parallaxtech

Happylarry: (Though you weren't asking me)

During a period over 40 years of living and working in Thailand, in the provinces and in Bangkok, I have never been required to pay a bribe to the Thai police for any service or in response to a threat by the police.

In almost all cases I have been treated respectfully by the Thai police and immigration officers in my interactions with them.

I may be one of the small minority of TV members who thinks that Thais are basically honest and do not approve of paying bribes -- especially to the police.

None of us ex-pats on this Forum should condone the paying of bribes to police officers, which is a violation of the law.

Regardless of whether OP deserved to have his extension application denied because of the Fund Book documentation, the other testimonies of graft at Samui immigration are evidence that this office is practicing extortion.

No other reports from TV members have described similar attempts to extract bribes from ex-pats seeking retirement extensions.

Therefore, paying bribes to Immo officers for retirement extensions is not common practice and should not be tolerated or allowed to spread.

Tao: Glad to hear there are people like you out there. Let me update you, LB, Mario, and others who have followed my case. I met with the SCB manager, my lawyer, and a very influential farang business owner re: my situation. They all concurred with what I had suspected all along. The Fund account is a liquid cash saving account, no stocks, mutual funds, bonds, etc. The only condition Thai Immigration has is that your funds can be released say if there is a seizure of assets, which mine can just like any other bank account.

I asked SCB if he knew of others who had run into a problem with this account, and he was aware of around ten cases, but they simply paid a visa fixer to bribe the IO. He said to try again in three mos with my standard bank account and see if they accept it.

I then asked if I decided to pay a bribe what would stop them from arresting me later for either bribing a government official or saying it was an illegal stamp, and he said yes these are very dangerous times for farangs on KS.

I called 1111 suggested by Mario and explained my problem and they agreed there was no problem with any bank or fund account gaining interest as long as the cash could be withdrawn without any time frame like six months or a year, but 24 hrs was no problem, so my account is ok.

I asked my lawyer if I could request a hearing the next time they refuse my extension for say parting my hair on the wrong side and he said the police would simply ask for more money for the hearing and still refuse the extension, plus I would be on their radar in the future.

I will try in three mos to go in with a standard bank account and pay the 1900B. If refused, my friends tell me they have a non-imm B that can just be stamped at the border. LB and Mario, do you think I could get a non-imm B and just do visa runs in the future?

This is the way of life in Thailand, for everybody, if you think a few ex-pats are going to change their culture then you are sadly mistaken.

What nobody has mentioned so far is that to get their jobs in immigration their familys have most likely paid a huge bribe to the person in charge of hiring anyway.

When most students get their degrees from University's they dont just walk into a government position, if they dont know someone then they have to pay, and this goes across the board. So it is natural that if they can then they are going to extort as well, wrong it may be, but that is how this country works.

Whether it be the land office, the telephone office, anywhere you go things can be speeded up by exchanging money.

I defy anyone who lives here full time to say they have never paid "tea money", and that includes you.

Speeding fines, no crash helmets, pirate tv, prostitutes, buying a house, giving wife money to buy a house....its all the same, against the law, and if every ex-pat here said they would not participate it would make no difference except to your own life. Their life and their culture will go on as usual.

Thats as I see it anyway. As I said before I have come here for a peaceful life....live and let live.

HL

Most farangs who have lived here for a number of years understand this, but you still have a choice on whether you wish to participate in illegal activities. You are correct that no amount of farangs will change corruption in Thailand, but are you saying just to keep feeding the corruption or leave? One might not have a problem paying 5-30K for a 1900B extension, and even next year when it is 60K, but what is to stop them from turning around and arresting you and charging you 1MB to get out of your four-year prison term? Farangs are on a very slippery slope when they bribe government officials. A Thai in a rented fishing shack has nothing to worry about, but farangs with money are big juicy targets for them. I saw corrupt government officials all over the world during my career and they never stayed on a small scale; if they could get away with a small amount of corruption it just escalated until they were caught.

