Maizefarmer

Hi JungleBiker

I have no secrets – more than happy to do that and share the way I go about things with anyone who feels they could benefit from my experience.

Why don’t they practise ensiling In Laos for the dry season – is it because they don’t practise much forage cultivation to start with, is it because they don’t have a level of mechanisation to make it feasible – just why do you think ensiling is such a low priority for them?

If you send me your email address I will get "junior" (my daughter) this weekend to get some high res pictures and email them to you – it’s a good time actually because I can show you the whole process from cutting down and wilting, thru loading, packing and then sealing and vacuuming.

But just to recap on the basics………..

As a rule, just about any grass, grain or vegetable crop can be made into silage – subject to a few basic process rules.

1) Most importantly – moisture content at time of packing and sealing.

2) Cutting length – chop the crop up, do not ensile in long/big pieces.

Then while waiting for it to “mature” – moniter for:

1) Temperature

2) PH

3) Moisture

Moisture

Do not ensile any crop below 70% or above 80%.

If below 70% it will quickly overheat and destroy the bacteria needed to break the natural sugars down to lactic acid. If above 80% it will simply rot down to a stinky slushy mess.

Moisture content is something that must be taken into consideration right at the start i.e. when planning to cut the crop. Ideally, the moisture content should be calculated BEFORE the crop is cut – because that will determine how long it has to lie around before it can be ensiled.

It should be checked with a moisture meter, but if no m/meter is available then use the microwave oven method - a round figure handful (say 100grams) in a glass/plastic bowl, weighed before heating and then again afterwards, with the before/after weight difference converted to “percentage” is a ###### accurate alternative. This method can be further refined/used to calculate time required to dry out and a number of other parameters that are not essential, but very helpful to getting good silage results.

PH

Monitoring PH – critical and so seldom monitored in Thailand, and yet so easy to monitor. The quicker the PH drops the more nutrients are preserved. What determines how quick your PH drops is your initial moisture content. It should be checked every day for the first 14 – 21 days and you are looking for a consistent drop, Drawing this on a graph provides a very informative record from which a wealth of “feed” quality info can be interpratated. In simple terms, one should be aiming for 3.8 – 4.2

Ph can be reliably monitered with hospital type urine Ph strips – crush up some crop/silage, mix completely with an equal quantity of sterile water in a glass or plastic container (not steel or aluminium) and allow to settle for about 10 – 15 minutes. Dip the ph strip in for about 30secs – 1 minute and read the ph. Cheap and simple – even the most remote hospital/health clinic in Laos can offer sterile water and ph strips.

Tem

Stable temp throughout the fermentation stage(s) should be maintained – and by that I mean the environmental temp – hence the larger the silage quantity and the more isolated from the weather/sun/high temp – low temp fluctuations the better. Stick it in the ground if you can.

Particle Size

Important – to big then the cattle will pass a large percentage through their rumen without extracting as much protein/nutrient as they can. To small and it will pass through to quick,, again without giving the animal time to extract as much as they could. Ideal size for cattle – around 2cm – 3cm, possibly larger but not above 4cm.

Silage can be stored in ANYTHING so long as a number of rule are adhered to:

1) Single packs/quantities to be above 50kg – the more the better.

2) Must be SEALED from air

3) Large quantities should be packed consistently i.e. avid dense and lightly packed areas – keep it all the same.

4) Large quantities must have drainage at the base e.g. place chicken wire on some boards on the floor – that 1” or so below the boards will allow “runoff” to separate from the silage.

5) If in trenches – line trench with pvc and cover top with 25 – 50cm soil.

Monitor temp and PH daily – in a large volume say a volume measuring 10m x 5m 2m no harm in lifting a bit of one corner each day to get a handful out to test.

AS I said JungleBiker – drop me your email address by PM and I’ll get some photos over the weekend because all I am doing this weekend is ensiling. And if you want more “practical” detail – more than happy to help.

I would really like to know why stock farmers in Laos don’t put much emphasize on ensiling. In Thailand the reasons are usually volume, couldn’t be bothered or the false perception that it is a black art i.e. its been tried and failed, and because the farmer just couldn’t avoid to have a situation like that on his hands again, hasn’t done it again.

But like most aspects to farming in Thailand, livestock feeding is “hampered” by poverty and lack of education.

You are always welcome to come over and stay a weekend. Another “farang farmer” is going to be coming over for a weekend in about a month’s time – you’re welcome to join up with him. If interested, PM me and we can discuss further.

Tim

Mayarab

1) Plough +/-5cm “cross-cut” with a disc (ask your local tractor driver what “cross-cut” means – and if its on a slope – make sure its done properly or you going to loose a lot of top soil )

2) Wait 7-10 days and plant your crop.

3) Wait for the myarap to emerge – give about 5 days for some leaf structure to establish.

4) Go down to the local agricultural store and get some “Roundup” (its not cheap).

5) Mix it and get your “gopher” to go round and spray all the emerged Myarap (which so long as there is moisture in the soil, it will have emerged by now and have a leaf structure).

There will still be Myarap in the soil but its growth will be stunted severly by the crop coverage and its not going to be a problem for that crop. But if you are not growing a crop then obviously this wont work.

You wont find this on the internet – it comes from real life experience.

Tim

Hi Jungle biker

I'll answer sometime tomorrow or over the weekend - I have just had a shit load of rain over the last 24/36 hours and am having major problems getting silage cut and into the barns to dry out before it all rots in the fields. So I have little time to deal with much else.

