Morch

Hamas took hostages with the intent of leveraging their release in return for political gains. Israel's arrests and detentions are not about that. It's not the same thing. This was was started by Hamas. On 7/10. It upped the ante significantly with regard to atrocities. You're shooting for same same. Go on and tell me how you're not a Hamas apologist.

Same as other places. Go out there and protest. Is there a risk involved? Sure. But some posters on here cited polls they claimed showed 60-70% dissatisfaction with Hamas among Gazans. Rule by the gun or not, it would be very hard to control and contain protests backed up by such support. Nothing said about it being easy or anything. Hamas's ethos is that it's a grassroots, people's movement. It would be nigh impossible for them to completely disregard sustained popular action. The issue is more with nipping in the bud thing (same as when they took over and co-opted that March of Return). But impossible? No. I'm not going into an argument/discussion about resistance/reform movements in the ME. But things like the protests in Iran, or the initial phases of the Syrian Civil War, or indeed, the Arab Spring - are all manifestations of such. The way I see it, this has more to do with how Palestinian society and politics developed over the years. The authoritative nature of rule just expanded from the family level to the national one. Even elections, when held, are not so much about issues, but about clan ties/bloc voting and so on. There's not a whole lot of civic awareness, and the basics of democracy are not well internalized. This comes on top of the refugee status thing, and the ineptness of leaderships over the years - both further fostering a civic/political passive stance which is hard to change. In that sense, Hamas's elections victory (back then...) was somewhat different. People still voted in line with old allegiances, but there was also a sense of it being about good governance, anti-corruption, civil rights etc. Of course, it turned out to be a sham, more like an election time facade. In general, these topics tend to exhibit a tendency of giving Palestinians a free pass. There are no expectations that the population will push for anything different, that it will be more involved or demand something of its leaders (whether Hamas or the PA). Same thing, basically, when discussing diplomatic issues pertaining to the conflict - posters often focus on Israel, while somehow accepting/implying that the Palestinians are essentially play a passive part in things. Like they cannot initiate anything etc. I don't think this is a reasonable or sustainable proposition/state of things. It's almost absurd, considering all them cries about a Palestinian State. What, in current and past Palestinian politics gives any indication that they could run one? And no, I'm not saying this as a denial of their right to a state of their own - but as an observation on the prospects of such a state, if and when.

Don't chop my posts, please. What you believe is none of my concern. You believe all sort of stuff which is either wrong or out there. What you posted is a deflection. I addressed your nonsense 'plan', you cannot deal with it. Same old.

@ozimoron 'I Imagine' 'I don't know but I would think' 'I just think' 'I want a link' You want a link on the basis of what....?

@ozimoron Topic is about USA strikes vs. Iranian-backed militias, you go on about Israel.

If I remember correctly (and I could be wrong, but can be bothered to look it up as it not what the topic is about) there were conditions involved in starting the negotiations - basically because sides did not trust each other to use the time to their advantage. I think Iran had to put some projects on hold, and the other countries had to refrain from adding extra sanctions, or even lifting some.

You keep posting Hamas talking points, legitimizing their positions, actions. Your insistence on false labels, muddying the water was already addressed. It remains a testimony to your ignorance on related matters. Neither of your two silly 'plans' exhibits 'sympathy' for either side. Basically it's a replay of the colonialist favorite of marking neat straight lines on maps, without actually bothering much about what or who is out there. Both your 'plans' maximize discomfort, problems and hardship for sides.

Take your issues with the government of donor countries who suspended funding. Including your own. Try to convince them you know better, maybe they'll buy into your conspiracy theories.

Here's what you posted: It's a conspiracy theory. It's a variation of Jews-Control-America antisemitic memes. That's exactly what you did. Deflect away.

On the off chance you're not trolling - you seriously need to get a clue about where people reside. You want to conduct a second Nakba? Read more, post less. You're out of touch with basics facts now. Not opinions, not views, facts.