My small group of friends in KS will not pay corruption money to anybody and will leave if forced to. They have all lived here over ten years and have the money to live anywhere. Again, it's about choices and whether you are happy living under these conditions.

My first ever Post on Thai Visa 23.10.06

Hello. Can some one please confirm the annual fee for renewing the Non Imm o Visa based on marriage to a Thai wife.

I ask because myself and others in Samui are paying 5,000 Baht. Friends I talk to in other areas of the country seem to be paying 1,900. I have searched web sites and everything seems to suggest a fee of 1,900.

Many people I know here who have lived on KS for a long time simply leave every three mos as they don't want to face the people in Nathon Immigration. They won' t pay a bribe and resent being asked for one. It sounds like things with the new group are even worse. I hope everyone will keep writing in on how much they are paying for extensions. When I sat there for six hours the other day it was amazing to see how many visa fixers walked in with stacks of passports. I called several of them and the going rate was 25-30K. So you might figure that the government stamper is getting at least 10k per passport. That tells me two things: They are not going to be very happy getting 1,900 when they can get 10K and people are paying anything to avoid those scoundrels in Nathon.

You file the 90 day report 90 days after you are in the country.

Untill you ask for an extension of stay you will not need to do 90 day reports. The first extension of stay is considered your first 90 day report and you will have to report every 90 days. If you leave the country, the 90 day reporting clock is reset to day 1.

Mario, once again, thanks.

I can understand why they would not accept that.

I never did understand it. Was getting 4% though.

I should imagine that while they were charging most applicants 5,000 Baht they were happy to accept anything.

Now apparently under a new regime they are playing by the book.

LB, the problem is I don't believe there is anything in a book or document about it -- simply 800,00K in cash in a bank account. Anyway, that is exactly what they will see from me next time. I am on my way to see the SCB manager to make sure he alerts all clients to move out of these accounts if they are looking at them for immigration purposes.

Question: Since I now have my non-imm O good for three mos do I need to immediately fill out the 90 day form at Immigration showing proof of residence or can I simply wait the three mos when I go in to apply for the extension and just file it then?

Thanks, LB, for all you did this past week!

A few years ago I had a SCB Fund Book. I never did understand it so I figured that Immigration would not either so I used to withdraw and put the money in a Savings acc. at extension time.

It was based on units and you gave 24 hours notice to sell.

Yes after leaving Samui I dealt with Korat Immigration who were very helpful and friendly. Now deal with the new Khon Kaen office. Also very helpful.

LB: Thanks, as usual, you are right on the mark. Maybe I will join you up at KK. You should perhaps take a picture of these honest people and we can post it on TV.

...if true then the Immi guy was 100% correct to deny the visa

Once the OP gives us the link to the information about his type of account, the discussion can proceed to the next step: his claim that the account should have been accepted because it was accepted for the previous five years, ie his claiming a right based on a precedent.

--

Maestro

See lightbeer's link above, which is exactly the same account I have and many more have. When I first got the account it was 3.5% and rising. When you're transferring money over for a house and land you typically want the highest interest possible. After depleting most of the funds over the years, I simply left it in the account even as it dwindled to .75%, as I figured one day it would rise again. The bank manager told me in 2005 that there would never be a question from Immigration. Since I've always received my extension using this particular account, I've never thought about it. What bothered me most was their attitude. When a farang is asking politely for an explanation and options, it is inhumane to mumble some vague excuses and then tell them just to leave and go back to the US.

My wife says that type of account is similar to a CD. So as I stated earlier in this thread, if true then the Immi guy was 100% correct to deny the visa

No, I have a cd here and this is not a cd, because a cd has a time frame where the funds can't be removed. The bank manager even explained to him that it was the same as any other passbook account, only that it had variable interest and you had to wait one day to get your money. Needless to say, i will never present a Fund Book account to Immigration ever again.

By the way I was granted three mos stay, so I will approach Imm in three mos with a regular passbook showing 800K.

such a long thread,for such simple answers.See my post no.75.Its not a big deal.You just did n't have the required amount in the correct account.Its not difficult to get back your retirement extension, and you've had much good advice about different ways to go about it.Good luck and get to it!