RANDONECHANCES - hi mate, can you give me an indication of what the rainfall like round you hs been like over the last 2 days - is it much? I have had a ton and half - by far the most for at elast 5 years.

Tim

You're not kidding...................

Tim

Bina

Do you mean a Thai cow breed with genetic characteristics specificaly for Isaan, or do you mean a generic Thai cow living in Isaan.

No such thing as the former, and in the case of the latter - no the do not have any significant ability to handle the high salt content.

AS for a Thai cow (Lamphung) - yes, its more comfortable with Isaan conditions than other stock.

Just by way of background - the so-called indigenous Thai cow originally came into Thialand from the North-East (Cambodia & Laos) - which means it had to spend time in Isaan to pass through to the rest of the country. This is many moons ago - and before you ask, no I have no idea, what characteristics were established at various points in its migration with people as the moved down from the Northern parts of Asia - as is the origion of a lot Thais.

Tim

Bina - its always been like that - but "that" is a bit of a misnomer actually, because as soon as you move off the platuea into the surrounding hills, it becomes one of the lushest and least spolit areas of Thialand. It is remote and isolated with little infrastructure - it is behind the rest of the country.

Salt on the platuea has always been there - its the geology of the area and not from overgrazing, but natural.

Tim

Ken

Negative – I have no restrictions – I pump as much as 2 000 tons a day in the dry season.

Yes – 12volt pump can do the job – it depends what its wattage rating is. e.g. you can get a 12v 3hp pump or even a 12v 5hp pump – either of which will do, but they will be drawing enormous current (e.g. 5hp = about 3.6Kw which is around 300Amps or about 3 full 12volt tractor batteries p/hour – so theoretically possible but not efficient – and the motor will weigh a ton because of the size of the coil required to handle that current - Ohms law).

That now said, CHOWNHA has taken the wind out my sail, and given you all the tech theory –, but this is an open forum, and to his credit – what he has told you is 100% dead on correct - just minus a few of the practical issues that will effect it.

So what is the realistic solution - and I emphasize "realistic" because the theory is one thing, but when it comes to putting it into practise a whole host of practical issues effect it, and add to this – and by realistic I mean both economical and practical.

This is my solution – with a strong economic theme to it – but I know it works because I have done it – so there, that takes care of any doubt on that.

Bearing in mind the height you tell me you need to pump and the volume you need to pump versus efficiency (and efficiency here means flow friction in the water pipe of the total distance to be pumped, plus the vertical height + a good safety margin), this is what I suggest if you want the practicality of 12Vdc.

2 x 12v Bilge pumps as used on the average yacht.

An example of these (but there are many different types) can be found on:

www.whalepumps.com/caravan_RV/product_list/16/72/

My recommendation is that you use standard blue pvc piping as obtainable from any Thai Hardware store and you ensure the diameter is 2” – 3” (not less).

These types of pumps are great – the one I have given the web address to as an example is rated at 2 bar (i.e. it will pump to 20 meters height). It can also run dry without any damage. It draws 5 amps and so in theory will run off a standard car battery of 60Amps for around 12 hours (if fully charged) – in reality it will run for about 9 hours because Thai batteries are never what they say they are!!

Taking into consideration height, distance pipe diameter, efficiency ect ect……. a single pump will give you in your application a realistic 4.3 – 5.6 litres p/minute – say 300p/h, and 2 will give you 600L p/hour, or your 5000 litres over around 10 hours.

And to power 2 pumps you are going to need 1 x 12Vdc 120 Amp truck battery, or a multiple of smaller batteries amperage 12Vdc batteries connected up in parallel to get a total of at least 120Amps.

Now then those are the basics – and as always, when I give advice – I’m willing to put my money where my mouth is …………blah blah, blah blah.

The 2nd best way to set the pumps up are, one at the beginning of the system, down by the water, and one half way up the line, connected in parallel to the 12vDc batteries.

But the best way to connect them up would be to place them as above, but in series and use a 24Vdc battery – that will give you better efficiency. There is a problem though – as I understand it, your whole solar system is set up for 12vDc, but if you can find a way around that (which is easy – but another story) – that is the way I would want to go – because it is easier to move 10Amps over a long cable at 24V, than it is to move to move 5Amps over a long cable at 12Vdc (yup ……… I’m just waiting for the flood of replies to that last statement!!!).

Any how’s, look I can go on and on about this – to cut a long story short, lots of ways to skin a cat. Bilge pumps are easy to get – all the yacht chandlers in BKK, Phuket and Pattaya have them and they all do the same job – just ensure it’s rated for 12Vdc and 5Amps or more, or even better ask for the pressure rating – you want 2bars or more pressure. I f you want me to source the components and provide you with a professional appraisal, to include correct cable size to use, right type of flow switch to use, and professional instructions on how to go about setting it all so that it works – I will do so, I will charge for it, and all the components used will be guaranteed and so will the performance. And at that point we need to go over to PM or private email, but for the purposes of steering you in the general direction it is my opinion that the above is an economical, practical and viable way to get the job done. I have just one concern – you panel wattage, I believe you need to invest in another panel and or include Ac/Dc from the house mains as an option - which should in any case be included because it ain't going to shine every day.

If you have a 3kw wind turbine - well, then problems over - you'll be able to pump 5000litres every hour! - and we can chat about that over PM or private email if you would like to.

Trust this all helps and all the best

Tim

Hi Ken

I have seen the report – it makes interesting reading. Truth be known, the basic quality of the components is fine – it’s the way they have been put together and have then been maintained by users.

