Mike Lister

I've removed a link to the Bangkok Post, posting such links is very much against forum rules, please read them below: https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

Coffee, need coffee! 🙂

If it seems to be too good to be true, it probably isn't. Agreed with the above poster. The trade in stolen cars cross borders in the region is substantial and hi end cars are the target. Be very very careful, it is worth the premium to buy from a reputable dealer.

The facts speak differently. Prayut was in office from 2014 until 2023. The economy didn't start off well in the early years but did well thereafter, until covid came along. Interestingly, 2014 thru 2016 was when the Thai economy performed poorly and this corresponds with the start of the USD strengthening period. https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/gdp https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/index/dxy

Nonsense, you think far too highly of the role played by expats in Thailand! Thailand is an export led eco0nomy, over 60% of GDP is derived from the export of goods and services and totals over USD 320 bill per year. The 300,000 or so Westerners living in Thailand account for less than USD 10 bill per year.

You can't reduce poverty by lending money to poor people who are already steeped in debt and don't have a business plan. But you can reduce poverty and high risk loans to the poor through better education, reskilling, higher quality products, lower levels of corruption and creating a healthier more competitive economic environment. Open up Thai borders to outside competition, that'll make Thai companies up their game and make them more competitive and make business more sustainable and grow. For interest sake, poverty reduction graph in Thailand since the mid 1980's. That reduction took place because tourism increased, exports increased and GDP increased: https://blogs.worldbank.org/eastasiapacific/reducing-poverty-and-improving-equity-thailand-why-it-still-matters

For those wanting more stimulating theoretical debates about possible future answers to tax related issues, such as Gift and Inheritance. along with case studies, political implications, court judgements, legal supposition and a whole host of aspects to theorise upon, below is where you need to be:

FYI You cannot transfer to an account in your own name.

It's simple maths, the more GDP falls, the higher the percentage of debt is. If today, as per the article, the debt is 91%, that means debt equals 464 bill. Now take 464 bill as a percentage of the 2019 GDP and it falls back to 84%.

What do you not understand that you would like explained further @Celsius ?

Not really, but I have a couple of observations. The first is that it's perhaps helpful to move on from the military years and start looking forward rather than backwards, I know it's nice to have somebody to blame, but!! Secondly is that Thailand is an export led economy, over 63% of GDP is achieved via exports of goods and services. What that means is that the Thai economy is at the mercy of the buyers and if they aint buying, Thailand aint selling and GDP growth is going to suffer. Thirdly, as far as I can see, the PM wants to undermine the credibility of BOT and cause the Baht to sink and FDI to ride away into the sunset. He further wants to go ahead with the giveaway program which will also be highly baht negative. Exactly why he wants those things is a real mystery, but since he does, not having a Finance Minister is probably useful!

If the tax guide was exclusively for the benefit of totally reasonable people, I might agree with what what you have written. But what we have seen thus far is enormous but anecdotal interest in the Gift Tax as a means of skirting Thai tax, many have said outright that it is their easy and simple answer. If ultimately, Thai tax law confirms everyone's hopes that the law is available to use as seen by some, that will be a fabulous outcome, but we are not at that point, yet. The concern is that a majority will see that glass as half full rather than half empty and will end up in difficulty as a result. We have several choices. We can leave the issue open, pending further clarification or we can steer people towards a safer scenario and advise caution. I chose the latter, because, human nature suggests it will mean that people will be less likely to act using Gift Tax. With regard to laying down the law: the simple tax guide is explicit, it is a starting point for people to begin to manage their tax affairs and nothing in the guide will contradict anything said by the RD or the major tax consultancies. There is no obligation for anyone to adhere to what is written in the guide which makes it very clear that further information is needed in several areas. We have already exceeded the boundaries of our initial remit in producing the simple tax guide. We said we would not be able to delve into specifics' of elements such as Capital Gains because it was beyond our knowledge levels and expertise plus the rules vary from country to country. Such things would be reliant on further information from the RD. Despite that, we have continued to push forward and in six weeks have produced a guide that has helped thousands and put an equal number of minds at ease. I am perfectly happy for debates to be held on any aspect of tax, both in this thread and in the 250 page thread that has run for the past six months. I am less comfortable those debates take place in the Simple Tax Guide thread which I see as reserved for known answers, assistance for those with more simple needs and for the identification of unknowns. Any direction provided in that thread will be towards lower risk alternatives and avoid giving false hope. Any discussion in that thread needs to be less complex so that those with limited understanding of tax can easily find the answers they are looking for, unlike in the 7,000 post thread.

Misleading: In 2019, Thailand's GDP was USD 544 bill. and consumer lending (household debt) was 83% or 452 bill. Today, Thailand's GDP is USD 510 bill. and consumer lending is 91% or 464 bill. If Thailand's GDP returned to 2019 levels tomorrow, consumer lending would be 84% The reality is that todays household debt numbers, whilst poor, are not very different to what they were five years ago. https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/gdp https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/households-debt-to-gdp

No, you have to click on the link then post here, sorry.

The long tax thread is still there for anyone who wants to debate anything and everything, posters argued for it to be left open and so it has been. That is the place for the debates you describe, not this one. This thread is designed to supply information and answers to average expats, especially pensioners, who are confused and scared by the subject of tax. As stimulating as the arguments may be, this thread is NOT going down the same road the long thread did, as one poster has already tried to take us this morning! That thread (and others) are still there for anyone who wants to debate theory, posters can stimulate themselves away until there's nothing left, with my blessing.....just not here.

