Thailand Outcast

7 hours ago, JackThompson said:

"Denied Entry" is not a crime, and no "cannot come back" rule exists.  The only punitive measure is recording the action in the immigration system and your passport.

 

As to "Deportation" from the interior, the "cannot come back" requires a ban be imposed, which would not occur in all deportation cases.   Some banning is semi-automatic, based on overstay-time.

It's ridiculous there is no time frame given after a failed entry attempt. 

What's stopping someone from repeatedly attempting to enter, via air, land, or sea, day after day? 

7 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

The opposite is true. The seasoning ruse used by agents previously required only a single date on which proof of monies in a Thai bank was required, and once the extension was given they'd completed their job. The new rules are much more complicated, and make it all too easy for agents to accept payments on false pretences. Payment upfront to provide a current year extension remains the easy and deliverable part, but the three months post extension proof and residual full year account balance is much more doubtful, with no reports of how this works out even possible until 2020. In the past, all an agent had to do to prove their integrity was to return the passport stamped with the visa extension, but it's no longer so simple. 

I know what the agents were doing under the old system.  It appears they are still able to offer their services under the new system. 

I am lucky because my current visa doesn't expire for a while, so I am very interested to see what happens over the next few months, particularly with reports of immigration wanting to see a bank book balance at 90 day reports, and as you say, an untouched 400k. 

It's sounds to me that these new rules were bought in to push many onto agents, so immigration staff make a lot of money. 

The use of agents may be allowed to flourish in an industry, similar to the "visa run" industry, so I would expect to see a little competition in the market. 

If their prices remain reasonable, or are lower, due to increased competition, and they can deal with the 90 day report and 400k issue, this method may well be financially beneficial than the 800k method that runs at a loss.

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Me too lol


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Seer post 106. 

Lollllllllllllllllllllllllllll.  ????

7 hours ago, steven100 said:

Please show me the non aggresive balanced fund returning 7% that you are talking about.

I have 300K AUD to put up.

I Googled for an Australian Fund comparison and came up with this on the first page.  I didn't even have to look hard to find between 6% and 8%.  I used your figure of $300,000AUD and selected "Multi Sector Growth."  They are returning between 6% and 8%. 

https://www.canstar.com.au/compare/managed-funds?profile=Multi-Sector+Growth&amount=300000

Can you see how the Thai's are taking the p*ss, forcing you to loan 800k, 400k as a fixed permanent loan, at a lousy 1.5% interest rate?  Makes for an expensive visa. 

I like Thailand, but I also know a bad deal when I see one.  That said, I will see what the agents are offering before I leave for Vietnam.  

8 hours ago, jacko45k said:

 

Quote

What are the alternatives?  

 

Vietnam.

Firstly, I don't overstay, but let's say I did. 

I am confused by some of the information on this thread.

I have plenty of money in my bank account to deal with something like this, and plenty of credit in my phone.

I don't need a friend to give me money or buy me an air ticket.  I don't need to involve my elderly mother, or other family members. 

All I would need is access to the internet, via my phone, and probably a phone charger, and I can buy the air ticket out.

When I go to the beach I don't carry anything, except for my Thai license and a towel, so no cash or ATM card, so that would be a problem.

If you are independent and have the funds, if they allowed you use of your phone, you could have this sorted out in 10 minutes, and could be taken to the nearest international airport for deportation, although if arrested on the weekend, I believe you have to wait until Monday to go to Court. 

Why do they make you rely on third parties for something you can do yourself?  Visits also makes more work for the guards. 

Not questioning moderation, Ubonjoe, but is overstaying a criminal offense? 

I was under the belief it was not a criminal offense, because an overstayer, whilst there were arrested, they were only detained, and deported, not jailed.

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Jomtien is giving out letters with new extensions "come back and show your bank book" stamped with a date 90-days in the future. 

 

Someone asked at CW-Bangkok about this, and was told they weren't doing it there, but each office can make up whatever enforcement-regime for post-application seasoning it wants.

 

One report said an agent was only going to charge 500 Baht for these - but it is also possible they just don't schedule appointments for agent-applications - same as they don't look at the pre-application seasoning.