Its clear the guys doing the soldering had limited knowledge on reading schematics, and so the same mistakes were repeated in batches – hence you find a lot of untis in the same district with the same fault.

The other side is this – many of the users did/do not understand that you just can’t run the system till its death – you have to let the batteries charge up – and really, the inverters should not be drawing current from the batteries if the amperage runs too low.

My long term concern – and this will only be known in time – is just how good the panels are. They look okay, but I wonder if they will be working in 10 – 15 years time, which good panels will be.

It is/was I’m afraid a project that was full of good intention but which was not implemented properly – as is so oftent he case with public works projects in Thailand.

Still, none of the problems apparent are problems that cannot be overcome.

Anyway to your specific questions:

1) I think you is going to have problems with your water pump. You will need a pump that can pump at least 3.5 – 4bar pressure. Now in theory you can do that with 1 watt of power, but the volume which pumped will be a trickle – so pointless. I think you are going to struggle with one panel to get sufficient volume moved. It is not the way I would go about it. I need to know how much water you need to pump per day. From that, with the height info you have provided I can tell you exactly how many watts you require and exactly what pump you will need to get and how long you will have to run it – and from that we can calculate exactly how much power needs to be generated and stored. Get back to me on that please.

2) Sending power back to the grid? Knock the idea on the head – there is no system in place which will offer you any benefit or return for that at the moment in Thailand.

3) The turbines I build I build from scratch – I even wind the coils for the alternators/stators my self. You can have either type. The best for Thai conditions are the TAURUS design types – which have an odd number of coils in a circular arrangement around a diameter of 1 - 1.7meters, on either side of which are to direct driven circular plates onto which the magnets are fixed (the size and number of coils determines the power output. If you go to http://www.scoraigwind.com/nirvana/page1.htm you will see exactly what I build – mine are a direct copy in terms of the technical principals – but are produced using proper machined parts, and are professionally presented in custom housings – but in operating principal are identical. Yes – it really is that easy if you understand how – and much cheaper than buying commercially – less than 1/3 for the same thing from a professional wind turbine manufacturer. I offer a 5 gauruntee on the coil and all electronics. I give a lifetime garuntee on the tower – if I build it and install it – the exception been if it is hit by lightening (no on can garuntee against that damage

The grass problem – Guinea is an option, I don’t think you have been advised wrong per say, but letting animals graze it is a no no – they will tears the roots up over time and it will get more and more clumpy, as you like to describe it.

I’d give Ruzzi (the Thai’s say Lucy – because they cant say their R’s) a go. Spread it by hand and then get a rake over it just to cover it a little. It will fill in nicely between the Guinea clumps and at some point one will start to dominate. Put some fertilizer down50kg p/rai with the seed should be fine (any of the cheap nitrogen types will do – you ain’t going for a high quality feed so don’t go overboard). How much seed - start off with 2 -3 kg max p/rai thats actuall a lot, and quite a bit will eventually get taken over by the rest - but its a one investment and its going to give you a quick well spread root system. This is on a hillside/slope - is it not. Thast important because if not then it will become water logged and will not germinate, let alone grow.

And keep the animals off for at least 18 – 20 months. Then you can let one of the locals who has cattle maintain it for you for free – but insist he “cut & carries” it off the land to feed. Should work out quite well and it will be in his interest to maintain it as it provides him with a free feed source for his cattle.

Get back to me when ready.

Tim

Hi Ken

I'll catch up with the subject later tonight (i.e. about 2am tomorrow) - need to get some sleep - have had none at all sicne I got up yesterday at 2:30am.

Tim

Can money be made from Rubber trees?

In theory yes, in practise - well, thats another question.

Someof the old Chinese families down South have made a fortune from rubber trees (huge plantations) but as a rule, I don't think its ranks high on the get rich list of occupations.

I would have thought that if you have the land to grow small plantation, why not consider getting planing permission to put houses on it - because that will make you a profit. But there agin, I dont know the situation so maybe the sugestion is daft in this instance.

Tim

.........oh, and I should add - I know jack-ass about growing rubber, so maybe my comment is well out of place, but like all ventures in Thailand - never feel you have all the info required to make the correct decision untill you have made the decision, tried it out and experiance the results!

RDC is right

There are essentially two systems in operation: one is very formal and well regulated/organised, the other is not.

The regulated option (if done properly) starts right at the birth of the animal. it is tagged and records are kept in accordance with all the rules & regs (i.e. date of birth, where it is kept, name of afrm, health history and what not...) Come slaughter time, that animal has a higher value in theory. It will go to a BEV abatoir (Beef Export Verification Abbatoir) and as it has been tracked through life, its meat will qaulify for export, or be sent to Big C, Central, Lotus/Tesco ... and other big name stores.

The other side of the coin, and this accounts for just about all meat not in the above catorgory, is the "local market". Meat that the average Thai buys across the counter from his local market. That will be most likely slaughtered at a local small abbatoir.. It will be an animal from a small farm or "farmer" who has a few cows on the side. But in using the word small I should add that in overall qauntity it accounts for the largest part of the Thai fresh meat market.

In both cases wieght is the basis to the value of the cow. In the first case, the animal will be weighed. In my case the inspector comes round and weighs at the farm within 48 hours of the animal packing its bags to leave, and the price agreed is the price we get. that price is based on the going market rate for that point in time, which is collated from Agricultural Department Livestock records, but its a market set price not a Government set price.

