aussiestyle1983

Astonishing to read the replies above either accepting the fake degree position with a 'mai pen rai, TIT' attitude, or even going so far as to say 'if the classes were ok, then theres nothing wrong.' Unbelievable.

If you dicovered that your financial advisor/Doctor was working with false credentials would the reaction and reasoning be the same?

Children, and my daughter in particular (obviously!) are our future, like the cliche says. As they spend more time in school than with their parents, then we are entrusting the better part of their education to those teachers. We are basically entrusting their future lives to those same teachers to some degree. I know that i will only entrust the education of my daughter to truly qualified and gifted teachers. Indeed, she goes to a cheaper school here in Bangkok because after grilling the teachers, and observing classes from the exterior of the classroom i found the standard of teaching to be much greater than the very beautiful (facility wise) and better equipped school that is 100m from our home.

Bottom line here is that our kids are special, and i want only special (read qualified in educational practices, enthusiastic, honest and caring) people to be around me daughter. Im sure other parents feel the same.

So, for those guys posting above (maybe the fake qualification topic hit a nerve??) i think that might outline the OP's feelings somewhat for you.

For other parents concerned, i suggest you do the same as i and subtly grill your kids teachers. They are freely available whenever you need to meet them, and getting into personal conversation after/while discussing your kids latest homework can reveal much.

Thanks for the support. I, by chance, bumped into one of the young teachers at the school. He was polite and obviously reasonably educated; he mentioned in passing his time at university. I mentioned the fate of his former colleague and he said one of the other teachers was an obvious fraudster; 58 and a retired lorry driver . In the UK only around 5% of his (and my) generation went to university so to claim to have attained a degree and pursued career as a bloody trucker is obsurd! I intend to persue this matter. All the Dads out there will understand where I am coming from.

Rember that if this guy is the criminal you're making him out to be you could be attacked in a form or revenge or even killed! You don't relly know this guy or even the full story (you never will know the full story being a farang yourself) so your plan might backfire. Rather than being a sticky beak, I'd just re-locate your kid to a different school. The school could have told him to get false certificates and you would and will never know this (unless you believe in Santa Calause and think a Thai would tell you.) I for one would rather have my kid educated by one teacher with fake credentials than in a dodgy school where most likely many of the kids teachers would end up being fakes. You are in Thailand, not your home country, so you have to realise the differences and understand that this is a common thing. If every parent did what you are doing there would not be half of the English teachers in Thailand today cause most of the degreed teachers are teaching in other countries, leaving the sexpats, people with Thai family and the few who love Thaialnd to teach in Thailand. Anyway, I hope your plan backfires and please let us know if it does (If you're still alive to do so ).

Well done. You've made the right decision.

Hopefully your conversation to the parents about why you quit will get around and make her lose more face, maybe even her job...................

EVA air, new 777. Flew BKK LAX via the hub. New seats are so un-comfortable I would not fly them again just because of the seats. For some reason, Emirates can fit 10 across seating into the same 777 that EVA only fit 9 across seating in and still make it more comfortable?

dear susanstar,

it would appear that you have not spent long enough here to "get it"

this is not a flame, your thoughts are quite common among teachers in their first years.

put simply, you cannot apply western methods to Thai employment situations.

why?

1. the Thai employee is expected to do what they are told, obey everything and never complain.

this now applies to you as an employee.

2. its a money making business that's all. Its not about education or job satisfaction or students' improvement.

you are a cog that can be replaced easily if you make noise.

3. nothing you do is ever appreciated.

4. consequently you should apply the same attitudes in reverse.

do as little as possible.

slack off.

cheat.

steal others lesson plans.

suck up to the boss to enable more slacking off.

do not ever actually attempt to do your job well.

take it wasy.

and don't forget to slack off.

after all the real hours you should work for your miserable 35K are about 10 per week.

Congratulations! You hit the nail on the head.

Another thing admin need to realise is that quite a few teachers only come to LOS to gain experience ESL teaching before moving on to a better land. The motivated people who want a career in ESL teaching will not settle to work in a country where the pay is a lot less than in other countries, where you have to be an ass kisser or brownnoser to fit into the culture, etc. As long as admin continue treating teachers like crap and think that teachers have no other options, teachers will continue to leave, not only because they can, but also because its better for their career if they move on to a more stable place with more common sense and a brighter future.

