Thailand Outcast

1 hour ago, Kopitiam said:

Yes, its doable.  But think of all the hassle of going back to your home country to apply for the OA visa together with police check, medical, etc.  May be still bearable for some.  After awhile Thai Imm may also tighten this loop hole up by limiting the number of OA visa you can apply.

I agree.

 

Despite the travel back to their home country, I think this will be a popular visa choice to move to, under the new new laws, so I can definitely see a tightening up on this visa. 

 

Most likely it would be a quick and simple adjustment of making it a 12 month multi entry visa, no second year anymore.  However, it's possible they could limit how many of these visas one can apply for.

Can someone refresh my memory?

 

Is there a grace period where by one can go to an immigration office to extend their expired visa exempt stamp or 60 day visa? 

16 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I agree setting a limit is the right thing to do, but I don't want it to happen because it then screws things up for everyone. IMO the main reason they aren't setting a limit is because the current immigration system is not capable of keeping count. They tried setting a limit years ago and stopped because the IO's spent too much time flicking through passports and counting time spent in the country.

 

 

Well, then they can do like the USA and other countries. 

 

You must notify Thai immigration, online, prior to your visit.  The computer does the rest. 

 

Yeah, I know, it's rocket science.  ????

 

How does it screw things up for everyone? 180 days is 180 days, for all, it doesn't discriminate, unlike the immigration officers. 

3 minutes ago, elviajero said:

All I know for a fact is that the visa is meant for retirees. But as long as the retiree is not doing any work on Thai soil they are not breaking any laws.

So why not create a similar visa for those under 50?  They don't work, much the same as retirees. 

 

There's no correct visa for these people, hence, they come in on tourist visas, and now immigration are giving them a hard time, rather than make an appropriate visa for them, with criteria that they have to meet, so all this uncertainty and BS can finally end.

3 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You're supposed to be retired (not working) and want permission to stay to live in the country without working. I doubt they would have a problem with someone still working as long as it was abroad, but I wouldn't declare the fact.

So, the member obtained their retirement visas fraudulently. (illegally) 

 

So, what "legal" visa would you recommend for them in their circumstances? 

 

You see, many people "living" here "wouldn't declare the fact" they are, when on a tourist visas.  Much the same as people shouldn't be working on a retirement visa.

1 minute ago, elviajero said:

It's been discussed many times. 

If they do decide to limit time spent in the country to -- almost certainly 180 days -- that ends long term tourism for all. Currently a few get denied while many others still get away with it.

 

IMO the current enforcement, although not ideal, is better than a fixed limit that screws things up for everyone and doesn't help the few being denied.

I disagree.

 

It brings certainty to the system, while ensuring no one stays more than 180 days in Thailand on tourist visas. 

 

Isn't the current idea of authorities "to end long term tourism for all?" 

 

So what's wrong with everyone knowing an official amount of days allowed in Thailand per year, and then they can plan their entries? 

3 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

 

Why didn't you get a tourist visa?   Do you think Thailand wants everyone to enter for free?  

They are denying entry to people with tourist visas as well. Many of which have reported they fly to a nearby country and enter at a land boarder, with the same visa that was denied at the airport.  Go figure.  

1 hour ago, chainarong said:

Basically,  if you are working over sea's say in mining and fly in out for taxation purposes like some Aussies do Using Thailand as a home base , the days of using an arrival card to enter Thailand is dead.

Yes, but what appropriate documents have the Thai authorities implemented for this sector of tourists?  Zero? 

 

They just let all that money go to Vietnam, Cambodia, Philippines, Bali etc, because, "You come Thailand too much.  What you do here?"  ????

5 minutes ago, elviajero said:

There is no definition issued by immigration. Thai law considers anyone that has stayed in the country longer than 180 days to be resident.

 

Immigration don't seem bothered by the number of entries, just the cumulative time spent in the country, but there is no official time limit.

 

"Living in Thailand" is subjective, but if someone spends months/years in the same country bar a few border hops, I think it's evident where they are living.

"Thai law considers anyone that has stayed in the country longer than 180 days to be resident."  "but there is no official time limit."

 

Well, that clears that up.  ????

