CRUNCHER

Thanks for a detailed post Ken. Could you clarify a couple of things?

I presume you are on a retirement visa? Correct?

I presume your wife is Thai , but travels on a USA passport, hence she needs a visa? Correct?

If so does she have a dependant Visa?

If so any problems with new regulation?

"Kite Flying", as this practice is known, is common with governments and public companies the World over. The fact that the Bangkok office is the only one that seems to know about this gives some support the the theory that this is a "Kite Flying" exercise. What gives cause for concern is that Immigration seems to be actually applying this new procedure in practice in Bangkok. This does not normally happen in "Kite Flying" cases.

Time will tell!

There used to one on Theprassit Soi 17, just down from Theprassit. Don't know if it's still there.

An old thread. Don't know if info is up to date.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/lofiversion/...php/t70659.html

I apologise if this has been covered already, it is a few days old. If it has I missed it and cannot now find it. Below is an extract from the Pattaya City Expats Club Newsletter for 2nd to 9th September. Any confirmation from another source? If so is this policy cancelled or just postponed?

“The meeting was opened by Jim Jones, who was making his first appearance as MC. His first task was to introduce Barry Kenyon, Honorary British Consul who was making a welcome return visit to announce some breaking news about retirement visas – good news for a change. Barry announced that the Commander of the Pattaya Immigration Office told him that he received a notice from his superiors that the requirement to obtain a stamp from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Bangkok as verification of the authenticity of the Embassy letter certifying pension income has been cancelled. This requirement was initially supposed to go into effect on October 1, 2007,”

Let's make it simpler for you to answer, then: whose countries have the most xenophobic immigration laws? Westerners' or Thais'?

We are in danger of getting a little off topic, but I do not which to be more evasive than necessary.

Many western counties are just as "xenophobic" as Thailand. Ask an Indian who needs a visa to even transit UK as I need one to transit India. My best answer at this point - about the same.

Question 1 is unanswerable because not every country even gazettes what are often regarded as procedural matters. Anyway it is less than clear to what extent this is being enforced in Thailand, apart from the odd case in Bangkok, before the amendment is published. So lets not jump to use the X word.

Question 2. Wait for the dust to settle. Grandfathering may yet happen. Wait for the new regulations to be published before using the X word.

Whatever the outcome this is no excuse to call all Thais xenophobic or racist which some posters have done.

Whose countries have racist, xenophobic immigration laws?

As to which countries have racist immigration laws, the answer is just about every country. Almost by definition just about all immigration laws are racist to one extent or another. That is no excuse to deride the people of those countries as being xenophobic (which is not the same as racist).

Every country has the right to have immigration laws it deems fit and necessary for the running of the country; whether people wishing to go to that country like it or not. Thailand is no exception. A great many countries treat people from one country differently from people of another country. This is racist, but often there are reasons (good or not as the case may be). If you don’t like it you don’t go there.

Thai Immigration has a long way to go before it gets things even close to right. As to the way this issue has been implemented (speed, lack of grandfathering etc) as I said in my post this is unusual even for Thai Immigration. I think we need to see exactly what happens when the dust settles before calling all Thais xenophobic. Although the situation is not good, it might well not be quite as bad in the end as it seems now.

Perhaps there is some good reason for this change and the way it has been dealt with. I must confess it is difficult to think of one at the moment. The point being we need to see some clarification before we panic or resort to name calling.

Kind Regards, Dave

Thanks for your comments Dave. I agree with pretty much all you say in this and in earlier posts.

My comments relating to racist farang was in response to earlier posts. It makes my blood boil to see Thai people ladled xenophobic because of what the Immigration Dept. does or does not do. I hoped (perhaps too optimistically) that when some posters lable Thais xenophobic they are themselves guilty of the same crime. As to the use of “farang” and “TIT”, I agree, but I think it is, to some extent, not a question of not what you say, more a question of the way you say it.

I agree with you that Immigration has a long way to go before it gets things right. The subject of this thread is yet one more example. Given the widespread concern that it has raised, to say that a public statement (press release?) giving the definitive position would be helpful is an understatement.

The problem is that every time Immigration finds a hole in it’s system it puts a patch on it. The subject of this thread is one more example. By now the system has so many patches it is unstable, unfair and almost unworkable. What is needed is a complete revamp of the entire visa system. Perhaps I am asking too much. TIT (Oops!)

I understand people are worried by this. My wife is not far off 50 and so perhaps I am not as badly off as some. We will have to see what happens when the dust settles. Whatever happens the Thais are some of the nicest people on earth.

