for a rude awakening -- instant karma gonna get ya.

OK, your view that the evidence was flimsy, I believe it to be solid and irrefutable.

Either you have A) no knowledge of the RTP's history vis-a-vis fabricating evidence, B - no understanding of what irrefutable DNA evidence looks like, C) are just here to wind us up, or D) all of the above.

I choose D. So come on Lucky, which is it then?

All of you will be unbelievable but There's no smoke without fire.

Edited to add picture.

Hmmm... photoshop?

It really does seem rather paranoiac to imagine that these events, so far removed from anything remotely of interest to the democratic dictator in the desert, would be worth even 100 baht for him to finance and organize?

Didn't the BIB - ever his faithful lapdogs - get exactly what they wanted here? How would their faction benefit by rocking the boat?

I suppose that when a ruling clique is uncertain of whether or not they actually have widespread public support, it's easy to imagine the bogeyman around every corner.

The confidence that all will end well and the Burmese handed over is at best hopeful.

I would have more faith in the possibility that will both be found hung ( suicide ) with a note begging for forgiveness for their terrible crimes .

And their bodies cremated before autopsy or family or human rights groups examine them.

Much the same as recent opponents who died in prison recently had their bodies cremated quickly.

Some people think this is all just wink and nudge Asian politics being played out and it's all good.?

Nah , it's actually very corrupt stuff.

The irony is it will do more harm to them than good. ( government)

People fear being murdered and going to military run countries , but sometimes tolerate risks.

However state run executions of innocents and letting the real killers free, is getting closer to the limits of excluding that country from selection next year.

I have .

Hope many others will too.

That'd be me final comment, as I prefer to avoid the obligatory red/yellow pissing matches.

• I do not believe these two guys will be executed. They will be handed over to Myanmar as a show of benevolence by the Thai Government. Thailand makes Karma, the guys are freed, the case is put to rest. All is well that ends well. Western sense of justice isn't part of the equation. Some important person(s) get away with murder, happens often all over the world.

Can you tell me where else in the world the scenario you outline occurs?

O.J. Simpson comes quickly to mind, but only because that case received international publicity.

Thaksin? He's run away from Thai justice, attempted to incite civil war in the country to promote his own vested interests, been stripped of his Thai passport... what's left?

By his own actions, in fact, he is the perfect bogeyman.

"Are you untouchable?"

I'd like to think so

You know how it works, time to move out if you're offended by Thai justice

Posting your disgust on a forum wont change the future.

Move to Colombia or somewhere

I do know how it works, and am well prepared to deal with it.

Personally I am more disgusted by those self-styled pundits who seem to have no comprehension of how it works, yet are prepared to enthusiastically endorse the execution of likely scapegoats.

Yes I agree execution of likely scapegoats is wrong.

One thing I would like to ask though is, how would you deal with it if it was you on the end of the firing line so to speak?

Once an individual who does not have "untouchable" status becomes caught up in the legal system here they are at the mercy of the powers that be. At the very least, one should expect to be bled dry financially. Alternatively, one may come to terms with what is meant by, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

Realistically, it is highly unlikely that the BIB would select a relatively affluent westerner to pin a murder rap on, when there are so many easier targets available. Drug or other vice-related offenses, well... that's a different story.

You know how it works, time to move out if you're offended by Thai justice

Posting your disgust on a forum wont change the future.

Move to Colombia or somewhere

Personally I am more disgusted by those self-styled pundits who seem to have no comprehension of how it works, yet are prepared to enthusiastically endorse the execution of likely scapegoats.

One of the central characteristics of Thainess is a culturally ingrained avoidance of introspection; one result of this is the inability of many Thais to see themselves as others see them.

The only way they ever become aware of the absurdity of their position is when there is a public backlash, thus threatening them with a loss of face.

In order to save face, they must find a bogeyman, preferably a non-Thai, to take the blame for creating the unpleasant situation in the first place.

Thai culture boiled down to it's essence. Lewd, loud, utterly moronic and devoid of artistry.

I would imagine that this "cell mate" is now a free and wealthier man!

I am sorry but the phone story just sums up this whole case....farsical.

The more I hear about the trial the more convincing the argument that we are witnessing one of the most blatant and shameful set ups in recent living memory.

The cell mate was indeed released early December as he had finished his sentence.

What a surprise, and the other witness the room mate...was this the guy who was arrested at the same time as the 2 accused? The same guy who said the 2 accused were tucked up in bed and looking very normal in the hours after the murders?

They admitted to being on the beach at 2 am and again at 4am of course it is much more likely they were there the whole time. and never went home for a 2 hour power nap.

Truly, have you no common sense, or any sense at all for that matter? To believe the RTP narrative in its entirety, as it seems you do, suggests not.

Are you aware that Khun Praween, the senior RTP investigator brought in to "clean up" the loose ends in this case is now a fugitive - err, refugee - in Australia, claiming that dark forces higher up in the RTP and military are trying to kill him?

