Ryan754326

30 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

This is not about road traffic accidents or drowning, it’s about preventable needless deaths that are not caused by accident but by a virus that can be neutralized by a tested and safe vaccine.

 

It’s not particularly difficult to understand this concept.

How is it different if we can easily prevent an accident by eliminating the cause?
Helmets are mandatory. seatbelts are mandatory. So why not just outlaw swimming pools, bicycles, and any toy that is small enough to fit in a child’s mouth? Wouldn’t that prevent needless deaths too?

I know a few people who actually think motorcycles should be outlawed. They think they’re frivolous, dangerous toys, that serve no real purpose as far as practical transportation is concerned.

Its hard to argue with that assertion, but I just happen to like riding them, and I’m willing to accept the risks. 
 

If the vaccines actually neutralized covid, I’d be far more sympathetic to the mandates.
I was happy to get the first two shots, but I’ve survived the disease itself, and I don’t like the idea of being cast out of society if I won’t sign up for the yearly subscription. 

18 hours ago, internationalism said:

There is a difference between a jab side effects, which might be difficult to test and measure and between long covid. 
first, there are symptoms, which can be measured very precisely from the beginning of infection to the end of long covid. Those are impossible to show strong and for a long time, if just nocebo. Patient might be hospitalised for a long time, constantly observed, tested and medicated. Will talk to many experienced doctors, at least once per day. Referred to specialists. Especially if his subjective report contradicts laboratory results. Many symptoms of covid and long covid are neurological. Some might be referred further to clinician psychologist and psychotherapist. Observed and treated for psychosis. 
Any pulmonary infection can last weeks to clear and long term effects on lungs can be up to 6 months to fully recover to the original capacity. There might be scar tissue in lungs. Some patients will become chronic

There are those who have been hospitalized with obvious, provable symptoms of long covid, and then there’s are a lot more who say they “just don’t feel the same since they got infected”. 
 

I know none of the former group. Lots of the latter group. 
 

Seems like half of the people I know suffer from fatigue and brain fog in the best of times. Now they have something to blame it on. Some of them are still sitting at home collecting money from the government as a result of their “illness”.

I don’t see it as being much different from a soft tissue injury, in many cases; you can tell your doctor you have whiplash after someone bumped into your car with a shopping cart, and it’s his word against yours. 

20 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

At some point, the covid vaccine will be bundled with the flu jab and it will be an annual thing.  Like it been for decades.  And we'll still probably have people complaining about it! LOL

If an annual flu/covid shot is mandatory to keep my job or go to a restaurant, then I’ll be complaining about it.
I’ve never had a flu shot. Never felt like I needed one, and was never shamed for not getting one. 
My grandma never demanded that I get one to “protect her” either. 
 

I “did my part”, and got my two jabs for the greater good, even though I didn’t believe that I was at any great risk from covid. Enough is enough. 
 

Think of all the social issues we could solve if we forced every teenage girl in the world to get on birth control pills as soon as they hit puberty. It’s been used for decades, and is proven to be safe, so why not?

10 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Pity they never had vaccines for children at that time. Could have saved the lives of 700 US children

We could save even more children’s lives if we outlawed swimming pools. 
 

I’m not necessarily against vaccines for children, but I don’t see any reason why they should be pushed on them considering the relative risk.

There are a lot of terrified people out there who don’t let their kids cross the street, but we don’t let those people make the rules for everyone else’s kids.

10 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

I don't think I would until the pfizer Phase 1/2/3 clinical trials to Study to Evaluate the Safety, Tolerability, and Immunogenicity are completed and findings are reported and submitted in May 2026.

So, a child in America aged 5-14 could die from covid or much more likely to die from the following:

CDC  data source: weblink

 

• 10 times more likely to die from land transport accidents

 

• 7 times more likely to commit suicide

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-01/covid-19-s-death-toll-compared-to-other-things-that-kill-us

 

Can someone chime in and provide the latest covid deaths in children.

