Maizefarmer

RDC - good move in my opinion.

The subject was taking a life on its own, and the idea of consolidating it under its own heading helps to sort it out from the rest of the threads.

Tim

JB

I'll PM it to you

Tim

CHOWNAH

No not EVERYWHERE – you have to have a suitable place to locate the turbine. It must b as high as possible (at least 16m above ground level and not “shaded” for a good 100m in all directions (by buildings, trees ect…. and in the case of a house up against the side of a hill you’d want to be a good 400m or more away from the hill).

What do you mean by a “drained battery pack” – do you mean drained in terms of voltage or in terms of amperage?

For the purposes of understanding what I meant when stating that a 90% charge could be achieved, I meant from an amperage drained battery, not from a voltage drained battery.

So yes – to answer your question, I do mean it’s possible to achieve a 90% charge on an amperage drained battery, and for the purposes of this discussion (i.e. using batteries to store dc power for ac supply) a drained battery is one that cannot supply the peak ac current load without a voltage drop.

In practical terms you do not want your voltage dropping at peak load to less than around 10.23Vdc from a 12Vdc power pack (absolute least been 10Vdc – if your battery gets any less than that you are quickly going to sulphate all the cell plates and ruin the battery).

The battery system I was describing can be used to power ANYTHING. It makes no difference if it’s a water pump, a light, a fridge, a TV …..whatever. Current draw is current draw – the power pack sees a load – it cares little one way or the other if it’s a pump or a light drawing that load (except perhaps on startup with a Delta wired motor as most of the cheap Thaia dn Chinese motors are, but then again, if the job is done properly the inverter will buffer that - so we're getting way out the scope of this discussion).

But in the context of the discussion and the figures I gave, I described what in my experience was practical - against a background of intended domestic usage – which as we now know, is exactly what Matt had in mind.

So back to the original question… and to put it into the words you used when you asked – yes, so long as you can site correctly, and store the power correctly (i.e. sufficient batteries for amperage and voltage) it is realistic to be able to generate enough power from a 3KW turbine to support a house on a daily basis with the weather conditions in Isaan - and to be as exact as I can, see the next paragraph:

The windiest months up here are from late September thru to early May, and for those 8 months you should be able to draw about 65% - 70% of all your power from the turbine 100% of the time, or 100% of your power 65-70% of the time. From May through to September (4 months) you should be able to get 30-35% of your power.

"Time" means the time one would expect to have the lights on in a house, the fridge running, the TV on, the computer running per day.

And now we are back to a whole set of variables i.e. what is an average house, what is average power consumption, do you use 100watt bulbs or 40 or 60watt bulbs? Do you have an electric stove, do you have an electric boiler…… and on and on it can go, which was why I gave Matt an example , but asked him to come back with something more specific so that I could be more accurate.

MATT

For the figures I you have supplied assuming a max of 1.5KW p/hour for the inverter – baring in mind the usage you have in mind – which will a) seldom be running at the max 1.5KW load (average house or not!) the inverter is capable of – if ever, and is not throughout the whole day in any case – a 3KW turbine will be able to provide enough AMPS to prevent problems from voltage drop.

I will email details to you later this week.

LANNAREBIRTH

Have English manual for the L2602DT-M – do you want a whole manual or are you looking for a certain section – can copy you the section you need by email , no prob’s but will have to post you a copy of the whole manual if you need.

Front grill – which one do you have: the early models have a grill that runs the full length of the front has holes for the lights, whereas the later ones have a lower grill section around the lights, and a higher grill section where the badge is, which is separated from the lower section by a strip of tin work that forms the front cowling.

And of course, is it grey/silver in colour or is it white?

In both cases can supply the genuine article or can supply a Chinese made “copy” – which is much cheaper.

Fory Degrees

I didnt read your posting correctly - you were looking for less than 50KW.

Off the shelf I can offer you 3KW, 5KW & 12KW.

Water pumping - yes hybrid with solar is always the best. No, I am not a solar specialist but can do it. The reason why I haven't solar on the itenary list is because its so expensive its not worth stocking the panels in the hope that someone will come along and buy a system. Secondly, from a business perspective, I really can't mark it up much and so profit only comes from installation.

