Maizefarmer

CHOWNAH 1 rai – well managed – will provide ALL feed required for that animal. Perhaps I should define “well managed” – irrespective of whether your methodology is “strip grazing” or “cut ‘n carry”.

It assumes you have a decesent forage to start with i.e. Ruzzi – or Lucy as the Thai’s say (because the can’t pronounce R’s – no R’s in their verbal alphabet!). Ruzzi is not the only one – there are a few others that will do the job just as well – but I grow Ruzzi by the ton, and maintain it well – so I know it works.

It assumes that you have water and can irrigate – and if you can’t go that then you will NOT have the forage growth to support the animal.

It assumes you are cutting at the right time – to maximise feed protien/nutrient content, or are controlling the access the animal has to certain areas of the 1 rai with an electric wire.

It assumes you have a “lick” for your cow.

And lastly it assumes you have AMPLE clean fresh water.

If you can include all the above and manage it properly – then 1 rai will maintain 1 head of livestock. If one of the above is missing, then it will impact on the rest and the whole system will collapse.

Will 5 rai support 6 head – yes, but see above for finer detail (and increased management time!) – but yes – no prob’s. You can push this ratio if things are going good, to 3 head on 2 rai – but watch it, you’ll have very little leeway if something goes wrong.

Both “cut ‘n carry” and “strip graze” will work , but it will be a lot easier to manage if you “cut ‘n carry”. You will have to cut every day – and if you are cutting by hand for 5 animals, I hope you have the determination of a saint, get a small cutter to mount on the rear 3 point of a Kubota or similar and a small trailer to carry the whole lot to the animal. Cut in the early morning and cut again in the late afternoon. Get a couple of small/medium size sprinklers, get on the net and do some research on sprinkler patterns and sprinkler trajectory at various water pressures, and how much they deliver p/hour. I use 2” Nelson rain guns – you don’t need that for 1 rai or even 5 rai – they need a 200hp pump each and throw out about 2 tons of water a minute over about 400 feet radius – all you’ll need is a 3 – 5hp centrifugal pump from the local hardware store – and if you’re really rural make sure you get a single phase pump and not a 3 phase pump.

Take some advise on how long Ruzzi takes to grow around where you are, establish how much your livestock needs per day for each stage of growth, and build that into the quantity of Ruzzi that 1 rai will be producing (in terms of weight) and make sure that that is what you cut and feed per day. Make sure you understand how much dry matter and nutrient Ruzzi has at each stage of growth and how that relates to what the livestock need. Now I can tell you all that – but if you’re motivated you’re going to climb onto your 2 wheeler (with the rest of the family piled on the back!!) and scoot down done to the local breeding station or uni, where you’ll find someone who will first express a lot of suprize because you are a farang, and will then take you aside and give you all the info you need – and in the process, you will have made a friend for life, because as I said in my first posting, they will do anything they can to see you succeed.

See what I am getting at when I talk about management – all these fine details have to be a) worked out and planned for, and then you have to implement it. Don’t skip this stage – do all your calculations before hand and plan for it, then implement it – it will be some work it will be, that’s for sure. But it can be done (I’ve done it) and you’ll get a lot of satisfaction from seeing it all fall into place.

RANDOM CHANCES

Yes – its adlib. Mixing your own is only feasible if done in volume.

I would be lying if I quoted what we are giving, the head heardsman has got it down to a fine point, and its actually time I had a chat with him about that, but form the Alpha Laval printouts and what I can see is been produced milk-wise it looks as if he’s feeding slightly less than 1:2 – more like 0,8:2.

Mastitis – the bain of milk farmers the world over! You can’t escape it can you. Yup,, it’s a bigger problem for us as well in the wet season.

If you can get good quality forage for the dry season you will see your yields up a good 5 – 10%, but its a pointless exercise if your costs are also going up.

Fang & Fang Mak – I have never used it so I am going to reserve comment as I don’t know much about it, other than of course it is used a tremendous amount in the North East. The so-called indigenous cattle breeds utilize it quite well.

