anrcaccount

Not really a Catch 22 , just standard banking KYC. There are multiple ways to approach this. Let me give you 3: You can get a TIN ( agents start at 3000 THB for the service or you can try yourself) , and then provide it to your UK offshore Bank. That doesn't mean you need to pay any tax in Thailand, nor that you are liable for any tax. You can give your UK offshore bank any 13 digit number as your TIN. They will not do any validation on it. I'm not recommending this, but I do believe it would be possible, and IMO would be no further questions asked. Some foreign banks will also accept 'Am tax resident but do not yet have a Tax number'. Yours may not, but many do.

Not sure what you mean by this. Do you believe it then would be be 'safer' to make the gift from the donor, directly to a Thai account? Or do you believe the gift regulations don't apply, to any remittances from a foreign account? That a gift (supported by documentation) definitely qualifies as unassessable when it is given within Thailand, be it Thailand to Thailand or foreign transfer into Thailand. Thanks for clarifying, I agree. I cannot see any way it's possible for the remitted gift to be considered anything but a gift. There's no way it can be considered income. Under what category of income could it be..... seems completely infeasible. My take from reading a number of opinions / sources is that it is 'safer' to make the gift outside Thailand and for the recipient to then remit it. Personally, I think either way is 'safe'. But having the recipient remit the gift completely negates any chance of the donor/giftee being liable for a 'remittance'. Always sound advice.

Disagree, it's not 'very probably taxable' . How would she declare these remitted funds? Certainly, not Thai PIT, they are not income, it's a gift. The exemptions apply. For context , consider an example of a larger gift: 100M THB received from a spouse. A Thai taxpayer can choose to exclude the excess above the exemption (100M-20M exempt = net 80M THB ) from their PIT and pay a flat 5% tax on this. That way, they pay 4M THB tax rather than paying much more if this was included in PIT progressive rates. Gifts in excess of the exempt threshold "will not need to be included together with other income when computing the annual PIT liability." Ergo, Gifts below the exemption threshold, do not need to be included in any PIT calculation. How could there be any other possible interpretation of the funds remitted by this spouse? Not sure what you mean by this. Do you believe it then would be be 'safer' to make the gift from the donor, directly to a Thai account? Or do you believe the gift regulations don't apply, to any remittances from a foreign account?

Good post. IMO- If any enforcement of the foreign income remittance actually occurs (by no means a certainty) , the gifting provisions will be relied on extensively, by anyone who takes good professional advice. Generally you seem spot on with everything, a couple of comments below: 2 comments on this. 1 - There's no need for it to be a brokerage account, it could be any foreign bank account anywhere outside Thailand, and you could fund it by using any means. Selling your funds to do this is one example, but it could be anything. 2- Assuming 'her individual account ' = a foreign account. Yes, this is conservatively 'safer' than you directly remitting the gift to a Thai bank account. It appears, it is 'safer' for the donee/recipient/giftee to be the one who remits the funds to Thailand. AND there is no Thai Income tax for the spouse regarding these funds, as they have not remitted any assessable income. Agree, as above.

Incorrect, again. In the past six days I've posted 3 times (now 4), while you, nearly 100............

If none of these threads had taken place, everyone would know far less than they do today. But because they did take place, people can make informed decisions about they think they should do. Either way, everyone would arrive at the same point eventually, one way is with the benefit of knowledge and time, the other is reactive and in a rush and panic. No, 'everyone' wouldn't arrive at the same point eventually. These threads, or similarly trusting the advice/consultancy of 'expat' tax advisors (which is apparently technically illegal) have caused some people to: Firstly, waste their time & energy - by trying to self file and in many cases being denied even getting a TIN. Secondly, next year when/if they do manage to file DIY, or one of the (IMO predatory) agencies does it for them - they have wasted their money. Those who didn't read them, continue to not file, as they have not filed for many years, with no consequences, and have not wasted their time nor money. Thailand has had minimal/no tax enforcement on foreigners for many years despite many technically being liable. There is no indication yet, this will change. So, it is not a significant risk currently.

Do not agree this is 'widely acknowledged'. Consider, this may be simply intentional, and there is nothing new to communicate. If the TRD was even remotely serious about collecting/enforcing foreign remitted income for the 100's of 1000's of expats who have never paid it before, they would need to do a lot more than publish 2 internal directives, & 1 infographic.