Less than 800 deaths under 18 in the United States. 
 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#SexAndAge

11 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Or, we can all get jabbed up and get this pandemic over with.  For those who refuse, they can make the necessary lifestyle changes to avoid human contact altogether.  They are in the minority after all.

No amount of jabs is going to make covid go away. It’s here to stay, and will continue to mutate in those that inevitably get infected, jabbed or not.
You’re so focused on a few anti-vaxxers that you’re forgetting about the huge chunk of the world’s population who simply can’t get a vaccine whether they want it or not. By the time these people do get a jab, there will probably be a new mutation that renders that jab almost useless, as we’ve already seen.
It’s simply impractical to vaccinate 8 billion people every six months. That is the reality. 
 

You really do seem to be in denial about the massive numbers of vaccinated people who are being infected. 
Natural immunity will most likely be what ends the pandemic. Those who are more vulnerable can trust their jabs to give them an extra level of protection. 
Many governments are finally waking up to this fact of life, and readjusting restrictions accordingly. 
 

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Pause for a moment, read and inwardly digest what you wrote here:

 

“If the whole world was 25 and fit, I am confident that covid would have passed by without most of us really noticing, the same way the flu does every year”

 

It seems to have passed your attention that not everyone is 25 years old.

 

How about dealing with the reality that society is full of people of all ages, all body sizes and of all health conditions, each and everyone with an equal right to life.

 

Your whole argument is based on (no surprises here) callous denial of the reality around you.

 

 

I’m well aware that the whole world is not 25 and in good health. What I’m suggesting is that maybe we stop treating the whole world as if they’re 80, and restricting everyone’s lives just the same as those who are actually vulnerable. 
At some point people are going to have to take responsibility for their own safety, and stop expecting the rest of us to suffer in order to protect them. 
There are many people out there who have a good chance of dying if they were to catch the flu as well, but we never locked society down and caused this kind of disruption to peoples lives in order to protect them. They had to live with that risk and do their best to protect themselves. 

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

True.  But you can still get the virus, have no symptoms, and pass it along to those who are vulnerable.  It's all tied together.  We're all in this together.  Sadly.

Those who are seriously vulnerable better learn to accept that they are going to come into contact with covid eventually, unless they are willing to make the necessary lifestyle changes to avoid human contact altogether.
You can post all the studies you want to show that vaccinated people are “less likely” to transmit the virus to others, but what’s happening in the real world should make it obvious that’s there’s really no avoiding it over the long term.
Thankfully the vaccines do a very good job of preventing serious symptoms and death in those who have had them, but then you already knew that. 

I bet most of you would call me crazy if I suggested that this nocebo effect might also be responsible for a good portion of the “long covid” case being reported. 

It’s just my personal observation, but I’ve noticed that many people who weren’t all that worried about covid got over it pretty quickly, while those who were terrified of catching it tend to describe it as “the sickest they’ve ever been”. 
 

I do agree that many of the people who only got the vaccine reluctantly seem to complain more about the side effects, but I don’t see why this effect can’t work both ways. 

11 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Recent data from the U.S. CDC says otherwise, but it does highlight the importance of people getting a third booster dose of an mRNA vaccine in order to better protect against Omicron, and that two doses alone simply aren't enough, especially beyond 6 months after second vaccine doses.

 

Omicron has been a game changer in that regard. Two doses alone aren't cutting it, especially months after the original doses.

 

 

…And the third dose likely won’t cut it after 6 months either, so what we’ll be left with is (essentially) mandatory jabs every six months or so, if we want to be allowed to function normally in society.

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Regardless of any health issue the single biggest factor determining probability of dying from COVID is vaccination status.

 

If you are 25 and fit, you are dramatically less likely to die from COVID if you are vaccinated v unvaccinated.

 

If you are 85 and living in a nursing home, you are dramatically less likely to die from COVID if you are vaccinated v unvaccinated.

