Thailand Outcast

11 minutes ago, SEtonal said:

Jomtien is asking to see a bank book at 90 day check-in from some applicants who received an extension on or after March 1, 2019.   That does not include you.  Your last extension was issued before March 1, 2019. 

 

This is why it will be interesting to see what happens late May / early June.  Especially for those who used an agent. 

4 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Me.  And you are correct.

Are you saying the amount is going to increase from 800k? 

 

I know it was mentioned by high ranking authorities, but I didn't read about and amounts, or deadlines, for this to come into effect.

7 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

On the contrary, these are new rules and only apply from March 2019. By definition, they don't apply to someone's first extension (other than the two month pre-seasoning), but the problem lies with the new and unprecedented post-seasoning rules. An applicant would be rejected for their 2020 extension if they failed to meet the 2019 post seasoning requirements, immigration has made this very clear.

Yes, this is also my interpretation of the new laws. 

9 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Sounds like you're not really understanding the problem. Agents in the past have always been a one stop shop - all they had to provide in return for their fee was your extension for the current year. This was accomplished via a bank transfer lasting no longer than a few hours and a waiving of seasoning requirements by special arrangement with immigration.

 

The new rules are way more dubious, and can't even be road tested until 2020 for someone using an agent now. If you spend 20k baht on an agent and obtain your 2019 extension, this doesn't mean you're good to go like you were in the past. You're now held hostage by the post seasoning requirements - the agent effectively has you over a barrel regarding your 2020 extension, and given the badly thought through rule changes, there's no clear way how they're going to be able to show 800k three months post-seasoning, plus 400k nine month residual balance. I can easily imagine a significant hike in second year fees for anyone using an agent for this year's extension. And even if they ultimately can't comply with the new immigration rules, the agents have got a better 2019 payday than in previous years. 

I understand the issue, and I am not arguing with you about it. 

 

However, 12 months can be a long time when it comes to visa laws in Thailand.  Just look how quick these new laws were implemented.

 

I don't agree the agent would hold me hostage, because I was all set to leave to my Plan B country.  Then, I discover it's business as usual for the agents, which surprised me. 

 

This is why I will be monitoring the use of agents, and particularly how they handle the 90 day reports, with some immigration offices asking to see a bank book balance.  Perhaps this may be another service they will offer, for a fee. 

 

You make it sound like the 800k method is safe, which I agree it is, but only safe from corruption, not safe from change.  What if in 2020 the requirement is raised to 1 million, or 1.5 million.  Surely there is a figure where the majority of foreigners will simply say it's not worth it. 

 

Then, even being completely legal, what if one had an emergency and used some of their 800k in the post renewal period, or went under the 400k, at any time during the year.  A completely legal visa holder many now have some big problems for next year's visa, or possibly have their visa revoked at a 90 day report, while the guy using an agent is fine.

 

It's a messy system, made purposely, to see corruption flourish.

 

I do see the point you are making, but only time will tell how all this will play out. 

16 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

No they don't !

Only a very few high ranked Immigration Officers can do so.

In a previous thread, someone even said that there was no officer of a rank high enough in Pattaya Immigration. He said these few officers were nearly all based in Bangkok. 

If that's the case, we are back to a legal visas, that has been illegally obtained.

 

I've never used an agent, but the practice has been going on for years, and I don't know of a single case where someone has been arrested for it.  

 

I agree it has more risk to it than the 800k method, but the 800k could become the 1 million method, or 1.5 million method in the future, and then even those cirrently on the 800k method would have to assess the risk using agents, versus the loss of earnings from a larger deposit in a Thai bank.    

16 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I think you're making too many assumptions.

A big X factor at this point is that no immigration official has announced anything about the legal consequences about being under the 800K during the post seasoning phase, and then under 400K after that. It could potentially be very severe. Or not. We don't know. If you participate in the corruption, you run the risk of facing those consequences. 

I agree.

 

This is currently the unknown for those using agents, and also an unknown for those that may have to dip into the 800k, post visa renewal, or the 400k at any point of the year.

 

It will be interesting to see how they deal with these cases.

