Sunmaster

1 hour ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

So you have to experience the truth direct. At the risk of repeating myself, on that basis, the best shot at honesty is to pare away all ideas of the religious and spiritual, be it karma or reincarnation or a spiritual plane or any concept of god, since our best opportunity at learning about ourselves comes from one thing. The human body. 

Yes, the truth in a direct manner.
And yes, the human body is a great tool for truth finding, if you know how to use it. When you start to listen within, any kind of concept is a barrier, be it spiritual or materialistic. Concepts are mental constructs. When you listen within however, the goal is to shake off such concepts, like onion skins. And then you work yourself inwards, towards the heart of it, peeling off layers as you go. Just ask yourself: Who am I? Are you the body? Are you the mind? Your feelings and emotions? Your memories? Your name? Layer after discarded layer, you become lighter, more free, more yourself. So you continue as far as you can go. 
The onion skins closest to the heart are the most stubborn. They've been there for a long time. They were put there when we were very young. 
But once those have been peeled off too, what is left?? Who were you before you were given a name? 
You could call it "the heart of the onion", or "Divine Onion" or "The Onioness" or many other cool names.

1 hour ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

You can draw conclusions about what experiences and thoughts and feelings say about your body and mind, to a much higher degree, than about what you can conclude about outside your body. 

In that sense, though some ideas about god or spirituality may seem to fit better than others, such concepts are much more distant from what can be known, as they are a step beyond our feelings thoughts and senses.

I wouldn't say that they are beyond our senses at all. It depends on which senses you're talking about. The internal senses are very adequate to know the inner world. That's their job. And it's not distant at all. How far are you from you?

1 hour ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Therefore as much as belief is tempting there must be doubt. The doubt is lessened if we focus on the mind and body and not the concepts of god and spirit. 

No need to take on a complete belief system. The only thing you need is a healthy curiosity to find out if there is more to you than what you've been told. What is there to believe? Nothing. Believing is replaced by knowing. What do you have to lose?
We are made of 3 fundamental parts (or onion layers): body, mind and spirit. Leaving any one of them out would only increase the doubt, because you would be trying to hide something... to yourself. And that won't work to your advantage.

12 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

You would need to be careful in the interpretation of that experience, and what it left you with, in terms of knowledge and belief and differentiating between the two. 

I let that run through my mind...
I think that's an excellent question that we should all ask ourselves. 

It's human nature to add items to whatever framework we are working with. How much of what is in that framework comes from your own experience and how much derives from other sources? What are the conditions for those other sources to be accepted in your framework? 

For me, there must be a degree of trust, and trust has to be earned. I think it's safe to say that we all have some beliefs that are based on info from the outside. People usually don't go to verify the math behind gravitational attraction. They trust that the source has done its homework and that the results are valid. 

The same goes for more metaphysical data. Take Paramhansa Yogananda for example. Throughout his life he was consistent between what he said and what he did. No students abuse, no sexual misconduct, no amassing of luxury goods or power. All he ever did was to point out the divine within each of us and give practical tools on how to reconnect with it. What he said about the divine matched my own experience, but went a lot further than that. Given that condition (info consistent with my framework) and trust in the source (judged by actions rather than words), the info that goes beyond my personal experience was adopted safely in the framework as well. 

The biggest problem I see, is that some may not have the discerning tools to evaluate whether a source is reliable or not. They go by overall consensus. "Most people say it's like that, so it's probably true". Info gets added to the framework unchecked.

And this is exactly what my main point has been in the past years on this forum. From the very beginning I pointed out that true knowledge comes from the inside. You can read a million self-help books or holy books and it won't change you much. Yet, one instant of deep insight can change everything. 

Practice is the key to reconnect with your inner world. 
Practice strengthens and expands the framework.

Practice is the fuel that powers the BS detector.
Practice is transformative.
Practice is the key to go from believing to knowing.
Practice is the Antivirus in the USB drive.

 

2 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Thanks. I quite like that explanation. In a sense it is like you are saying that you felt or sensed what something better or more real felt like, and then you could use that as a guide, so when you read interpretations of spirituality, or other stuff, you could see if is consistent with that experience and if it fits in your new frame of reference or not.

You would need to be careful in the interpretation of that experience, and what it left you with, in terms of knowledge and belief and differentiating between the two. 

 

 

YES! That's exactly what it is. You described it very well, in fact better than I did. ????

I will give your warning some thought. ????

29 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

You may have had experiences to help you believe there is a god. But did your experiences telegraph the reality you describe? It could be you have linked your experiences to a particular belief system and decided that you'll go with the whole package.