Yeah I understood what you meant by 'larger', but not why it 'needs' to be part of. This is a Hamas position/talking point. It's not universally accepted and agreed upon concept. You seem to uphold and support that - in essence broadcasting that taking hostages is a legit negotiation move. As for your bogus 'same same' attempt - no. If Israel was out to bomb with that in mind, there would be no warnings, no evacuations, no nothing - just utter destruction and way longer casualty lists. Further, Israel did not choose this war - Hamas did. Try harder. And tell me how you're not a Hamas fan, while at it. Practically every agreement with Hamas involves a third-party (as mediator/guarantor), sometimes more. This is required by both sides. The same thing applied to agreements between the Israelis and the Palestinians - there was always major involvement by other sides (usually the USA in this regard).

Same how? Did either had anything to do with these lands (America/Australia) before going there? Very different when it comes to Jews and Israel.

@ozimoron Oh, that's ok then. Nothing to worry about.

@thaibeachlovers The Military Expert Placed His Bet. Take Heed.

So you do not follow developments in this story, but continue to react to something days old. Great. As for your Jews-Control-The-World antisemitic conspiracy theory garbage....don't forget to whine next time I'll remind you of it. You just cannot accept the possibility of the evidence being true, factual and so on. It can't be. Why?

@ozimoron Hamas hijacks Israelis. Hamas fanboys hijack topics. This one is not about the ICJ. It's about all them things you don't want to hear about that Hamas did on 7/10. Next time you wonder why posts are labeled 'deflections'? This.

Read up on past events in Jordan, and how the PLO was driven out. Lebanon, already messed up with various factions, did not enjoy being used as the next base of operations. Kuwait threw them out (hundreds of thousands) for supporting Saddam. While they can be citizens in Jordan (where they are the majority), the relations are tenuous, and the political situation is tense. Egypt doesn't allow them free passage either, nor much by way of work permits following Islamic Brotherhood involvement. And so on and so forth.

@ozimoron Doesn't have anything to do with the post you replied to, or the context in which it was made.

Maybe get acquainted with how Palestinians are seen and treated in the Middle East by other Arabs, and their governments. Take your issues with them.

It's the currently prevalent framework. Realistically, there is no other. Even when they disagree - that's what they are referencing. Introducing some nonsense 'plan' as above just gives them more 'ammunition' to reject things. Of course they do not accept it, they are a right-wing government, with a strong nationalistic/religious bent. But if polls are to be trusted, they are due for a major hiding next elections. Whether a more centrist government would go for that or not, remains to be seen - and is also very dependent on how things fare with the war, and what the Palestinian side will look like/what positions it will hold. But again - that's what internationally referenced. That's what the powers that be aim for. Netanyahu said he rejected it, then there were reports leaked from both the USA and the UK that he did not fully rule it out. Whether it's just Netanyahu dodging or whether there's more to it, I don't know. There's another play here, related to his political fortunes and legal issues, which I think is part of the drama.

I am sure that those UNRWA workers dismissed for involvement in the Hamas 7/10 attack also did so based on a sense of morality (warped as it may be). People believing in something is nothing special. Read recent comments on this topic and see a bunch of people indicate what they believe in. Does not in any way make it correct, right, righteous or moral. As for which departments/positions are involved - that was included in my initial comment. You assume. I do not. As is evident from these topics, a whole lot of people have 'opinions', most of them are not really informed, and a whole lot of them are based on irrelevant biases. There's no reason to think those signing this letter are different. None. Some Palestinians would say this, some would say that. It's like everywhere else. True that on many levels they are caught between a rock and a hard place. No great choices. But this brings up another point I often make - that in many ways, it's up to them. Taking charge of their lives, opting for better choices, better leaderships, better outcomes - it's not something that can be bestowed.

Palestine is not doing any such thing. Hamas did/does. The citizens have no say in this. It got zero to do with their priorities. Also, them 'defensive' bits? They aren't there for the citizens' sake, just for Hamas. You have no idea who involved parties are. You have no idea who's the government. You have no idea about how things work under Hamas rule. You make up stuff about these and about what 'the general public' wants. Are you seriously talking about Jewish 'quotas' for public service? Political office? And to think that Holocaust Memorial Day just ended.... Things sure run deep here on AN.

@ozimoron Some people commenting on these topic really ought to get out of their comfort zone. What you believe in is irrelevant. What people involved believe is. And yes, some of them are fanatics, zealots and they are actually into that....it's not always an act.

Palestine is not. Hamas is.

@ozimoron Yet another Israel/Jews Control America. From another I'm-Not-An-Antisemite poster.