If you are happy to not have an opinion on the TOPIC, then so be it.

I do have an opinion, and I stated it: I think you're overreacting. The teachers who have legitimate degrees and credentials will be part of the system without many obstacles, and the ones who do not will have to know people who can get around the system. It's as simple as that. They like fancy bits of paper.

What about false fancy bits of paper?

How so?

I don't work in LOS anymore and don't plan to for a long time if ever again, so this won't make a difference to me but I do have the right to free speach whether or not you like it so I will use that right to state my opinion regardless. I just feel sorry for all the good teachers who put in the hard work and are more than capable of teaching that get pushed around by new laws and regulations every time someone at the MOE has a bad nights sleep or thinks of a new idea. If you are happy to not have an opinion on the TOPIC, then so be it.

If what Xangsamhua said is correct and this refers to academics only, thus meaning school teachers would still need degrees and lenghty paper trails regardless of their capability and experience while professors and other academics can just get by on their performance and capability, then the MOE = Hypocritical, two faced, double standardised organisation full of un-educated Thais who don't have enough common snese to make a decision to save their own life.

But then again, it did mention "teachers" as well in the article so perhaps this could apply to everyone working in the teaching or academia profession in Thailand.

I await the flames from the brownnosers................

Hey aussiestyle,

this isn't a flame, but I respectfully disagree. MOE might have its problems, but the different treatment of teachers vs. university professors/academics is hardly specific to Thailand.

Pretty much everywhere in North America, you have to be certified as a teacher to teach at a high school/grade school, but if I have a Ph.D. in mathematics, I can be a university professor in mathematics without any teaching qualifications or training whatsoever. Academics are mostly hired on the basis of their research, how much prestige + money they can generate for the university; how good they are at teaching undergraduate students has very little to do with it.

I think you missed the point. Regardless of "weather the different treatment of teachers vs. university professors/academics is hardly specific to Thailand." or not this thread is specific to Thailand and MOST people using the thaivisa.com teaching forum either work as teachers in Thailand or have some sort of interest in Thailand or teaching in Thailand, so what happens in other countries is irrelevant.

I personally wouldn't be a teacher in a western country like the ones you mentioned, the pay is to low and the work loads are too much (plus all the legal BS that you can get you ass sued for anything these days) so I couldn't careless about the treatment of teachers academic standards in other countries.

Thailand is a different country, with a different culture and is not as stable and developed as the other countries you are comparing it to in the first place. There is a shortage of qualified teachers in Thailand and a shortage of English teachers period in Thailand; the nations fluency or should I say, anti-fluency in English should be enough to proove this. There is also proably more illegal teachers working in Thailand that in many other countries.

If the MOE were to adjust the requirements and academic standards of all teachers and academics, it could have a positive affect. More capable teachers could be employed based on their capability and experience rather than being judged on the fact that they do not have an irrelevant degree in shoe lace making. There would be less illegal teachers because more teachers would be able to become legal just by proving they can teach.

I'm not saying that anyone with two arms and two legs should be able to qualify to become legal here (all though that is all that's needed to land a job) I'm just saying Thailand needs to make more realistic standards. The level the academics have to teach is a lot higher than teachers teaching kindergarten and prathom, so if anyone should need a degree to teach it should be thr academics and professors.

All I can see hapening as a result of this is that there will still be a shortage and large number of illegal teachers teaching for peanuts just to teach KG and high school students but more and more professors will be able to get jobs (including the sex tourist ones) just based on how well they deliver their work. We all know that grades can not accuratly determine how well people teach here because most of the are made up or adjusted to begin with.

The MOE needs to adjust the academic standing requirements for all teachers, reagrdless of their title and what they teach, or the countries education system will continue in the dirrection it's been heading over the last 12 months, down.

If what Xangsamhua said is correct and this refers to academics only, thus meaning school teachers would still need degrees and lenghty paper trails regardless of their capability and experience while professors and other academics can just get by on their performance and capability, then the MOE = Hypocritical, two faced, double standardised organisation full of un-educated Thais who don't have enough common snese to make a decision to save their own life.