No, thanks to several of you, I am sitting now in KL with my visa ready to come back. The reason for these long messages is that we are trying to find out what is and isn't considered a correct account, so that others, who might not have the money to jump on a plane in a minutes notice to get a visa, can get their extension effortlessly. They might say next week that Bangkok Bank is not acceptable, which makes about as much sense as my rejection. We are the only ones jumping through hoops so it's important to know when they have moved the hoops.

i know the guy down there for 8 years but my 1900 marriage visa last year cost 5000, i knew that before i went.

The fee is 1,900 Baht. Why would you think it OK to pay 5,000 Baht.

It is beyond me.

I paid 5,000 Baht the first time out of ignorance.

I then joined Thai Visa and found out that the fee was 1,900 Baht.

I paid 5,000 the next year because I knew I was leaving Samui shortly and in the future would be dealing with honest people.

Exactly LB! Don't ever ask Immigration how much the fee is. Just complete the form and put 1900B on top of it. If they ask for more tell them no problem but your embassy needs a copy of the receipt. If every time you went to the bathroom somebody handed you 5,000B, how many times a day would you go? If everyone is giving them an extra 5K, you can see why they keep it up until one day it spirals way out of control, and how much will they ask for in ten years? Get the picture?

By the way, LB, did you find any honest people???

it all adds up perfectly well to me after 8 years dealing with them. i know the guy down there for 8 years but my 1900 marriage visa last year cost 5000, i knew that before i went. the year before 10,000 through a lawyer. ask how many people have ever had a receipt from the immigration, i only know of one and he is the British Consulate. as a matter of principal 6 months into my retirement visa i went home, whilst there changed back to non o and do visa runs. letters, proof of address every thing double any where else. as Roo says you could write a book. there used to be a price list in there years ago, now its gone.

you have to pay extras or do visa runs. you can add pattaya to the lawyer thing, be honest your joking arent you.

Exactly, I think the funniest comment I heard was from an 83-yr-old, who was a retired judge from Cyprus, "I never pay bribes I just go in every year and pay my standard 30,000THB for my extension and it's over." When I told him the fee was 1900THB, he turned red in the face and actually went down to Immigration and asked for his money back for overcharging him for the last six years. And guess what they said to him, "Where is your receipt?"

No offence to the poster,but it sounds to me his attitude or the way he replied to the imigration office on the day re 'getting his lawyer"was what undid him too.The only way to be is humble in these offices.

You might not have seen my early message. After I had sat for several hours and smiled and calmly spoken to three different Immigration people and they had rudely told me to leave, I asked if my lawyer could come in and interpret, as something was obviously lost in translation. It would be fruitless to threaten any government official in any country, but perfectly acceptable to request that a lawyer at least assist you with a legal matter. If I have a problem with the police I'm not going to sit and argue with them. I will let a lawyer discuss the problem with them. If they had simply said, "We are sorry but Thai Immigration is no longer accepting these accounts because ..., I would have understood and accepted it. I haven't included all the negative things that were said to me, which made me feel more and more like I was being singled out by somebody on an ego trip.

Right, MyFriendSame, if you go into Immigration with all the correct paperwork and get refused by the Officer on some "unwritten" rule, you don't blame the Immigration Officer, either, right ?

You'll probably say that the fault lies entirely with yourself, right ?

Exactly! If you go into Immigration and they say no extensions for British people what do you do: a. Offer a bribe; b. Go for his throat; or c. Ask for clarification?

This was how I felt. His reason didn't make a bit of sense to me. That was why I went on TV to see if it was happening to others. And thanks to some good people out there I'm beginning to understand it wasn't just me. See Lop's message above where others were rejected for having similar bank accounts. Those of you banking with SCB look at your savings book and make sure it doesn't have "Fund Book" on it.