Anyhow - looking at the issue of water: depending on the volume you need to pump and the NPSH (Net positive suction head) you can get away with a Wind powered system only - with as little as 1KW - which is my domestic figure, and provides provides us with 2Kilo/L p/day to store in a tower at 16 meters ( giving 1.3 bar pressure at the shower head: as much as you'd get from any European plumbed shower). Heating is from copper tubes lying in inverted chromed steel gutters - placed as close as one can practicaly get to the focal point of a half circle!. The "water panel" doubles up on its self, giving a toal length of 53meters of 0.5" copper tubing. Flow rate 16 meters per minute. Temp increase p/circulation 17degrees. max temp achieveable on a 26degree day = 79degree Celcius.

I done some basic clac's - for the local Amphur office in 2003, and those figures will give you an idea of whats required power wise:

With 2KW/p/hour they could irrigate gardens covering 2rai (just under 1acre) - and the conclusion was (based on average sunshine hours for Loei annuly) they could get the job done using a 3KW W/turbine suppling 10 x 80Amp 24Vdc truck battery setup, converted to 220 Vac - that would also provide enough storage to run the office lights, fridge and and 4 computers for 7 hours should they have a power faliure - after which they would have to resort back to mains line ac power.

That should give you an idea of whats PRACTICALY possible (I keep going on about whats practical don't I) with a 3KW turbine and 10 truck batteries storing a total of 800 AMPS. After or loses real efficeincy was quite high and that system would run the 220 Vac supply for 10 hours with everything switched on and consuming abround 65AMPs p/hour - Assuming a 90% plus battery charge (easily achievable up here in Isaan most days of the year).

A larger turbine will speed up the rate at which you can charge the power pack (i.e. batteries), and the size of the battery pack (AMP wise) will determine how much power you can store.

Use this rule Matt, for domestic cum office enviroments: W/Turbine average output (average, not peak) should be 100% of total consumption at any one time (i.e. all lights on, kettle on, fridge on, tele on, hi fi on, computer on, boiler/shower on) and add 60%.

That will give you a Watt or Kilowatt figure.

Multiply that figure by the number of hours you want (or expect to have that power avalible).

That gives you the TOTAL KW required.

Now take that figure and divide it by 220 (Vac). That will give you the TOTAL AMPS required.

Now go and look for the biggest batteries you can find - all of the same voltage that will add up to that last AMP figure, using Ohms law to ensure your AMPS x VOLTAGE gives you a figure the same as you more than the KW figure you calculated (before you ask - yes, I have already built into the equation a decent efficiency factor i.e. the 60% figure given earlier).

Come back to me with you figures and I'll be happy to advise/share with you what I think is the most PRACTICAL way to go about generating and storing that energy, bust as said - for a domestic cum small office enviroment I think 800 Amps @24VDC is just fine for average Thai conditions.

Tim

Forty Degrees

Hybrid - in what sense? You mean wind and sunlight?

No, but I see no reason why it couldn't be done.

The largest W/Turbine I am geared up to make on a commercial basis is 12 Kw. I could double up the coils and magnets, moutning roters back to back on the same shaft I suppose, in multiples of 12 KW, but things start getting very heavy indeed.

The tower would have to be redesigned for the extra weight and the turbine blades would need to be redesigned as well for the additonal torque loading (lengthened). Optimising blade profile is a long, complicated and specialist "profession". The blades for my 12KW units I had designed in Singapore by consultants - using torque figures and wind veleocities I gave them - it's not cheap, you're looking at four 0 zeros on the end of the figure (baht) to get blades designed properly and not worth it unless the cost can be offset against loads of orders.

Nothing to stop experimenting though - so yes, can build a 50KW turbine for you, it would work, but how efficient it would be I can't say. My 12KW units offer 79% efficiency.

I run every single electrical appliance on the farm (house and workshop) off power stored in old submarine batteries - except 4 things a) the Alfa Laval compressor and vacum motors for the milking machine, and the lathe & milling machine, and welding transformer in the workshop. These 4 units are driven off a 25KVA diesel generator as they are all 3phase 460Vac, whereas the W/turbines are delta/star wired for single phase, and so is the battery power output modules - all wired for single phase.

50KW - why so much power Forty Degrees - 2 x 12Kw gives me all I need.