A sample reading of posts in this thread tells me that if I were Thai I wouldn't want most of these farang in my country either. I think they feel the same way about the country being flooded with farang as most of us farang do - enough is enough!

Could you please stop spamming this thread with your inane posts?

Nothing inane about it. This thread, along with a lot of other threads, is polluted with outrageously racist comments made by xenophobic farang. These comments by racist farang do nothing enhance the reputation of farang amongst ordinary Thais, not to mention the Immigration Department who apparently monitor this forum.

To deal with the subject of this thread - there is obviously something wrong with this (ou understanding of what is happening) or something more behind it that we do not know about. I am not referring to what has been done, but the way it has been done. I.e. Introduced suddenly, without notice and, it would seem, that offices outside of Bangkok have not been informed of the changes despite the apparent urgency. The lack of grandfathering is also odd. Normally Thai authorities are quite sympathetic in this respect. The answer is probably in the reason behind it; whatever that might be.

The best advice has already be mentioned more than one – don’t panic, but wait and see what actually comes out.

Many Consulates have always used a six month period for a two or more entry tourist visas.

Name one. Just so I can recommend it to friends.

More then 2 entries? I tried about 8 years ago to apply for a 3xTR in KL but they told me that because the visa only lasts for 3 months it was no point in giving out 3xTR.

Birmingham Hull - there's two.

Think you will find this is all to do with anti terrorism/money laudering. Banks and financial institutions the world over now want more information to open an account. Anyone tried opening a bank account in Thailand recently.

A shame, but it is a sign of the times and the kibd of world we live in.

Argentina does not detain visa overstayers. At least western tourist types and I am certain about that. I am sure there are others.

I really do believe Thailand is over zealous in the enforcement of these matters. 3 month address reports in person? Excessive. I don't why they are so over zealous but my theory is it is a symptom of xenophobia.

Yes! They are for real. No doubt about it. Beware and do all you can to avoid the sorry fate of this poor schlub,

I never said don't respect the rules and don't respect the total power they have. But I am saying, kicking a poor guy when he is down for such a minor thing is very unseemly.

I don't like to see people in trouble, but quite frankly some people ask for it. The moral is "when in Rome do as the Thais do". Overstay in Argentina you might be OK, but anyone who has been in Thailand 5 minutes konows how seriously such things are taken here. If you can't do the time don't do the crime. Simple as that.

call me greedy but, a retreat is a good thing for us now

Hi there Greedy. Sorry. Couldn't resist it.

Careful mate - This is irrelevant if you retire outside of the E.U. Essentially the UK defaults on its insurance program. Yes they pay the pension but it does not increase (over your entire lifetime), there have been European Court of Human Rights cases on this subject. Research the BBC web site to cross check.

This is only partly correct. In some countries outside of EU you can get increases, but which ones I am not sure. Unfortunately Thailand is not one of them.

A test case is going to European Court, possibly later this year, to challenge this. It is being taken up by a woman fromCanada. A similar case was thrown out by British courts some time ago and this is the next step. It is still not resolved, but watch this space and live in hopes.

My wife sent Australian dollars, using internet banking, to her sister in Thailand reently. We always send dollars to take advantage of the better exchange rate in Thailand than in Australia. We have done this many times to the Siam Commercial Bank with no hassle at all and the funds are usually in the Thai baht account the day after we make the transfer. This time it was to the the Krung Thai Bank and the funds did not appear. The sister went to her branch to be told it would take at least a month to clear the funds! My wife was having none of that and phone KT bank HQ and was told that there is a policy to ask the account holder if they want to keep the funds in dollars or change them to baht - this, even though the account number to which the funds are sent is a baht account! The problem here is that the bank makes no effort to ask the customer this question and holds on to the funds, (maybe for a month!), and coincidentally making some interest along the way. To be fair, after my wife's tirade the KT did phone her sister and promise to transfer the funds immediately.....we are still waiting...

Has anyone else come across this problem? How will it affect those of us who transfer funds to our own accounts in Thailand while we are overseas?

Should we change banks or are they all doing this?

Wontok

This is one area Bangkok Bank is good. Usually my money arrives (from Hong Kong) the same day; at latest the next day. Don't know how your internet banking works. I include an instruction on my transfer to the bank here in Thailand to exchange funds to Thai Baht.Never had a problem. (Shouldn't speak too soon I suppose.)

I have not heard anything about an onward air ticket being required by any person entering the country with out a visa,(30 day tourist visa on arrival) I do this quite often on an EU passport,has anyone on this forum been refused entry??