At open air auctions the traders are a wily and very shrewd bunch of guys - from experiance they will know the wieght of a animal just by looking at it - no need for scales for these guys. Its a wild place with a culture and way of doing business that is best left to the experianced!!

Reg papers and offical paperwork here is not the order of the day - as its all cash that the Revenue department see's little of. You could by an animal that is putting on a good show only to drop when it gets to its new home, but you could also buy an absolute stunner. Its like a 2nd hand car - caveat emptor!

Tim

No such thing as a "best cattle in Thailand for beef" (or dairy for that matter).

It will come down to what animal a farmer has chosen to invest in and how he has managed that animal which wil ldetermine the quality of the meat that comes from it.

I know of farmers who have animals from good stock but which are not kept well, and hence the meat is not what it should be, and I know of farmers who have animals of no particular stock, but which are well looked after, and the lcoals line up when they hear one is due for the chopping board. And then you buy from the market butcher - and untill you cook it you won't know what you are getting.

But if I was to generalise, I would say that if you took 100 animals from the Pak Chong/Muak Lek area and compared them to 100 animals from Loei or Kalasin (assuming both had been maintaine don a similar diet), the chances are the better of the 2 is going to be one of the animals that came from Pak Chong/Muak Lek.

ASfar as exactlywhat type of cow it is - well, your guess is as good as mine, becuase other than been able to make a general classification based on physical appearance, you cannot tell exactly what you have in the absense of any records/history.

Brahma and Sahiwal (and mixes thereof) make pretty decent beef animals - but it aint going to be stamped on the package, and unless you quize the butcher in the market (who may or may not know) - the proof will be in the eating.

But quite frankly - could you tell if you were eating beef from one type or another? I couldn't with the exception perhaps if its Buffalo and its in a dish I am familar with.

In summary - so maaaany variables on that question - its a tough one.

Does anyone know where MacDonalds in Thailand gets it beef from - I'm told some is local and some is imported frozen from Singapore?

AS for the paperwork associated with livestock in Laos - nightmarish. Only 7 pieces of paper!

It's all about stats and health. Laos has a huge problem with Foot & Mouth, and the way they control it (well, try to) is by monitoring the movement of livestock. Actually, Europe is no different - you can't just load a truck up with livestock and mve them from one province to the next, let alone from one side of an EY country ot the next. there is a load of documentation, but the system is well managed and integrated and largely automtaed by way of pc based recod keeping. Not so in Laos - its all about running around from one office to the other to get stamps and signatures - whole of Asia is like that.

Whats the situation with moving a truck load of pigs cross country in Laos - more paperwork?

And last but not least - smuggling livestock and meat is a big time occupation in Laos - both into the country from Thaialnd and out of it to Thailand. A lot of the meat in Loei is smuggeled in cheaply from Laos with no health certificate or controls - and a lot of the pork comes from F&M infected animals.

Tim

The incidence of crop poisoning in Thailand is in reality very rare.

It’s a “freak” occurance which requires a number of environmental conditions and growth stages all to meet up & coincide just when the crop is been fed to your animals. And even when those conditions do exist, as a potential risk to cattle it can by and large be eliminated by cutting the crop high enough off the ground – leaving as much of the hard stem in the ground as you can - where most “nasties” usually accumulate – and also avoiding a lot of the weeds that grow down there.

………… in the case of “poison” silage, the taste is usually so off that your cattle will reject it if healthy, you’ll find your herdsman wont be feeling well (because of handling the stuff).

As to how much a healthy cow would have to consume before keeling over – I wouldn’t have a clue, buts it’s going to be a good few kg’s before they start complaining.

How many Thai farmers or vets would be able to recognise the symptoms ? – not many , I certainly don’t think I would before it reached a real serious problem.

AMMONIA SMELL – a good sign actually. It means loads of lactic acid bacteria exist and are breaking down the natural sugars of the plant. And that in turn reduces the formation of pockets of fungus and mold.

The easy practical way to monitor stored crops (silage or otherwise) if to be used as a feed, and if you are concerned about any poisonous compounds developing, is to monitor just one parameter. PH.

For Grass feeds and forages in my experience (i.e. against the background of Thai conditions), go for a PH of 4.5. For corn Silages go for a PH of 4.0 – and for a mixed silage anything between the 2 is great.

But don’t be concerned if you PH is high (5 or 5.5), as that’s still quite safe, and as the natural tendency is for it to drop over time (e.g. if stored as a silage), just wait a little longer – if you’ve cut it and stored it properly, no matter what the mix is, the PH will drop over time, and when it hits 5 of below, that’s a great time to start feeding it to cattle.

DIY PH TESTING

Get round to the local hospital and get some PH test papers – the little strips with different colors on them (and you’ll need the ref.chart as well).

Get some plant matter from the plant in question and crush it up in a CLEAN glass container with a glass rod, spoon or something made of glass. Do not touch contents with your grubby hands.

Mix with DE IONISED WATER or STERILE WATER (from same hospital if possible – and make sure they don’t give you saline or dextrose solution!!).

You want about equal parts in volume.

Mix the whole lot up thoroughly, and allow to settle for about 30 minutes.

Take the test strip, stick it in for about 30secs – 1min, and take out and now compare with the chart.

That is a fair accurate PH test – I use it all the time so I no it works. Its great because you can do it out in the field with fresh crops straight away and not have to worry about how any time delay has effected the accuracy of your results.

For soil exactly as above but use soil, not plant matter.