So, not only is there now "boarder shopping" for entering, there will probably be "immigration office shopping" for remaining here, and I don't meant just for a shorter queue.  ????

On 3/17/2019 at 10:17 PM, BritTim said:

Denied entry is totally different from being arrested in country and subsequently deported (whatever the reason for the deportation). There are many good threads on ThaiVisa that describe what happens to people in the immigration detention centre (IDC) and the deportation process.

If you are arrested in country, you are classified as being "deported" which now has some punitive time frames before you are allowed to come back to Thailand.  

If you are denied entry, do you know what this is classified as, and are there any punitive measures for this?

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

The financials have been "out the window" for undesirables ever since the first immigration-agent-partner opened their shop.  The only new change is more honest "desirable" types being forced into this system. 

It could be a wash for the banks - those still putting up the money will leave more of it longer, and others will stop putting up the money at all.

I know the agents have been in operation for years, "loaning" money to foreigners for visas applications, no seasoning needed. 

What I meant was, "undesirables" that haven't even been able to afford the agents fees in the past, may be able to in the future, because there may be some competition in the agent market, which lowers prices for the consumer.  

I agree with your comment about the banks.  They will either see a windfall out of this, or, it could backfire, with people who have traditionally used the 800k method, now moving to agents, and leaving their 800k elsewhere to work harder for them.  Not to mention, they can actually use it as they please.  ????

Thai banks are offering about 1.5% interest, That's about 12,000 baht a year.  Not withstanding you basically can never use 400k of your own money.

You could put that 800k in a well managed and balanced, non aggressive fund, returning around 6% to 8%.  Taking the average at 7%, that's 56,000 baht a year.

If the agents want, say, 20,000 baht, you would be 24,000 baht a year (2000 a month)  better off using the agents, allowing for the 12,000 baht you could have made with a Thai bank. 

Also, you do not have the stress of arranging your financials and paperwork, and dealing with immigration yourself. 

You might also need to take a few passport photos. 

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

You have reiterated numerous times that you will not be held hostage by the govt and that your principles are not for sale. Yet you are willing to work with an agent knowing that you are condoning corruption in the back office.


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I do not condone corruption, but it is a part of Thai culture, and must be accepted as a part of living in Thailand.  We are faced with it every day here, to varying degrees.

The "principles" I allude to are not in relation to corruption. They are in relation to keeping control over your own finances, and not having them manipulated by the Thai government.  

I see your point that I would still be manipulated to a degree, because I would now have to pay for an agent, but that works both ways, because then I would not need 800k in the bank, and wouldn't even need to show the 65k a month. 

With the use of agents, the system basically becomes a "pay for time" visa system. 

This is why I mentioned that it could backfire on the Thai government, and thus, the Thai banks, whilst immigration staff get rich. 

If the corrupt agents are allowed to proliferate, and it appears the new rules do cater to their services, then potentially, you could see a lot more undesirables here, as the required financials go out the window. 

It may even be the case people with 800k in the bank ditch that method and use an agent, so there's no stress about seasoning and the untouched 400k, and their 800k earns about 4000 baht extra a month than if put in a Thai bank.   

As time passes, it will be interesting to see what "services" these agents will be able to offer, and at what price.

18 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Given the rule-changes on bank-funds and the loss of embassy-letters, a much larger percentage of applications are likely now being processed in the "back room" in bulk - delivered by agents - so fewer applicants will be present at the front-desk.  That was the purpose of those changes, after all.

 

The prior-rule was 65K gross income.  The new-rule, for those w/o embassy-letters any more, is 65K "transferred to Thailand" income.  UJ addressed the effect of this, above.

 

Anyone lying about their gross-income on an embassy-letter for the USA or AU (not sure for UK) was committing a felony, which could result in being blacklisted from Thailand plus prosecution and loss of their passport.  Any lying was "on them" - not on the embassy, who merely witnessed a sworn statement.  Thai immigration could have referred cases for prosecution, if they believed the letters were fraudulent.  If they had, I am sure it would have been headline "bad farang" news - but doesn't seem they ever did.