The letter below was in this mornings Nation

Immigration officials offer an unfriendly welcome to visitors

Thailand is a beautiful country with delicious food and a wonderful culture. Thais are also so friendly. To any foreigner though the people that ruin the image of the country are immigration. I leave my hotel, the receptionist and porters give me smiles, a student passing on the street gives me a smile, the taxi driver to the airport gives a smile, the toilet-cleaner gives me a smile, but when I get to immigration I get nothing but a look of contempt. Immigration officials are the first people that any foreigner meets when he arrives in a new country and Thai immigration really sends the wrong message across. Another foreigner told me lately that Thai immigration have to do a training course on being polite to foreigners. If this is true then I dare not imagine what they would be like otherwise.

Their new policy on giving out 30-day visas has changed matters so that you need to show a ticket out of the country. The problem is they change regulations without telling anyone in advance. Last week, I went to Cambodia by land to get a new 30-day visa and when I came back into Thailand I was refused entry because I didn't have my onward ticket with me I tried to explain that it was in Bangkok, but they were so rude and refused to allow an old man like myself back in because of a stupid policy. In his eyes I could have been left to rot in Cambodia with not a single dollar on me. In the end I had to phone my wife to ask her to fax a copy of the ticket through. I was very lucky.

Thailand's immigration officials are the most impolite, rude and arrogant that I have ever dealt with in Southeast Asia.

Tiger Trevor

If you arrive without a visa, the rule wants that you can show an air ticket out of the country within 30 days of your arrival.

This rule has been there for ages but has just recently being applied at 1 or 2 border points between Thailand and Cambodia used widely by 'eternal tourists' seeking to re-enter endlessly on 30 days stamp entries.

Some 'real tourists' get caught in the net. To avoid this rule, bettwer get a tourist visa before arrival in Thailand.

Most posts indicate problem is at land borders. Anyone had any problem at the airport?

Hmm...looks like the actual terms lie somewhere in the middle. From the HK Lands Dept. site:

http://www.landsd.gov.hk/en/service/landpolicy.htm

So in a nutshell:

Older properties with pre-existing longer-term leases are being honoured.

Properties built between 1985 and 1997 have leases expiring 2047, but can be extended for another 50 years.

Properties built after the handover have fixed 50 year leases which are renewable for another 50 years (but the govt still reserves the right not to renew!).

Never easy, is it?!

Sure is difficult sometimes. Interestingly I bought a flat in early 2002 and my lease expires 30th June 2047 45 years). The difference between theory and practice I suppose.

As far as Thailand is concerned, you could not plant HKs system here, because the Government does not own all the land. However there could be some mileage in something similar, especially if the Government found out that they could make some money.

For example owners of land could hand over the land to the Government in return for a long lease and the payment of rent. This would help house owners whose land is owned by a company with nominee shareholders. Existing condos might be problematic, but at the completion of new development the developer turns over land ownership to the Government and condo purchasers would get long leases. This might help Thai paranoia over foreigners owning land and provide the Government with income. 49% ownership of condos would become irrelevant. Rent need not be exorbitant. For example on 100 sq. mtr. flat in HK I pay about 15,000 baht a year.

I appreciate what I have said is very simplistic and I can see arguments against it. It could, however, provide a starting point for thought in resolving many problems that exist with the Thai housing situation at the moment.

Quite an interesting (if you like that sort of thing!) paper from one of the HK universities about the relative valuation of long-term (999 year) leases in HK versus short-term ones here:

http://www.citb.gov.hk/cib/psdas/content/d...aper_KWChau.pdf

A fairly meaningless paper. Conduit Road is not typically of the Hong Property market. There may well be a few longer leases (beyond 2047) left, but very very few.

There is not actually 50 year leases as such. If you buy a new property today the lease will run out on 30th June 2047 i.e. 40 years

Having lived in Hong Kong over 30 years and bought and sold proterty since 1989 as well as knowing Hong Kong people well, I can say a 40 year lease is very accepable. It is a liftime in the Hong Kong scenario. It will only become problematic when you get to the stage where a mortgage term will eceed the lease life (in fact banks willl not normally grant mortgages beyond the life of the lease). Typically mortgages in Hong Kong are 10 to 20 years so this will not start to be a problem until nearing 2027 and will not become critical until 2037. In fct the age of the property will be more of an issue until then.

I perhaps should have said almost all land have lease that expire in 2047, bu I can assure you that is the case.

dada - I must confess it is difficult for me to understand why anyone would now buy in Hong Kong, commercially Thailand is a far better bet.

I think HK is still not a bad place to invest. Foreigners can buy anything they like, and whilst properties there are all leasehold (the only freehold land in HK is St. John's Cathedral in Central - I'd love to know what that's worth now, at least in theory!), the leasehold is usually 999 years rather than the 50 as was mentioned above. There's no CGT, money is still pouring in from the mainland, and space is comparatively limited. Law is largely based on the the English model and at an everyday level, corruption is low.