Be careful with imported sperm – you stand a good chance of producing a “high mainatenance animal”. All my sperm comes from Chok Chai in Korat (Pak Chong). I go down there once a year and look at production records, versus that animals health record, and will select from that. There is a strong argument that supports using a genetic strain that has local environmental exposure. I had one animal in the mid-late ‘90’s that came from Dutch stock. It was producing over 50kg a day. It was an experiment. It was kept in an air conditioned and climate controlled barn. It was good animal but it was super high maintenance and not cheap to keep. I worked out that it would be viable if I had around 300 of them, but anything less than that and it was simply not viable – end of story, I sold it on to Chok Chai, who now keep it as a research/experimental “milker”.

Going to ut my head down for a few hours….

Tim

Some more info in reply to various questions– I/m going to put everything in one posting. Just skip to the bold type at the beginning of each paragraph if you’re not interested in the waffle and other detail.

NAWTILAS - The INTERNATIONAL SCHOOL at Khao Yai is good. It’s up there with the other international schools in Thailand – good teachers, good discipline. The reason why I chose it is because a) its way out of any urban environment it has what is recognised as the best language section of any of the private schools and my take with the way Thailand is going (with the sleeping giant of China on our doorstep) is that if your kids leave school fluent in Chinese they will have a competive edge over other youngsters of the same age who do not speak Chinese. There is a fair argument that supports Chinese as a 2nd language not only for Thai kids, but also for European kids – China is about to launch it’s self into the world in a big big way.

The downside is the cost – you are looking at over Baht 200k a year for 2 kids.

LAND PRICES for large acrearges – all depends on where the land is and how viable it is.

No shortage of land in North and North Eastern Thailand, the problem with it is avalibility of water – which will determine what can be done with that land. I would be misleading you if I gave a price, other than to say it can cost as little as Baht 4000 a rai for a rice paddy not in use to over Baht 100k p/rai. As a rule – the closer you get to town/city or village centres the more it costs. In 1992 I paid Baht 17800 p/rai (which has a river running through and a canal along one side but is 27km form the nearest village – cum- small town.

EMPLOYEES – I have 4 full time employees, who are always working on the farm. They get benefits like a house and schooling for the kids. The rest are not considered full-time: 28 vegetable pickers paid per kilo picked according to market prices for that day. They do about 3 – 4 hours p/day. 19 – 23 “extras” cum cane harvest/planting time and about the same cum maize harvest/planting time, for the couple weeks that all takes to each season.

Z21RHD Water Consumption – yup, that’s correct about 70 litres per day of CLEAN water per head of cattle. That’s a figure I would give for a mature animal (or one been fattened for market). More stock weighing in at less than 350 pounds you can reduce that to around 40 litres p/120 pounds body weight. So if you have 10 x 500 lbs cows you are going to need to supply them with over a 1000 litres per water p/day – and if they do not have that (especially “milkers”) their production is going to suffer.

You’ll get by with a little less on beef cattle, but a “milker” is going to be pissed off with you if its getting less than that. You are absolutely spot on with your comment regards why the average small holders’ cattle stock does not thrive. It’s a awkward cycle made worse by the fact that less water compounds its self into also meaning less fresh feed. And it’s not as if water is not there. You can dig a borehole just about anywhere in the North/North East and you will get water – it’s a question of how deep and what it costs to drill that borehole, and a lot of the small holders just cannot afford that expense – and are not going to do it if the land there stock is on is not their land (which is another problem a lot of small holders – they don’t own the land, they rent it cheaply, cheaply because its got no water to encourage forage growth).

But the one goes with the other – i.e. they are not going to consume that amount of water if they are not getting feed to support that metabolism. The 2 are very much related.

RANDOM CHANCES wanted some additional detail on this subject, and this whole thing about water is the crux to the problem of raising livestock in Northern Thailand – you must must have clean water year round in sufficient quantities. Without it your livestock are not going to be what they should be.

Moving onto feed: the best way of reducing feed costs for cattle in Thailand is a quality forage silage store for the dry season.

This is my experience – i.e. so I know it works and is achievable in NE/Thailand.

I harvest my maize “wet” at 74% moisture content – which allows for a couple of percent droppage before I get it packed and sealed – normally around 3 – 4 hours.