But then again, it did mention "teachers" as well in the article so perhaps this could apply to everyone working in the teaching or academia profession in Thailand.

I await the flames from the brownnosers................

Use the "relative is very ill" story and don't even think twice about it... it's nearly standard procedure for quitting nicely here.

If your boss is a Thai I'm sure they would fully understand and co-operate with you if you used the "my buffalo is sick" line rather than the "my mother is sick" line. It seems that buffalos are always sick in Thailand and I think this might touch the soul of your boss. Im sure you would get your degree returned on the spot and possibly even a return air ticket to your home country.

It also might work in your favor if you're more original for example, if you're from Australia tell you boss your family's kangaroo is ill or if you're from New Zealand tell you boss the family's sheep has developed a headache and you heed to get home right away to give it some parra.

I agree, make a lot of noise and see what happens if it is a genuine relationship. But the law is the law and his previous attempts that have failed might also be held against him anyway...............................

A teacher at my daughters rural school has been caught with fake qualifications. He has been given two weeks to leave the country. However I am worried that other teachers at the school are working illegally and have not been though any of the checks now demanded by the Thai government. What can a concerned step father do to ensure no more criminal teachers find work at my daughters school? I have met with the Kru Yai to discuss this issue beofre but she seemed not to understand the laws and regulations that apply to foreign teachers.

Before I begin my reply I will say that I dont really believe the OP. It sounds a bit far fetched to me. Possible, but unlikely to have happened. Anyhow, that said a rural teacher probabaly didnt need to have a degree to work at the school especially if it was a govenment school. The fact that he submitted a fake degree doesnt mean he was a criminal before hand. How do you know the school didnt encourage him to do this? Of course that doesnt mean his actions were right, as he knows the law im sure, but they may have asked him to submit it. And finally if you are REALLY worried about your daughters education, as you say you are, then you wouldnt have her educated in a Thai school, would you now? I'm sure there are far worse things going on at the school than a native speaker using a fake degree. Get real and open your eyes. Most of the Thai teachers at her school will have degrees that are worth as much as his fake one. As for the Thai teachers that are teaching your daughter English well i'm sure they are pretty useless too. Again his fake would be worth more than theirs. The questions you should be asking are, was he doing a good job? Were the students happy? etc etc. The need for a degree to teach in rural Thailand is complete doodoo. Infact, why anybody would need a degree to teach conversation is beyond me. Just a reasonable amount of common sense and a Tefl would suffice but thats be done to death. Most westerners wishing to teach have atleast that. As for the Thai teachers and common sense well thats another story of course! Concerned parent? Your concerns seem to be mis directed IMHO. But good luck with your daughters education. You probably doing a better job than the school.

Very good post.

Here are a few questions for the OP:

Was the teacher REALLY caught with fake qualifications or were the Thais involved exagerating?

How many other foriegn teachers at that school have fake qualifications (including the ones you might no know about)?

How many Thai teachers at that school have fake qualifications (you will never know)?

Is this teacher a good teacher who just does not have a degree, or is he a reall scum bag?

Would you rather have your kid being taught English by a farang with fake qualifications or a Thai with fake qualifications?

Would you rather have your kid being taught English by a farang with fake qualifications or by a hopeless Thai teacher with real qualifications?

You either need to take your kid out of this school and put your hand into your back pocket and pay high school fees for your kid to be taught by qualified teachers in an Intl school or just mind your own business and accept the fact that there is a shortage or english teachers and that you are the one who enrolled you kid in a school that can't afford to hire real, qualified teachers. Keep in mind it could have been the school that told this teacher to use fake qualifications and the school is just blaming the teacher now because that is how it works in Thailand. So do you want your kid to go to a school with no ethical standards as well?

I hope for your sake you don't have to stupe to the level of your boss, but I was in a similar situation in the past and this is how I handeled it.