 

16 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

The poster I was replying to reckoned that the Thai banks needed propping up. With your financial acumen, I assume you can make the connection now.
With regards to cheap loans, do you really think that the minor deposits of retired expats would have any impact on the banks’ liquidity?
I am not “giving” any Thai bank 400k. I am charging them to take care of it and in return, they are actually paying me for the privilege. My deposits in UBS earn me negative interest.
Pay agents all you want. Just realise that the no seasoning requirement is technically against the spirit of the law and that it could backfire at any time without any warning.


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So, while you are charging a Thai bank for for taking care of your money, it's costing you more for your visa than what you are charging the bank.  The 800k is not even keeping up with inflation. 

You say, "Right now I am here for 4 months."  I am just wondering how that is possible, unless you add another visa run to your list.

35 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Nope.

It is a brainer. 

You would be stuck using agents indefinitely then,

If the agent game changes, you would need to start over.

 

Sure, that was the traditional way of thinking, and the way I used to look at it as well. 

 

However, I have a funny feeling that the guys on the 800k method are in for a tough time in the future, done on purpose, by immigration staff, to push them towards agents, because it's so lucrative for immigration officers. 

 

Until recently, I never considered using an agent, and never had to.  Now, after these major visa law changes, which, on paper, appear to be designed to stop agents operating, the agents are still operating as normal. 

 

So, what does that tell you?  Agents are now more or less state sanctioned.  So I can't see the agent game changing anytime soon, because, if there was ever a time it was going to change, it would have been after these new changes came into effect. 

 

For all we know the whole game could change again.  800k goes to 1 million.  The 400k goes to 600k.  Who knows? 

37 minutes ago, Monkeyrobot said:

I thought the seasoning was to stop the agents, why would you keep 800K in the bank for 5 months & then not allow it to fall below 400K when you can go to an agent pay there fee & don’t have to worry about seasoning or money in the bank. I have done the right thing for the past 7 years and now get penalised for it. Maybe I will use an agent next renewal. 

Ahhh, but people will tell you the 800k method is the best method.  ????

 

I expect quite a few expats to move from the 800k method to using an agent.  It makes sense. 

11 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The visa is not illegal. Immigration officers have the right to waive the seasoning period if they so wish.

The money paid to them to do this is illegal, so, it would be the bribe giver and the bribe taker that are at legal risk.

As for the 800k borrowed for a day, this, too is not illegal. The visa recipient is in the clear.

Obviously, all this breaks the spirit of the law, but, it does not break the letter of the law.

Well, I didn't know they had the discretion to waive the seasoning period.

 

On that basis, what is all the debate about?  It's a no brainer.

 

45,900 baht for the 800k method.

 

versus

 

20,000 baht using an agent.

 

The same visa, both legal.

 

 

 

 

21 hours ago, Cat ji said:

Sorry, I don't get it, please spell it out for me.

The agents are arranging the 800k loans, for a matter of hours, to generate documents for the visas, then, the money is taken out of the expat's account, immediately. 

 

There are credible reports coming in that immigration offices want to see bank balances on the 90 day report. 

 

I will be monitoring what service the agents are offering for this. 

On 4/11/2019 at 4:18 AM, wilailuk said:

Occupied???

 

Thailand is a cheap whore, nothing else.  They slept with the US during the 60´s, sold out all national honor for that phony war next door, (did the same during WW2 with Japan, they ARE a rare breed, lying bastards) -  got a whole new country and infrastructure for that job, still does... CIA had/have waterboarding camps here, they fly in "terrorists" - and the Thai/Chinese elite mofu´s dont´care, they don´t care about anything, not you, not me, only money, they are Chinese you know?

 

So please don´t feel sorry for Thailand or the scumbags who rob, steal and f... this beautiful country, they don´t deserve any pity, only Karma will get them, sooner or later..

 

 

Whilst your post is not very politically correct, it is historically correct. 

 

They even think the can buy Karma here by "making merit." 

 

So, lie, cheat, steal, extort and bribe all week, but go to the temple on the weekend with your family, and it's all squared away with Buddha.   ????

5 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

You really think that Thai banks need Thb800k per retiree to remain solvent? I think you over estimate the financial benefits that expats bring to Thailand


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Who said anything about Thai banks and solvency? 

