Grey11

djees, nice forum , you type a name wrong (esp) and your post got delllleted... oh typo.. also delete ?

Yes but "ol' <deleted> chops" as a first name is pushing it a bit.

That's a good one. Reading the posts on the Red Shirts on yahoo news many posters referred to Thaksin as "square face." I thought that was a good one also.

djees, nice forum , you type a name wrong (esp) and your post got delllleted... oh typo.. also delete ?

Yes but "ol' <deleted> chops" as a first name is pushing it a bit.

Well, l think Mr. T has lost the plot (English saying), bit like somebody else, a so called leader who deny's the holocaust ever happened. Everyone with any ounce of sense draws the right conclusion.

What does the "holocaust" have to do with this?!

ALOT of hullabaloo for a LITTLE amount of blood that does a LARGE amount of damage to this country. All of the hype for that teeny little amount of blood? So sad, I mean if youre going to do something, do it BIG and make an impression.

I say leave it where it is and wait for Songkran. A few squirt guns and it will be gone. Problem solved.

Reading the more than 500 comments on the situation on yahoo news it seems that many in the rest of the world see Thailand as a dangerous, unstable country & commented that the people (Reds) act like animals and the pouring of the blood was idiotic, dangerous and black magic. For 4 years Thaksin has tried to destroy the reputation of Thailand around the world using these peasants from the north. No telling how many jobs have been lost to Thais with corporations from around the world deciding not to locate here. Though the coverage by the BBC has been totally pro-Red Shirts/Thaksin, tourism & the future loss of jobs is a result of the insurrection caused by these brainwashed Red Shirts. I was sickened watching these poorly educated people giving their blood & pouring it on the streets and gates of government offices. Black majic - even using Hindus to crawl in it - makes all of Thailand look like one of the most backward countries in the world. The PM has done a good job in keeping the peace. No other country in the world would have allowed this. The leaders should definitely be arrested and tried. Of course their hero, Thaksin is still traveling around the world in his private jet and was seen eating cakes & drinking wine in a sidewalk cafe in Montenegro. What a coward!

I just had a very articulate Thai women in my store who is very anti-Thaksin and has never had anything good to say about the redshirts. She feels that the protesters in Bangkok have conducted themselves so well this weekend that they are making a real case for themselves with Thais that were against them before.

Let us hope that no one has ruined all of that.

The BBC is giving mostly a one-sided pro-Red coverage of the Reds intent to overthrow the government. It is surprising what the BBC is LEAVING OUT of the events. The BBC coverage is in essence saying that the Reds are seeking a vote and implying that Thailand's present government is a dictatorship. But, then what can we expect from a country that has given safe haven to every convicted Thai criminal who flees the country?

You don't know what your talking about. What Thai criminal is being looked after in the UK ?. Where is your proof for us to read. Forget Thaksin, he was thrown out, who else ?.

You English are getting a bit sensitive aren't you? lol

I just had a very articulate Thai women in my store who is very anti-Thaksin and has never had anything good to say about the redshirts. She feels that the protesters in Bangkok have conducted themselves so well this weekend that they are making a real case for themselves with Thais that were against them before.

Let us hope that no one has ruined all of that.

The BBC is giving mostly a one-sided pro-Red coverage of the Reds intent to overthrow the government. It is surprising what the BBC is LEAVING OUT of the events. The BBC coverage is in essence saying that the Reds are seeking a vote and implying that Thailand's present government is a dictatorship. But, then what can we expect from a country that has given safe haven to every convicted Thai criminal who flees the country?

Taksin had his UK visa revoked and had to leave. And who are all these Thai criminals living in the UK? Anyone facing the death penalty if they're returned to their own country is allowed to stay and if the charges against them are considered credible they'll be locked up in the UK. I'm no redshirt but better than a redneck!

Where are the administrators? I thought it was against Thai Visa rules to revert to calling people disparaging names. Calling me a "redneck" is a personal attack on my character. This person does not know me. I live in Thailand and am married to a Thai. I am not a redneck/racist/bigot, etc. Since when has it been a crime to criticise England - the sun never sets on their empire now does it. The BBC has made a sham of coverage of these events. period.

i wouldn't say it was absolute stupidity - desperate maybe. Symbolically it will be very powerful while still being non violent. It will definitely get the attention of international media.

The international media - particularly the BBC - is making this protest to overthrow the present government as huge protest of masses of poor people being oppressed an oppressive dicattorial military government. 100,000 of 60 million marching for "justice" in Bangkok. CNN mentioned that many of them were paid to protest. The latest by the BBC didn't mention it. So whatever the Thai government does, it will be condemned by the rest of the world. It is human nature for the majority of people around the world to take the side of the oppressed (unless they are Palestinians of course).