My school refused to give me back some of my teaching aids that I had bought elsewhere when I asked where they were. I said they were mine anyway and I needed to use them for teaching at my other job on the wekend. They said that they were at another campus but I knew this was <deleted> because another teacher was using them the day before. Anyway, the refuesed to give them back to me so I collected all 440 of my students workbooks and took them to a friends house in the afternoon (this was a few days before the books were suppose to be returned to the patents) The next day when I asked for my teaching aids back and they said no, I told them I would not return the students workbooks. The school said I could not take them from the school bewcause they would stop me but I told them it was too late, I allready took them home to finish marking them a few days ago. Within 10 mins, my class was interupted and I was taken to my office where all my teaching aids were sitting on my desk. My boss said sorry. i said "That was quick, I thought they were at another campus" I got no reply to that but they knew I caught them out lying. They just told me that they didn't want me to take my teaching aids because they thought I would not return. I just said they were mine and I could do what I want with them and they should just be greatful I even left them at the school for other teachers to use.

Anyway, you might have to play dirty. As others have said, if you get the police or others involved they may not help you anyway or the school might make it harder for you. Just blackmail them the same way they have blackmailed you and see how they handle it. I took the students books home because I knew the parents would stir up shit if their kids didn't get the special little workbooks back. It's not good to do this, but like someone else said, eat or be eaten. You can play dirty because your school had done the dirty on you.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, UOW accepted me with evidence of my ESL teaching experience. I only wanted to get the degree to use in LOS, I would never teach anything in Australia. teaching in Australia is one of the most under paid and worst jobs I could think of. Respect to all teachers in Australia, you deserve more money (including teachers in the USA, Uk and everyelse wheere they are underpaid)

I am now studying a BA online, but it is not related to teaching or education (because the open uni does not have any BEd or teaching degrees available) Since Thailand will accept any degree, I'll do a degree in a field that I can use to get a job in australia and then hopefully it can still be used to get a job legally in thailand if I ever return. I then still plan to do the TEFL degree, but if I finish the bachelors first, I can go straight into an MED (UOW) without the need for the grad cert first, because really, without a bachelors or a masters, the grad cert is useless on its own.

So my plan, next 4 years, complete a BA in any field from Open Uni Australia. It will at least be a Bachelor of Arts so that will help, but the major just won't be in education or teaching. This will then make me able to get a work permit.

Following 2 years, do the MEd in (TESOL) via distance through UOW. If thailand raise their requirements to need an education related degree or a masters degree, I will still be covered.

So I will allow the next 6 years to complete BA and MEd (TESOL) for a total cost of under $25,000 (not including books) Than is a lot less than 1 mill THB and is not a whole lot more than it would cost me to do it in Thailand. But my degrees will be from Macquaire and UOW which are all a lot better than the Thai universities and would look better if I planned to teach in another country.

Thats all for now. I have to get back to writing my first essay

Uli can the RKH cert be run out to MAT or MEd?

Typically a cert like this is worth about 1/3 of a degree so if its legit, is there or least plans of it working into full qualification?

The credits earned form the Graduate Diploma courses can be transferred to the M.Ed. program at IIS. The M.Ed. needs completion of 36 credits, meaning the diploma makes 2/3.

There is a transfer fee of 1,500 Baht per credit. The 24 credits of the diploma make about 52,000 Baht, the M.Ed. program makes (complete) 250,000 Baht. Even with the transfer fee, still a good bargain.

If you would prefer to get the diploma conducted in Mandarin, you are welcome as well. Just a few days ago I got the news that this diploma is offered in our Chinese program as well (certainly, the Faculty of Education offers it in Thai as well, for as little as 27,000 Baht).

Uli

I'd rather pay $8,000 AUD for a MEd from an Australian University, you can specialise in many areas, including TESOL, physical education, etc. Even if the AUD goes back up to 30 THB per $1 AUD, then the MEd from Australia would only cost about 240,000 THB. I'm sure a MEd from an Aiustralian Uni would go a lot further in the Education or the TEFL world than one from a Thai Uni. This MEd can be studdied externally through distance education mode and the Uni that does this is rated number 1 in Australia for teaching performance. I just think that price is a bit high to pay for a Thai degree that would carry very little weight in other countries. $8,000 AUD is the fee for Australian citizens, if you're not an Aussie you would pay about double making it praobly mot so worth it for you if you only want it to teach in LOS, but just compairing the degree from RK in not that cheap for what its worth.

