samtam

No. I'm not handing over any money, as I have none due on tax. What I am unclear about as I've heard it every which way, is whether anyone who is over the threshhold of THB60k, but has no money to pay after assessable income is (way) below a taxable amount, is required to file a null return. Some, including the the Thai RD officer on Carl Turner's webinar, and from reports of visits by expats to RD, have been told "yes". Some, after reports of their visits, have been told "no". A definitive answer on that, in the official RD guide states: This seems unequivocal. Why then are RD (apparently) equivocating?

Thanks for your report. Unfortunately it varies from other responses, in that your TRD officer says if there are no taxes due, you do not have to file, "but can if you wish". There seems to be a strong indication that you have to file whether it's a null return or not, if I have read the many thousands of words on the subject, and listened correctly to legit tax experts. As I've said previously, I think this year's filing is a test run, to see if TRD can cope with the additional filings, null or otherwise, and indeed whether this exercise raises any additional tax revenue for the state. Unfortunately Thai bureaucracy will just wait to see how it turns out, as it is reactive, rather than proactive in policy making, and it is the Thai way of market research and assessment.

I don't think there's any chance they will can this before 2024 taxes are filed, but they will have 9 months to reflect whether the changes of Por161 & 162 have produced the revenue they are hoping to get. An additional 200K low or null payments (from retired expats) are only the small fry in the net. Will they get the big Thai fish? Will the big Thai shark eat the SS TRD before the next tax year?

My Thai assistant tried this number several times today, but could not get through. I think the deluge of uncertainty is, as predicted, overwhelming TRD. Hitherto, it has been possible to get through quite easily. The consistency of correct replies has however been proving that they are completely inconsistent. Even within Bangkok, even with the same District. It's a complete manure show. Who'd have thunk it? As my assistant said, when they realise that they have begun something universally unworkable, they will probably begin to drop it. But that will have to wait until things pan out, leading up to and beyond 31st March 2025. I am ready to file online; my return is completed and saved. It's all teed up, but I'm waiting to see what may or may not change before 31 March. I'm sure the system will handle a flood of additional filings in a short space of time.😉

I think this is one of the great fears of this new tax interpretation: it has opened up a whole new personal revenue stream for unscrupulous TRD staff, who will do you a favour for "the usual". Another reason why IMM & TRD are unlikely to be bedfellows - both are competing for "the usual", and combining their procedures might screw that stream up for one.

Thanks! Yes, my filing online will be well below my TEDA, giving a total income after TEDA of about THB90k, so no tax due. I think I will just file online and not upload supporting financial documents, and as you suggest, if they want to see them, to go in person. Uploading complicated documents such as I have described, will cause more confusion to the TRD checker and would probably result in the same outcome, (a need to visit in person, and explain). The only fly in that ointment was a comment on the last visit, was that they would need "certified true" copies of statements. (I'm not sure how my foreign bank would react to that; I download my statements online through my online banking.)

Thanks. That all seems quite reasonable. My quandary is whether to upload foreign bank statements, (which are complicated, as they are a composite multicurrency; if TRD were seeking to verify the amounts they would struggle without a reconciliation, which I have done on Excel). Were you asked for statements, or proof of the figures that were submitted? As I said, I have all of this, but as it's not simply "pension in", "telegraphic transfer out", but more of some portion of pension in (to foreign account), some drawn in ATM withdrawal (using a foreign credit card), some utilised in Thailand for debit card expenditure, (on a foreign issued debit card), some utilised for debit via QR code (on a foreign bank app) and much in between. No Thailand bank inward remittances.

@NoDisplayName Can you remind me: did you say you submitted supporting documents when you submitted online? Given my situation, (supporting documents would be composite multicurrency account bank statements from a foreign bank), I'm not sure if it's the best course of action to submit, or not.

Thanks. Yes, all legible and scanned and can send it as the supporting documents file with my online reporting. No idea what TRD will make of it, but I can explain it to them, if I'm asked to do so. I suspect in many cases they want documentary evidence on file, but do not review it. It's just a box ticking exercise, not unlike the forests of paper required at visa extension at IMM.

With both your suggestions, I am only "transferring", "remitting", "bringing in" by: 1) ATM using a foreign card 2) Using a debit card on a foreign account 3) Using FPS QR app on a foreign account There is no money "transferred" into Thailand in the normal sense, and I think TRD might not be able to understand that. I do however have the ATM withdrawal slips, the debit card transaction slip, and the FPS QR code transaction slip... in all about 74 items, which I could scan and copy for them. I deliberately started retaining them since 01 Jan 2024.