Do you realise the amount of money you would have to spend on batteries to store the output from a 50KW turbine for it to make sense and be viable. It's another example of theory versus practicality. I actually get asked this high power output question quite often - interest quickly wains you you start adding up the costs to regulate 50Kw output for storage in batteries - you would have to use 100 - 120KW thyrister rectifiers to get 50KW (rms) - wow, the cost of those in Thailand!!! Huge Huge money - really big money!!

In theory posssible - in practise, to do it properly - mmmmmm, big project. Much much easier to run 3 or 4 x 12KW units spread out over a couple of acres - that I could do easily, and it actually makes better sense - it gives you lots of redundancy.

I'd love to give 50KW a go, but in all honesty, its beyond what I would want to undertake on a professional basis.

Tim

Fair comment and quite reasonable..........

Tim

Ha Ha Nam Kao......

Tell me - does anyone know why the "Forum Policeman" feels it neccesseary to remove from my posting an email address that was given to assist someone else?

By the way - did you get it before it was scrubbed out?

Tim

This thread about “what breed” and “how to improve”

It theory its great – in practise, it’s a bit of a no brainer…….

The definition of the “perfect cow” has little to do with the amount of milk or beef it produces. The best cow is the one that produces the most (milk or beef) for the least Baht cost.

And now a parameter that no-one has mentioned so far becomes important…..

At what point do we realise we have reached the highest yield for the least cost – what is the highest yield and what is the least cost. Both those parameters are variable and change. The closest you can get to ideal is to make comparative studies. Here’s an example:

Give 2 farmers 2 different milk cows. or – if it were possible – give both identical cows.

Farmer A’s cow that yields 40 kg p/day @ Baht 10.78 p/ kg.

Farmer B’s cow yields 27 kg p/day @ Baht 8 p/kg

Based on a farm gate price of x, say Baht12 p/kg, do the clac’s:

Farmer B’s cow is producing 30% less milk on A’s yield, but B’s profit is about 20% up and, here the real practical relivance is: Farmer B’s margin is double Farmer A’s i.e. Farmer B can absorb double the fall in farm gate prices before he starts to loose money, and he can absorb double the increase in input costs before he lasts to loose profit.

So which is better – it’s a complete no brainer.

As I said, it makes no difference if it’s the same cow in 2 different experiments (one after the other), or 2 different cows been compared, or 2 identical cows. It still stands that for a given cost the better cow is Farmer B’s.

The closest we will ever come to defining the perfect or best cow, is by comparing what a cow produces (not what it is capable of producing), versus what it costs to produce.

At some point you have to make a decision to go with what you have i.e. Even if a better breed comes along, it’s only better for a given set of conditions, and on a commercial farm it takes years to change things round.

Even if there is a better option, to change over to it and sustain the same margins could take more than 10years – like people who buy a new car because it uses less fuel. Oh yer – and just how far do they have to drive before they recover the cost difference in fuel versus what was lost by selling the car to get one that saved half a litre of fuel every 100km’s!!

I often read articals about this or that other cow which has performed so well in Uni research programmes, but in reality I could never use that cow on this farm – the theory is great, the practice is near to impossible: the changeover would takes 10 years.

The question I first ask myself is this: what is been evaluated here i.e. is a breed been developed for a given set of forage feeds, and how applicable are those forage feeds to my area/condition (can they grow and what do they cost to grow). Or are we looking at a cow that is been evaluated over time with different forages. Both studies can be used to evaluate a genetic mix, but both are valid for a set of very well defined conditions and unless those conditions can be replicated on your farm you stand a good chance of been no better off.

Then there is another consideration: the studies that are taking place now will take 15 – 20 years to filter down to farmers on a commercial scale, by which time climate changes may well have moved the goal posts.

Climate changes!!! – yup, they’re coming big time guys – the climate is changing, its getting hotter and it will get hotter and hotter in South East Asia as China fires up its economy and the coal fired power stations that got with that economic developement.

China fires up at least 1 new coal fired power station every week!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a section of the animal husbandry profession in Thailand that believes within 50 years, no matter what your dairy heard is made up of, it will need to be kept in climate controlled barns to be productive

As a commercial dairy farmer my interests and priorities lie at this stage in the farm foreseen future, not so much in breeding better genetics, but more so reducing energy input. My opinon is that commercial farmers stand to gain more on studies investigating reduced energy consumption – by far our biggest expense.