The key to achieving accuracy here is to ensure what whatever use mix it all up in is not going to affect the PH.

Dont worry yourselves about Nitrite or Acid base posining from crops - in theory possible, in practise lot of of things have to happen for it to manifest its self as a problem. It really is very rare.

Hey - can someone explain to me how you send private message to people please?

What do I click - where do I click.

Yer go on have laugh - I don't know much about using the inter and computers.

Thanx

Tim

COLIN - you can haul yourslef up here anytime for a weekend - I'm not far from Sam Muang - which is on the 2216. But you're gong to have to hang on a while - I am in the middle of cutting down the first maize crop and getting the next lot planted so we are all working 14 - 16 hour days till I guess around the 22nd - 23rd.

BINA - Why would any a cow be a better cow in Thailand if it had an ability to withstand dry conditions??

Get your self up to North East Thailand for anytime end of November to end of March - and you'll see why. Its barren and its brown - there is no rain, everything becomes dormant.

Tim

Chownah

Now. my other half is the specialist on this subject (i.e. humps and lack thereof and what is what ect…….) – she is a vet and a lecturer at Uni in animal genetics, and in taking guidance from her when posting the start to the thread, she was advising me to define all I said very carefully. I said no – this is a forum for a bunch of Western society dropouts – KISS – keep it simple stupid so all can relate to it and find it practical. Er…. – shes grinning now, how right she was!!

I fear we are going down a path beyond the scope of this forum, but fair comment you raise the questions, if I am to be bold enough to comment, then I should clarify the point if asked or challenged.

So we take a step back in the origin of Bos Indicus and Bos Tuarus, and find that both originate from the Auroch (Bos Primigenius) – the dominant observable physical difference been, the former has a hump, the latter does not.

However, this is where perhaps I should have included a clearer definition……..and I cut & paste from the other half, as it is she who has replied – you are way beyond my personal knowledge level detail here.

“despite 2 distinct dichotomies in the mtDNA, if you take the matter further and study the phylogenetic network, you will find Indicus nodes in Taurus – which is often described as “Humpless Zebu”, partly because Zebu is genetically older than Taurus – and because they both stem originally from Auroch – the prime generator of their common genetics”

Personally when it gets to this level, it is my opinion we have drifted off the point, but for the record folks – Chownah’s comment, in the absence of the clarification now given, was a valid and correct comment i.e. Bos Taurus and Bos Indicus are different, and it would be incorrect to call a Fresian a “Humpless Zebu”.

If anyone wants to take this further – I’ll give you my other half’s email ……. !

No – I had no idea at all that IT IS had dropped one and grouped them both together – it makes no difference to my farming practises. I have no reason to be up to date on such matters - I refer to the other half for comment, to which she replies that it is been resisted by a huge sector of the academic community – in particular in South East Asia. The irony is that Indicus can be genetically profiled quite distinctly from Taurus, and furthermore: as stated in reply to your first comment: there is a lot of Indicus trait in Taurus – in particular in South East Asia, but not the other way round. And thirdly, what does everyone now do: throw out or rewrite thousands and thousands of academic papers from Asia and Australia? Not likely. We are in agreement on this – it is a daft idea.

Your 3rd point: - is the hump passed on by the mtDNA?

Well, depending at what level animal geneticists “extract” info from, or at what level they focus in on – which in turn depends on the objective of the exercise, one can say "yes" or "no". Surely something can't be black and white at the same time.

Strictly speaking you raise a valid point. That said, the other half replies as follows:

“the significant content of literature existing today in Asia on the genetics and phylogeography of various cattle types & strains, has been collated by way of polymerase chain reactions on the mtDNA extracted from individual cattle”. i.e. I was making my point again st the background of how it has been established - and on this point, yes Chownah - evidance of the hump been passed on is established from extracted mtDNA. I am married to a woman who spends a large part of who professional time conducting just such reasearch.

So, my statement was made against the background of what I was trying to convey, and once again, yes – maybe I should have defined what I said a little better, but hel_l – just how far do I to take it before it becomes impractical and of little consequence to readers.

As for your other comments regards mtDNA, I am to tell you that as you suggested, you do need to do some reading up on the subject.

And as for your last comment –

I was making a statement regards the significance of the hump in the Thai indigenous cow, which in the absence of examining the DNA, is the/a significant physical trait which separates it from other cattle in Thailand which do not have a hump, and that if the cow you are looking at does not have a hump, it's not a Koa Lamphun indigenous Thai cow.

But to reply directly to your question: am I saying that any cow in Thailand with a hump formation on the back – irrespective of the size of the hump or the animal – is carrying a large whack of Bos Indicus mitochondrial DNA – yes, I am. The other half says, I could have said, "if mtDNA is extracted from any cow in Thailand with a hump, you will find a genetic link to Bos Indicus - and this includes Brahma. " Yer, okay.............. if you want to bring Brahma into this, and make the point that they are not as close as one would get to defining a Thai indigenous cow, please note: I did qualify what I said by further narrowing down the argument in the next sentance to name a cow(e.g. Kao Lamphun) and provide some basic physical features about it, like colour and horn characteristics, and then went on further to add an example of how input from other types of cattle would effect it.

So quite what the point was in raising the Brahma in the context you did, I have missed…… its a detail that in the context of the statement and who I was addressing, is a fine point that adds little in practical terms.

But for the record for all who have the time to read through all this (!!) - Brahma is as a recognised independant breed, much the same as is Kao Lumphun - and both come from Bos Indicus.