If you are using maize – purchased or cut yourself - make the effort to get “cracked” kernels – the maize kernels must be cracked open/broken. It does mean though that when harvested that the harvester must have a “corn cracker” (usually a set of parrellel rollers located before the chopping blades – depending on what type of forage harvester head you use)– which most Thai small scale farmers do not have sadly.

If mechanically cut, set the blades/cutting speed for around 2 – 3cm (max) particle length. My experience is if they forage particles are much bigger than that, then the cattle are not going to extract as much nutrients/energy/protein as they potentially can.

If mixing with grass, mix 60% maize with 40% grass – or when it comes to feeding, if the 2 are ensiled separately then mix at 60/40. Again, this is my experience in NE/ Thailand

Take a look at your cows shit if they have been eating maize – if not “cracked” most of the kernals will pass through all the stomachs solid and be passed out solid. That represents a 20% + loss of the nutrients they can extract from that maize (fresh or ensiled). Moral of the story – “crack” if you can.

The object of silage is to give the cow an economic feed that results in as much fat & protein production for the dry season as is possible, in the absence of fresh feed.

The 2 are slightly different – with dairy cattle put emphasise on ensiling for protein, and for beef cattle, more emphasise on fat production.

With that in mind 2 issues which will affect the silage quality are Dry matter & Moisture content. If you want the low down detail, I’ll send it to you by email, but the basically:

Dry matter for ensiled grass or maize aim for: 30% for dairy, 34% for beef

Moisture for ensiled grass or maize aim for: 70- 72% for dairy, 74-76% beef)

Whatever you do – grass or maize - ENSURE your moisture content does not drop below 70% prior to ensiling. You will run the very real risk of “overheating” and that means you will have to open the silage up to cool, which, yup you guessed it – means the air has got in and you’ve lost your dry season feed. Conversely, if it’s above 78% - 79%, in the environment we have up in NE/Thailand, my experience is that you will loose a lot of nutrient in moisture run off and encourage the growth of clostridia bacteria. Same result - ruined silage.

The last rule, which you will know, is: keep the air out. I store in pvc lined trenches below ground which is dry and very stable from a temp point of view, but that is only because I have around a thousand tons of the stuff, an there is no need to go to these lengths on a small scale. So long as your silage is ensiled at the right moisture & dry matter content, kept under a roof away from rats and mice (who will eat holes in the container and let air in), you can store your silage in any quantity from 50kg’s upwards, in any type of container so long as it is sealed properly.

Moisture probes are not too expensive and are worth every baht you pay for them. Get one.

The key is to achieve good rates of Lactobacilli and Streptococci bacteria which feed on the sugar content of the silage to produce lactic & acetic acids.

Put some effort into making good silage and you will be off to a good start for the dry season – both feed wise and cost wise.

As for raising your own stock – we are back to the question of feed availability. If you are producing your own feed and have that cost controled, then yes – it has to be the way to go, if you already have “milkers” and can afford to wait 18 – 24 months.

What if it turns out to be a low producer – well then, price it up to get your feed cost back, get it pregnant, and get rid of it – so long as you have kept a record of its development and milk yield and sell it honestly, there will always be someone who will buy it.

This was the rule I used when I first started:

what would a “milker” cost me when the calf I had was ready to start milking – versus – what it would cost you to get that calf to “milking” (and the value of the calf it produces to start milking). In most cases it turned out that keeping the calf till the first lactation, offered the better return – even if it was only few Baht 1000. But that is not always the case, and you may well find that immediate cash flow is more important than potential cash flow 18 months down the line – in which case there is no argument for support cows that are not producing milk.

For what it worth – we milked 139 head this morning in 2hrs 23minutes and got 1798litres (of which 112 litre is going no-where because those cows are having anti-biotics at the moment).

Morning is always about 10% - 12% higher than the afternoon.

Time for fried eggs, fried tomatoe, bacon & toast……..and some coffee.

Catch you guys later.

Tim

.............at this rate I'm going to run out of things to say.

Average yields – split it into wet & dry season:

Wet season average for the last 3 years for dry season is 19.36 and for wet is 17.84kg.

The problem is not so much the heat (which the cows don’t like) – more so though it’s humidity: dairy cows hate it.