There are so many different ways of looking at the subject, and there are so many different variables that affect how studies are evaluated and there are so many economic unknowns in the future …… I wonder if indeed it is possible to improve livestock to the point that all these factors can be accommodated. Me thinks not – me thinks not, me thinks you are best off having a thorough understanding of the animal you have, and use that knowledge to manage that animal productively for the conditions you have – and use your research time investigating ways to reduce your energy costs – a benefit you will realise long before you realise the benefits of re-establishing a herd.

Tim

JB – wife suggests you contact a guy called Arthur Rickards.

He’s an Aussie based at New England Uni (Australia) – he’s a geneticist who was contracted in the late 1990’s to the Thai Department of Livestock to study the commercial viability of breeding Water Buffalo, and also the commercial viability of mixing them with farm cattle!

The contact details she has for him apparently are an email address:

<email removed - please contact poster by PM for contact details.>

She says the guy knows his subject well, and will be able to tell you where to source good quality commercially viable stock from. and what to look out for if you are intending to breed on a commercial basis

Tim

mmmmmmmmm.............Afrikander, that would be my choice out of the bunch- sounds like a real tough animal - and the South Africans have really got their act together when it comes to livestock breeding. With the poor state the RSA currency is in at the moment - one should be able to pick a few of them up at a fair price. Thats the other thing - would cost a fair bit to get them here, but looks as though they could live off anything.

Tim

MF.....how do you think any of these breeds would get on in Los.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...aford/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...ander/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...ntred/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/BRANGUS/index.htm

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/...aster/index.htm

JB – I use Excel – computers are not my big skill. I employ a professional accountant to do the end of year books to satisfy the taxman.

Nope – the cows are kept in feedlots.

Down one side of the feedlot are trees for shade, in the centre are steel structures to support corrugated tin roofing (8.2m off the ground and 30m x 15m) – no sides. Along the opposite side (to the trees) are concrete feed troughs – a mixer loads them up twice a day. One side does open onto a 10 rai field – of short rough indigenous grasses (and weeds!), but it has no feed value – just space. The cows may drift out there during the morning and evening, but come the sun or rain, if not eating, they spend their time under the raised roof.

The reason: if they were grazing in the fields I would have little control on what they ate and which cow ate what. Okay I could put up an electric fence for strip grazing, but the problem with that is I would have to keep replanting because ultimately they pull the roots up. Forage productivity is much higher controlling when it cut and how much is cut – and lastly, I can mix forages and silages to feed as per requirement (e.g. milkers and dry cows do not get the same feed mixes, pregnant animals get different mixes to calves ect etc…

In summary: feedlot feeding is as you suggested in your last sentence, more productive at this scale. There may well be scales of economy above or below mine, that mechanized “cut & Carry” is not viable (for economic or other reasons), but at this scale – it is. As a rule – the larger the herd, the stronger the economic argument for mechanized “cut & carry” – in particular in Thailand where high quality forages need to be managed carefully to be sustainable.

RDC – Yer, you bet – it goes to show something I am a great beliver in i.e. you can take the most mixed up horrible looking cow (genetically wise) and it will go on to outperform your “best” “most expensive” carefully bred/from expensive semen milker!

You have a whole herd of Bht25K plus “specials” and then on the spur of the moment you buy some scraggy old thing at the auction for Bht10-15K and she goes on to yield more milk than all the others! It’s happened to me many times in the past RDC.

The challenge then of course is to find out just why. My belief is that its not because you have luckily stumbled across some exotic high performance genetically perfect animal, but because your “management model” (whatever it is) is something that that particular cow “tunes” into and is very comfortable with.

Yes – I agree with you 100% - skinnier cows tend to produce more in Thailand than their fatter counterparts, and you’re dead right – it’s down to environmental temp and metabolism – they suffer less in the high heat and humidity.

Production versus Demand – same problems up here. At one point it became so bad that many of the small scale farmers (i.e. 5 – 25 milkers) would run at a loss unless they could feed their livestock for free – and so they were allowed to run feee in the bush or pegged to road sides. Any expense 9 other than the tin of concentrate at milking time) ruined the guys margin.