Foreigner guy asks what to do if we get conflicting statements from TRD office, if you know you owe tax and need to file, but TRD staff send you away. Answer -- basically, learn Thai. Translator says "sensative question... hahahah ..(nervous laughter)" to which foreigner guy gives him an out by offering stupid foreigners can't speak Thai. @NoDisplayName & @KhunHeineken Yes, I felt the same way about this webinar, TRD Q&A. Blaming the various interpretations/responses given by different TRD officers/offices reported by many foreigners "on language difficulties" is completely wrong, (in my experience). Every inquiry I have made to TRD, by phone or in person within Sathorn district (there are several offices) have received varying replies, and have been made by a Thai person in Thai. Language has nothing to do with it. A complete lack of clarity from TRD management is to blame. Of course it's a "sensitive subject", because it exposes the incompetence of this exercise, the norm for Thai bureaucracy. For me the issue is submitting bank statements of my accounts in another country, where the transactions, (ATM withdrawals, debit card usage, QR debits and pensions and dividends all take place). I have prepared an Excel reconciliation sheet, but it would be difficult to follow if the checker here is not familiar with a composite multicurrency bank statement, and when for example my UK State Pension is paid into my UK account and partially transferred to my foreign multicurrency account in GBP, and then converted to HKD or THB depending on my required usage. But if it's paper they want, however meaningless to them, they can have it. My only fear is giving all this information, like name & account numbers and data protection being flouted, as it routinely is by government agencies.

Spot on! And one single passbook savings account in Thailand.

3 separate PND90s in 2024....1) for 2022 2) for 2023 3) for 2024, this including tax assessable under new interpretation ?

Many thanks.

Thanks. I will file online, and will follow the section numbers you list. Do I need to also then file a PND93 & 94? Can I file going back 3 years on the PND90, or is it covered in 3 separate PND93 & 94 (I can't find those forms on Google)?

as I had a yearly bank statement with me detailing all my remittances to Thailand going to include my bank statements @chang50 @Andycoops Are you referring to Thailand banks' statements? If so, are you submitting these as "certified true copies"? The bank statements to support my "remittances" (in reality ATM, Debit Card, FPS QR) are all overseas banks. They are composite statements, in multicurrencies. I was verbally advised they would have to be "certified true" copies, which I imagine will be a novel concept to a non-Thai bank, (having to certify their own statements); certainly not an exercise without a fee, even if they agree to do it at all.

@NoDisplayName we've discussed this issue before, but I wonder if you can tell me where in Section 1 (or Section 3?) I put the Withholding Tax Refund? Let's assume I have gross interest income of THB7000 pa and WHT of THB1000. Into which box do I insert these. Also, what if I want to claim for the years 2024, 2023 & 2022? Can they all go on the 2024 return? (I have been informed - unverified by TRD - that WHT refunds don't go on PND90. Thanks, if you can help clarify.

Yes. They haven't thought it through, and there isn't a "one size fits all". Even the employment of an expensive accountant isn't going to bring clarity, if the TRD officers don't themselves have answers to the average Joe like me.

Exactly my experience, (of going to my local TRD office in Silom, Bangkok), that the officers (staff) therein had only the simplest grasp of how a non Thailand income earning foreigner can show this assessable income on the PND90. The concept of assessable income accessed through a foreign bank by ATM or debit card, or FPS QR, and not transferred in the simplest sense by a telegraphic transfer is, in my direct experience, not a concept they can understand. If they cannot understand it, how are they supposed to assess a filing? Providing supporting documents is not a simple issue. The different change brought in by P161 & P162 does not provide any method by which the tax filing can be made on PND90. Certainly the tax officers I have spoken to do not seem to have any consistent answers, some of which include "no need to file", which contravenes P161 & P162. If the TRD has not bothered to think through HOW they expect Thailand tax residents to file, we are left with a complete shambles. It's the usual case of cart before the horse. I'm sure that's why they were glad to see the back of me. ...see above🙄

Yes, I know I need to file, based on having assessable income over THB60K. I know how to complete the PND90, and after all TEDA, the amount due is zero. The calculation shows a sum well below the taxable amount. But when it goes through the system (by e-filing), is it going to open me up to more multiple hours to prove that I am well below the taxable amount, if documentary proof is requested? Will that documentary proof even be understood? My experience through research at TRD indicates a resounding "no". On top of this, questions asked (to TRD staff) have received completely different answers, when asked again, or at a different office.

I have in fact done nothing (in terms of filing a tax return). I have spent multiple hours collating information that produces a net zero tax due. I am waiting for more dust (not PM2.5😁) to settle before proceeding. (I have however obtained a TIN, through dint of my pink ID, but it can be used to claim the withholding tax refund.)

The only refund I will claim is for the 15% withholding tax on the previous 3 years on my deposit. Normally I wouldn't bother, but having obtained a TIN, I will. It only amounts to about THB7,000. But hey, ho. Why not?

That is the only thing I am claiming to be my income. I have zero Thailand income, that hasn't already been taxed (withholding tax), as per below post.

From what I gather, (in a subsequent break down of the actual Thai conversation), the Thai lady thought my UK State Pension was paid in UK, (which it is), and then I transferred it directly to my Thai bank, which I don't. I transfer it to an account in Hong Kong, in GBP, and then convert that to HKD or THB, and not the full amount, because I have a multicurrency account. The reconciliation process which she thinks is going to be straightforward, is going to be far from that. And with 74 such transactions (which are direct "remittances"), they are subdivided, depending on currency transaction. I have a complete record, extrapolated from the composite bank statements. If I provide the bank statements, they will have to have several trails to follow, in order to reach the source. Sure, they can go through that process, but it will take time and effort on both our parts, which I think they do not appreciate.

Although not her exact words, "no need to file" was the gist of it. (The conversation was in Thai, so I gleaned this after the meeting.)