I weigh up for 23% for about 4 weeks before lactation starts, then drop down to about 18% after calving for the rest of the cycle. Then stop completly when the cow goes dry and just monitor the body mass. So long as that stays up I won’t feed that cow any additives.

But heres my question for you guys who have dairy cows – have you ever checked your butter fat contents – what are they, or doesn’t your co-op/buyer ever worry about it?

Yes I do silage – it’s the only economical way to get through the dry season.

I “cut & carry” every day – though that it mechanized with a forage harvester head mounted to the front of the New Holland tractor.

How much should a 1 year old weigh?

How long is a piece of string? It really is down to how it is been fed, but if you are getting Baht10K for a one year old, I would be looking at the economics of how that animal is been looked after i.e. it is below its potential.

At that age that animal should be consuming around 3 – 4 pounds of good quality feed per 110 – 120 pounds body weight and drinking no less than 18 gallons of fresh clean water p/day. Now add the cost of “licks” and concentrates”. Now look at the amount of cattle you have – and if it’s less than 12 and that is your only income, then you are going to struggle. But you also need to look at the birth weight, and for Thailand that is quite low on average. So the question you ask is not so easy to answer but lets assume you are starting with a animal that weighed 34kg at birth (a realistic figure for Thailand), then assuming its been fed & managed properly you will want the following weights up to 12 months as follows:

Male: 3 6 9 12 (months)

95kg + 165+ 200+ 310+

Female: 90kg+ 150+ 180+ 265+

Those figures are at the lower end of the scale and take into consideration Northern Thai conditions – but anything less than that and you need to take a serious look at what is going on i.e. how the animals are managed versus what it cost and what your returns are.

Another question was: can you maintain a cow (dairy or beef) on 1 rai?

Yes you can and you can do it very well indeed: IF, if you manage that 1 rai properly (i.e. electric wire and “strip grazing”). 3 animals on 2 rai is quite possible if you manage your pasture well, and that I mean, if done properly there is no reason why the weights should not be above those I have given above.

Lets be honest about this: most guys up North who are into keeping cattle are doing so because the girl they are with comes from a family that keeps them in the first place – so why not add to it. Fine, the problem is as someone else said, the poverty in Northern Thailand can be extreme- which is why most of us have been “dragged” with wallet in hand up North!! Er……… correct me if I am wrong. And that means in most cases the cows are not at their best either. This is not a criticism at all. The reality is that the average Thai farmer has little formal education and does not manage his livestock as well as they could be managed – not because he doesn’t want to, but because poverty & circumstance prevent him from doing so. The point is: if you are so inclined to inject a bit of capital into a livestock project, do your homework and do not rely only on what your Thai “host” family is doing. Do not repeat the mistakes – use the capital to correct the mistakes. E’nuf said.

Can you start with 11 head and bring it up to 100 – er…… yes you can, but I’d take a very close look at what I was starting with – you’d want good stock and you want to take some advise from the local agricul college, breeding station or Uni and find out whats best for your area and how best to manage them. Personally I’d want to start with more than that. Remember your income comes from trading those animals, and if you only have 11 how are you going to sell as well as increase what you have. Its going to take you a mighty long time before you get any return.

RandomChances commented that a lot of dairy farms were closing around where he is - and he will be saying the same thing in 2 years time. True, the price of milk is very low in Thailand. The irony is that we have a shortage of milk in Thailand and to make up for that shortage dried and skimmed milk products are imported from Australia and Malaysia. Another way of putting it: Thaksin Inc. does not support his farming communities very well, despite giving all the rural villages (or shall I say the village heads) 1 million Baht each at the last election!!).

I am getting Baht 11. 83 p/kg, but I have to fight for that. Baht 11.55 is not to bad, but it does emphasize the need to manage properly to control costs versus milk production.

Baht20k for a pregnant 2nd or 3rd milker is not bad, but again – that is only half the story. You are not telling me if that animal is coming with a verifiable milk production record that you have seen and which is a genuine record. Is that animal tagged or branded and what semen is been used. That price can be good or bad – depending on the animals history and why it is been sold.

Yes – I mix my own meal from the base constituients – its about 35% cheaper than buying premixed protein, but a) you need the equipment and you need volume to make it feasible.