 

It's just a nice earner for them, by way of a Government guaranteed, forced, cheap loan by expats. 

 

Also, if you can't touch 400k of your 800k, perpetually, you are basically giving a Thai bank your 400k.  This part of the new laws took "seasoning" to a whole new level.

 

What's next?  The 800k can't be touched forever? 

30 minutes ago, WeekendRaider said:

The idea we should all have a “plan B” makes sense and I also thought of this after having problems this year.  But didn’t do one.  Doing such a plan at all seriously could not help but change the way we think of our lives here in a way that is not positive.  Thailand needs to really revamp this whole thing.  This whole saga is bad for everyone.

Thailand will not change, so you have to change.

 

"Failing to plan is planning to fail." 

20 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I guess if 800k represents 80% of your total wealth, then you would understandably want to put it to work and maximise your return.
But if it only constitutes 10% of my wealth, then I’m more than happy to put it into a FD paying me 2.4% pa as I’m a firm believer in having a diversified portfolio which includes cash in bank.
So essentially, the Thai visa only costs me Thb1,900 pa and with my saved agent fees of 15-20k, I can treat myself to quite a few sumptuous meals.


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You can easily get 6% to 8% in a non aggressive fund.

 

You are ripping yourself off.

 

See Post 226 for the figures. 

1 hour ago, mlkik said:

No it is very cheap , 1900 baht per year. And the money in the account is a good back up for unexpected medical problems and reasurrance that I do not have to worry about my future.

 

Cut and pasted from a post of mine in another thread. 

 

The figures speak for themselves.  It's basically a 45,900 baht a year visa, and you lose control of your money.  

 

Also, the money in your account is not for emergencies.  It is not back up.  You can only use 400k of it for 5 months of the year, or you don't get next year's visa. 

 

 

Firstly, the 800k is tied up for 5 months.  400k is tied up forever.  Of course, you can withdraw any or all of it, but you will not receive next year's visa, so that's as good as 400k you will never see again, for as long as you wish to live in Thailand. 

 

You will get between 6% to 8% return if your 800k is in a diversified, non aggressive, managed fund, in your home country.  Let's just pick the average of 7% for this example.

 

You get 1.5% from a Thai bank for your 800k.

 

Here's the maths.

 

800,000 baht x 7% = 56,000 baht per year.  (return from a fund)

 

800,000 baht x 1.5% = 12,000 baht per year.  (return from a Thai bank)

 

56,000 baht - 12,000 baht = 44,000 baht.  (this is what you are forced to "lose" under the 800k method)

 

44,000 baht + 1900 baht (visa fee) = 45,900 baht.  (this is the total cost to an expat using the 800k method, and they have lost the use of their money through seasoning and have to deal with all the paperwork)

 

45,900 baht / 12 months = 3.825 baht. (visa cost per month to live in Thailand under the 800k method)

 

versus

 

20,000 baht / 12 = 1,666 baht.  (visa cost per month to live in Thailand if you use an agent, and there is no seasoning to worry about, and you maintain control of your finances, which are left in a safe western country, and no paperwork to do)

 

3,825 baht - 1,666 baht = 2,159 baht.  This is the extra cost to people using the 800k method, or, what people using the agents save, per month.

 

Remember, we are talking about the same "product."  Not an inferior visa class.  

 

Of course, there are other issues to think about, like how your beneficiaries get the money if it's in a Thai bank etc, but the above shows the loss / savings over one method versus the other method.

 

I am lucky, I have some time to sit back and see what happens after the 90 days, with those who have used an agent. 

 

To sum up, the 800k runs at a continual loss for the expat, as it doesn't even keep up with inflation.  

 

You say I don't see the 20,000 baht ever again, but you don't see the 44,000 baht in losses, that you will never earn each year, from being forced to lodge 800k into a Thai bank, at 1.5%, with 400k of it you can never use again.    

 

Now, compare the 800k method to the visas offered in nearby countries, and you can see what a lousy deal this is.   

4 hours ago, problemfarang said:

 

i kind of not agree with you. A person who keep coming to the county with any kind of tourist visa is... not normal. common. He might be working here.. or any other things! IO duty is to protect his/her country. and imagine ppl get a new passport to get into the country... this makes more sense to me why IO denying. 

