shochu

zorro,

You obvioulsy have a vested interest and it is people like you who can never offer good advice. I am not about to go through your posts to see what this interest is as i have better things to do. I answered your query with hesitation as your earlier post was a bit abrasive and now you have answered my perceptions about you. It is a shame when there are people with vested interests who ruin it for people trying to disseminate useful info. regarding a common interest.

My shanghai example is that it is an amazing city with the most potential and yes - I have thought about buying there as I really like the city and plan to spend more time there. I still like bangkok - however - I am realistic and grounded about things - and I know when things are over priced.

Example - an average 35s.m. condo in the central area now goes for about 3 mil. Do you have any idea how small that is and do you really think that is a good deal? Do you have any idea when you do the math how this does not equate when considering a healthy market must be accessible to the locals? No matter how much I like Bangkok - I am grounded in my assessments.

And no - a huge portion of the world does not want to buy in Bangkok - now - that is delirious speak. Lets get real, Bangkok is an interesting city and i like it here, but I also like many other cities and frequently travel to many other cities in the region and am also looking to buy in these cities that I go to often.

Going forward, I will probably be only looking at aquiring older places with a thai friend who happens to be an architect and fully agrees with my assessments.

backflip,

There is nothing wrong with that comment. I routinely travel around neighborhoods to see how things are not only condo wise, but economic wise. It gives one an understanding of the nature of a place. Considering a place can only be 49% owned by foreigners - if say a place were 80% - 90% empty - what does that tell us?

If you want other sources - Why not go to a thai site and see how many rentals there are, and how many people are trying to flip condos they have only paid deposits on!

Correct me if I am wrong - but does the girl not become a part of the male's family. Watch any thai drama and this is the case.

The sin sod should be about show and nothing more - fully returned.

Any relationship where money is an issue will become more problematic. It is a question of helping her parents or making yours better - which is more important - and hwere are your girlfriends priorities?

Time and again, I only ever see westerners marrying asian ladies ever asked to help out financially as if it were the norm - and continue to help them out. These relationships tend to be with someone who did not have the resources available to marry into a better non western family (read - same national). I am not making a personal judgement here on anyone - just stating what I see.

OP should clarify exactly what the money not retunred will be used for and this should clear everything up.

owner - but not completed yet.

Bisto - check out prakard - a thai web site that lists many of the projects but unfortunatley it is in thai - but is a good start and will lead to other sites with more descriptions.

Cheers to those that can gain something as I too am always trying to gather info myself - so thanks!

pkrv,

I agree with what you are saying. Shanghai was probably not a good example - but the point was that Bangkok is getting ahead of itself in pricing probably due to too many people trying to cash in. And when you factor in that Shanghai has much more to offer all around and will soon be the city in this part of the world then I think it is fairly-priced, with Bangkok over-priced.

I also agree that Irene offers good insight into the rental market and I believe it is a good viable market to those that are willing to put the time in as it is a lot of work.

Have not had the chance to check out the others.

And like you, I have bought here because I see a good future here and also like to spend my off days here. Part of it also is I am looking to put some extra cash somehwere - but I won't do it if it is not a good deal. When I am ready to wind my working days down a bit more I will probably buy something nicer - although I am always on the lookout for something that makes me go - Yaaaaa - But - at the same time although I am willing to pay for something that makes me happy - I really hate the idea of having paid a premium for absolutley no reason. I think I have a fairly good idea of what is a good price as I have been at this for some time now - although not as long in Bangkok. When I saw a place I liked for just over 6 mil. I seriously considered buying it - but - by nature I am very inquisitive and thus went around looking at many places and I sat down and did some calculations and came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it. I would rather buy more property here in N.E. Asia where I know I can get a better deal.

And although I agree with Irene that good convenient and close transport is of importance, I actually lean more towards nice neighborhoods with many good amenities and a good overall lifestyle.

I personally can not see a whole lot (maybe a few) of very wealthy people coming here for the lifestyle. Speculators - yes, wealthy people here holidaying - no.

Abrak,

I stated that building costs were rising and although I am not an expert on the Thai/Bangkok market, I can assure you that most developers would not enter a market if they could not realize large profits. What happens after that is in their moves and market forces. And prices have been rising each year taking into account material prices as I have now bought two similar places over 1-1/2 years and am paying a premium for a better location and rising material costs.

Having said that - there is too much of a price difference between two similar sized condos, a price difference of 100% - especially when both sites have been owned by each respective developer for a long time - so no high property costs, yet one costs double the other?

The more expensive project was the former home of the developer so it has been in his possesion for much, much longer. So he is realizing much larger profits. This should not exist considering both are about the same distance from Siam Center. I could understand if one of these sites were say on the other side of the river. The more expensive project is in a slightly better location - meaning closer to transport. I personally like the location of the other site as it is much more residentail and very quiet.

Look at the Soi Ari area and although it is a nice area, it is still far from the central area and the vast price differences in projects is not realistic. Is not conceivable that a project should cost 6 times more just because of better materials after we have given a premium for a decent location.