So all the small producers went out of business, and now the Co-Ops are screaming for milk. Point is – this country as a huge deficit of milk - and even the imported dried products do not compensate enough. Rumours about the farm gate price going up rife at the moment – figures of Baht 2 – 3 p/kg are common – will it happen, will we see 20 – 25% increase happen overnight? Me think’s not, but I do believe that sometime next dry season we will see perhaps Bht 1 – 1.2 p/kg increase occur. I sure hope so.

For those of you who don’t know – we sell our milk by the kg, but its price in the shop is much higher and by metric volume – not mass.

Tim

Correction - there is one big commercial type - in the true sense of "commercial" quail farm at:

Anake Quail Farm

57/1 Moo 2

Tambon Pa Ngiel

Ang Thong 14000

Tel 035 611444

01 6525686

Processed quail - you do mean, cleaned & plucked as one would buy a fresh chicken in the market - look around your local daily market. Go the the fresh chicken seller and ask them to point out the stall where quail is sold - if they don't sell themselves, they're sure to know.

Or look for the quail egg seller - who'll be able to tell you where to get the birds from.

They are still around - despite farm stocks been decimated by the bird flu.

If you are looking for "processed" - as in packed and wrapped - what sort of quantity would you be looking for - an ice box full or a truck full.

When I said commercial, perhaps I gave the impression of large commercial chicken farm size operations. I dont beleive there are any that size (at lest none I know of up around Loei).

The 2 quail farms I know of around Loei (where various types of wild fowl, pheasent and wild duck are also kept) are not that size, but very much smaller, with I guess around 1000 - 2000 birds at most.

Tim

TT

Quails are Nohk Grataa (or Nok Kataa) นกกระทา , and pigeons are Nohk Pihrahp พิราบ.

The eggs are commercially farmed and as TT says, are a popular addition to soups - simply as an egg added, or as is often the way they are served in soups (in Isaan at least): boiled first, peeled and wrapped in ground pork, to be boiled again or deep fried. They cost next to nothing - nothing fancy about them here - more likely to be eaten by peasent farmer.

Tim

Yes I 2nd JB - post here for us all to see...

JB, 2004-05 turn over was Baht22 861 733.26 – that includes both dairy, beef, and the ag engineering side of the business - by training I am an ag engineer and a side line to the farm is building water pump systems, higher rise ag sprayers, providing service & parts for small Iseki and Kubota tractors, and I construct small wind turbines.

Income is approx 1/3 engineering and 2/3 farm

Minus labour costs,, minus tax, minus farm equipment maintenance, minus fuel (my biggest expense by far), minus vet fees (yup – I pay the other half for her “professional services” – like we all do one way or the other!), minus house mortgage (but not land – we finished paying off in late 2003), the company netted

Baht4.381 311.88 (2004-5) and 2005-06 is looking like 9% up on that.

- which is effectively what I paid myself 2004 - 05, out of which comes the kids education, Baht 200k + p/annum – and shortly to go up to around Baht 1.8mill p/annum (the oldest I am very happy to say is off to Uni in the USA – which is not cheap), family holiday overseas once or twice a year, food, and personal income tax. Although I am a permanent resident I still pay a lot of tax no way round that one.

Is it all work and no money – perhaps by European standards (because I do put in huge hours - even by dairy farming standards which is a 24/7 lifestyle, but it’s okay by Thai standards. But then again, the overwhelming majority of European farmers would go out of business overnight were it not for the subsidies the EU gives them. Here we get next to nothing from the government.

Would I make more if I worked as an ag engineer in Europe? At this stage in my “career” yes, I proberbly would be, but like hel_l would I be having as much fun as I have here. I wouldn’t give this life(style) up for anything – and I think I echo the feeling of every farang farmer – commercial or hobby farmer.

Korat Correct

Running to a standstill – you mean pushing the milkers to their yield limits?

(did I understand that correctly?)

No – but must be honest with all and say yes, I am guilty of doing so in the past in my quest for more milk/more money – and I learn’t a very hard lesson. Burnout on livestock within 8-10 years – cruel anywhere, more so in Thailand because the conditions here to start with not very milker friendly – high heat constantly, and high humidity. Thailand is not the ideal environment for dairy cows – which makes management of the cow a far more significant issue than it is in Europe.