 

 

If you are 25 and fit, you are extremely unlikely to die at all, regardless of your vaccination status. If the whole world was 25 and fit, I am confident that covid would have passed by without most of us really noticing, the same way the flu does every year. 

Here are the numbers for Canada by age:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1228632/number-covid-deaths-canada-by-age/

Nearly two thirds (18,801) of those who have died in Canada from covid in the past two years have been in the 80+ group.
If you then take away those between 50 and 80 (11,130) a good number of who are overweight, with pre-existing chronic health problems, you’re left with 851 deaths in Canada, under 50, over a period of roughly 700 days, so I think it’s more than fair to assert that age is every bit as much of a factor in surviving covid as whether you are vaccinated or not. 

33 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I think it's obviously very relevant. But that makes all the more striking Australia's success at suppressing covid so long through social distancing and travel restrictions.  Even though it was late to vaccinations. Among economically developed nations, Australia has the world's 5th highest level of obesity.

Can’t argue with you here. Australia did a good job of keeping things under control, but personally, it’s the last place in the world I’d have wanted to spend the last two years.

Covid has completely changed my perception of Australia. I don’t think even my fellow Canadians would have put up with that level of control over our lives. 

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

Not taboo, but irrelevant without any data to support its importance.

Irrelevant? The numbers have clearly shown since the very beginning that the elderly and obese (with the usual related health problems) represent the overwhelming majority of covid deaths. 
 

Why do so many people want to pretend that everyone is equally susceptible, whether they’re 25 and fit, or 85 and already living in a nursing home?

Is it taboo to mention that Japan also has the lowest rate of obesity in the developed world? 

6 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

 

 

Our fastest way through this mess is via vaccines.  Everyone.

You’ve been repeating this statement for months, and yet here we are, a year into the vaccine rollout, and the most vaccinated countries in the world are recording more cases than ever. So can you explain how you think that vaccines will be our way out of this mess? 
 

Yes, I know that the vaccines prevent serious illness and death for those who have chosen to get them, but that’s a completely different thing than bringing the pandemic to an end. 
 

11 hours ago, ozimoron said:

More children will die from the disease than the vaccine.

I wouldn’t disagree with you here at all, and personally, if I had kids, I wouldn’t be against them being vaccinated, even though I think it’s probably unnecessary for most of them. What I’m against is coerced/forced vaccination. 
If someone chooses to be vaccinated, and they do happen to suffer from an unlikely reaction causing serious side effects or death, then that’s on them. If they are pushed into it, and something bad happens, however rare, who is going to take responsibility for it? How would they ever prove that the vaccine is what caused it? 
 

5 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

I've not looked at the rest of the world but there are no deaths in children from covid vaccination in the UK, ever. There have however been 25 deaths of healthy children with no under lying diseases as a direct result of covid

 

https://fullfact.org/health/covid-vaccines-infections-children/

If people are going to base their decision on 25 deaths out of a population of millions, then they probably won’t want to let their kids ride a bike, go swimming, or cross the street either. 

7 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Are you surprised? Conservative governments worldwide traditionally underfund public health, it is one of their favorite targets.

Fortunately for Australia, every time a Liberal ( sic ) government tries to tinker with cost-cutting, it gets a bloody nose from the voters.

It’s no different in my home province of BC, right next door, or in Ontario. I don’t remember either of those provinces having a conservative government in my lifetime. 
Underfunding health care has been a problem in pretty well all of Canada for a long time, regardless of which color we choose to run things for a few years at a time. The taxes never seem to get any lower though. 

22 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

I know many in Mexico right now. If you're a foreigner and walking around unmasked, you'll be passing many locals off. Show some respect for them.  Mask up and don't spread the virus around.

I wear my mask where it’s required.
The other day I was on a bus, wearing my mask, when I looked around and realized I was one of very few doing so, so I took it off, and nobody gave me any funny looks. 

Very few people are wearing masks while walking around outside in the sun. Why would they? 