Ok, here is my take on the overall trajectory of events since the murders and initial discovery of the bodies:

Cops on the scene unable to resist posting grisly, sexually explicit photos of the victims on FB

First glimpse of the guiding principle used in identifying the "true" perpetrators of this crime: "a Thai person would never do something like this"

Initially, every attempt is made to find a "foreigner" suspect to arrest, but worldwide media attention makes this more difficult than usual, and those early "likely suspects" prove too unlikely even by RTP standards.

One of the RTP's more competent senior investigators, Colonel Panya Mamen, is given the unenviable task of solving this crime in a manner acceptable to an international audience.

Despite the rapid progress he is able to make in tracking down the perpetrators, whose identities are not a secret for very long, the investigation hits an insurmountable roadblock when it becomes evident who their families are and how far up the food chain their connections really go.

Plan B not having panned out, it's back to Plan A: find some Burmese laborers who were somewhere in the vicinity sometime that night. No need to look very far; helpful Uncle Mon knows a couple of his Burmese employees were around the bar just before the murders - maybe they could take the fall?

The deal is done, Thai style - arrangements are made by power brokers behind closed doors, the details of which may be speculated about forever but will never actually be known. At this point the "investigation" is over and the result of the "trial" is already a foregone conclusion.

Cheer up folks, because here's the good part: the door has been left open for face to be saved and still give the Burmese scapegoats a reprieve. Thai authorities have said all along, and are again reminding us, that the process is not over - there will be appeals.

Mark my words, there may yet be a measure of mercy shown - albeit exclusively as a result of the intense international backlash against the scapegoating of the Burmese.

probably all part of the plan, then we get to hear later how generous and kind someone is. total bs of course.

Have you ever noticed how incredibly rare it is in Thailand that a "not guilty" verdict is rendered in the initial trial phase? Such a result would imply that the police and prosecutors had not done their jobs properly, thus causing an unacceptable loss of face.

This is simply not done here, particularly if the police or prosecutors involved are powerful enough to inflict dire consequences upon any lawyer or defense team who dares question the veracity of officialdom too strongly.

After all, the defense lawyers are Thai and hope to have good future prospects to continue practicing law in Thailand - not to mention their future prospects for continuing to be alive if they happen to implicate the wrong people.

As the case moves up through the appeals process, those judges who will have the discretion to overturn the original verdict are a step removed from the local sphere of influence which determined the initial results.

The further up the legal system a case goes, the less local influence can be wielded to sway the outcome. This is how "checks and balances" are expected to be implemented, Thai-style.

To the 15 months incognito guy: My apologies -- didn't recognize you. Must be the new haircut.

To the spooky stalker guy: Perhaps he just now got fed up seeing the tripe you regularly attempt passing off as pithy responses or sage little nuggets of wisdom, and finally decided to respond. Up to him.

Frankly, he wouldn't be the only one.

Pity -- I mean pithy.

Douche -- I mean touche.

This ain't your show.

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Zaw Lin/Wai Phyo held under tight security/challenging situation. Shackled/detained in cell, both restraint measures applied 24 hours a day.

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Understand shackles four months &24/7 cell detention one month. Guys even eat food in the cell. 61 high security prisoners in cell at night

That's more than the poor victims have.

And your point is what, exactly?

Perhaps a more relevant comparison would be: in what circumstances do Messrs. Warot and Montriwat currently find themselves relative to that of the victims of this horrendous crime?

That stone cold face of Prawit, and the evil smile of the police officer behind him, speaks volumes...

More than slightly foreboding, no question about that. These protests are just the sort of thing that will cause Thai officialdom to dig their heels in, and end up producing the exact opposite of the desired result.

I learned long ago in dealing with Thai bureaucracy that direct confrontation never, ever works -- too much potential loss of face.

Polite acknowledgement of their awesome power and infinite wisdom, accompanied by a smile and a high wai is a good place to start, followed by an end run with a large envelope tucked discreetly under your jacket may achieve the desired result.

Don't know if they were tortured.

The dna was certainly collected poorly.

The dna was presented badly in court by both the prosecutor and the defense.

But no getting around they had David's phone. They were there.

And for now are in the correct place.

Just to make it simple, that whole farce was RIGGED from the beginning to the end............

Incorrect ! Not rigged from the beginning as the first investigating officer found and declared who the real murders were, namely brother of Village headman, owner of AC bar, MON and head mans son. Proved, so he said by CCTV. However this person Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen , was quickly replaced by another. Then the RIGGING began.

just to avoid giving the trolls another chance to nag around:

It seems that Panya Mamen's transfer at that date was planned long before this case.

So it was just good fortune for the criminals to replace him by another one who "knew how to behave."

Good fortune, indeed.

And I suppose it is just coincidence that his replacement, Khun Somyot, after expeditiously "solving" this despicable crime and confirming the earlier official declaration that "no Thai person could ever do such a thing," found himself quickly promoted again - all the way to the very top of the RTP?

So, RTP- fanboys: you suggest, that there is evidence, that we haven't seen or heard about?!

Evidence, only some inner circle members (and the Miller- family) know about?!

Why exactly, would that be so?

Even the judge, who handed down the judgement said, that the case is flawed, but the DNA- evidence was the most compelling part (which means, in my reading: even that was flawed!).