I've long thought that, and wondered why no one else has done that, or if they have, why they haven't, (to my knowledge) shared that experience on this magnum opus hopeless. Let them guide you. Sounds sensible.....however: There have been multiple reports of members turning up to various TRD offices, then leaving without a TIN and without being able to pay any tax. Also, multiple reports that the TRD phone helpline goes unanswered. If all else fails, you could print 3x copies of this thread and take it into the TRD office?

Your anecdotal evidence that only a few foreigners file tax returns in Thailand is based on the fact only a few AN members have admitted to doing so and I am one of them. You are misguided if you think that the AN membership includes a majority of foreigners in Thailand or is truly representative of them. My anecdotal evidence is fueled by my annual visits to the TRD office to file a return, a journey that you appear not to make, and the sight of other foreigners doing exactly as I was doing. So no, it is not self evident that only a few foreigners file Thai taxes, which is far far far from beyond reasonable doubt, especially since so many foreigners rely on their monthly pension income, to qualify for their long stay visa, using the income method.. I can't believe you're actually doubling down on this. You honestly believe any significant number of (non working) foreigners file Thai taxes? What % do you think it is? You honestly believe that retirees using the income method have been declaring same year foreign income remitted? Astounding.

And your proof of these things is where? You don't need proof that the sky is blue. Some things are self evident. It's beyond any reasonable doubt that the vast majority of expats don't even have a TIN, and have never filed a Thai tax return. As the #1 most prolific tax poster on the forum, you should be clear on this by now.

No, not "lots" of expats have filed Thai tax returns. It's actually very, very few, as a % proportion. The vast majority of those using the income method for their visas have never filed a Thai tax return, despite many technically breaching the laws, for many years, with zero consequences. IMO, next year will be no different.

Very well said.

JING ROR !!!???!!! Sure, however you are under no obligation to file a return in a year you spend under 180 days in Thailand , and in those years you are a Non Resident. Therefore according the the Revenue Code "A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand." https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html I can understand why the partner found this difficult to believe, because it is unbelievable, defies logic, and is unworkable.

You're now deflecting to a different point, I was referring to stocks and the remittance of the proceeds of stock sales. Stocks are discrete, fungible assets, the owner can choose not only which specific stock they sell ( e.g. I can sell my MSFT , or my NVDA) and then remit, but also have accounting methods (LIFO/FIFO/MAC) to use when a single stock is involved and a portion of this is sold, and remitted. Now regarding remittance of property sales, it's incorrect to state "the entire value of the transaction is regarded as capital gains". Since you won't believe me, I suggest you refer to your friend at Expat Tax. In their property capital gains webinar, they state: "Remittance of original capital (no gain) is not taxable". So, if you sell a property for what you paid for it, or less, you can then remit the entire proceeds to Thailand as non assessable income. For remittance of capital gain from property sale, two deduction/calculation methods are available - one is an actual cost method ( deduction of renovations, sale costs etc from sale price then deduct purchase price to get net capital gain), the other is a blanket % deduction on sale price based on the number of years the property is held. On your opinion above, Expat Tax does not agree with you, as they have published different available calculation methods for capital gains for stocks, and for sale of property.

There's no such thing as a CG principle (correctly spelt principal) remittance ( without gain). Neither is such thing for income tax purposes as principal "derived from gain" , it doesn't exist. When a stock is sold, the proceeds consist of the cost ( principal/capital) plus or minus any gain or loss. If there is a gain, only the gain can be considered taxable income. This video states via slides that: 1- "remittance of original capital" isn't taxable. 2- If it's s a trading platform (GIA) stock portfolio, each stock assets separate out. No the exchange but the individual asset. So, I stand by my statement below: "Stock assets can be separated. If you, for example, hold $1M THB in 2 separate stocks, lets call them A & B. You sell A for a capital gain. You sell B for what you paid for it. You remit the proceeds of B into Thailand. Thailand cannot tax you on the unremitted gains on the sale of stock A. This isn't possible because the gains are unremitted, and to try and tax them would be taxing worldwide income. The TRD cannot look at your entire offshore portfolio, only at what is remitted to Thailand. "

Firstly, you can remit capital/principal without gain. Sometimes stocks are sold at cost or at a loss, therefore there are no gains. Secondly, the prorated principle you describe ( that I don't believe is a proven fact but let's say it is for the purposes) is only in relation to a single stock or a single holding. Stock assets can be separated. If you, for example, hold $1M THB in 2 separate stocks, lets call them A & B. You sell A for a capital gain. You sell B for what you paid for it. You remit the proceeds of B into Thailand. Thailand cannot tax you on the unremitted gains on the sale of stock A. This isn't possible because the gains are unremitted, and to try and tax them would be taxing worldwide income. The TRD cannot look at your entire offshore portfolio, only at what is remitted to Thailand.