When you sell your shares overseas, you will pay whatever tax is due on that sale at that time, thereafter you will remit those funds to Thailand. The Thai RD will want to understand if those funds are assessable income or not so you must tell them. Your answer will be that only X was earned after 1 January 2024 and that the remainder is not assessable. If, using your example, you purchased those shares for 5 million and you sold them for 5 million, you didn't make a profit so no, no Thai tax is due. If your home country required you to complete a capital gains return on that sale, that is between you and your home country revenue department, it has nothing to to do with Thai RD. All the Thai RD sees is cash which is assessable or not with income that was earned after 1 January 2024 equal to X. One of the problems in this part of the debate is that some posters seem to be confusing Thai Capital Gains rules with the sale of assets in the remitters home country, which of course is of no interest whatsoever to Thailand. When that cash enters Thailand it is cash, it is not a capital gain or an asset that is capable of being charged under capital gains, it is hard cash only.

A capital gain may well be realised only upon the sale of the asset but assessable income for Thai PIT will not care about that. Thai PIT will care about income that was realised after 1 January 2024, not before. Investment holdings that are priced daily are easily capable of being valued on 1 January 2024 and many automatically are so. When those assets are sold and the proceeds remitted to Thailand, the RD rules require only income earned after 1 January 2024 is assessable. The fact that the asset is subject to capital gains rules in the home country matters nothing as far as the Thai RD is concerned, all they want to know is how much of the proceeds were earned after the start of the year.

The asset has to have a valuation dated 1 January 2024 in order to determine what the gain is on that asset when it is subsequently sold and those funds remitted to Thailand. If the asset was sold on 31 January 2024 and the funds remitted to Thailand, the gain on that asset for Thai tax purpose is equal to one month, not the gain since the asset was first acquired. 35) The proceeds from the sale of a capital item such as overseas property, where funds are remitted to Thailand, is one popular source of expat funds, the sale of some investment products such as stocks, shares and bonds is another. Those proceeds typically comprise two parts, capital and profit. If the capital and/or profit was acquired before 1 January 2024, it is free of Thai tax. One way to separate capital and profit may be to have an official valuation or statement that is dated 1 January 2024 since anything earned before that date, is not assessable. Also, if the profit has been the subject of a Capital Gains (CG) return in the home country, that also may be free of Thai tax. Lastly, It is clear from the Sherings Q&A link below that CG resulting from the sale of foreign assets, whilst not resident in Thailand, are free of Thai tax. As a stop gap measure and for planning purposes, selling the assets before moving to Thailand would appear tax efficient. 36) Most types of capital gains are taxable as ordinary income. However, the following capital gains are exempt from tax: a) Capital gains on the sale of shares in a company listed on the Stock Exchange of Thailand, provided that the sale is made on the Stock Exchange of Thailand, and on the sale of investment units in a mutual fund. b) Gains on the sale of non-interest bearing debentures, bills, or debt instruments issued by a corporate entity, except in the case where the bonds or debt instruments were sold for the first time at a price lower than their redemption price to an individual. c) Gains on the sale of securities listed on stock exchanges in the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) member countries and traded through the ASEAN Link, excluding securities in the form of treasury bills, bonds, bills, or debentures. d) Capital gains and investment income earned by a resident from sources outside Thailand are not taxable unless remitted to Thailand in the year of receipt. (this clause will have been changed, in line with the rule change) The following is what has been agreed and documented thus far on this point but is subject to RD confirmation. 37) Capital losses may not be offset against capital gains.

I closed the thread but left a link pointing to here, thinking that the forum doesn't need two threads on the same subject. If the OP or anyone else was unhappy with that decision, they could easily have written to explain why and perhaps the thread could have been reinstated. But they didn't, so I didn't, so it wasn't. Moving on.

I saw that exchange and accept there is still uncertainty regarding the true position in this matter. In the absence of a 100% clarity, I decided to take the low risk route and presume that assessable income could not be gifted as a means of avoiding Thai tax. It is my personal view that the income will need to be taxed in one location or the other. I took that approach in order to manage expectations by the many people who are waiting expectantly in the hope of being able to use Gift Tax as a get out of jail free tax card! When the matter is clarified, it will come as a pleasant surprise to many and no harm will have been done. The alternative was to do nothing and to leave the issue on the list of unknowns which I didn't think was the best approach.

There is already a thread running on this subject, perhaps you will join that one rather than duplicating the debate.

We are not going to debate legal theory, potential ways to evade tax or second guess what the RD may or may not think or do. This thread is focussed on the things that are known and the assumptions that will be made, pending further clarification by the RD. It is perfectly acceptable to raise the question about how something might be done or handled by the RD because the answer may already be known. What is not acceptable in this thread is, as per the second post in the thread, that we enter into lengthy discussions about what people think might happen or could happen. As history has shown by the long thread, such discussions are not productive and confuse people more than help them. Our members are looking for clarity and certainly, not "probably", not "maybe", not "a court would have to decide", not "your interpretation", not "legal theory" etc etc. Where that clarity is not achievable, the issue is placed on the list of unknowns, until such time as a clear answer is derived.

One problem is that the minimum wage varies around the country, it is the lowest in the southern provinces. Another problem is that increasing the minimum wage by 20% to 400 baht will have a profound effect on costs. Employers will have no choice but to increase their prices by a similar amount. Add to that scenario the impact of the digital wallet giveaway program and inflation will erode any benefit derived from increasing the minimum wage in the first place. https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Payroll/New-minimum-wage-effective-1-January-2024#:~:text=The wage increase became effective,%2C Pattani%2C and Yala Provinces.

Jim's point is worth repeating, you can't use Thai Gift Tax as a way of evading Thai tax liabilities, the Gift must be tax exempt income or income that is not liable to tax. Added to Para 48 in the document as follows: Note: Only funds that are exempt from Thai tax or funds on which Thai tax has already been paid, can be Gifted. It is not possible to Gift funds that are assessable income, in order to avoid Thai tax.

Tell us what parts you don't understand and perhaps we can help?