The Cipher

6 minutes ago, johnbarley said:

I think the more interesting phenomenon is the almost universal bashing of Thailand on this forum by expats who apparently continue to stay in the country

Yes. I am a little confused by this too.

8 minutes ago, DLock said:

Ahhh, the optimism of a newbie. Refreshing.

Not sure if I just got shade thrown at me ????

10 minutes ago, DLock said:

Thailand has limited appeal for the wealthy, but it's not in Bangkok. Besides a few overpriced and underwhelming restaurants and clubs, Bangkok just a gritty, vibrant city of traffic, shopping malls and dirty red-light districts. Nothing for well heeled foreigners, especially those with families.

 

The islands and the beachfront Villas, personal staff, boats, island hopping, diving, Thai Chef and food and warm climate can be appealing for a week or so, and give a wonderful impression of Thailand, and many wealthy foreigners own such Villas in Phuket or Samui and come for 2 weeks during Christmas and rent the Villa out the remaining time

Actually I agree with part of this. I don't think this is a great place for folks with families. I definitely wouldn't want my kids growing up here beyond age 7 or so.

Also agree that Thailand is not ideal as a full-time destination for the wealthy without the ability to take frequent trips abroad. Although I'd argue that I have yet to find a city that has enough on its own where I don't feel bored after a few months, so I'm not sure that's just a Thailand problem.

I've said elsewhere on here that I think Thailand - and Bangkok specifically - is best as a part-of-the-year residence for wealthy under 40s who are still in 'kill mode'. Because it offers the ability to live a 'work hard play hard' lifestyle at fantastic value for money, meaning that those folks can live a high-quality life while maximizing wealth accumulation at the same time.

For seniors though, or folks with families, I imagine that a lot of the things that make Bangkok appealingly 'quirky, vibrant, and exciting' for young people quickly turn into annoyances. Those folks might be better off basing elsewhere and doing the short-term luxury island retreat thing that you outlined in your post.

24 minutes ago, DerbyDan said:

Mostly cultural stuff, plays, concerts, art museums, things with class.

 

If I was in Paris I could sit at classy outdoor cafes during the day, attend cultural events, art museums, there would be a "scene" there.

So that's fair. If frequent traditionally high culture activities are your jam then I'd agree that Bangkok isn't the place to be.

My point was more that Thailand has its niche, and that 'the wealthy' are not the homogeneous group that it sometimes sounds like the forum characterizes them as.

Watching a talented opera singer hit their notes? Has experiential value. Stumbling out of a dingy Thai after-hours at 4am? Also has experiential value. And isn't that one of the best perks of wealth? - The ability to create your own tapestry of custom experiences.

And Thailand has a lot more appeal than it's bars too. I think if the government can accurately identify the location's true unique value proposition, there is a pitch to be made to tourists of all stripes - including the wealthy.  Do I think that they'll actually fnd and make that pitch? Not really lol.

55 minutes ago, DerbyDan said:

What do you do with millions in Thailand, get an expensive condo in Bangkok and just sit there? Buy a villa in Kamala and order take out?

 

The lifestyle is just not there for the wealthy.

Assuming normal life (post-Covid), what do you do with millions in any other city that's different from what you do in Bangkok?

The idea that Thailand has no inherent appeal for wealthy tourists - especially on shorter term holidays - is ridiculous and I have no idea why so many forumers here seem to believe this.

2 hours ago, kynikoi said:

Thailand offers nothing to wealthy people.

I don't think this is exactly true. Thailand has its own unique vibe and is relatively easy to settle into. I don't think it's ideal as a single location, but as part of a dual or multi-city rotation? Definitely has appeal.

2 hours ago, kynikoi said:

I suspect most of the wealthy Thailand hopes to attract are over fifty.

This might be more of the problem. Gov may be targeting the wrong demographic.

I think Thailand appeals most to relatively affluent under-40s because (i) it offers a high quality of life at low cost, allowing high earners to enjoy life while stacking; and (ii) has plenty to explore, and is in close enough in proximity to a ton of other high-interest destinations that there's always plenty to do.

Conversely if I were a rich senior and looking for a home in the region, Singapore looks waay more appealing than Thailand does. Although Thailand's appeal does shoot up a bit with the uncertainty in Hong Kong.

27 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

He is a HNI guy and has been gone since last May, 1 year ago, when he returned to the USA to take care of family business.  He is unfortunately only 45 and is a digital nomad, so getting back here is not very easy, and as he told me when he was leaving, he can afford to walk away from all he has here, and wont waste more money coming back by playing Thailands quarantine games, 100K insurance, and such.  He would bounce in and out every 3 months, but alas can not do that now. 

It's a little inconvenient, but not actually that hard from to get here from North America right now if someone wants in. My girlfriend and I are both 30 and we navigated the visa and ASQ process without too much difficulty. I'd expect that being a digital nomad would be of help here rather than a hinderance.

The cost was about $5,000 CAD for everything, so shouldn't actually be that much of a barrier for a HNWI. And the freedom to live a relatively normal life (at that time) compared to the restrictions at home was absolutely worth the price paid. Back-and-forthing every quarter is probably off the table for now though. ????