It's because of responses like Loaded's I hope the army have the sense to remain cool.

I didn't read Loaded's response.....but why should the army remain cool? I think this is the perfect opportunity for the army to show some spine and venture out. An army unit was just fired upon.....any other time or place, in any country, and the neighbourhood would have been locked down and the perps tracked down and killed. Justifiably so.

Imagine if a grenade had been fired into an Israeli barracks while Palestinians protested outside.

Certainly the Israelis would have opened fire with rockets, used tanks to disperse the crowd, used planes & helicopters to bomb a few blocks of what is left of Palestinian land and then bulldozed a couple of blocks of homes. The Thai military is not that violent but they certainly should have done something. The Reds again and again make the Thai military look like a bunch of school girls. As long as they get away with instigating and engaging in violence they will continue. It will be a long time before Thaksin runs out of money to pay these people to overthrow the government and put himself back as PM. Do as the Israelis do, don't worry about what the rest of the world thinks.

I just had a very articulate Thai women in my store who is very anti-Thaksin and has never had anything good to say about the redshirts. She feels that the protesters in Bangkok have conducted themselves so well this weekend that they are making a real case for themselves with Thais that were against them before.

Let us hope that no one has ruined all of that.

The BBC is giving mostly a one-sided pro-Red coverage of the Reds intent to overthrow the government. It is surprising what the BBC is LEAVING OUT of the events. The BBC coverage is in essence saying that the Reds are seeking a vote and implying that Thailand's present government is a dictatorship. But, then what can we expect from a country that has given safe haven to every convicted Thai criminal who flees the country?

A short video showing some people with a list handing out some cash to people on the list. Wow...that is pretty clandestine stuff....and allowing someone to record the whole

thing a close range.... absolute proof that reds only protest for cash.... Now if this was the other side....they would never do anything this stupid....the money would be wire transferred to an offshore bank account... dam_n it if you are going to do corruption....do it right for gawds sake......

People so stupid that they would allow buying protestors to be videoed are too arrogant and stupid to run a Government. And, these people's votes count the same as an educated person with a Ph.D. Thaksin is not only a crook but a coward. Come to Thailand to lead your mob like a general instead of hiding behind the skirts of the Khmer Rouge PM of Cambodia.

Wonder if Thaksin's children took some of their illegal billions of baht with them that PM Thaksin helped them make. Rats leaving a sinking ship must surely mean that they know of the coming violence by the Thaksin's Red Brigade. Thought that once Thaksin joined Hun Sen's government in Cambodia some of the Reds in the north would walk away from Thaksin. Cambodia is no friend of Thailand - especially not the radical & former Khmer Rouge Hun Sen. But, the 300 to 500 baht per day being paid to the peasants from the North & Northeast is a lot of money to those people. Besides, how many of them even know that Thaksin accepted a job with the Cambodian Government? All of this is about Thaksin and only Thaksin wanting to overthrow the present government , get back into Power, appoint a new Supreme Court, get his money back, be pardoned, steal more money & punish his enemies. All of this is bad for the reputation of Thailand and Thaksin will not stop until back in Power and in the meantime drive away all corporate investors in Thailand. Who gets hurt when corporations don't locate here or tourists stay away? The very poor who are marching on Bkk & trying to get their crook back in Power.

well it seems to me with all these supposed plans it would be easy for the military to put a stop to a lot of it block the acess roads with their own trucks and tanks block the assembly areas and the demonstrations area the same with trucks tanks and what ever.

Let them walk into Bangkok they would all be too tired to demonstrate. Violence can be avoided if someone would use their head. And while they are walking check for wepons, explosives etc.

Certainly all buses loaded with Thaksin's Red Shirts should be stopped before reaching Bkk and searched by law enforcement. If weapons are found they should and can be seized. Those personally found to be carrying weapons should be arrested on the spot & taken to jail. Every bus coming into Bkk this week should be stopped & searched. The Reds want & need violence in their quest to overthrow the present government and put the criminal Thaksin back in power.

What is undeniable is that there are huge imbalances in Thai society and whether it is this time or another time there will be civil war unless something is done to address the real underlying issues.

At the moment I see nothing other than a determination by those in power to maintain the status quo.

In the long run this is not a viable strategy.

Separation of Church and State? No, it's rather the opposite here in this Kingdom.

By protesting with Thaksin's thugs, the monks are interfering with & are engaged in trying to overthrow the present government. Therefore, their actions are no longer a Church duty but have themselves taken part in State affairs. Separation of Church & State simply means that the prophets of religion not interfere with State affairs and the State not interfere in the affairs of the Church. But, if either the Government or the Church purposefully erases this line, then there is, and should not be "Separation of Church and State." The monks should stay in their temples instead of taking part in instigating violence.