There was a study done recently at a premium shopping center. When they had some furniture on display at a decent cost - nobody bought it thinking it low quality. They tripled the price and it sold out.

The developers are playing into peoples' weaknesses for materialism and lifestyle image as evidenced with the ads - people wanting to stand out as living in an exclusive place.

Marketing is playing a much larger role in prices than material costs as the variances are much too large. That and greed - which generaly signals the game is late.

I was recently in Bangkok and spent a fair amount of time looking at new projects, particularly along Paholyothin and Rachada. I noticed that most of the cheaper units had pretty much sold out, but the more expensive units were still available. I'm talking about condos 2-6 mil. Most of the buyers are thai. I believe they are looking for places closer to work and most are younger professionals. As well, they are not selling as fast as they were say a couple of years ago.

I bought a new place this past trip for a few mil. which I believe was a good deal for the location and what I am getting, in particular the design. Everything comparable was at least a mil. more. Having said that, I tend to ask a lot of questions. Most of the units have a small percentage of foreign buyers - say 10-20%. Some thais are buying them in the hopes of renting them out as retirement income. The unfortunate thing about this is that I believe rental unit prices are coming down and will continue to come down in the foreseeable future.

What I don't understand about the Bangkok real estate market is there seems to be way too much price inflation based on marketing more than substance. I saw two 70 s.m. condos - one along Suk going for over 6 mil. the other along Rachada going for half. Similar except perhaps a bit better finish for the more expensive one. Generally there is more logic in the method of pricing in a real estate market and in a good one - it tends to be very competitive. Here, the prices are all over the place and it really pays to put some leg work in.

As well, many projects that have been finished for quite some time are mostly empty - meaning the lights never come on at night. This suggests there are many speculators. I know in some real estate markets, some speculators will buy hundreds of units. I suspect some of it may be occuring here - although I do not know to what extent. I can not see such a large market for units over 6 mil. here because quite frankly, although there are many wealthy thais here, the numbers are not enough to maintain the market when you consider the secondary market of existing condos and their subsequent price increases thoughout the CBD and the lack thereof of a vibrant resell market here. There just is not enough foreign buyers to make up the 49% of the units unless there are some big players in the market as I mentioned above and if that is the case then it is worse than I thought.

What I believe is happening is that many people thought they were getting a great deal into an early market, paticularly for investment purchases, not to live in and will eventually not see their intentions fulfilled. I know many people keep saying that the prices here are cheap compared to other places - but in reality - they are not - when you can get a much nicer condo in say Shanghai, or many secondary cities in the region and around the world. Yes Singapore is getting expensive - but they do not have much land, similar to Hong Kong - but Bangkok still has much land in and aorund the city. And to pay these kinds of prices when it will take over ten years of serious infrastructure work to be comparable to other similarly priced but developed markets - to me does not sound like a good investment when you consider that the condo you buy today will in ten years show its age, and although it may not have lost value on paper, may be hard to realize in actuality.

In any market when there is a building frenzy - what follows is a lack of standards and quality starts taking a nose dive as developers are tying to realize profits and everyone is very busy trying to get and finish as many projects as possible. Here today in Bangkok, many construction sites have foreign companies from the region (Singapore, Malaysia, etc.) and although they have better standards - it doesn't matter when the work is being done quickly and with local people not used to th new methods. And to make matters worse, the rising cost of materials.

I truly believe the low to middle market to serve the locals will continue to increase (even though it is beginning to become expensive for the locals) only because of the need and demand for newer replacement housing - but even this will have to slow down soon as too many new projects are coming on line compared to buyers able to afford them. The high end market is saturated and will have problems going forward - irregardless of what someone will come on here and say - because the numbers just do not add up.

The future of Bangkok is good I believe, and if you are looking to buy to live in then I would not worry. But I would worry if you think you are going to make money from this market. I think it is possible but it will take a lot of work to find bargains as the time is late in the game.

The other areas such as Phuket, Samui, I personally do not know much about - but at the same time from what I hear, I would not be buying there as I undertand it to be a speculative market as most holiday places tend to be.

Hua Hin is a nice seaside town with a beach - but put it this way - I never once went in the water when i was there and i went all up and down the beach - up to Cha-am and also down south to the next large beach. Having said that - the town is nice if you want to hang out and shop and do toursity things. I did check myself into the Holiday Inn between Cha-Am and Hua Hin because I wanted some beach time and it seemed to be the best area for a swim - where I went into the water - but I was the rare exception. Most of the tourists just hung out by the pool.

Koh Chang is a largish Island and there are more things to do and be very careful if you rent a motrobike and go north towards the ferries as many, many people dump their bikes going down the hill as it is slick - myself included. I had a room up on the hill just past the strip that is white beach with an amazing view and spent most of the time on the balcony - why - well because the water had some black oily sludge floating in it. Although I did go further south and found some decent beaches - but nothing better than Samet. The only beach i found that was exceptional was on Koh Kham which is a small island with only one resort place and nice little wooden shacks. I have thought about going back as I was only on a day outing that stopped there for a short time - i have been trying to justify going there when there is nothing else to do but enjoy the beautiful water and read a book. Only one restaurant. I personally need a bit more than that to bide my time.