The biggest downside I can see is the often-high entry price. Of course you could just buy REITs to gain exposure that way instead (and expect to see other property derivatives coming on-stream in the next year or so too).

I have owned a number of properties in Hong Kong. None of the leases go beyond 2047. There are a few exceptions in NT I believe, but I do not know details.

Until the Sino/British agreement few leases extended beyond 1997. This made banks jittery on the question of mortgages and of course property delopers in investing in new developments. This was one of the reasons why the British Government pushed the Chinese into talks on Hong Kong's future. When the leases were extended it was done unilaterally by the HK Government - no cost. Presumably that will happen as 2047 draws near, but nobody knows at this time.

HK is a good place to invest in property if you can afford it. Like anywhere else you need to understrand the market.

Some people in the business in Pattaya were recently predicting that farang ownership of condos would soon be increased to 70%, but that rumour seems to have died a death

CRUNCHER - I must confess I did consider the old trading port on the Chinese main land (all be it involuntarily by Chinese standards), but there all property is owned by the state and your right to continue to own it appears to be rubber-stamped.

Has the same happened of Hong Kong or was it always leasehold?

Thailand does offer free hold condominiums admittedly under a 49% rule.

Basically it has always been that way (there are a very few minor exceptioons in the New Territories). Leases used to variable, but after the handover to China in 1997 all leases were extended to 2047 on the basis that China promised no changes fo 50 years. What happens in 2047 is anyones guess at the moment.

The system works well, but prices - WOW!

I have been contributing to other threads on the Thai High end Condominium market, but do not wish to confuse issues so have started a new thread.

I note the 49% rule on legal foreign ownership of a Thai condominium. I do however have some questions that I cannot answer.

Is there a similar rule in Malaysia?

Is there a similar rule in Hong Kong?

Is there a similar rule in Singapore?

A lot of high-end Thai condominiums achieve day one 40-50% sales. Is this a coincidence?

As for Hong Kong there are no restrictions. If you have the money you can buy what you want, where you want and as much as you want.

All land in Hong Kong is owned by the Government. All flats, houses etc are effectively on leasehold or rather the land on which they are built is. Almost all leases are good until 2047. Of couse all flat, house owners etc pay Government rent every quarter. Could be the way for Thailand to go, but I doubt it.

Thanks Lopburi. On the ball as always

Can anyone please tell me the cost of getting a "Residence Certificate in Thailand" from the Immigration Department? The one that is needed for driving licences, bank accounts etc. I can find the form on their website, but not the cost. Also how long does it take?

For what I understand is that they are counting days and not entries.

Does anyone have a definite answer/clarification on the method of counting days/entries.

I am leaving for BKK in a couple of weeks and already have 3 stamps within the past 1/2 year, but far from 90 days as follows:

Entry 05 Oct 2006 - Depart 08 Oct 2006 (4 days)

Entry 12 Oct 2006 - Depart 15 Oct 2006 (4 days)

Entry 01 Feb 2007 - Depart 12 Feb 2006 (12 Days)

My next entry will be on 05 April 2007

You are allowed 90 days stay within 180 so you are fine for your next entry

On 5th April it will be 182 days since your first entry and in that time you will have stayed in Thailand 20 days. I am not sure how the 180 days rolls forward, but presumably, as it rolls forward you will be able to get 3 back to back 30 days entries.

This raises the question how the 180 day part of the equasion is going to work. Anyone any thoughts? Presumably you could alternate 90 days visa with one, or even 2, 30 days entries for ever?

I got a double entry visa for thailand but i need to move several time from Thailand to Taiwan.

Is it the re-entry permit still available?

Is it possible to get it in any immigration office?

Anybody has recent experience about this?

Thx everybody

YES!

Single 1000 THB, Multiple 3000 THB.

Also if you submit the form by e-mail you will get fast track service when you arrive at immigration (Bangkok)

Do you have the email address?

Also, if you have to exit the country twice in a short period of time (and don't want a multiple entry), can you get two single entries stamped into your passport before you use up one of them?

I am not still enterend in Thailand and i will have to enter and exit again after few days. I am searching a way to not fire my double entry visa staying there only 1 week.

Wich is the best way? How can i apply the form online?

Is it possible to get the re-entry permit in Samui Immigration office?

Thx everybody

This is a great forum

If you have unused entries on a tourist visa, can you enter Thailand on the 30 day visa exempt entry? This is useful if you want to stay a short time and save visa entries for longer stays. This might help OP and info on this would be useful