 

Seriously though, yes, obviously a guy doing visa runs is living here, but why not issue clear rules, consistently enforced at ALL boarders, so someone "living" here on tourist visas can actually abide by a law governing their frequency nd duration of visits?

6 minutes ago, lkv said:

Very good question.

 

Offshore oil rig guys using visa exempt too many times were "in the wrong", they were molested and advised to use a visa next time, tourist visa that is. ????

 

Reason: "no more free for you, enough".

Yes.  So they reject millions of baht from this segment of "tourists" because they don't get a small visa free from them, and they only come to Thailand 30 days out of the 60 day visa anyway.  Muppets.

 

Add to the offshore guys, the miners, and merchant navy guys, and that's a lot of money lost.

14 minutes ago, elviajero said:

There isn't a visa to provide a 4/5 month stay. The most convenient option would probably be a Multiple Entry Tourist Visa (METV). You would get 60 days on entry that can be extended by 30 days; after which you'd need to exit and return for a new 60 day stay - also extendable if required.

 

If you can't get a METV you could get a Single Entry Tourist Visa (SETV) in your home country. That would give you 60 days on entry, extendable by 30 days. At the end of the 90 days you could travel to a Thai embassy/consulate in a neighbouring country and apply for another SETV. That would give you another 60/90 days.

OR

After the first 90 days you could do a border hop and re-enter under visa exemption. In that case you'd get a 30 day stay, extendable by 30 days.

 

"There isn't a visa to provide a 4/5 month stay."

 

Correct, and then you go on to offer advice about how he can LEGALLY be in Thailand for 5 months, but then go and post how these people are NOT LEGAL and should be denied entry.

 

You contradict yourself. 

23 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You did the right thing!

 

I hate to be pedantic, but people often confuse visitor with tourist. We are all visitors (not tourists);  tourism is just one reason for allowing a visitor to enter.

 

The Thai authorities do not have issues with long term visitors, but they clearly have a problem with long term tourists.

If they are one in the same, why have a problem with one, and not the other?

 

There are many reasons why someone does not qualify for a retirement visa, the biggest one being they are under 50 years of age.

 

What about the FIFO workers, or contract workers, or people with passive incomes?  What visa do you suggest for these people, if they are under 50?

38 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The reality is that there were over 5 million tourist entries last year by the top 17 (by number) western countries, and you think denying entry to a few long term tourists trying to live in the country (most admit the fact) with inappropriate visas creates a perception of hostility; LOL!

 

"a few long term tourists trying to live in the country"

 

Can you define the use of your words "live in Thailand" and feel free to speak on behalf of Thai Immigration as well, as they don't seem to know, either.

 

Is it more that 180 days a year?

 

Is it how many time you enter?

 

For example, does an offshore oil rig guy doing 1 month on and 1 month off classify as "living" in Thailand? 

 

I am interested to know, at Thai law, at what point, OFFICIALLY, can you be deemed as "living in Thailand."

28 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Good post. I used to have a regional job covering Asia and made Thailand my homebase, travelling in and out on visa exempt. I would typically stay 1-2 weeks in Thailand before leaving for a few days to a couple of weeks. Did this successfully for a few years, from around 2008-2013.
However I saw the writing on the wall and decided to go the retirement route. Since then, I have had nothing but incident and hassle free immigration encounters.
Thailand does not (or did not) have issues with long term tourists. They just wanted us to have the appropriate visa. Tourist visas (SETV or METV) are not the right kind of visa for long stay purposes.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

It's my understanding you are not supposed to be working, either in Thailand, or abroad, whilst having a retirement visa.  I could be wrong, but I remember something like that.

1 hour ago, luckyluke said:

Well I am a lucky Luke,

 

15+years using a Letter of Income. 

 

Next to this :

 

Copies of passport pages. 

Copy of rent agreement. 

Copy of TM6. 

 

After waiting time, take usually 5 minutes for officer, and I am out. 

 

But have to go back the next day, to pick up my passport with extension, and taking picture. 

 

So no change for me so far in all these years. 

 

 

What nationality are you?