Plus getting a visa and having a visa means nothing. IO officer at the border has the full right to stop you.

In the past, a lot of offshore oil rig workers would come to Thailand.  1 month on the rig, 1 month off.  They would come to Thailand for their month off, and had serious money to spend, especially since they had not seen any alcohol or women for 1 month.  These guys are all but gone now, because of Thailand's visa laws.

 

Then, there were miners, many from Australia.  3 weeks in the mine, 2 weeks off, or similar.  Same thing, no alcohol or women, and big money to spend.  All but gone also. 

 

These are just two examples, there are many more, like short term contract workers, people who own businesses in their home country etc. 

 

You think along the same lines as immigration staff, and it is wrong.

 

Just because someone comes to Thailand regularly, doesn't mean they must be working illegally. 

8 hours ago, jacko45k said:

That is chalk and cheese. 

Moving 800,000 to Thailand plus living expenses is far removed from moving every penny/cent one has unless it really is all one has. It is very much a burning of the bridges and absolute folly. We are all on temporary 1 year residences. 

I don't see it as chalk and cheese.

 

I see the 800k as part of my wealth, in it's entirety, not something that I can be forced to pay, because it's not a large part of my overall wealth.  I treat the 800k as I would treat 8 million, and make sure both are put to work for me.  Thai banks will not get a free ride off me.  

 

A bad deal is a bad deal.  Simple as that.   

 

However, you do raise a good question.  You have said someone should not move the 800k to Thailand, if that is their life savings.  What if it was 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, etc etc of their life saving?

 

At what percent would you advise not moving the 800k to Thailand of the sole purpose of getting a visa?

 

 

30 minutes ago, mlkik said:

My point is keeping money in a bank in Thailand or the UK the interest rate return is about the same,so I keep it here to enable me to obtain my annual extension without any worries.

People who keep their money in banks here are no worse off than keeping it in a bank in their country of origin.

Makes for an expensive visa. 

13 minutes ago, Peasandmash said:

A lot of stuff here.

I try to keep it all in perspective. And to be honest it can be challenging at times.

It's one day a year I go to immigration. Maybe more if I want a certificate or leave the country, etc.

800k baht.. Is it a lot of money? I'm grateful for what I have, I know there are many that have far less.

Life presents situations that can be perceived as problems no matter where I live or what I have. Why should I use my energy to focus on these few things instead of the many things I do have. My health, enjoying the beautiful and tolerant Thai people and their wonderful country. Being able to actually see the air that I breath ????, etc, etc...

Best Wishes..

Sa wa dii pii mai

 

It would be great of some of that Thai tolerance would be shown by authorities here, but if they can't show tolerance, I would settle for some common sense.  ????

 

I don't like to see the air I breath, because if I can actually see it, then it's more than air I am breathing in.  ????

3 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

And how much for the cost of your lawyer and your deportation if ever caught for this extension illegally obtained ? 

I take your point.

 

I have never used an agent before.  Never needed to.  I was on the 65k method, and genuinely have over 65k a month income. 

 

It always surprised me the practice of a loan for 800k baht for a few hours was allowed to continue over the years, and whilst I saw the visa as being corruptly obtained, I never saw the visa itself as being illegal, as in, it was the exact same visa as someone with a seasoned 800k baht in the bank, not some type of forgery.   

 

The agents have been operating for years, and I have never heard of a case of an expat being arrested and deported for a visa obtained in this way. If you have, please post a link.

 

I truly thought the new laws would see the agents shut down, but they are operating as normal.  This leads me to believe the use of an agent is more or less state sanctioned, so I would find it hard to believe they would be deemed as "illegal visas" by the immigration department that actually issued them.  If this was to happen, wouldn't the immigration staff also be arrested for issuing them?  I doubt either would happen.  

 

Just on this point, we are yet to discover the fate of people who go under their 400k.  Do you think they will be arrested and deported?  Will they need a lawyer if detained at a 90 day report, showing their bank balance under 400k baht?  After all, they have breached a condition of their visas, that their bank balance never goes under 400k. 

 

Such a messy system, in such a corrupt country.  Amazing Thailand.  ????