 

The rule changes will make many IOs a lot of money in agent-fees.  That seems much more likely as a motivating factor, than worry about retirees spending less than 65K/mo in "free money" into the Thai economy (where no "welfare" for foreigners exists) or borrowing 800K for 3 months, when immigration's agent-partners offer a cheaper solution that only requires a 1-hour loan.  There was no point in increasing the seasoning, which is ignored for agent-applications anyway, except to force more honest-applicants to immigration's agent-partners.

Any idea what the agents are asking for their "services?" 

57 minutes ago, Date Masamune said:

It is all rubbish the don’t like/trust
Thai banks brigade can’t stump up the 800.


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I don't have a dislike for Thai banks. 

Whilst Thailand is a 3rd World country, with a history of coups and poor governance, I don't see Thai banks as a big risk.  Yes, more risky than a bank in my home country, but not too risky for 800k. 

I will not be depositing the money based on principle, and if I had to focus any "dislike" it would be at the Thai government. 

The spin off of the new visa rules is a lot of cheap money for Thai banks, thus, the Thai economy.

I will ask you the same question I asked another member.  At what baht figure would you decide it's not worth the risk, or, you are losing too much return, being forced to deposit money into a Thai bank, for a retirement visa?  Would it be 1 million?  1.5 million?  1.8 million?  2 million?  At what figure would you say enough is enough and not play "the game?" 

9 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I was referring to the guys who say they have no problem in being able to deposit the 800K but choose not to as they can get a better return on their investment elsewhere. 

 

For me, moving to Cambodia because whilst you can afford to soak-up the 4K less income you choose not to is nuts - It's like choosing to stay in a 6K room that might be OK but really you want & can afford the 10K one where you'd be happier, that really is nuts!!!  For any retiree, comfort & happiness should be worth a lot more than extra income that you don't actually need (always nice to have though).

 

I agree with your point about guys who made financial plans, have lived happily for many years following those plans & could continue to do so but are going to struggle because the goal post have been moved - But they're not the guys that can really afford to deposit 800K in the bank (they may have the means to but if it hurts you financially then you can't really afford it) but choose not to do so and choose to go live somewhere else. 

 

 

Apologies, "Moaning" was the wrong word, I was struggling to come up with a way of expressing my point & have clearly failed as you've replied about the "numbers" & I'm talking about people who have no problem with the "numbers" but choose to move elsewhere so they can have a slightly higher "number" that they don't really need. 

At the end of the day, my view on life is that money itself has no value - It's what the money affords you that is the value & so leaving 800K untouched in a Thai bank account value to me is that it paves the way to being able to retire in Thailand & if I had to put a price on it, it's worth more than 4K pm to me, but not 40K so somewhere between there - but If they increase the requirement beyond 1 - 1.5 Million then I would weigh up the pros & cons of adding the extra cash Vs going down the Privileged Entry (Thai Elite as was) route Vs moving somewhere else, but if I still wanted to live in Thailand and could afford it, then I would do it.  

 

There obviously is a "number" at which point I wouldn't be able to afford to live in Thailand, but at that point, I wouldn't be on here saying that I could afford that "number" but choose not to I'd be on here saying how unfair it was for them to change it (Which I agree with @JackThompsonit is without grandfathering existing retirees or at least giving them a bit more than a couple of months notice).

 

You can't take it with you guys... 

 

Edit: I love the Philippines but I think you've made the right decision in choosing Vietnam as your "2nd Home" (from what I've read, I wouldn't be surprised if it became your "1st Home" and Thailand became just another place that you visit on holiday) - I hope you start a thread about your experiences as I'd love to hear how you get on, am seriously tempted to do something similar.

No need to apologize.  There's no harm in discussing this issue.

So, you agree there would be a "number" where you would assess whether to deposit and remain, or go Elite, or go to another country?  For me, that number is the 800k.  For you, it's "1 - 1.5 million."  My point is, we all have a "number" in mind where we no longer see the value in Thai retirement visa.  

I have a diverse portfolio of cash at bank, property, and shares.  I could have deposited the 800k some years ago, but chose not to then, and I chose not to now. 