I will answer this one because it's about my personal experience.
I had that one major experience which was responsible for changing everything. For several months afterwards I was ecstatic and "blissed out". But I was also <deleted> off, because I wanted to know why nobody had ever told me about this. How come this wasn't taught at school? How come nobody even knows about it? The world would be so much better if this were common knowledge and practiced daily.

I can describe the experience like this....

By surrendering to what wanted to rise up (kundalini), I offered my ego to be obliterated. That construction we call our identity, fell in one big swoop and allowed the kundalini to rise unobstructed through my whole body. Once it reached my head, there was an explosion of light and I had a clarity about myself and the workings of the world that I never even suspected were possible at all.
It was like when you have a USB drive with a lot of junk on it. The kundalini formatted that drive and this allowed it to be filled with a lot more useful and truthful data. 

Now you're right when you doubt that the things I mentioned in the previous post all came from that one experience. They didn't. The experience created a new framework. One which must include everything (the good, the bad, the ugly, science, religion, spirituality and everything in between). If even one aspect of reality doesn't fit this "theory of everything", then that means the theory is not complete. Notice how this is usually the other way around, "This idea doesn't fit my belief system, therefore it must be false."
So then, this framework was created on the ruins of the old one. From here on, I did my own research, reading everything I could get my hands on. The money I spent on books! No internet at that time. Everything I learned found its place in this new framework. 

To answer your question: Yes, a lot of data was downloaded to my "USB drive". This data alone dispensed with the need to believe once and for all. I don't endorse any one single belief system in particular, but try to find the gems of truth in all of them. That's why I can easily jump from talking about scientific consciousness research to meditation, or from physics to mysticism, and I see no contradictions whatsoever. 

Wow, that was a long one. Tippaporn must have infected me with his writing style virus. Yes, I blame him.
 

4 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

The faith is strong in this one. It is appreciated that you had a go to answer this.

 

You may have had experiences to help you believe there is a god. But did your experiences telegraph the reality you describe? It could be you have linked your experiences to a particular belief system and decided that you'll go with the whole package.

 

What happened in the universe to make individual spirits exist, and be created imperfect and have so much to learn, and in what sense does each spirit agree to go through the life they go through. 

Does that mean the evolved being feels nothing when people die, when anything happens, as it was part of a learning experience. If they do feel sadness then why.

 

Do I and the parents really learn something useful if I die a day after birth. What was going on for the millions of years there was no life - was that when spirits were being created. From what and how and why. 

So someone is tortured for 30 years in a basement and you say it is a kind god and he is helping you to learn from this and the future will be better because of this learning?  Surely many experiences do more unlearning and damage than good. Therefore is there an antigod. 

They are tough issues but I guess I would want to have these sort of answers  if I was to say I believe something. Otherwise I might say I had some experiences that indicate there is a god but beyond that not sure. 

 

These are a lot of good questions and you're right to ask them. 

I could try to answer them, but the problem is it won't make much of a difference to you. For you, they will be empty words because you don't have a reference point to validate them.

The first step is asking them. The next step is listening. Not necessarily to what I or others have to say about them, but to what comes from your inside. That way the answers will have their own validity.

But to do that effectively, you need to learn to trust those inner hints. 

Jesus supposedly said "the kingdom of heaven is inside of you". This just means that your inner world is the gateway to this higher state of consciousness. All the answers lie within. Know thyself and you'll know God. 

See how everything points in the same direction? 

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

In that case, God has a screwed up sense of humor, giving people/kids, even born with cancer.  

 

That's where I can't believe.   Aside from from everything else.

You see it as a contradiction, but it's not.

Life is full of seemingly unfair situations, children with cancer being one, but also the rich and powerful who get away with things that poor people can't, the sh!t that happens to you despite your best efforts, "it's always the best of us who die young", diseases that befall nice people and so on. 

But contradictions are only such when you look at them from the perspective where they were created. If you look at them from a higher perspective, you would be able to integrate them in a wider framework. 

In the case above, this would mean a situation where the idea of a benevolent higher power AND sick children can coexist at the same time and are not mutually exclusive. 

How is that possible? 

The higher perspective tells me that life is a dream-like scenario. Buddhists call it samsara (illusion), Shakespeare called it a stage, where we are the actors.

What do we do on this dreamlike stage?

We slip into a body (play a role) to act out certain scenarios, from which we are supposed to learn something. Through us and our experiences, God can experience itself.

What could a sick child learn from cancer? Maybe compassion for other suffering creatures. Maybe they agreed to this scenario to teach those around them about compassion. Maybe something else...