Not sure that you'd get a Masters now for AU$8000. USQ MEd units run out at AU$1350 now and there are 8 of them, totalling $10,800. USQ is one of the cheaper unis in Oz, though they have a very good reputation for online and distance mode.

Have a look at what UOW has to offer.

Am I missing something?

After reading this thread a couple of times I am at a loss to understand why Ram or the Thai government would target people already holding a Bachelors degree for improvement. Although I think an educational advancement opportunity is generally a great idea, what problem is solved or addressed by this move?

Ramkhamhaeng University International Program:

Graduate Diploma in Teaching Profession

(English Program and Chinese Program)

Admission Requirements

1. Applicants must hold a Bachelor degree or higher in any field from an accredited university.

2. Successfully pass the IIS English Test. (For exemptions from passing the IIS English Test, please see Admission Requirements.)

3. Successfully pass the interview at your learning centre.

4. Submit a complete application (including payment of the Application Fee).

I would think that since the current requirement is a Bachelors degree to get a work permit this effort will only help a small segment of the current / future teachers who choose to rise to a Masters degree. So unless the bar is being raised once again to need a Masters degree to teach, what real impact is had?

And if that is the case then Thailand is in deep trouble as the salary does not justify this. Many would argue that the current salary levels don't beg for the Bachelors degree they are requiring now compared to other Asian countries.

A note on the perception of the quality of any kind of paper from Thai universities. Ram credits are not transferable to other universities inside Thailand ( my understanding from Thai friends ) until each degree is completed. So having said that their real value is a good question.

Ultimately how one feels about the value of Thai paper is of no consequence. What is important is to plan ahead, know where you plan to apply this paper and see if it will be accepted. Ram should be making moves to get this program endorsed by brother / sister international educational partners to add legitimacy and prove it's value.

I am with aussiestyle and others who would think a more proven external distance educational institution, although arguably more expensive, would offer more application and flexibility outside of the kingdom. And as recent events have shown all of us things here can change rapidly, a gross understatement.

In the end I fail to see how this program addresses the teacher shortage. I could understand if the program were bottom up offering people with no degree and the ambition to work and live in Thailand an educational track.

I am not an education expert. I am watching a few different schools try different programs, many are quite innovative to mitigate the problems caused by recent MOE and Labor Ministry decisions. I am just another guy following this thread with interest.

MPL

You are spot on. That would not solve the problem for those without bachelor degrees in the first palce.

The MOE should open their own teacher training course, practical combined with theory. Eventually after fullfilling the requirements, you would be issued with some kind of diploma and a Thai teaching certificate or whatever. The MOE could charge a fee for the course and they would also be able to make money. I think this would be of greater benifit to teachers and students, as the teachers would be being trained how how to teach Thais etc.

canda, you are more than qualified to teach and would have no problem getting a job. Given your experience and the fact that your teqaching qualification is recognised and was used in the country you obtained it in to legally work as a teacher (which you did for 24 years) should be enough for you to get legal as well.

If the MOE would not recognise you qualification (which enables you to become a qualified teacher in Australia) I would not even bother persuing the issue to teach in Thailand. As I said before, you will get a job, easily, but if you have to work illegally because the MOE won't recognise your qualifications, then it would be a problem for you.

Countries like the USA and many first world nations recognise these teaching qualifications because they realise that in Australia, the Dip in Teaching from the ATC is one of the ways to becoming a teacher in Australia. If the MOE won't recognise it and realise you obtained that qualification a long time ago because that was the thing you had to do in your country, I'd take your experience else where, Thailand does not deserve teachers like you if they want to play hard ball. They would rather teachers with bachelor degrees in engineering, shoe making, gambeling, drinking and other non teaching related fields to be teachers (they proably worry that real qualified would teachers make their perfect and highly qualified Thai teachers look like shit)

As for Scott, the only reason the MOE has informed your school that all teachers must have a BA to get legal is because your school chain is in their bad books. It is well known that there are many dodgy branches that hire un-qualified alcoholoics and so on so just because you school has been clamped down on by the MOE does not mean that all schools or other schools in your chain have the same requirements. I worked for one of the better, if not the best school is your chain of schools and was legal without a degree, so it just sounds like your school is in the shits. And, with all due respect, it sounds like your attitude is similar to the attitudes of the upper management of you school, they know-it-all but are always wrong

I was legal for the last 18 months without having any degree. My school just submitted a lot of my vocational certificates and a Diploma in TEFL and that was it.