I think I am running the dairy herd at around 70% of its real potential – partly because my management model is very well sorted for that yield (i.e. cost of input versus what I am earning in milk yield), and partly, because to increase yields I would have to start messing around with a well established 44 week and 305 day cycle – both of which depending on the actual cow, I have found they are well settled into and comfortable with….

Regards Finshing and keeping.

I have both beef and dairy.

AI is practised.

Dairy males end up as veal at 45 – 52 days at export approved abbatoirs – that really is all I can do with them on this farm.

I have 3 calving seasons one year followed by 2 the next year, then back to 3. That’s the way the herd is structured – which along with crop/forage production is a cycle which has taken about 9 years to get both working in sync.

Although I don’t like to calve dairy cows, knowing they are going to go for beef, the reality is as you well know, you have to calve to sustain milking – so depending what the abbatoir has earmarked, female dairy could go as veal, and if not stay on the farm to become milkers.

All beef stock goes to export approved abbatoirs.

No, I don’t buy in calves at all for either dairy or beef. There is a sound economic basis to that kind of farming in quota controlled Europe, but in Thailand where Thaksin & Co funds fee trade of dried dairy products and little to no help to farmers, to run a farm successfully as a commercial venture, there is a limit on the amount of statergies you can successfully adopt on one farm - mixing “finishing” with calves to be kept for beef , and calves for milk, becomes complicated.

Old milkers – not much good for the export abbatoirs - are slaughtered on the farm as well, out comes the shotgun, and then the long Spainish cured ham knife………. and the local butcher takes it off to market. I have an issue with a cow that has served this farm well throughout her life – there is no way she will leave this farm to be tied to a stake and clubbed to death as so often happens in rural Thailand – even in some of the local abbatoirs. That’s a personal sentimental thing.

In summary: I breed my replacements (AI), both beef and dairy, and anything that does not fall into the beef or dairy plan, is out the door as soon as possible.

40 000kg from grass – just for interest, how many hectares/acres were required to support that and what was the methodology – strip grazing or cut ‘n carry?

My figures vary from 33 000 – 52 000kg a year – all feedlot from mechanized “cut ‘n carry” from very roughly 300 acres – although a large portion of that goes to the dairy side of things as well (I’d have to work it out to be sure but I would reckon beef/dairy wise the grown forage is split 57/43 percentage wise, or around 130 to 140 acres to support the beef production).

I always have my eyes & ears open for a breed that has the potential to offer more, but I think it fair to say that the pure breds are not the best choice for Thailand. Freisian/Holstein mixes can do well (i.e. it is relatively easy to put in place managment models in this enviroment to support that mix of livestock). Pure Friesian ........mmmmm, not so sure about that - I'd be cautious personally.

Pure Holstein, also not sure - but it would be far easier and a better bet to manage in Thailand than a pure Freisian.

Tim

This guy drove around the block while the bomb squad was on the scene, no one noticed anything unusual.

Looks like my old neighbors bike in Los Angeles. Can you tell me where the photo was taken?

If you look at the direction of traffic and the english signs you'll see it's not Thailand. Duhh but we knew that dippy! ha

Oh I see................................. nothing to do with the fact that theres a crash helmet on the "bike"

I have to be careful here …….. if I say its insect ABC, some couch farmer will use the info on the net…. and come back with a document contradicting what I said.

Anyhow – not skin anthrax, which is still common in Thailand amongst cattle, and which often repeats it’s self in the same animal/herd which feed repeatedly on the same ground season after season. Its seldom seen in cattle which are fed “cut & carry”, usually amongst cattle that feed on land as the spores are in the soil ect ect…..

Theres quite a bit around, and easily treated with antibiotics. The spots you describe could easily be thought of as anthrax, were it not for the fact that you say they are all on the back – which is not the case with skin anthrax.

What you have is certainly a Hypoderma bovine infection, but which vector and which parasite its leaving behind is the question.

I asked about long grass/versus short grass because some of the vectors in Thailand hang onto grass stalks (i.e. long or longish grass), attach themselves to the legs, and then migrate under the hide upwards to the back – which helps explain the concentration in certain areas – in your case the back. That vector is not found in short grass and is not a problem with “cut & carry” methods – it quickly drops off.