It's not just the return on investment, or the loss of the approximate 4000k baht a month.  It's the principle.  I will not allow the Thai government to manipulate my finances, no matter what "carrot" they put in front of me, or what punitive measures they take. 

Everything had been going along well for me under the 65k a month system.  I'm not prepared to change the balance of my portfolio for a Thai retirement visa.  It's my choice, and I am not complaining I will have to leave Thailand because of that choice.  That said, I will seek prices from agents before making the jump. 

Interestingly, if the agent's prices are reasonable, this could all backfire on the Thai government, and the Thai banks, as people pay a one off "fee" to an agent and do not bring in the 800k.   

Another thing, when I die, I don't want to leave a problem for my family by having assets in Thailand, including cash at bank.  This is not a major consideration, but did play a factor in my decision some years ago.  

I would like to make it clear that I don't hold Thailand in such a high regard as others.  Vietnam, for example, has everything Thailand has, but without all the BS.  It wasn't like I gave serious consideration to moving the 800k.  I have no problems going to Vietnam.

If / when I go, Vietnam will be my primary place of residence, but I will "holiday" in Thailand as frequently, and for as long as I can.  I really will not be missing out on much. 

I will have a 1 year multi Vietnam visa for around $400USD.  No other hoops to jump through.  Pay your money, get your visa.   

In a way, the Thailand visa issue could actually make my life easier. 

23 hours ago, jacko45k said:

You may have your rule-book upside down.

I bring money into Thailand to spend, and like to be ahead, so keep some in the bank. 

More common rules are don't invest more than you are prepared to lose and don't be worth more dead than alive.

Haven't lost a single satang from the bank yet.. outside of their charges,

That 800k in a non aggressive managed fund would easily make you 6% to 8%, yet, you settle for 1.5%, so you can get a retirement visa.  Makes for an expensive visas, and you can't touch 400k of your own money, at all.  That's a loss of around 6%, or 48,000 baht.  (around 4000 baht a month) 

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

It astounds me how people say they have the funds but don't want to leave 800k in a Thai bank account because it's a bad investment and then go on to moan about the fact that they now have to leave Thailand.

 

Let's say you're making an extra 6% (not easy in a risk free investment) on that 800k, that's  48k per year - is it really such a bad investment to pay 4k pm to live where you want to live?

 

 

Firstly, I am not moaning about leaving Thailand.  You will not see me complaining on this thread.  Do not confuse being critical of the new laws with moaning.

I do have the funds, but I will not be pushed into capitalizing Thai banks by Thai immigration, so I can say I live in Thailand, rather than say I live 6 months in Thailand and 6 months in Vietnam. 

It's a lousy deal, and one I am not going to accept.

I have a question for you.  At what figure would you say it becomes a lousy deal for you?  1 million?  1.5 million?  1.8 million?  2 million? 

There has to be a figure where you would actually say to yourself, "this is not worth the financial loss and / or risk." 

Not to mention, currently, you can't touch 400k of your own money, forever.  Just say the 400k untouched rose to 800k. In no other circumstances would you accept the loss of use of your money, but in Thailand, many "bend over" for Thailand, well, I don't bend over for the Thai government, and they will actually lose money from me, rather than gain money. 

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

No, the "Funny" thing is that if you don't work, you're not eligible for the METV (Multi-Entry Tourist Visa)...

For Multiple Entries (stay up to 60 days for each entry within the period of 6 months)

• A current passport with validity of over 6 months beyond the date of application  and at least 2 blank pages
• Visa application form completely filled out
• Two (2) recent photos of the applicant
• Original bank statement of the applicant showing a balance of at least £5,000 (for 6 months) or a print out with official stamp of the bank
• A letter from the applicant's employer (in the UK and addressed to the Royal Thai Embassy) If you are self-employed, you self-assessment and a company registration document are required.
• A photocopy of the confirmed air ticket to Thailand
• A photocopy of the hotel reservation confirmation in Thailand

 

 

Well, it is "funny" that you need a letter from an employer that you are taking 6 months leave from. ????

Most people would just resign, or have to resign, unless they work for government.

The self employed thing is not a problem for me, but I can see some foreigners have friends write letters stating they are a professional shoe shiner, for example.  ????