Thailand Outcast

1 hour ago, 55Jay said:

But you should stop and consider the things you are saying may not be an astounding revelation to others.  800k is the cost of doing business in this particular sweaty armpit of SE Asia.   It is what it is.

 

Good luck in Vietnam.  When are you leaving?

800k isn't the cost of doing business here.  It's what the Thai's think farang are prepared to pay.  Wait till it goes to 1 million, or 1.2 million. 

i didn't pay it then, and I'm not going to pay it now, and I will not be paying it in the future.

I was on the 65k method.  When that method stopped for me, I thought for sure all the dodgy agents "loaning" 800k for a few hours would have to cease, but no, this is Thailand, and it is appearing more and more that the new laws were designed to push expats onto dodgy agents, for corrupt financial gain of the immigration department, and their agent partners.

So, if the use of these dodgy agents are basically going to be state sanctioned, I will not be leaving. 

I'll have the same visa as someone on the 800k / 400k method, but I will be paying about 4000 baht less a month less for it, and I'll be able to use my money as I please, and I will not have to worry about seasoning time periods and paperwork, and dealing with immigration officers.

So, if this is the case, tell me why anyone would use the 800k / 400k method?  Why pay more for the same?  Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up giving the 800k / 400k guys a hard time, because immigration officers don't make any money out of them. 

if the agents get shut down, it's Vietnam 6 months and Thailand 6 months on tourist visas.   Either way, the Thai government doesn't get to tell me what I will do with my money, just to stay in Thailand 6 months more of a year. 

1 minute ago, Snow Leopard said:

Sounds like you know a lot. 

No.  Just your average guy that can see through Thai BS. 

If you are working outside Thailand, how long are you actually in Thailand for? 

You may be better off on different visa. 

7 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

You make a good point.

 

You might still have to be prepared for a few weeks detention in BKK.

 

A Swedish acquaintance of mine was arrested for overstay in Buriram.

 

Now it wasn't for the lack of money, but he spent 2 weeks in detention before his ass was finally on a plane back to Stockholm

 

Well, the detention center guards had to make some money of of him first. Right?  ????

2 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

There is more than one way to skin a cat as always. The problem is this. People who are already living in Thailand and those that are thinking of living in Thailand in the future. I feel sympathy for the ones already trapped due to stupid rule changes but the one coming in has clear sight of their options going forward. 

Firstly, with rules like this, I doubt Thailand will be attracting the next generation of retirees in the number that it did before, not to mention the strong baht.

Then, there is no "clear sight" for anyone because the goal posts can be changed at any time, as we saw with the fast pace of change with these new visa laws. 

1 hour ago, bazzer said:

My son has been told he will be taken to Prauchup on Tuesday, does anyone know of this place.

 

Can I ask, how are you receiving this information? 

14 minutes ago, arithai12 said:

Thanks for your little lesson on arithmetics, we really had no idea.

You would be surprised how many don't.  ????

16 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

Never been to Cambodia or Vietnam.  No desire to ever go or live there either. 

 

I never said Thailand was a good deal.

 

You have options.  Exercise your prerogative. 

You have options also, so I suggest you explore a Plan B.

If you have never been to these places, how do you know what they are like, thus, how can you say you have no desire to see them or live there?

9 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

You don't have enough money to afford a Thai retirement visa.  It costs $259 per month to borrow 25 grand for 10 years.

Who's talking about borrowing?

I have the money.  This is just a lousy deal.

I was on the 65k method, and could prove I had more than 65k income a month.

I'll consider using a dodgy agent, or spend 6 months in Vietnam, and 6 months in Thailand on tourist visas.

Geez.  If a bar girl tells you the family's buffalo is sick, you'd laugh.  If the Thai government say you have to season 800k longer, and 400k is untouched forever, most say, "Ok."  Just like sheep. 

19 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Figure how much money you made extra?  Interest  on 25 grand and currency drop of the pound.  You tell me?  it's peanuts.  Or a couple of bottles of wine.  People who don't have an extra 25 to dump in an interest bearing bank account are not investment guru's.  Just another way of saying I don't like Thailand. 

Since when were we talking solely about the GBP?

16 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

If you are actually getting 6-8% these days after all the deductions and fees then you are doing well. I don't think it would be that high over say 10 years. Anyway, I get your point. 

 

I am currently on the income method because I work outside Thailand. This whole fiasco has made me rethink the best solution for me. 