The point is that each and everyone of us agreed to be here. Nothing happens by chance. There are no victims of circumstances. 

This life is just a blink of an eye for the eternal soul, and from the perspective of the soul, even the hardest life will appear like a fleeting dream. 

The way I see it, there's no contradiction.

@Elad

https://nowdictation.com/q/Time/

40 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

sunmaster, check this dude out.

you might find this interesting.

he's apparently using "scientific methodology". lol

 

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/who-we-are/history-of-dops/dr-ian-stevenson/

Dr. Ian Stevenson founded the Division of Perceptual Studies in 1967. 

Dr. Stevenson established the Division in order to conduct research in which scientific methodology is utilized to empirically investigate phenomena which cannot be explained by the currently accepted scientific assumptions and theories about the nature of mind or consciousness, and its relationship to matter. Examples of such phenomena, sometimes called paranormal, include various types of extrasensory perception (such as telepathy), apparitions and deathbed visions,  after-death communications or ADCs, poltergeists, experiences of persons who come close to death and survive (usually called near-death experiences or NDEs), out-of-body experiences (OBEs), and children’s memories of previous lives.

Yes, I read a book about him a long time ago. Good stuff.

4 hours ago, Elad said:

I'm a bit of a materialist ????

That's ok. Nobody is perfect. ????

2 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

They seem to say it can happen from taking drugs too. Hard to comment on something I haven't experienced. A bit suspicious of things that cause such a big reaction. It either means you are opening things up and it's a good thing or you are holding something back, akin to holding or limiting your breath, and causing the brain to react in an extreme way. 

That's correct.

Drugs as in "entheogenic substances" or "consciousness expanding plants" can help, but there is absolutely no guarantee that they will actually release the kundalini. 

In whichever way she is released, the essence of the K remains the same. 

5 hours ago, save the frogs said:

FYI: 

A girl once give me a book called "The Five Tibetans". 

It's yoga from Tibet designed to 'raise the Kundalini.' 

Never did the exercises.

But later I read that there are some 'dangers' with 'raising the kundalini'.

But I really never looked into it much.

Watch out with that stuff. Make sure you know what you're doing. 

Sounds like it could turn into a "bad acid trip". 

 

Yes, it's true that not everyone experiences it the way I did. I could have gone into panic mode and had a bad trip, but I surrendered to it and had the most amazing time of my life.

This was a one time thing for me though. Not that I didn't want it, but it has a mind of its own...or "her" own as she's female energy.

I don't believe in those who claim they can "activate the kundalini in 5 easy and fast steps". That's marketing BS to sell books or workshops. 

The negative effects are mostly due to the unwillingness of people to let go. For a full k awakening the "death" of the ego is a must. That is the scariest part of the experience. If you can't let go of the ego, you will block and fight the k from fully rising. That in turn creates a very frightening scenario...the fear of dying. 

But let's put it into perspective. 

Negative experiences can happen, but are quite rare. K doesn't create them. We create them by resisting its flow.

The positive experiences far outweigh the negative ones and to that I can attest personally. 

Aren't we all getting a bit lost in unimportant details here?

I offered my personal story (about the kundalini awakening, see Tummo Shaktipat below) to the materialists to see if they could come up with any kind of material explanation. But apart from Woof999's reply, nothing. What happened to me could happen to anyone of you at any time. How would you react to it? Would you still stick to science?

You've been asking for practical examples and evidence. Here it is. Are you just going to pretend not to see it?

Quick summary:
As an atheist, I had no knowledge of or even interest in spirituality. Even spiritual individuals rarely ever hear about the kundalini. So, zero chance to have fed my brain with any kind of subconscious suggestions. Yet there I was, fully blown away by that experience of cosmic unity, deep love and knowledge. No idea what just happened but so so deeply grateful and blessed that it did. 
AFTERWARDS, I learned what it was and that it had a name (kundalini) and amazingly, the stories from other people's experiences coincided with mine to a degree that categorically excludes mere coincidence. 

How, in scientific terms, is that possible? 
If the science is strong in you, young materialists, then you must surely be able to come up with a valid theory.

4 hours ago, save the frogs said:

the God peeps are a funny bunch.

They are mere amateurs compared to you. ????

17 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

If you read my post more carefully, I explained everything.

But I'll stop interfering.

Probably me posting here too much is preventing other people from posting.

 

Yes, channeling exists.

Chakras are real, too man!

I know because I had a Reiki practitioner mess with my solar plexus chakra.

Most painful experience ever!.

 

 No no please. Stay.

I'll reply properly once I recover from this laughing fit.