Most of the bigger, more expensive restaurants require you to have a mask on when you enter their building, but obviously you can take it off when you eat. Talk about a pointless exercise, especially in a closed, air conditioned building. That bit is just a joke, and shows that masks have become more of an emotional security blanket or public statement for most people, rather than something they actually attempt to use properly. 

The virus is going to spread regardless of what I do or how many masks I wear. If people don’t want to catch it, they should avoid hanging out in busy areas where people are eating, drinking, and generally having a good time together.

34 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The news from the CDC is all over the place. It's easy to find it says that being boosted cut your chances of hospitalization by 90%. So if everyone were boosted that would relieve the pressure on the hospital system.

Where I live (Alberta, Canada) there are more vaccinated in hospitals than unvaccinated. I understand that the vaccinated represent a much higher proportion of the population, so this is not unexpected, but at the end of the day it’s still too many, and it doesn’t really take that many to overload the system in the first place. We were overcrowded long before covid came along, and covid disappearing won’t fix that problem. 
 

27 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I think you'll find the staggeringly high case numbers, in proportion, are coming from the unvaccinated.

To me, it's not about infection. It's about overloaded hospital facilities. Sinovac may be sub-par in terms of preventing infection, but the data is saying hospitalisation is far less likely.

If you are in a city which is in rigid lockdown, and you get infected, it's quite possible you survive in your apartment and the case is not even registered.

The staggeringly high numbers of hospitalizations looks to me to be coming from both groups. I agree that proportionally it’s more unvaccinated, but where I live, it’s a fact that the overall number of vaccinated people in hospitals is higher, so no matter how you break it down, there’s simply too many, even if the unvaxxed were taken out of the picture altogether. 
This shouldn’t really be a surprise at all though, because in the city where I live there are only 9 total ICU beds available to begin with. The media gets lots of clicks by reporting the terrifying truth that we are 20% over capacity, but in reality, that only represents two people. 

58 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Given Tall Guy Johnny's post above, I guess your happy now.

I can’t read his links, they’re behind a paywall, but the quotes I see seem to focus more on what I’ve already agreed with; that the vaccines offer good protection against severe illness and death. 
 

At the end of the day, what appears to need to happen in order for us to go back to normal, is for the hospitals to be back under capacity. At this point, even if you took away all of the unvaccinated patients, there would still be too many vaccinated patients for them to cope with, so until we have a vaccine that actually stops those people from getting covid at all, I’m not convinced that forcing everyone else to be vaccinated will really help.
I also think that governments trying to force it on people is causing more social issues than it’s worth. One example of that is how covid positive medical staff are now being allowed to continue working in some cases, as there is a shortage after others were fired for refusing the vaccine. Another example is how the Quebec government in Canada is considering a hefty tax on the unvaccinated. A money grab, if I ever saw one. 

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

 

You've had two jabs. You don't consider they gave you a degree of protection from more serious outcomes?

True, China has low case and death rates, and they do control the media. The CCP also has the power to lock down entire cities and compel its citizens to be vaccinated, which does not happen in democracies. That's an alternative explanation of their comparative success, unpalatable as it may be to civil libertarians.

I absolutely do consider that they’ve given me a good degree of protection, that’s why I’m walking around in Mexico unmasked, wherever I can, without a care in the world what others choose for themselves. 
 

The CCP does have the power to lock down whole cities and compel vaccinations, but considering the staggeringly high case numbers in other more transparent countries with high levels of vaccination, where supposedly superior vaccines were used, I don’t buy the idea that China’s high level of social control and sub-par vaccines have been able to achieve such absurdly low case numbers. 

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Quite true, but the vaccines do prevent you getting an illness serious enough to kill you or disable you,

I really have to thank you for your post about Mexico, it made my day.

I’ve agreed with this statement since the beginning, and have said it on this forum many times. It’s the basis of my whole argument that vaccinated people should feel safe from others at this point. 

I have no idea how many unvaccinated people I’ve come into contact with during my time in Mexico, but it’s doesn’t matter to me because I feel protected having been vaccinated and already survived the disease.