18 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I am not aware of a limit on Tourist Visa issuance / use in Vietnam.  Many stay there year-round without issue as tourists, and they still welcome this. 

Correct.

 

There is no retirement visa in Vietnam.

 

They have tourist visas, business visa, and temporary residency. 

 

All of these can be back to back and you can move to different visas classes as you please. 

 

There have a pay as you go visa system, with no other hoops to jump through, and no limits on the amount of visas accumulated, and no problems on the style of each visa you chose. 

50 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Selective thought process.

Firstly if one uses an agent he pays 18,000 baht more and there is no extra monthly charge using regular methods. With an agent you won't get a Visa but an Extension that has been obtained by bribing an immigration official.  The agent method (without the qualifying bank/income funds) is and always will be a back door method where corruption is involved.  Don't get me wrong, I would use it if I did not see better alternatives. 

I thought I put forward the maths in this thread, but it was in another thread, so I have cut and pasted it.

 

In order to be consistent, I have not edited it. 

 

I agree with you the use of agents is a corrupt method, and I have never used them before, and never considered using them, but if they are allowed to continue to operate, and at this stage it appears they are, then, their use can only be described at state sanctioned corruption, therefore, making a visa obtained through an agent, perfectly fine for the holder.  

 

Quote:

 

Firstly, the 800k is tied up for 5 months.  400k is tied up forever.  Of course, you can withdraw any or all of it, but you will not receive next year's visa, so that's as good as 400k you will never see again, for as long as you wish to live in Thailand. 

 

You will get between 6% to 8% return if your 800k is in a diversified, non aggressive, managed fund, in your home country.  Let's just pick the average of 7% for this example.

 

You get 1.5% from a Thai bank for your 800k.

 

Here's the maths.

 

800,000 baht x 7% = 56,000 baht per year.  (return from a fund)

 

800,000 baht x 1.5% = 12,000 baht per year.  (return from a Thai bank)

 

56,000 baht - 12,000 baht = 44,000 baht.  (this is what you are forced to "lose" under the 800k method)

 

44,000 baht + 1900 baht (visa fee) = 45,900 baht.  (this is the total cost to an expat using the 800k method, and they have lost the use of their money through seasoning and have to deal with all the paperwork)

 

45,900 baht / 12 months = 3.825 baht. (visa cost per month to live in Thailand under the 800k method)

 

versus

 

20,000 baht / 12 = 1,666 baht.  (visa cost per month to live in Thailand if you use an agent, and there is no seasoning to worry about, and you maintain control of your finances, which are left in a safe western country, and no paperwork to do)

 

3,825 baht - 1,666 baht = 2,159 baht.  This is the extra cost to people using the 800k method, or, what people using the agents save, per month.

 

Remember, we are talking about the same "product."  Not an inferior visa class.  

 

Of course, there are other issues to think about, like how your beneficiaries get the money if it's in a Thai bank etc, but the above shows the loss / savings over one method versus the other method.

 

I am lucky, I have some time to sit back and see what happens after the 90 days, with those who have used an agent. 

 

To sum up, the 800k runs at a continual loss for the expat, as it doesn't even keep up with inflation.  

 

You say I don't see the 20,000 baht ever again, but you don't see the 44,000 baht in losses, that you will never earn each year, from being forced to lodge 800k into a Thai bank, at 1.5%, with 400k of it you can never use again.    

 

Now, compare the 800k method to the visas offered in nearby countries, and you can see what a lousy deal this is.   

 

End quote.

1 minute ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Money is the easiest way to cull the herd. Get rid of the poorer expats and keep the richer.

This kills two birds with one stone. Reducing the total amount of retirees and increasing the perceived quality of the remaining retirees.

 

I still haven't heard anyone come up with an explanation as to WHY the rules have changed.

If that's the case, when will the 800k jump to 1.5 million, to have a "better" herd?

42 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Housing problem? No, not at all. The problem is the very high population of foreigners living in Thailand.

The contribution to the Thai economy by retirees is tiny. Total tourism only accounts for 17%. Maybe it should be you doing the research.

Me trolling? Nope. You just don't like what I'm saying.

Still waiting on your explanation on why the government has done this.

To capitalize Thai banks. 