Right I think I have answered most questions – time to get some sleep – I have to be up at 3:00am.

Cheers guys.

Hi guys

I have been watching this forum for some time now. Interesting to see how many guys have given farming a go.

As we all know strictly speaking we shouldn't be, but that said - keep your nose clean, remember where we are (out in rural areas) is not Patpong Beach or Nana Plaza, and no-one is going to hassle you. The "values" out in rural Thiland are defineatley not what they are in Bangkok or Patpong Beach, and if anything my experiance is that the locals will have a grudging respect for your willingness to embedd so deeply in their culture and way of life. That at least is my experiance after 14 years at it.

For what it worth - just to proove it can be done, this is my situation:

I have 460 acres which is somewhere around 1300 rai. That is split into 450 rai s/cane, 250 rai foarge grass, 500 rai maize, about 20 rai Makuoa (little green tomatoes you see cut up and put into all sorts of Thai dishes). The rest is bare bush.

The cane goes to the mill (the "trash" is kept for dry feed) and the grass and maize is (mixed with the cane "trash") is used to support 143 dairy cows and 78 beef.

I have no experiance with goats, chickens or Buffalo

Tractors are a second hand New Holland 8870 with an 8970 fuel pump - good for 230hp, and 2 old Ford Series 40 units. The 8870 has a 3point linkage and pto at the front, which is used to carry around and drive a skid mounted water pump for irrigation. The 8870 is also used to carry a Kemper front mounted forage harvest for the maize and grass.

I see some postings are about what to feed, when to feed and the relative costs - if anyone whats detail on this only to happy to share how I go about it - but other wise won't bore you all, other than to say this: things grow quick in Thailand (even up here in the North) when its wet, but come dry season, it all comes to a stop. The key to it is having ample water - especially if you have livestock, and a big big issue if you have dairy cows. The scond problem is: protein value of feed. If you can at all afford to feed fresh then that is the way to go. Of course the logistics of that really are not always easy, in which case you are going to be forced to add commerically produced protein - and for those of you who rely on commerically produced protein, fishmeal is excellent.

Yes, I do have water - from both a canal and a river, as well as a borehole, and a dam.

The old Series 40's are used for bailing feed for the dry season.

So hows' al lthis come about. Well, I met my wife at University in the good ol' USofA and we have been together for 19 years now - 14 of which we have been in Thailand on an almost full time basis. She's a vet and I am an agricultural engineer.

We have 2 kids a the the International School near Khao Yai (Pak Chong area of Korat).

I am a permanent resident but have never considered getting T/citizenship, although the wife is a dualcitizen and so are the kids.

As a sideline a make wind generators ( I think there is a German guy somewhere around who's into solar panels) and build the occassional high-rise agricultural sprayer. Both are made totally from local components - you'd be suprized how easy it is to build a 5 - 10kw wind generator for a fraction of what they cost commercialy!

Would I give up this life for anything - not a chance. Do I miss the hustle and bustle of cities and beach resorts - like hel_l! and theres' nothing wrong with spicy Isaan food and a glass of "sato" or "Mekong". Talking about food - I was in the UK about 2 months back for the first time in 7 years. The amount of processed food Westerners are eating nowadays is incrediable. Everything is processed and comes in a plastic packet, not to mention how "fat" Western food is. I have eaten anything from a tin, plastic or cadboard container since I left Europe - its all fresh in this part of the world.

Other thing about the West is just how "sterile" lifestyles are there now-adays. When I was a kid I ALWAYS playing outside come wind, rain or shine. No one cared a shit. Nowadays the average kid is in front of a TV set or computer game and I fear to add, although the average rural Thai kid is not exposed to that, its is starting to creep into rural Thai society. Am I glad my kids were brought up away from city enviroments - yes, do I care if my youngest wants to run around in the bush barefoot on a rainy day - no. Do I have to worry about some pervert having a go at him - no.

WE have a lot to be grateful for. I know its politics and its coppers are as bent as hel_l, but it sure beats Western lifestyles as far as I am concerned. Us expats living out here in rurak Thailand couldn't have it much better, now could we.

Tim Watkins (or as the Thai's call me - Khun Seri).