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* I'm shocked, shocked that you forgot about this. Here you go: What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas Before the War, Gaza’s Leaders Were Deeply Unpopular—but an Israeli Crackdown Could Change That Asked to identify the amount of trust they had in the Hamas authorities, a plurality of respondents (44 percent) said they had no trust at all; “not a lot of trust” was the second most common response, at 23 percent. Only 29 percent of Gazans expressed either “a great deal” or “quite a lot” of trust in their government. Furthermore, 72 percent said there was a large (34 percent) or medium (38 percent) amount of corruption in government institutions, and a minority thought the government was taking meaningful steps to address the problem. https://archive.ph/LbaMm https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas

You think Israel went along for sightseeing? It was there for security. To make sure the money got to where it was meant to be going. "For years, Israeli intelligence officers even escorted a Qatari official into Gaza, where he doled out money from suitcases filled with millions of dollars." https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html And you totally ignore the fact that Israel could have taken measures to stop these payments. And other monies laundered into Gaza. It chose not to.

I stand corrected..oh wait a minute "The 60 year old politician, activist, author and filmmaker, was born in Cape Town, South Africa, to Viennese Holocaust survivor Erika Feinstein (nee Hemmer) and Ralph Josef Feinstein. Feinstein expressed his dismay and disillusionment regarding Starmer’s ongoing support for the funding of apartheid Israel’s genocide and numerous unfulfilled promises."

Israel provided security for the operation. It wanted to make sure the money got there.

US intel indicates only 30-35% of Hamas fighters killed, 65% of tunnels are intact – report https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-intel-indicates-only-30-35-of-hamas-fighters-killed-65-of-tunnels-are-intact-report/ So, "Winning it" is their strategy. There's a novel idea.

I guess RayC made the mistake of assuming that you actually read the article.

You claimed that Israel supported Hamas when it was doing good. Right from the start, Hamas called for the eradication of Israel. In fact, its earlier constitution was blatantly genocidal. Yet Israel supported it? Really?

Unpopular enough that Netanyahu felt he had intervene to help shore up Hamas' popularity. That's how unpopular. Really? Hamas was getting all the aid it wanted from Iran? It didn't want any more? You got some evidence to support that?

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What utter nonsense. Israel imposed on embargo on Gaza when Hamas won the election in 2007. Because it explicitly said that Hamas was a terrorist organizaion. It helped support Qatar when it was giving aid to Hamas to the tune of 30 million dollars a month. Netanyahu said he was doing that to prop up Hamas against the PA. Hamas needed that propping because it had become so unpopular in Gaza. Stop making things up.

I get it. Hamas is using civilians as shields. So the way to deal with that is to starve those civilians to do and deny them medical supplies. That way, they'll be worthless as shields.

That's your argument? It would be worse? You take no account of why Hamas got to be popular in the first place. And you take no account of how unpopular Hamas was before October 7th. And how Hamas might not be in power now if Israel hadn't help to keep it there.

Hmmm...Hamas...Isn't that the group that Israel helped to support as a counterweight to the PA? Or is it some other Hamas you are referring to?

What has that got to do with Hanuguma's know-nothing claim about Palestinians should be begging to be part of Israel's economy?

You think Israel would let them be part of their first world economy? The explicit policy in the West Bank and Gaza, when Israel occupied it, right from the start was to keep the Palestinians economically suppressed. In the West Bank there are 2 sets of laws. One that governs Palestinians and one that governs Israelis. Anyone with any knowledge of this situations knows how the laws have been used to suppress Palestinian development. Clearly, you are not one of those in the know.

Sure. The way Israel has prosecuted this war and it deepening of oppression on the West bank has nothing to do with it? For a long time the Europeans more or less looked the other way at how Israel treated Palestinians, but Israel's conduct during this war has made that impossible. If Hamas has succeeded, that's because Israel has played right into their hands.

Israel has made it easy for those countries. after taking actions like this: Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993 during Blinken visit Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group. “While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.” https://archive.ph/VKF2s#selection-667.0-675.306

And what is Israel's plan for ending the war? Does it even have one?

You are just as free to ignore my posts as I am to address yours. And vice versa. Who said otherwise?

I got exciting news for you. This is an open forum. If you care to carry on a private colloquy with another member, that's what the PM function is for.

So what? I was responding to part of what you quoted. Just not the part you prefer gets paid attention to. And what do you think the significance of that "update" is?

What has this got to do with the specific update the French gave? "Israel’s Foreign Minister, Israel Katz, speaking in Paris at an event attended by Séjourné, urged him “to announce loud and clear that the decision of the Chief Prosecutor is unacceptable to you and the French government – regardless of the authority of the court.” “This is what our friends around the world did, and this is what I expect from our friend, the French government,” Katz said, referring to denunciations of the prosecutor’s move by US President Joe Biden among others." You're the one who introduced it into the thread. Not me.

That a member nation can find a decision of the ICC unacceptable. It's one thing to disagree with a decision, it's quite another to find it unacceptable.

Therefore not to have its assumptions questioned?

Actually, you didn't claim anything. Maybe you didn't read what you quoted? "Israel’s Foreign Minister, Israel Katz, speaking in Paris at an event attended by Séjourné, urged him “to announce loud and clear that the decision of the Chief Prosecutor is unacceptable to you and the French government – regardless of the authority of the court.” “This is what our friends around the world did, and this is what I expect from our friend, the French government,” Katz said, referring to denunciations of the prosecutor’s move by US President Joe Biden among others."