Perhaps my re-action to your points is wrong, I am no specialist in animal genetics, my other half is an authority on the subject (at least as far as cattle in Thailand go – and it is in no small way that the success of this farm is down to her contribution). However, in the context of this forum, it is a complete mute point – and of little practical interest to readers. I feel you focused in very specifically on a few points, that in an academic context, yes, could have been defined more clearly by me in the original posting – but, hel_l, to what end in the context of this forum?

Let’s keep it simple……

Nu'f said - time to have breakfast.

Tim

“Humpless Zebu” – type in “Bos Taurus”, as opposed to “Bos Indicus”

This confusion is common because depending on the article written, you will find many geneticists use the terminology Indicus for “Humped” and “Taurine” for Humpless – so may also try a search on the net for “Bos Taurine”

Tim

So what constitutes a Thai cow – or what is a Thai cow?

It depends how far back you want to go back in history, but it’s generally accepted the existence of the “modern cow” as we know it today can be traced back in Thailand to around 3000BC.

The main/predominant genetic strain which flows through modern Thai “indigenous” cattle is

Bos Indicus, or in simple language, the Humped Zebu – more simple known as "Zebu".

Any cow you see in Thailand with a hump formation on the back – irrespective of the size of the hump or the animal – is carrying a large whack of Bos Indicus mitochondrial DNA, and is as close as you are going to get to defining Thai “indigenous” cattle.

From the Humped Zebu, the prominent indigenous Thai cow that Thai's bred is known in Thailand as the “Kao Lamphun” cow, also known as “Kho Chon”. This animal has a short straitish horn, and in its “pure form” is a dirty white colour - other colours coming in from some degree or other of other types of cattle, which if from a European herd, interestingly enough would be one or other of the breeds now common in Europe which were bred originally from Humpless Zebu (e.g. Fresian). The brown tendancy, and increase in milk production, comes from Sahiwal cattle - originally from Pakistan and which was bought to Thailand by the very first commercial dairy farmers in this country in the 1940's - 1950's, who were Pakistani immigrants living in and around Bangkok.

So – just what is so good about Kao Lumphun for Thailand and Thai conditions? Well, there is nothing complicated about it – it’s quite simply that the predominant Zebu genetic trait gives this cow resistance to local dieses that imported stock (like Friesian), do not have. It is also able to digest Asian grasses and plants much better than imported stock. And lastly, its water requirements are not as high as imported stock - in fact a chemical analysis of Kao Lamphun urine shows it similar in some respects to Asian camel urine. I don't know the "in's & out's" of that, but it has something to do with the animals ability to survive comfortable on limited water resources. That trait is not evident in European cattle of the Humpless Zebu.

But as a milk cow, it is a useless commercial proposition.

The Kao Lamphun is becoming increasingly rare in Thailand, and a genetic DNA study undertaken in 2003 by Khon Kaen Uni found that many of the herds that were belived “pure” 15 – 20 years ago are not pure, or are no longer pure – i.e. there are increasing amounts of Humpless Zebu genetics creeping in (from imported “European” cattle).

It is a dying breed simply because of its limited commercial value, not only as a milk animal, but also as a beef animal, because of its natural weight and size. Still, pure herds do exist, and it is not uncommon to come across the odd die-hard old-school Thai farmer who swears by them and earns his living from them - so it is possible.

As a side note: Dairy farming interestingly enough, was first practised in and around Bangkok in the 1940’s by Pakistani immigrants – of all people! Up until then rural Thai communities did not keep or breed cattle for dairy purposes and the consumption of milk in rural areas was so small as to be statistically insignificant. In fact it was seldom if ever consumed in rural Thailand and one of the reasons for that was, that for Homo Sapiens to digest milk they need an enzyme in the digestive tract to break down sugar lactose – without which we get sick (sugar lactose intolerance). The enzyme(s) is Lactase and Lipase.

It is a genetic fact that Asians have less resistance to sugar lactose than Europeans, and as a consequence, those who did drink cow’s milk in the old days, got sick – and from that grew the tendency in Thai (and other Asian cultures) not consume milk.

However, as we are changing so much genetically in modern society (just look at how many people are fat nowadays (Thai’s and Europeans), primarily as a result of the amounts of fat and sugar we are consuming in modern diets, so to is the human body’s ability to process sugar lactose – and from that has stemmed a year on year increase in the consumption of dairy milk by Thai’s (and other Asian cultures).

Tim

Solar Energy in Thai is “ พลังงาน แสงอาทิตย์ “, - pronounced “Plaang Ngaan Sean Atit”.

It’s made up from the words Energy (พลังงาน) & Sun-light (แสงอาทิตย์).

There are 3 variations for the word in Thai – actually 4, if your boyfriend is from the “deep South” down by the Malaysian border, he may only know it in Hokkien – and I wouldn’t have a clue what it is then, but other wise, so long as this forum can carry Thai alphabetic symbols, it’s more or less as written above – which he should recognise, immaterial of which part of the country he’s from.

While I wait for RDC to come back to me with some soil info, if anyone wants to take up the subject or use the thread to ask a question or add comment, I have a ton of work to do – so by all means go ahead anyone, feel free to add whatever comment you wish.

Tim

– today was not my day – I’m only just getting to bed now (I’m normally in bed by 6:30 – 7:30pm).

So I’ll catch up with all on Saturday…………………….the joys of farming, that is if you want to work 24/7/365………….