So we have seen all the failures and fumbles, all the mistakes, all the "I don't know" and "it is used up".

We have seen the case been sent back a total of 3 times and we all have heard all the questions and all the doubts!

All that has been made public...but the ONE "evidence", that links the B2 to the crime without any doubt and so clear, that a death -sentence has been spoken...THAT part of evidence, is the only thing, that has been kept a secret?!

On what planet does that make ANY sense?

If the semen found inside Hannah's body was that of the B2 then that trumps EVERYTHING else. Nothing else matters, unless you think that they raped Hannah and then somebody else murdered them, which wouldn't actually make that much sense!!

Despite the argument put forth by some defenders of the Burmese that the presence of their semen on the victim's body does not prove murder, I tend to believe that it would go a long way towards convincing most reasonable folks of their guilt. The problem is that, as many have already pointed out, there has been no CREDIBLE presentation by the prosecutors of ANY evidence,

other than what amounts to a weaker version of "the dog ate my homework" by the RTP.

It was hardly what any self respecting court anywhere in the world could call "rock-solid DNA evidence."

Don't know if they were tortured.

The dna was certainly collected poorly.

The dna was presented badly in court by both the prosecutor and the defense.

But no getting around they had David's phone. They were there.

And for now are in the correct place.

Just to make it simple, that whole farce was RIGGED from the beginning to the end............

Incorrect ! Not rigged from the beginning as the first investigating officer found and declared who the real murders were, namely brother of Village headman, owner of AC bar, MON and head mans son. Proved, so he said by CCTV. However this person Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen , was quickly replaced by another. Then the RIGGING began.

It is impossible for any of us, Ms. greenchair included, to be certain of who placed which phone in what location. It is entirely possible that, as part of the setup, the police placed a phone - found by or perhaps given to them previously - behind the scapegoats' dwelling. That would be quite likely to happen under the circumstances; straight out of the Evidence Planting for Dummies book, actually.

Whatever the Burmese are reported to have said under interrogation can be taken with a massive boulder of salt - no videotape of the interview, no credible witnesses present, just the word of those paragons of honesty and incorruptibility - you guessed it, the RTP.

Some of the posts I've seen from the Flat Earth acolytes are not worth dignifying with a response. It's fairly obvious who the pure wind up merchants are versus those who have a reasoned opinion to express.

Ok, here is my take on the overall trajectory of events since the murders and initial discovery of the bodies:

Cops on the scene unable to resist posting grisly, sexually explicit photos of the victims on FB

First glimpse of the guiding principle used in identifying the "true" perpetrators of this crime: "a Thai person would never do something like this"

Initially, every attempt is made to find a "foreigner" suspect to arrest, but worldwide media attention makes this more difficult than usual, and those early "likely suspects" prove too unlikely even by RTP standards.

One of the RTP's more competent senior investigators, Colonel Panya Mamen, is given the unenviable task of solving this crime in a manner acceptable to an international audience.

Despite the rapid progress he is able to make in tracking down the perpetrators, whose identities are not a secret for very long, the investigation hits an insurmountable roadblock when it becomes evident who their families are and how far up the food chain their connections really go.

Plan B not having panned out, it's back to Plan A: find some Burmese laborers who were somewhere in the vicinity sometime that night. No need to look very far; helpful Uncle Mon knows a couple of his Burmese employees were around the bar just before the murders - maybe they could take the fall?

The deal is done, Thai style - arrangements are made by power brokers behind closed doors, the details of which may be speculated about forever but will never actually be known. At this point the "investigation" is over and the result of the "trial" is already a foregone conclusion.

Cheer up folks, because here's the good part: the door has been left open for face to be saved and still give the Burmese scapegoats a reprieve. Thai authorities have said all along, and are again reminding us, that the process is not over - there will be appeals.

Mark my words, there may yet be a measure of mercy shown - albeit exclusively as a result of the intense international backlash against the scapegoating of the Burmese.

This dude either has a fabulous sense of humor, or.... not. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but....

Gotta laugh at the Thai reply. Even a death sentence handed down in one of the longest, most heavily covered internationally murder trials in recent history is simply presented as a starting position in a negotiation.

So now you have:-

the interests of the nation

the interests of justice

the interests of the wealthy ruling clique

the interests of the victims' families

the interests of the convicted defendants

So far the third set of interests has clearly triumphed at the expense of the others.

One could safely say that it is the one constant which holds true in all cases.

Don't be obtuse. If you have not yet read the Witheridge family's statement, please do so, then compare and contrast the wording of it with that of the Millers'.

If you are unable to detect the profound difference between the two families' reactions to this ill-conceived verdict, then that would go a long way toward clarifying how you are able to defend it.

I did read the statement, as I made clear in my previous post already, but I only read what is written and don't make insinuations about the mind of people I don't know.

The difference I saw was that the Miller family clearly stated they were happy with the verdict, while the Witheridge family said they would evaluate the verdict and make a statement later, but clearly there was no mention if they agreed or not.

I think with the last line of your post you perfectly described yourself, not me.

The subtleties of this entire tragic episode apparently escape those who would opine in favor of the prosecution and the verdict rendered.