Not supposed to have a retirement visa if still working.  

I'm getting 6% to 8%.  No problem at all, and non aggressive. 

In loses from not being able to use your 800k baht elsewhere, it's costing someone on the 800k / 400k method around 4000 baht more a month than someone using the dodgy agent method, given an agent charges 20,000 baht.

If the agents are allowed to operate under the new laws, those on the 800k / 400k method will be paying 4000 baht a month more for the same product, a retirement visa, and they can never touch 400k of their own money, even after the 800k has been seasoned. 

You would never accept a deal like this buying a property, car, business etc.  For me, it's the same.  A Thai visa is just another commodity. 

7 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

I know you don't really mean that.  You don't lose the fenced off 400k, it's still yours. 

 

Reckon it would cost me about that much more for the privledge of living in Kalifornia -3 layers of taxes apart from Federal/FICA, and the various insurances deemed necessary if you want to drive a car, or get sued for a traffic accident, or you have a medical problem.  400k ain't shit.

 

The 400k is "fenced off" or you don't get the next visa, and it's possible your current visa gets revoked at your 90 day report, because some immigration offices are requiring you show your bank book at the report. 

Now, if you're American, as it sounds you are, compare what hoops Thailand want you to jump through, and what they make you pay to jump through those hoops, to Cambodia with their $300USD 1 year multi entry visa, and Vietnam, with their $185USD 1 year multi entry visa for US citizens.

Here's one from the first page of Google for Vietnam.

https://www.myvietnamvisa.com/vietnam-visa-cost.html

Now, do you still want to tell me what a good deal Thailand is giving you, so you are "allowed"  to spend money in their economy?  ????

3 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

The currency appreciation.  Didn't think about that?  2% interest and 50% currency appreciation.  ????

Got to be able to "use" your money, then be able to get your money out of Thailand, then convert it, to see those gains.  

4 hours ago, CanuckThai said:

No argument, but that is part of the point.  Who in their right mind (back in our home countries), would park the equivalent of 800K baht in a bank, to basically lose against annual inflation?   No significant gain, no tax incentive, nada.   A reasonable investment (or brokerage) can almost guarantee a safe X points above inflation or X% over interest rates at a bank...

 

An annual burning of 20 baht bills for a humdinger of a bbq, would give a better roi than parking 800k here.

True.  It's a lousy deal.

That's why I never did it a few years ago, and why I will not do it now, despite some manipulation to force me do so.

47 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

If you rent a home and have to pay a deposit you can't spend your money aswell.

Do you rent a home in Thailand that requires a 800k deposit?  ????

3 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

It doesn't make any difference keeping 800K in a Thai Bank or any bank outside Thailand. Central and Commercial Banks will devalue it to Zero in the end anyway. 

A balanced, and well managed, non aggressive fund, will return about 6% to 8%. 

Factor those losses into the cost of your visa, by keeping 800k in a Thai bank. 

What do you think the Thai banks do with your 800k?

Just now, 55Jay said:

Matter of perspective as well.  There are some farangs here who don't consider 800k as being a lot of money. 

Matter of principle as well.

Since when did The Thai government, and Thai banks, become a charity that should be donated to?

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

A good way to lose in the long term.

Wherever you are, banks pay 1-2% interest. They then lend it out at 6-7%.

Let's say you have funds on deposit in Australia, current interest rate 1.5%. As income, it is then taxed say at 30%. Your real rate of return is then 1% pa.

At an annual inflation rate of 3%, your capital is being chewed up at a rate of 2% per year.

In Thailand, we are forced to keep 800,000 baht on deposit. It is what it is.

IMHO anyone who keeps more than living expenses on deposit with a bank is financially illiterate.

I agree. 

That's why the 800k / 400k untouched is such a lousy deal.

Now, if the "visa agents" are allowed to keep operating, despite the new laws, "Who really suffers" with be those using the 800k / 400k method, who will be roughly paying 4000 baht more, for the same product. (visa)

Not to mention, they basically can not use 400k of their own money, forever.

Then, there is the stress of seasoning, paperwork, bank letters, fronting immigration etc etc. 

As you rightly point out, the 800k method runs at a financial loss for the expat, and sure does make for an expensive visa.  