The OP original problem seems to have been his use of fixed deposit accounts (which had previously been allowed) and not having the 800k in the more normal passbook savings account. That this was accepted in the past is no guarantee it will be accepted now and people had been refused in the past at some locations when trying to use this method. As even marriage extension are now having the requirement of applicant name only on account (where joint account had been accepted in the past) do not see this as that much out of line. Believe there was a misunderstanding on the "no interest" as suspect that was to mean "no fixed deposit" (if that was the account presented - I am still thrown by the "fund book" as have never seen such a name used on a passbook savings or fixed deposit account here. Now OP is making the suggestion they may be "arbitrarily refusing extensions to US retirees"? Am not sure how one case becomes a class action without any other such reports being made.

An official explanation of refusal is what we should be looking for rather than tilting at windmills.

Lop: I think what will solve this whole matter is tomorrow when I return to KS I will have the SCB manager call the Immigration Office asking for clarification on what types of bank accounts that are acceptable, as he has many clients on Fund Book accounts and needs to advise them to move out of them if it's a problem with Immigration. The SCB Fund Book account that was rejected has a variable interest rate (3.75 in 2006 and .75 now), but the cash can be withdrawn within one day without penalty. I really don't see much difference between that and a regular account other than you have to wait one day for your money. I can understand their concern over some fund accounts where the money can't be removed until one year. That's why I had the bank manager speak to him and explain it was a cash account like any other. I remember one comment he made was , "We don't want farangs investing and collecting interest, but rather spending most of the money in the account and replacing it with another 800K."

You might have missed the crux of the problem for me. I will put the money into any bank or account that Immigration desires if those are the rules for everybody. I am simply against any officer who has had a bad day and decides to make up a poor excuse to refuse my extension. If my bank manager learns tomorrow that all Fund Book accounts are not acceptable, I will be very happy. This will tell me that I was not singled out, which is what has concerned me all along.

I received my non-imm O visa today, so tomorrow we will see how many months Samui Airport Immigration grants me.

parallaxtech: You have my sympathy based on your posts, because what is being reported is out of line to what we have seen before at Samui immigration. Note, however, that Thai embassies and consulates come under the control of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs whereas immigration offices are part of the Immigration Bureau (Royal Thai Police) - two seperate departments with different processes and procedures, and generally the requirements (including financials) to obtain a visa are less onerous than applying for extension of stay at Thai immigration. Just be careful not to compare apples with oranges.

Thanks, I didn't know that. What I think you are saying is that the financials are discretionary, so if one officer doesn't like your money in XYZ Bank, he can refuse your request for extension. This might be the answer, then, that it is all subjective -- one man's 800K might not be the same as the next man's. If you read what Mario posted previously, upon request, they must provide a reason for the declination in writing. I will be requesting that this week. I want to do this so everyone is clear about it, and the next time I go in, I have exactly what is required.

I suspect that the IO has made a mistake but having made the "go back to the US" remark I doubt if he would be mindful to rectify his error. Probably he didn't take kindly to your lawyer putting him right.

Yes correct, he made the poor immi guy lose face. no need to do that. Who need a lawyer for a simple extension anyway

You might not have seen the previous posts. The lawyer came in at the very end after everything else had been exhausted. When someone has done something to me that I suspect is illegal or unlawful, I don't scream or fight, I just call a lawyer. And if he fails, I take the next steps, which I'm pursuing now.

I went to the Thai Embassy today in KL to get my non-immigrant O visa based on retirement. I was asked to provide proof that there was 800KTHB in a Thai bank so I pulled out ONLY the Fund Book account from SCB (the one rejected by KS Immigration). It was all approved without question. I then asked the consular officer if I could move my money into another Thai Bank with a higher interest rate. He said that as long as the funds were liquid (not put into stocks, mutual funds, or bonds) the interest rate was totally up to me. This was what I suspected all along, anyway, but now I have confirmation so I can pursue it when I get back on Wednesday in KS. I have also been in touch with a consular friend in the US Embassy Bangkok who is eager to hear the outcome of this. If they are arbitrarily refusing extensions to US retirees, Bangkok Immigration will receive an official letter from the Embassy demanding an explanation. So stay tuned as it is far from over.