31 minutes ago, expatjustice said:

If you reside in the US then for sure. You don’t have to pay anything to the Thai government. 
 

If you reside in Thailand, then there are two options: 

 

 - You bring your income right away to Thailand. And in that case you would have to pay taxes for that money in Thailand.

 

- You keep that money in the USA for 12 months since the date you earned it. And you transfer it into Thailand one year later (12 months). That way you are according to Thai laws exempt of paying any tax here for that money. 

Thanks. This is great! In fact this entire thread is gold. Really appreciate the insights here. Beers on me post lockdown ????

48 minutes ago, expatjustice said:

If you have let’s say an online shop, where you sell an Antivirus software which you developed. And you have registered a company in Panama, which is the one that invoices your customers and also the payment gateway on your website is under this company’s name and the customers money go to an account under this company’s name…. Even if you have some Thai nationals customers buying in your website, this will never count as working in Thailand. The authorities don’t even care.

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If I have a let’s say online shop where I sell some software for example, and I use a foreign company to invoice my customers. Legally that money is earned outside of Thailand, even if I myself live in Thailand. That’s where it all ends. 

So just to make sure that I am understanding this correctly - let's say that I incorporate a business in the USA and create an online store. If I buy advertisements in the USA and Thailand, and sell to both American and Thai customers, I would pay taxes on all of the sales (even those made to Thai residents) to the US gov and none to the Thai gov?

1 hour ago, impulse said:

Right now, the going rate for casual (spelled illegal) workers outside the Home Depot is $100 cash for an 8 hour day.  (Ask me how I know that)

Ok I'll bite. How do you know that?

1 hour ago, digibum said:

What country? 

I'm employed in Canada and file my taxes there. Cleared the idea of spending some time in Thailand with management before flying over here. 

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It's just too complex for a bunch of countries to figure out where you were when you earned what money and then come up with some reciprocal taxing arrangement.  What about an annual bonus?  Was it earned in the month given or was it earned throughout the year? 

I also think it's unlikely that we see global cooperating this issue of personal tax anytime

soon. My comment was more in response to a previous comment about how Thailand may be missing out on the opportunity to earn revenue from digital nomads and remote workers. I, and I believe others as well, would chafe at being taxed once at home and then again in another country. I believe that Thailand attempting to enforce that hypothetical tax would make the country significantly less attractive for location independent workers.

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Also, I think post-Covid a lot of people who have been working remotely from other countries are going to be in for a rude awakening at some point.  Your employer may owe taxes in Thailand if you are working here and they have any operations whatsoever in Thailand. 

 

There are lots of digital nomads who already getting called home once the legal team finds out what's going on.  There's a lot of tricky tax issues for your employer and they need to make sure they're not exposing themselves to potential tax liabilities. 

Now that you've mentioned this, I'm a little curious. If someone were to be a remote worker (legally employed overseas) or a true independent digital nomad, and if they were in Thailand on any visa other than a work-permit and earning income outside of Thailand, do the Thai authorities make any attempt to track this at all?

And is it even illegal, since income is not actually being earned in Thailand and those earnings really have nothing to do with Thailand at all, other that that the earner is physically located there for part of the year?

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how about a remote worker earning a salary overseas and paying tax overseas ?

I'm already getting heavily taxed in my country of employment (and I bet the tax burden will go even higher soon) so it would definitely be a big negative if I were working remotely in Thailand or another country and they decided to tax me too. I think many others would feel similarly and it might end up being partially a game of regulatory arbitrage for prospective remote workers looking at choosing a location.

If Thailand and <home country> worked something out so that the net result in taxes paid

was the same, then sure. But otherwise the benefit to the Thai economy from the injection of 'digital nomad' spending into the economy ought to be enough.

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Who cares don’t come back you Thais came back from overseas when the Wuhan virus was spreading all over but here 3-3 1/2 months zero cases, now it’s bad here then you jump ship again your dorks not Thais so when it gets better here you come back, just don’t let me see you at the airport 

No clue what you're trying to say, but I'd like one of whatever you took before writing that.

Not sure if my situation qualifies me as a digital nomad not, but here's some of what attracted me to Bangkok. I'm 30 and work as an investment analyst. Normally based in Vancouver, Canada.

Because of Covid my firm moved to remote work in April of last year. Have been in Bangkok since December, after getting the ok from management. I flew to escape tough Covid restrictions at home, and so far it's been one of the better decisions I've made recently.

The absence of Covid and corresponding higher quality of life were what attracted me at the time. In general though, I think Bangkok offers fantastic value for money compared to Canada as well as a much better winter climate (obviously). It's a safe and generally easy place set up shop for remote work with a lot of the quality-of-life-amenities that many urban professionals enjoy. Although there are some unavoidable challenges as well, the trade-off seems to be more than worth it.

Longer term, if remote work sticks as a thing, I could easily envision myself splitting time annually between Vancouver and Bangkok (and possibly other cities as well!). I anticipate that other folks in similar situations - especially in their 20s and 30s - will make this realization as well, and I'd expect Bangkok to continue to be a popular destination.

The right question isn't "here or there?"

It's "how do I do both here and there?"

Preferably while young enough to really enjoy the benefits of multi-city living.