So that would appear to eliminate a whole series of potential vectors.

But Hypoderma bovine infection can come from a whole host of vectors in South East Asia, and in your case as the cattle are feedlot fed, I think we are looking at a fly as opposed to a wasp, only because the wasp vectors which are in Thailand tend to not like the dusty areas around feedlots. Thats a generalisation, and of cause there will be exceptions. So which fly, I haven’t worked out.

I was going to ask you which antibiotic your vet used – but a useless question in Thailand because a lot of vets will give whatever they have in their bag, and secondly in Thailand the active ingredient of anti biotics is limited – i.e. a hundred different tradenames all using one of half a dozen or so active ingredients – and yes, you can use antibiotics to combat a lot of parasitical problems.

So no – the question is not answered yet, and I am going to have to ask around – the missus just shakes her had and says “mai loo, send a photo”.

Will come back with something more specific in a day or so…

Are the lesions all up near the neck i.e. out of tail reach? That often explains a lot i.e. a flying insect that needs to settle down undisturbed out of tail reach.

Tim

Korat Correct

Currently I have 512 rai of maize. In the wet season it serves a dual prupose

a)cut daily with a forage harvester and feed fresh as a mix with fresh cut Ruzi (of which at the moment I have 246 rai.

B)About ½ way through the wet season I start cutting both to ensile for late wet season and dry season – the “model” been a gradual change over from a predominantly fresh forage diet towards an ensiled diet starting about now and been completed by the end of the 1st week October.

The Ruzi is crop is worked through about every 45 days at which point the field is fertalised – increasing so until yield versus the amount of fertiliser required to maintain growth rate, tips it over “economic point” – which is around 45cm/45 days

That is balanced against rainfall and irrigation costs, which on average means the crop is replanted approx every 30 – 36 months. After 2 Ruzi growings on average the field is left fallow for a season.

The ruzi is maintained in the dry season at a much low growth rate, but the maize is not. I have done it before, but on balance the cost of having to dump huge amounts of water outweighs what is returned in milk yields. I’ve tried it, only to establish wether or not it would be possible to stay in the black is I had to.

Livestock are fed twice per day and have access to roughage throughout.

Concentrates – mixed primarily from fishmeal or other high bypass type protein base. Percentages vary from as low as 14% to as high as 21% from cow to cow – i.e. pregnant/not pregnant, dry and what point it is in the lactation cycle.

Yup, commercial concentrates are not cheap. Mixing yourself from base products is an option, but it’s the old story of scale of economies i.e. not worth mixing yourself unless the bulk you mix is large enough to justify the cost is hiring a truck to get down to a fish factory (or fishing port) on the coast to purchase 20 or 30 tons of fish by product. You could produce 21% concentrate (including cost of other additives and binder) down by about 40% - 50% less than what a comparable high by pass would cost to buy from CP, SAHA or one of the other big Thai feed mill companies.

I think we have a misunderstanding………… I was not trying to answer your question but add to what you had said – which by and large I agreed with. Regards your observations on Brahman – yes, the average Brahman you see in Thailand lives off a poor diet and is often in a “heng leng” state. My comment was, that this was not always because of the limitation of the cow per say, but the consequence of how it is “managed” by the farmer, who in Thailand, is up against the wall right from the start on 2 points: namely poverty, which limits the facilities/land and grazing he can offer that animal, and secondly, education and lack of animal husbandry skills.

Address the above problems (easier said than done!) and have in place a good mangement policy (for that breed), and I belive it has the potential to be economically viable. That was the point I wastrying to make - which to a large extent it is my opinion applies to ALL cattle in Thailand - choose it for the conditions you have and can control, and managment it correctly for those conditions. A low potentional breed managed carefully will give you less hassle and better margins, than a high potential breed choosen for its "potential" but not supported with the right conditions

.

Tim

I have always been a strong believer that there is no ideal cow of Thailand (beef or milk wise).

There are a few (literally a handful) of Holsteins kept by some of the big commercial companies which produce around over 8000kg’s on a 44 week cycle – in Thailand.

Take that cow out of its climate controlled barn and its yield will drop to less than 2000kg p/44 weeks.