19 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

 

Sorry, don't see it that way at all. There's been lots of threads about western importance monetarily to Thailand over the years and the evidence I saw  just doesn't support that view. Especially when you consider how diluted so many currencies have become, I think many people here are just scrambling to make ends meet rather than contributing to Thailand's economy (re investment). As far as employment in the tourism sector, Chinese two weekers and a host of other Asian nations will keep that industry alive forever. I also feel that just because we don't read a lot about significant criminality here perpetrated by westerners, doesn't mean it isn't occurring. Due to poor wages corruptibility is easily accomplished enabling a lot of scumbags to act with impunity and invisibility. I do believe, after spending the best part of 16yrs here, that there is some progress being made regards to that.      

I can't see Mr. Wong from China, or Mr. Sergei from Russia, or Mr. Patel from India, who come here on a package holiday, retiring in Thailand in the future. 

By losing the western tourist market, and making it harder for western expats to live here, Thailand isn't advertising itself to the next generation of retires coming through. 

Just think what that will do to the property market, and vehicle market here, just to name two sectors, and these sectors don't involve 300 baht a day minimum wage staff in the hospitality industry. 

16 hours ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

How many foreigners live here on tourist visas? thousands? even tens of thousands? Do the math - assuming they travel once every couple of months and there's 10,000 of them - that's only 166 people a day, spread over multiple land borders. Hardly huge queues.

 

Personally I'm going to keep flying in until (if) I ever get denied. If it gets to the point where I have to resort to ridiculous measures like crossing land borders to be able to enter the country then I'll probably just leave.

If you read the forum, there are "good" boarder crossings and "bad" boarder crossings.

How long before the "thousands" all start flocking to the "good" boarder crossings? 

There's already a 2 week wait for a visa application in the Vientiane Embassy. 

Even using your numbers of 166 per day, IF they were spread out, with a 2 week wait, you would already be 1661th in the queue at that Embassy, with more and more coming off the 65k method every day.   (166 x 10 business day) 

You may have to start seriously looking at your Plan B. 

21 hours ago, BritTim said:

Nothing, and if you qualify for entry, you should be admitted. As a practical matter, someone denied entry at, say, Poipet/Aran, is likely to be successful entering Thailand four hours later at Ban Laem.

 

Why do you feel people should be prevented from trying to enter Thailand for some specified period just because an immigration official (perhaps for dubious reasons) decided to deny entry on a different day?

I don't feel people should be prevented from trying to enter Thailand at a different board. All the boarders should be the same. 

You are either allowed in at all of them, or refused at all of them, and a stamp in your passport to the effect, "No entry for 30 days" for example. 

At least everyone would know where they stand. 

10 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

The problem is that even the agents can't guarantee that they'll be able to come up with the goods. The loophole in the past was very easy, involving only obtaining an extension for the current year and you were good to go. But since the new (unprecedented) rule was introduced where you can be denied an extension based on whether you complied with the post seasoning rules on the previous year's extension, no one knows how this will pan out, as it can't even be field-tested until next year. For sure, an agent can take your money at the new rate, provide you with a current extension, a wide grin and an assurance of "no problem next year", but they themselves can't guarantee this, or be clear about what kind of evidence immigration will want to see and whether they'll be able to provide it. 

I take your point, but 12 months is a long time in Thailand, especially when it comes to visa laws, and their wide interpretation between different immigration offices, and officers. I tend to not look past 1 month here, because that's how quick things can change.  ????

Look how quick these new laws were implemented.

If the agents operating as usual now, it might be best to use them, and worry about next year's visa, next year.  By then, who knows what laws will be in place.  ????

8 minutes ago, Cranky said:

One of the many reasons I Foxtrot Oscared.  Processes, laws and all the other stuff I could live with, didn't really care that much as long as the 'to-do' list was reasonable and understandable.  TIT, deal with it, which I did.

 

However, Being made to feel as welcome as the proverbial fart in a spacesuit and the unknown every time is the bit I could not live with any longer, especially as one ages with no sign of it ever getting easier or as suggested some form of loyalty miles; after 20 odd years, house, cars, business, wife, kids blah blah blah with as many rights, and the same treatment, as Mr. Tattoo that just turned up with a few quid meant enough is enough.  Bye Bye......

Where did you go?

24 minutes ago, malibukid said:

what interest do the Thai banks charge?

You'll get about 1.5% on your 800k. 

Here's Kasikorn. 

https://kasikornbank.com/en/rate