Maize – 2 crops a year, harvested fully grown: the first at the start of the rainy season and the second when the monsoon switches over from rainy to dry

Most of the second crop is ensiled and then mixed with fresh grass which is grown throughout the year at feed time. I can grow a 3rd crop but the extra fuel costs for irrigation, although still profitable, reduce net income – on balance, not worth it.

Grass Ruzzi- First cut after 60 days, and then thereafter roughly every 30/35 days – with increasing fertiliser addition at each cut (Nitrogen) to the point that cost/benefit outweighs growth and nitrogen input – at which point the field is ploughed up and reseeded, on average every 36 months. I might put the animals out to pasture for a month or so right at the end – they’re pretty good at pulling the roots up of the old grass and it save the cost of having to spread the slurry.

Give me a day or to to go through some old records on my trials with other grasses. I f I am going to give you some “advise” I am going to make sure its ###### spot on and correct.

Don’t do anything yet but I think a solution could lie with Napier, or Guinea and/or Ruzzi grass(es)

The issue about growing them successfully (and successfully is in capital letters), is that all of them have very different water requirements, fertilizer requirements and soil requirements, the last of which (i.e. soil requirement) can be manipulated by way of fertilizer regime to a large degree (at least enough for successful cultivation).

The only thing common to all 3, assuming no water problem, is that you/we have a climate which is suitable for all of them, and therefore all of them are potentially viable COMPLETE feed solutions for Thai conditions. And when I say COMPLETE I mean that all the above can provide 9-10 MJ/kg DM Metabolic Energy @16-17% protein – no, I joke not. In effect, that has the potential to knock 75% + off your concentrate costs. I palatable – which they all are – the cows will lap it up in huge quantities, which will stimulate water intake and Bingo, big improvement in milk yield.

In very broad terms their respective soil requirements are as follows:

Napier: will need all your manure/slurry, will need regular fertilizer (Nitrogen and Phosphorus), will need urea and will need loads of water year round. As a feed it has one distinct advantage – the net phosphate output from the cow in urine and faeces – if slurried and returned to the field is + (i.e. providing all + phos needs for the plant to grow. I think it is something like 33% input to the soil versus something like 26% that the plant takes out when growing – hence the need to rotate every 3 or 4 years, and this “technique” if you can get it down to a fine point by way of careful crop choice can act as “self fertilization” – using different crops at different times for their respective benefits). Best I stop at this point…………… will cover all this later, but I I hope it makes the point, as these are issues which the average small Thai dairy farmer just does not consider when selecting and managing forage grasses and then wonders why he’s stuck with high concentrate costs.

Ruzzi: comparatively less water, but more nitrogen required. Harvested at shorter intervals. Comparatively higher DM but reduced Crude Protein (I,m sure I ‘m right on this last point – but until I have had time to go through my records I stand to be corrected).

Guinea: Purple variety – not Blue variety……….I need to check this one out, I just can’t remember where it fits in comparatively to the others.

……………and all should be wilted for 24 hrs after been cut before been fed (loads of water in the rumen reduce a “milker’s” appetite – another thing a lot of Thia’s don’t do).

RDC – do you have any info on your soil type or have you ever had a soil test. Share with me as much as you can please, then we can put all this “waffle” into a real life context.

Time to get some work done……….

Catch up with you later.

Tim

RDC – I want to chew on what you’ve said for a day or 2 before replying.

In over simplistic terms all I know about Fang/Fang Mak is that a lot of the problems in using it lie beyond the livestock farmers control: they are down to limited digestability of the stuff and the huge variations in its quality.

Studies done on Fang/Fang Mak done in Vietnam are different to those done in Sri Lanka and Thailand – as the products in all 3 places are different to start with. The Chinese have been incredibly successful with feeding it to livestock, but you need to bare to mind that the average Chinese rice paddy is producing 2 to 3 times as much as a Thai rice paddy – which in its self says a lot about the quality of the product in the first place.

I am no expert on the stuff – tried it once and the milkers rioted.

I’ll come back to you in a day or so with my take on the situation – but interesting to see your efforts with Ruzzi – which at the end of the day has proved consistently to my best option(along with maize).

Have been on the tractor most of today – got all the slurry onto the fields so the place has a lovely aroma to it for the next 48 hours – off to bed…………

Tim

RDC – you may not be from farming stock mate – but from what I have read on your postings – going back to even before I started adding my bit – you’ve got your act together very well………nothing beats hands on experience and self learning, which is where you are coming from.

When changing the diet of “milkers”, you cannot/should not feed Fang or fang Mak one day, and then suddenly change over to grass – or vis-a-versus – the next day.

Cow’s digestive systems and the way they extract energy from food is a process that they developed and adapt to over time. The change over should be gradual. As an example, if you are dropping Pangular or Ruzzi and changing to Fang/Fang Mak, you should do it by replacing about 10% of the weight/volume feed at a time – and over a period of about 10 weeks keep withdrawing an extra 10% each week of the grass, and replace it with Fang/Fang Mak.

Can I help you – I’ll do my best RDC. But before that, let me see that I understand your situation properly first.

You have 60 rai and 70 head of stock. In theory you have enough land to grow sufficient forage for the whole year – whether ensiled or fresh (I ensile for the dry season only because of economics, not of direct feed cost, but because of fuel costs to sustain the same growth in the dry season – although I do irrigate- just enough to maintain growth). But that’s another story – the question is: why aren’t you using the land to its full potential. Is water a problem, is it that you don’t have a tractor/cutter.