 

It's a cheap farang loan to the Thai banking sector, therefore the Thai economy. 

 

Why else do you think you can't touch the 800k for 5 months, and the 400k forever, if the purpose of the money is to prove you have funds to live on here?

34 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Nope. You're forgetting the cultural aspect and I have already said that the money people spend here is insignificant. You seem to be hung up on this money thing. It's not about money.

They want to reduce the amount of Westerners living here because their population has exploded in recent years. The easiest way to do that is exactly what they are doing.

 

I have offered an opinion on why they have done this. You haven't.

You only say it's a mistake and short sighted, which could be construed as self-serving and subjective.

Thais are not as stupid as people think and there must be a reason for these new regulations. I'd be interested in what you think the reason for them are, in an objective way.

Joe, how can you say it's not about the money when the new laws are based on exactly that, money????

 

Why would they want to reduce the amount of expat retirees here?  They don't take a job from a Thai.  They bring in foreign currency.  They contribute to the housing and vehicle industry here.  They are not a burden on health care because their either pay up front, or have insurance.  They pay taxes, everything from property taxes to VAT.  They certainly contribute to the hospitality industry here.  99.9% are law abiding, so no trouble with the police.  In general terms, provide employment.  

 

You seem to have this view that any expat who doesn't put 800k in a Thai bank must have lost all their money to a Thai hooker, and is now practically living on the street, begging for money, and these are the people Thai want to get rid of.  These people do exist, but I would suggest they are on overstay and will have to be rounded up another way, because the 800k method will not move them on.     

2 hours ago, smedly said:

it will be interesting to see in 12 months time whether those that have used agents (not complying to the rules) will still be able to renew their extension - yes agents might take the money now (why not) but lets see where this ends up

 

A lot of people that comply with the law might be wondering - why

 

and why have immigration (this country) made it so difficult for those that do

 

we may see corruption in immigration laid bare - no place to hide it

I would not be surprised if those on the 800k / 400k method are given a hard time by immigration, on purpose, because they are not making and corrupt payment from them. 

 

In any case, I agree with you.  When one does the maths, and I have posted the maths in a previous post, those on the 800k / 400k method may very well be asking why am I going to so much trouble, and paying around 2500 baht more a month than the guys that just go and pay 20k baht to an agent, and receive the same visa, and they get to keep their money in the safety of they home country, earning around 6% to 8%, instead of moving that money to an unstable country, only earning 1.5%, with control on how they use of their own money. 

 

Is it possible, if agents are allowed to continue to operate, it can be win win for expats and immigration?  Expats get a cheaper and easier visa, and you retain control of your money, and immigration officers get rich on corrupt payments.

 

I don't condone corruption, but maybe all of this mess could end up in a positive result for the individuals involved, with the Thai banks missing out, therefore, to a degree, the Thai economy. 

28 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

These "numpties" know exactly what their objective is.

Those people "that spend a lot of money" will have no problem meeting the new requirements, then.

 

The bottom line is, is that we as foreigners have about as much influence as the small beetle crawling across my computer screen right now.

Meet the requirements, or leave. There is nothing else we can do.

Joe, I can see your argument, IF the agents were shut down, and this is why I immediately thought to my Plan B country when I read about the law changes.

 

However, IF the agents are allowed to continue operating, your argument goes out the window.

 

Should the agents, keep operating, we will see those using the 800k / 400k method pay around 2500 baht more a month to live here, than those who used an agent, for the same visa. with full access to their money, and no seasoning to comply with. It's then possible we may see people move from the 800k / 400k method to agents, as the agent method offers more flexibility for their finances, and is simply, cheaper.

 

Currently, the agents are operating as normal, and are probably getting more business now, so whist it is early days, they appear to have the approval of the immigration department to keep operating, for a fee, of course. 

 

Interesting times ahead.

11 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

You are right whether it's 1% or 2% interest on that ฿800K it's pretty worthless, so yeah invest in a couple of cows that would probably yield more, in a Thai context of course!

 

Oh but of course you cant. It has to be tied up in tht next to worthless bank account

Yes, and it makes for an expensive visa, when compared to nearby countries.