At least we now know that their rejection of my Extension was bogus -- the interest rate has no bearing on whether the 800KTHB is acceptable or not.

There is a government information line: 1111, where you can also get information about immigration from immigraiton officers. If you have question you can always call them and they will assist you.

Mario: All you can eat at McDonalds on me! I will sleep better tonight because of your research. Thanks, mucho!

My advice at the OP, when you are in Malaysia have a good look around. You may like that country. Easier to stay there and you can even own your house legally under the second home law ( or called similar). No hassle from Immigration, they are actually smiling at the border (at least to me). Just a thought...

Thanks, CH, but Americans and muslims aren't really a good mix these days. I'm here now and it looks nice. The people are all kind. I left a beachfront home in the Cayman Islands in 2004 because several American friends of mine were killed there, and I've invested a considerable amount of money on a house and land here. There's no utopia. I love many things about Samui, but this incident has absolutely boiled my blood. If they ever try to arrest me under false charges or someone takes a shot at me, I will definitely consider a move.

Regarding the suggestion that you should have the 800K in a "straight non-interest-bearing savings account" -- Lopburi3 pointed out at the beginning of this thread that every savings account in a local bank accrues interest.

So that is a bogus (and nonsensical) justification for refusing OP's extension application.

Another poster suggests that Samui IO are accepting bribes (e.g., 5,000 baht a pop). But the fact that the IO never gave you this option suggests that (lack of) a bribe was not the issue in your case.

Something is truly weird about OP's experience and this new Immo officer.

Hopefully, more Samui ex-pats will report on their interactions with this fellow, at least to determine if this is one person's grudge or a policy of the entire Samui Immo office.

I would like to join those other TV members who strongly oppose paying a bribe to an Immo official to obtain approval of the retirement extension.

Tao now: You are now an official member of the DBS (Dead Bribe Society) and I welcome any other gentlemen who would like to join. Just send me 5,000K and I will keep it in a non-interest-bearing account.

As I wrote previously, I knew it was bogus. This was why I asked to see the next boss and the next boss, but the woman who first denied me ran in each time to tell the new boss to refuse it (Before you ask, my Thai is 75% fluent.) It just seems to be the flavor of the month, so I wanted to warn everybody in case they sprung it on them.

I didn't want to open another can of worms or serpents in this case, but here goes. I didn't mention that for the past five years they have looked at my same interest-bearing accounts and approved it without question. However, each time Mr. N__t asked for a bribe. The first time he did it by stating that the visa fee had gone up to 6,000B. I just smiled and handed him 1900B. The next year he said he needed an extra 5,000B because he needed to see if I had a record with Interpol. The next year he said they had me under surveillance for working without a permit and I needed to pay an extra 5,000. I was looking forward to seeing what the next excuse was, but he and the rest of them are gone, most likely scalping in another region. The new guy just declines your extension and most likely expects you to offer whatever or get a visa bandito to offer the money. Everyone needs to realize that bribing a government official is illegal everywhere. He might give you a visa, but he might also not enter it on the computer and, guess what, you are then facing a prison term. You have no invoice from him, so have no proof. In fact he might arrest you on the spot. Read Samui Express this month where people paid the travel agency to get their visas and are now facing four years in prison. Things are not getting better here, so everyone be careful.

Mr. Mario, an honorary member of DBS, has given me now enough info to pursue this. I will start tomorrow at the Thai Embassy in KL to get the names of the senior IMM officers in Bangkok. I will be advising everyone on my progress.

Just so you know me, I was the runt in school who always faced the bully and walked away with a black eye and a couple of loose teeth, but you know what, he also limped away and never bothered me again. Throughout my career I have faced injustice in places like Colombia, El Salvador, and Iraq. Professionals have gone after me, so I'm not too concerned about some monkeys. We will never stop corruption here, as it is endemic, but that doesn't mean we should participate in it. We all need to stick to our principles learned from our parents and in school. From the messages I've read there are some fine people on TV and I thank you again!