2 hours ago, save the frogs said:

can't really remember. it's been way too long.

decades.

Hold on. So you're telling me that after all your temper tantrums, you actually believe that channeling is real?

You're just pulling my leg, right? Right?

@Elad

Have you thought about the questions I asked? 

1 minute ago, Elad said:

Its just a common joke among scientists. Of course physics works, you only have to look at all the technology around you to know that.

I doubt he meant you..  ????

30 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Really now? ????

What were they channeling exactly? 

Come on @save the frogs, don't let me hanging. This is going to be good.

45 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

what are you planning to do with all these dimensions?

Well, world domination of course, across all possible dimensions. What else? 

43 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

i'd like to suggest that your view on "spirituality" is narrow-minded

And how exactly are you qualified to judge me on my view of spirituality. Prey tell. I'm all ears.

37 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

however, there seems to be an unhealthy obsession by the regular posters on this thread to hate on science.

and to turn this into a spirituality vs science boxing match. 

No such thing. All of us here value science, but we don't believe science has the answers to our questions. We have said this many times already.

The boxing match only starts when people (like you) insist that science is the only judge of what is real and what is not.

34 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

channeling absolutely exists.

Really now? ????

What were they channeling exactly? 

6 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Similar to yourself in many ways.

 

In our youth and childhood we are open to all sorts of ideas with proof no more than an elder or perhaps even a peer telling us it is so. I, like many, was forced to attend church in my youth. I disliked it for most of the reasons that others do. It was a chore. It was older people talking about things that meant little or nothing to me, singing ridiculous songs (some quite catchy) with words that were wishy washy and adoring of something that I felt shouldn't be adored without question, that contradicted much of what I saw in life. However, I was afraid of this God that was all powerful, was judgmental and would hold me to account and damn me forever if I did not accept him.

 

Only a little later in life I opened my eyes to the evil that was the religious god. How evil, bitter and spiteful that god must be. How sheeplike his followers were. How easy it was for them to fully embrace the god of the gaps. Some would be so stupid to speak trash such as "so if you do not believe in the bible, then how do you know not to kill?". Anybody that cannot see the hypocrisy of that statement and utter blinkered view, to think for one moment that the bible is the only point of reference that is able to tell me right from wrong, while at the same time telling fairy tales of god doing the exact opposite. The bible and religious gods are, in my view, perhaps the worst concoctions in human history.

 

However I believe that you and many others here are no more religious than me, so away with Noah, Adam, Eve, the resurrection and everything else related.

 

In my youth and throughout my 20s I experienced many things that others don't usually at such an age (certainly not to the extent in my life). The death of family, the death of others very close to me, the betrayal of those in a position of trust. I also experienced huge positives... doing wrong and coming clean to those that might have cast me aside, but believed in me, saw through the errors to someone with ability and potential, those that nudged me in the right direction and directed my energies to places that would really make a difference.

 

I also had 2 very near death experiences, 3 if I include cancer that could easily have ended me. These all occurred at an age where I was open to all sorts of possibilities. I saw that in my youth I and most others believed in our immortality, lived live only day by day, were happy in the rat race, doing the same things as everyone else in the hope of getting the same (lame) rewards as everyone else. I wanted more. I was old enough and wise enough to realise that there was much more to life, that I should look past what is only physical, should embrace the possibility of there being other ways to live a full life, to be open minded enough to consider almost anything.

 

That in turn created a huge shift in my own mindset. It didn't change everything I thought it might change... I actually work harder now than I ever did, but towards goals that I truly cherish and in a way that I enjoy and am motivated in doing. It also made me so much more empathetic to the view of others - even if it doesn't appear so in this thread. It made me truly believe that faith, even if it takes a much different form than my own (faith) can be truly powerful. That if someone else had faith in something totally contradictory to my own, and it helped them lead what they believe is a better life, then all power to them.

 

Right up until they tell me that their knowledge in life holds more value than my own and that I have not lived the fullest of lives without their experiences. I find that to be about as arrogant a viewpoint as can be.

 

Reading more of what you write, I don't think we're that dissimilar in many ways, you with total belief in the more supernatural side of spirituality and me being happy with unanswered questions. Maths and physics were always my strongest subjects. I use their frameworks every day, both in leisure and (totally) in my work. Both (and wider science in general) have never let me down, have never lied to me and have never pretended to be something that they are not: for example the answer to everything right here and now.

 

I am still human though. I still find it easy to laugh and make light of that which I don't have answers to... but I'm getting better, slowly.

 

The longest post you'll ever see me write.

 

Thank you for this honest and personal post. Much appreciated.
You're right...we are not that dissimilar.