I have now started studying through the open universities ( and believe me, this is no walk in the park or easy degree, those considering doing it just to get a degree will get a big wake up call with the ammount of work involved ) to work towards a BA to use when my wife and I return to LOS in 5, 10, 20 or 50 years.

For those who want to study online and via print materials while still being able to work abroad, I think the OU is the way to go. The Australian OU degrees cost not much more that attending an Internatinal program in a Thai Uni, and for me personally, I'd rather have a degree from an Australian Uni than from a Thai Uni, especially if considering teaching or working in other countries than Thailand.

Anyway, I'm now in the USA and in a few months will be back in Australia. I no longer work in Thailand and I'm kinda glad I don't have to put up with a lot of the BS there anymore. Being back in the West, even thought it's only been a few days now, feels a lot better and is more enjoyable than living in LOS. I will be contacting the school I use to work for in a few days and I'll be letting them know I won't be returning from my approved one month holiday. I don't realy care what they say because I have allready recieved my last salary in full and the school doesn't owe me money. For those who are planing to leave or change schools, I would do it in a way to protect yourself. I just left they day after pay day so the school wasn't able to rip me off. I know many others who have been ripped off by giving notice, so leaving the school in a sneaky way to protect yourself is deffinently the way to do it there. At the end of the day, if you do the right thing and give notice, you may be ripped off, If you do the wrong thing by the school and just vanish, you are actually doing the right thing for yourself be protecting your salary and protecting yourself from being subject to more BS and getting ripped off.

Anyway, back on topic, you can get legal without a degree, but if you're planing to stay there long term, I'd be doing whatever it takes to get a BA, especially if you are supporting family.

Cool. I've always wanted to visit Bangkwang. Deffiently not the place you would want to be locked up in, especially if your waiting to be executed!

Scott, does the school name you work for start with S?

If it is the school I'm thinking of, I wouldn't do anything, they most likely wouldn't care and you would just be looked at as a trouble maker. There are proably others there with fakes but some a-hole just decided to bust this one guy. I'd let it go if he is a good teacher anyway. But if you work for the school I'm thinking of, I would just forget about it and concentrate on all the other BS you have to deal with.

BTW, you said the dirrector indicated he should be discharged.................. INDICATED! What a load of <deleted>. Obviously the dirrector doesn't care so nor should you. The dirrector could of discharged the person themselves if they wanted or had the balls, so thats another reason to let it go.

Thanks for that info guys. He was planning to head down to immigration to pay for some kind of 30 day extension for 3000 THB!

I told hime to just go to Poi Pet and back the day or a few days before it expires and he will get another 90 days for less money anyway. Just wanted to confirm first.

My friend has a 1 year multi non B visa (no work permit and is not working?) and it is about to expire ( i mean the date the visa is valid untill )

If you do a border crossing the day before the visa expires and come back, do you still get another 90 day stamp?

I know that with 1 year non O visas if you do a visa run on the last day you get another 90 day stamp making the visa really good for 15 months in LOS, but I was not sure if the non B visa worked the same.

This guy was ready to fly back home to the USA to get a new visa and I just told him to wait untill I get the answer to this question and maybe he will be able to stay 90 days longer.

Thanks in advance.

I think the de-facto is a good visa coz not everyone wants to get married. However, to stop it from being abused, I do think the visa should be reviewed or at the most cancelled if the relationship ends. This would be fair so you could get a visa and live together without getting married, but would still be subject to having the visa cancelled if the relationship ended. This decision would not be based on anything in particular, many things would need to be considered.

Bring on the first week of June. I'm outa here!

I hope nothing happens, but it's not good for us not knowing what's going on.....................

I was told part of it was to do with democracy.

There was also a thread started about a high govnt official "Blaming the Thai people" for Thailands democracy situation. Something to those words. So, maybe the King was talking about issues about what was said by some govnt officials earlier.

Typical Thai govnt official hi-so ######s attitude.

Blame anyone but themselves..................................

Yes, democracy takes time to develope, and if the govnt went about it the right way, it would................. no need to blame the people.