As a U.S. citizen you have a very easy solution available to you. Instead of using your bank accounts to verify your financial ability to live in Thailand, go the the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and obtain a letter from them certifying your annual income. I do that every year with no problem.

Send me a PM if you want more information.

Utley, thanks for the info! My problem is that I don't work and have no income or pension. I have real estate in several countries and a large stock portfolio. Would they consider that?

I think that it's corrupt enough.

sounds like u've really found a piece of paradise .

let us know how much your trip and legals fees add up to compared to the donation to the policeman widows and orphans fund that may have gotten u want you came in for

Jack, thanks, but money is not a problem for me. No offense to anyone who pays bribes, but I have only three real friends here that I trust, and their question to me was, "If you are paying a corrupt government official, what is the difference between you and the scum you are facing? You may get what you want, but what does that say about you. And it also makes it more difficult for all the other farangs who are trying to do things legally. My friends have never paid a bribe and never will as they all say they could never face themselves in the mirror the next day. I happen to feel the same way. I will pay whatever it takes to stay legal, but will also take this matter as high as I can at Thai Immigration and the US Embassy.

From police order 777/2551:

4. If the applicant does not fully meet the qualifications as prescribed by this order, the competent official shall inform the applicant for his/her denial and he/she departs within 7 days after the permission date ended.

In case the applicant wishes to review the denial by the orders mentioned in clause 1, the applicant shall re-submit an application for another review, citing the reasons for the re-submission in a letter to a competent official holding a rank of a police inspector and higher. This is for the purpose of obtaining a decision in writing on the application. In this case, the applicant may attach all supporting documents to the application for re-submission at the same time. The review shall be carried out within the time limit prescribed by paragraph 1. During the proceeding of the consideration, the competent official shall set the date of result hearing within 7 days after the review application is submitted.

So you have to option of getting a decision in writing and with that the potential to bring it under scrutiny. But always consider the wisdom of such action. Often it is much simpler to oblige immigration when they have some strange request.

Mario: I am in the airport now on my way to KL for a new visa. I thank you very much for this info and only wish I had known it yesterday. I am wondering if the police inspector has to be within Immigration or in the Samui Police. I spoke to three people there who all claimed to be supervisors, wore no badges, and refused to provide their names. When I asked for the next highest person they just said, "Not here." I saw pictures of several officers on a board in Immigration, but don't know how to contact them.

Should I ask at the Thai Embassy in KL, as maybe they have an inspector's name in Bangkok?

The corruption in Samui is only getting worse so it's time somebody at least question it politely. If you meet or exceed all requirements for a visa extension the least they can do is explain why they are not granting the extension. Plus, I will need to return there in three months, so I don't want to be facing this problem each time.

This situation is no problem for people who like to travel internationally, but I am one of the rare people who doesn't want to leave. I have a beautiful Thai wife, home, and enough money, so am completely content here. Being forced to leave this country upsets me to no end.

I will enter any progress I make on TV.

I reported a week earlier last year and was refused. They told me to come back within two days of the expiration.

I cannot understand what is going on here.

Every Immigration Office will extend within the final 30 days of your permission to stay.

Some even advise applying 2 months early.

When I lived in Samui I always applied a month early.

I am not saying that I disbelieve you but it all seems a bit odd.

LB: I will try it again at the end of my three months and apply a few weeks earlier. Again, things have really changed here and not for the better. If you do everything they say and have all the proper documents and they still refuse your extension what can you do? i just want to do things properly and legally and not act like a drug dealer sneaking around and paying off gov't officials to look the other way. I think that it's corrupt enough without feeding it more.

....to at least try on Monday to see if it is a matter of a few thousand baht.

Parallaxtech, and if so, what you want to do?

Decided not to do this as I don't want to start bribing gov't officials and possibly end up with a false stamp (read Samui Express this month) that will put me in prison. I will do as others suggested and fly to Malaysia tomorrow for an O visa.

Thanks to all of you again who helped. I really appreciate it and am happy to know there are some good people on TV.