I want to understand that first, then we can discuss a way around the problem, or what has to be done to get the most out of that land, because (subject to correction) I get the impression that your land is not supporting your livestock count – why.

When we’ve got through that, then we can look at what to grow, and how to manage it e.g. let one third grow for silage, cut it and ensile. Then rotate to another one third, let that grow and then cut it and ensile. Build up 3 different ensiled stocks for different time periods and separate each stock into 2 or 3 piles as a safety measure just in case one pile fails so you don’t get caught out with 1 month of no dry season feed.

How much water should you apply in winter?

How much should you mix dry hay with silage with fresh (assuming you are grown a little in dry season)

………… all questions to be worked through when I understand what is holding you back from growing forage on that land.

KEN – the biggest wind generator I have built in Thailand is 12 Kw. The problem is, it don’t matter how big your genie is - if you have no wind it’s not going to do the job. A wind/solar panel combination is the best way to go – but panels are sooooooo….. expensive in Thailand that their cost in nearly every case is just not justified – however long the period of time is over which you hope to recuperate the investment.

Most of the units I build are 5Kw units – which I can build for around Baht 100 000 including the rectifier circuit, but no the tower or the dc/ac power supply (the box of tricks that converts the stored power back to ac power for use in the house.

That is your most expensive component – which for a house you will need around 2Kw – 4Kw and it will cost you around USD 2 000 – 3 000, unless you can find one in a scrap yard, which I have done before on occasion. There is place coming out of Bangkok if you are heading up to the North East past Saraburi/Pak Chong/Korat that stocks scrapped hospital equipment – I have often found some pretty good dc/ac inverters/power supplies amongst that lot.

Its like keeping livestock – the windmill turbine is only one part in a number of parts required, and if any one is not up to mark, then the whole chain suffers. I have 2 x

5Kw units which supply all power for the house through a series of old submarine batteries I purchased in Australia about 10 years ago. I store a total of 6Kilo Amps (6000 amps at 96vdc).

The windmills produce 120Vac at 5Kw at 36kmph wind speed which gives them an rpm of around 230 from 3 x 9 metre blades.

On average though I’d say that they are producing around 3.0Kw – 3.3Kw, which relates to a wind speed of around 24kmph and an rpm of 138.

Cut-in speed is 19kmph at which point they will produce 2.0 kilowatts

I am fully booked until end of November, and can then take on 2 more orders for the rest of the year.

In any event, before I make or say anything:

- how much water do you need to pump, and how high do you need to pump it above the pump, and how far down is it below the pump. Then we can work out how many kilowatts you need.

- For your workers – do you know how many amps are required – I presume they are cooking on gas woks, and just using the power for radio/TV and lighting. Is that correct.

When I have that info then we can consider how much power you need and how much you need to store in batteries.

Do you have a dam to store the water in?

Tim

There is no sense in importing livestock from Australia or Europe to breed for milkers or beef in Thailand. The economics of it are totally senseless.

The best stock in Thailand has for the last 10 or so come from Chok Chai. You need to get in early and “book” what you want – before it gets shipped down to Malaysia.

There is also no sense in using top grade (read as: expensive) imported European semen. The high net producers from Europe are ideal for European environmental conditions. They are no good for Thailand. It is interesting to note that having got feed back from friends in Holland and the UK, which has had one of the hottest June months ever on record this year (with temperatures in the 30’s, which is what we have everyday here year round), that their high production milkers are down nearly 40% for the month. Point made I think.

And for the lofty thinkers amongst us – the concept of climate controlled barns to sustain European high producers has been attempted in Thailand. It is fraught with problems on a commercial basis – in other words: not worth the hassle.

Your best bet is semen from a bull with an established and verifiable herd (e.g. Chok Chai – but there are others).

In my humble opinion – and after nearly 15 years of profitably running a dairy farm in NE/Thailand I think I can comment – you are going to be best off with a mixed breed animal consisting of:

Friesian (Aussie, New Zealand or even better Dutch – which is where the others come from) about 30 % - 40%, mixed with Sahiwal (from India or Pakistan) 40% and about 20% of any of the local “indigenous cows”.

The importance of the “local genetic input” if I can use that expression, is that its genes, absolutely useless for milk, are very resistant to local parasites & bugs. Its digestive system is also well adapted to local forage and gives the animal an ability to deal with the low local protein content.

That all said, there is no ideal “milker” or beef animal. The ideal “milker” or beef animal is determined by YOUR farming practise and how YOU are planning to feed and manage that cow.

Most of my “milkers” are over 70% Fresian with about 15% - 20% Sahiwal and the rest Thai indigenous, whereas my “beef” cows are about 50% Friesian, 40% Sahiwal and the last 10% local. Why, because the one is breed for weight and the other is breed for metabolic rate – and both are fed very different diets.

I repeat: there is no ideal “milker” or beef animal. The ideal “milker” or beef animal in Thailand is determined by YOUR farming practise and how YOU are planning to feed and manage that animal. What may be good for you, will not be good for someone else who has a different management policy.

Stay away from “foreigners” – like us, they take a long time to adapt to the environment.

Tim

You can get them from all the hardware stores that sell things like pumps, sprinklers, fencing material ect ect………. Find the guy who collects the milk in your area and have a chat with him.

They’re not expensive – the whole kit should not be more Baht 1000 and most of them can be run off car batteries or AC house power. For that you will get the control unit and a roll of multi filament chord around 250 long.

I have never had one stolen but I cant speak for your area. I would think though that so long as the field is in view of the house then you should be okay.

Tim