Update:

PM Abhisit said Saturday that potentially terrorist attacks or sabotage aimed at creating unrest are not unrealistic.

That is exactly what the Thaksin Reds want - the army to engage them by shooting or clubbing a few of them - in order to overthrow the government and get their man Thaksin back in Power. The Reds will push as much as they can to make themselves look like victims when they in fact instigated the violence. The monks - always seen by me as a symbol of peace - joining these mobs of Reds really is disappointing. They are joining a mob that wants warfare. As long as Thaksin is alive, Thailand cannot rest in peace nor will other countries have enough faith in any government to locate industries in Thailand. The poor (Reds) are only hurting themselves. Sadly, I don't think the vast majority of them have enough education to know what they are doing - especially taking up with a traitor (Thaksin) who has joined the thuggish Cambodian government.

The largest pyramid schemes that will fail in the next 10 years are western governments. If you expect to live off a government paid pension outside of this period then think again and make alternative plans.

Western politicians will not even acknowledge let alone deal with the problems, they just kick the can and line there own pockets.

In the UK the interest on government borrowings is now over £40 billion a year which is more than the £32 billion we spend on defence - one of the few things any government should be actually engaged in - this is nearly £600 a year for every man woman and child in the country (officially not actually) or more frighteningly nearly £1,200 a year for every taxpayer -- this is just the interest. The debt itself can never be repaid as neither can the pensions, healthcare and other promises made to the current generation be paid by the next generation. They can't pay and they won't. The only way these promises could be paid, now that our birthrate is so low, is vast continuous immigration (assuming these immigrants work, pay tax and also don't bring all their dependent relatives with them - some assumption!), the system is a Ponzi scheme and requires evermore participants.

Other western governments are in similar positions, some better some worse like Greece. Japan also is a fly looking for a windsceen -- massive debt (200% of GDP), falling population but a rising proportion of elderly dependents and no immigration. They have kicked the can to the end of the road.

A few scams here are neither here nor there compared to the above.

The strength & hope that Japan has is that it is a homogeneous nation composed of people with a common language, culture, heritage,religion, etc. Japan is not overrun by immigrants who speak different languages, have different religions,, and do not assimilate as immigrants in the West tend not to do. The U.S. is fast becoming a Tower of Babel & that weakens a nation. We also see the major problems today in Britain & France b/c of massive immigration.

How about this for a prediction ?

There will not be a hung parliament and Labour will stay in power.

Not so crazy as it sounds, when hung parliaments look a distinct possibility the Liberal vote can get squeezed.

The Conservative lead is slipping faster than Sterling, no polls since yesterdays announcement of Lords Ashcroft's non-dom tax status, that's going to hit them hard. They are not trusted by the electorate on health or education. Their economic plans, or preference for large cuts in govt spending immediately if they are elected has been called in to question across the board. In any event turkeys don't vote for Christmas and a lot of people might decide that their jobs are safer under Labour.

Mind you I also fail to predict the correct numbers in the Lottery each week...

Dukes, Earls, Sirs, Lords? How about the Duke of Earl?!

will the baht level stop tiger woods doing his re-hab in the buffallo bar

Tiger is American not British

Now we know.

Who's responsible for selling these crappy grenades that don't go off?

Probably Communist China getting rid of some of the excess lead that is left over from putting in food for export.

Its another happy new Red dawn courtesy of The People revolution rising for The People, the People's revolution party speaking for The People etc. hoo~ray.

Shame about the innocent bystanders who always end up getting blown to bits eventually, but I suppose they are not The People, just 'some people' or 'remains of people'. Nurses and doctors and gravediggers are people too, and they get more work thanks to The People Party. Hiphip for the Reds.

I don't care what anybody says,my opinion: Thaksin is a monster because he stirs up embers & tries to create infernos. I think he should have $0 & life in jail. That People Power for the rural poor thing is BS, there's urban poor too & they get bombed because that clown Thaksin has turned disagreements into bombs, and turned people on their friends.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Stupid question I know; but what`s the point of this excerise?

The point is the police were able to get money - fines - from those arrested before they released them. I'll bet those officers will have a huge party this weekend. Hope some don't use the money to help the Red Shirts exercise the violence they want to do in Bangkok. Somebody is paying big money for the buses, food, & payments to those tens of thousands of Red Shirts headed to Bkk from Northern Thailand. I don't think Thaksin is paying for all of it. Wondering if the Government is stopping the buses headed from Northern & Northeastern Thailand and checking and confiscating the weapons.

Who is offering the Alleged bribe, Red or yellow?

Red

Agreed. Thaksin has his army heading to Bkk from the north. Certainly he has tried to bribe the judges. Criminality is his game.