That's a different scenario to the one I outlined, but based on the current remittance rules, you would not be remitting income to Thailand. You would be remitting stock principal with no capital gain.

Disagree with your view on this. The only concern is "does the remittance contain income". Fact = remittance does not contain any income. There is only capital remitted, no gain. You don't have to prove the source of the funds for the purchase which occurred outside Thailand, only the source of the remittance into Thailand, and then - only if asked. Even in the ( IMO extremely unlikely) event that your logic held, then you can do the same thing, leave the capital gains overseas, do the purchase>sale only with the principal that existed as of 1 Jan 2024, then remit that.

I don't think you can simply launder away your previous gains this way. You will have to provide documentation that shows the funds origins backwards until you reach a date before 2024. Then the total gain will be accessable. You're conflating two unrelated things. 1 - Foreign sourced income earned before Jan 1 2024 is exempt regardless of when remitted. Not relevant to the situation I'm describing. 2- Capital gains earned after January 1 2024 can be considered assessable income, if remitted to Thailand by a tax resident. The scenario I describe, does not involve any remittance of capital gain. This is within the guidelines. It's quite different to what is known as a 'wash sale' in other jurisdictions. This would of course change, if Thailand began taxing worldwide income regardless of remittance - a long way off that yet.

With statements showing purchase of the last stock without gains dated after 2023, you would probably be asked for documentation of where the money originated, leading back to before 2024. I don't follow your logic here. The remitted funds originated from a stock sale, you would have documentation to prove it. The remitted funds are not subject to income tax as they do not contain any income. Simple.

Further substantiated from this 12-year old BP article: Not an exact fit, but good enuf IMO to use for an account with comingled pre 2024 and 2024 onward funds. Thus, FIFO would allow that exemption for pre 2024 income to be what you self assess as to what you remitted. Agreed in general, but this highlights the absurdity of the whole situation. In a complete absence of any clear guidance from the Thai TRD, potential taxpayers are forced to interpret their own rules, from a 12 year old media article. You couldn't make this up!

I wonder how that will work. That means you will have to file a tax report for a year you are not a tax resident. How about if you stay non tax resident for several years or for ever. This is a good illustration of why the concept of "remittance" taxation is very uncommon, present only in a minuscule number of places in the world . It's basically unenforceable, and add that to a jurisdiction like Thailand, you have unenforceable ++++. Lets assume the (IMO extremely) unlikely scenario that these laws start to be strictly enforced. Simply sell stock for gains, repurchase another stock. Sell that repurchased stock immediately at cost > remit the sale proceeds to Thailand. No capital gains are remitted. It would appear that anyone who pays Thai tax on stock capital gains remitted to Thailand, is doing themselves a disservice.

Be very careful relying on anything from this company, that sprung up only in October 2023, and is running a heavy marketing campaign capitalizing on expat concerns regarding taxation. This is misinformation, is incorrect. Good example of why this company is to be treated with caution. Below are the facts on what info CRS actually shares. There's no way this information shared can include individual foreign ATM and foreign credit card transactions. Table 4 ( page 60) it defines exactly what financial information is shared which is only yearly aggregate account balances, does not include individual transactions, excepting the cases of income as specified in table 5. Source: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf Also, read the wikipedia page on the CRS , Relevant section, below: Each participating country will annually automatically exchange with the other country the below information in the case of Jurisdiction A with respect to each Jurisdiction B reportable account, and in the case of Jurisdiction B with respect to each Jurisdiction A reportable account:[16] 1.Name, address, Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN) and date and place of birth of each Reportable Person. 2.Account number 3.Name and identifying number of the reporting financial institution; 4.Account balance or value as of the end of the relevant calendar year (or other appropriate reporting period) or at its closure, if the account was closed. 5.Distributions made to the account (dividends, interest, gross proceeds/redemptions, other) Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Reporting_Standard

Not shooting the messenger.. This is a junk article "mash up" of 3 separate news stories. Wouldn't take a single thing from it.

Reality > Theoretical Understanding of Law Multiple reports continue to come in of people being unable get a TIN in the real world. Your view is: - People should lie to the TRD in order to obtain a TIN - TRD officials are lying, as their actions don't agree with your theoretical understanding of the law - Anyone not "smart enough" to get a TIN, shouldn't contemplate living in Thailand The mind boggles.