At the other extreme I have purchased 1year olds and 2 year old on 1st or 2nd cycle that had good body scores and were well proportioned for milk yield, but which I would never choose because of what they were mad up from – and have gone on to produce much more than some of my carefully bred Holstein/Friesian.

The point is – the productivity of milk cows in Thailand is VERY much down to the management model adopted by the farmer on a case by case basis, as opposed to the “type” of cow it is.

Can I get my stock to produce more milk?

I could double the yield of about 20% of the cows, and get yield up by more than 50% on about half the cows and the rest up by about 30% - across the cycle.

But the management model that I would have to adopt to achieve that, would mean I tighter margins & less profit at the end of the day

What is a fairly commonly accepted rule here in Thailand is that using straws of imported semen from “high yield” stock in Europe/Australia can be a complete waste. The genetics are very much suited for the conditions under which they are kept, and not Thailand, and the adoption of European livestock management models, has time and time again shown to fail in Thailand – simply because farm gate prices of produce (i.e. milk & beef) are so much lower than they are in Europe - where in any case milk farmers would go out of business overnight - using those same carefully thought out management models were it not for the ###### quota and subsidy system that keeps theirs heads above water….

So distorted is that system that it is actually cheaper for the Thai government to import processed dry/skimmed milk & dairy products, than it is for the Government to maintain farm gate prices for guys like myself and RandomChances (and all other Thai dairy farmers for that matter…).

RDC – next time the milk farmers go down to Government house to turn their urns out on the front lawn, shall we join them with a few urns of our own??

I use:

http://www.tmd.go.th/index_eng.php

This is the Thai Met Department Homepage, and to be more exact - for Isaan/North east area go to

http://www.tmd.go.th/~rwcne/

But there is another page - somewhwere - which is predominently in Thai, and from that page you can id individual weather stations/points which may be little more than remote/unmanned/isolated instrument boxes that collect/collate all the data that is used to make up the daily weather forecasts, and look specifically at the raw met data it is collecting........

I have a sneaky feeling it is somewhere on the Hydrological website as the box I have on my property is right down on the river bank, and measures river height and water flow, as well as the weather.

Its been in place since 1951.

...............now thats one Thai Dept that I think has its act together rather well - the Thai met office.

My experiance of their reporting/forecasting is that it is quite accurate.

Tim

Yes - large amount of rain recently.

The worst hit Loei just over a week ago with farms in low lying areas (e.g. myself at the base of the NationalPark - between 2 sets of hills!) getting a drenching we haven't had for sometime.

Indications are that more is on the way for September - and by more I mean more than usual for this time of the year.

Are we heading for another El Nino (were you around in 1997??), or will next dry season turn out to be a La Nina (when the Pacific warms up) and we get exceptionaly dry conditions in the North East.

All weather prophets with correct predictions - name your "tamboon"

Tim

Suggest you Contact the Clock Museum at Vimanmek Palace, corner of Rajavithi & Rajasima Roads (Bangkok) – where King Rama V’s grandfather clock collection is maintained and put on display for the public. King Rama V was a prolific collector of clocks.

Unfortunately I don’t have a phone number – but I know it exists because I went inside it in April while on my quaterly dreaded BKK trip!

They would certainly be able to tell you who to contact in BKK – if not be willing to undertake the work themselves.

Tim

Forty Degrees

Could be one of 3 things (all insect related) - but more background required.

- is it a seasonal or a year round occurance?

- are the cattle feeding in long or short grass?

Tim

Mobi

I have been cattle farming in Isaan (far NorthEast near loei) about 15 years now - a combination of both beef and dairy. It is very much a buisness and is run as such.

I have the European "luxuries" I want, the kids go to good Thai private schools (one is off to Uni in the USA next - I have been able to save enough to finance that), as a family we go on holiday to Europe or the USA twice, a year blah blah, blah blah.......

So - yes, it can be done withseed capital, prep work, business plan for the conditions and limitations, lots of hard work, motivation ..... and everything thats goes towards contributing to the success of any venture.

Get back to the forum when you have answers to the questions asked earlier - I'll drop you a personal message in your mailbox sometime over the next day or so, with more detail regards what info will help you evaluate what the land is good for, or what sort of land you should be looking for (as far as cattle go).

Tim