You want to remain in poverty? Call this thief back and die...

Bigger thieves are currently running the government now I'm afraid.

I really don't think they have been in Power enough to steal as much as Thaksin did. Are all of the current PM's relatives billionaires yet? I think not.

I find this a bit disturbing Control centres sounds like something Hitler set up in the 1940's. Next all Red shirts will be asked to wear an insignia on there shoulder.

Hitler has been dead for 65 years! What in the hel_l has he got to do with this? The Red Shirts perhaps remind you of the Brown Shirts under Hitler? These peasants following their hero, the crooked convicted criminal thaksin, want to overthrow the government with the only way they know - violence. And, as long as Thaksin is alive, there is the threat that these radicals will overthrow the Government to get Thaksin back in there. Thaksin made his billions partly on the back of the poor, threw them a few crumbs and now they are willing to die for him. Lack of education is indeed a dangerous thing & all of Northern Thailand is part of the epidemic.

such as France from imposing their power over smaller states such as Thailand), made the decision on page 34 of their judgment (page 64 in this pdf):

You can decide if you think it is fair...

Thanks for those references in your post. They have made some interesting reading. I will list what I think are my conclusions from them and the rest of the discussion. They have changed my opinion of the matter as one from which was with what seems to be popular opinion against Thailand, to one where I am generally in support of the contention that the border delineated in 1904 is not fair to Thailand.

So I first conclude that the "border" shown on the recent maps is (still) the "1904 border" projected onto the Google Earth ellipsoid as accurately as possible given the source of the information (not known) and generally reflects that Cambodia was given control of the temple and immediately surrounding area. If you had detailed maps to compare with, I think you might find that border as projected is slightly inaccurate, maybe a little south and east of where that border technically should be shown (according to the 1904 ruling).

The "ball" was in French hands in 1904 and they basically decided to draw the boundary in this ISOLATED case in favor of Cambodia (their own colony) with what appears to be no justification.

The major objection of Thailand is that border is not drawn in regards to the norm of being the "fall" line, or rainfall dividing line. Clearly the Google Earth 3d view shows this to be true (NOT drawn in accordance) to those understanding basic geometry. The "fall line" is generally the ridge along which all rainfall that falls on one side goes one-way and on the other side the other. There is a great North American divide separating Atlantic and Pacific drainage. A divide touches the peak of Mount Everest. The McMahon Line runs along the crest of the eastern Himalayas demarcating much of the boundary between India and Tibet. It's demarcation can be quite straightforward, the principle is basically that borders decided in this manner insure that the countries involved remain in the control of their own watershed. It slightly breaks down where there are intermontane basins that drain inward only. Split them?

Thailand claims the rainfall line should have been drawn along the southern edge of the cliff giving Thailand full sovereignty of the Temple. Without having the topographic maps to prove it I contend this Thai claim has validity but goes too far. The fall line exists. It touches a peak in the area. That peak is probably in the center of the temple. Aren't most temple's built on the mountain top? Thus the actual fall line, that which should have been delineated in 1904, divides the temple.

Thailand's objection was in response to Cambodia's assertions to the world court in 1962. The world court ruled on Thailand basically "suck eggs" you already agreed in 1904 and in favor of Cambodia.

So what can Thailand do? I don't know. The border was drawn unfairly. The whole issue is mired in other border issues, both with Cambodia and applies elsewhere. It could only be solved as a "local" issue. Thaksin tried to use the situation he thought no one cared about to establish a precedent that he, as Prime Minister, could enact agreements with other foreign countries in his own power and without the consent of parliament (and in his own interest?) and that is at issue in the Thai constitutional debate.

I can only see this as possibly resolved as a local issue, un-intertwined with outside issues, for local interests on both sides of the border. Split the baby (regardless of where technically that line should be). A box around a "no border within" jointly controlled zone where tourists can go in and out? Both sides have to give. And in result a source of income for the locals, preservation of the temple can be acted on. A Thai village in the north and a Cambodia village in the south of the zone?. Tourists shouldn't be able too cross the border fully. Local souvenirs sold by local people. Local restaurants. NO retail markets or duty frees!

Is it "worth a visit" (when the shooting stops)? :-)

JMHO

EXCELLENT!

I don't suppose it's any coincidence that the Chinese are Cambodia's greatest benefactor and they're currently locking horns with Google?

Rubbish. Nice of you to join TV to share this piece of political wisdom.

I agree with you misterjag. And, you have the right to your opinion whether someone likes it or not. There is absolutely nothing in Southeast Asia that Communist China does not have a hand in either from the outside - the Government or Chinese inhabitants of ALL Southeast Asian countries. You can bet Cambodia is joining with Communist China to come after google.