Across the water is Koh Mak and when I inquired - I was told that they had major sand flies - perhaps someone who has been there can offer insight as to whether this is correct or not.

I have yet to try Koh Khud and will one day - and perhaps Koh Mak as well - if I hear good things about it. But I heard that both of these islands - most of the guests book into resorts before they come and usually do the 2/3 day things from Bangkok. A little far for me to go for a few days - problably why I like Samet as it is close.

I personally go to Samet only because of the convenience, and bang for bang probably the nicest beaches except for the one above in the immdediate 5 hour bus ride vicinity.

I just realized that I gave the wrong name of the Office and ferry service - instead of Samed Villa - it is Wongdeurn Villa.

Wong Duen beach on the southern end is generally better - but can get crowded - and there are all the boats and machines - but it is generally in the central area - either end of the beach is quieter - but is pleasant in that you have everything that you need on the beach and it is not as bad as the main beach further north. Particularly at night when there is a little something to do (more variety) but still not too circus like. The great thing about this beach is either beach north or south is relatively secluded and generally does not have many people - and very nice to chill on - choose either one if you want to chill. And the water/beach is the nicest you will find this close to Bangkok with accomodation. You can also walk to the main beach area and the little town too-but it is a hassle if you are carrying luggage.

You can catch a ferry directly to the beach which is much more convenient that going to the main port and then having to get a taxi. I believe Samed Villa has an Office and ferry service that is located at the eastern end of the town of Ban Phe - not far from the bus station - when facing the street with the bus station behind you - go left on the opposite side of the street. Make sure to take the bus from Ekkamai as it is convenient and there are no hassles. There are many places to stay and many price ranges - they start from about a 1000 and up.

I can not say for Singapore - but for most of the cities I have lived -there seems to be two prices - for locals and for expats.

Generally the expat prices are double or more the going rate for the locals. Look around on the ground - can always find better deals. Try to get a local person to help you.

When there is no overhead - then you can spend your money anyway you want.

Many people have this impression that the average japanese (and now koreans as well) is very well off - and to some degree they are but looks are deceiving. The average income is listed as something in the range of about 50k. Most of the young girls with LV bags and the young guys with nice watches are generally your average middle-class kid who has an average job but lives at home so they can spend all their money on a single big ticket item. It is not uncommon to save for a few months to buy such a purchase and everybody knows how th easians love their big ticket items(name brands).

My understanding is that many young thais will buy a car on payment for many years (20) and live at home until they get married. But recently many are foregoing the cars to buy the 2mil condos. And I presume as with any maturing economy - they save less and spend more on unnecessary things.

On a cost of living basis - when you factor in the typical cost of something - then LOS is quite expensive for the average thai. I have done the math and the typical meal 25-35 baht translates into a much larger % of their pay than it would for us back home back home. Think about how expensive the BTS is for the average thai - more expensive than taking transport in japan.

I can have a decent lunch for 5 bucks back home and it is about an hour of work in terms of minimum wage or a really small fraction of the average salary. But here in LOS, that same meal represents a much larger part of their income. Imagine paying the equivalent of say half or even a quarter of your days pay for a movie.

I could live on a thai wage if I had to - and i have during uni days - but I wouldn't want to simply for the fact that everytime I have come to LOS I have been able to live like i want without thinking about how much it is costing me - and it would be difficult to adjust now.

Percy - point duly noted.

I was replying to other posters who assume that not many salaries are high, or that it was not likely that there would be many high salaries.

Grads from the better schools start at 20,000baht in the professional fields (needing licensing) in the city. When I went around the uni's here checking out the programs i talked to a number of grads and asked them what they could hope to start at after garaduation.

A lot of seasoned employees that can make it into a large firm or an international chain and eventually a high position can expect to make very good salaries. Yes the basic salaries are low but those who have the ability can make much more than you can imagine. How else are young professinals ( 25 - 35) affording to buy the new condos in the 2mil range. Most of these guys would have to be making 20,000+. and if you look at the job ads in the Post, many are higher paying jobs asking for Thai nationals. These salaries are also going up to meet the costs of finding qualified thai staff and to keep them.

Flight attendants make very good money - even for thai air - but more for an international airline where many thais are employed.

Those national averages do not really offer a realistic picture of life in bangers. Unfortunately - the better paying jobs and the better incomes will never be available to the majority - but in bangers - there are many here who make much more than the national average - especially if we are speaking of middle-class thais living/working in bangkok. It is best to not include the low paying service jobs as they are generally done by migrants who do not live the typical city life and are generally from outside the city. It is best to assume the low paying jobs in regards to life outside the city in terms of trying to live on it because as Heng has said - most city folk in bangers probably have a large family network to rely on - so asking the question could you live on the natinal average is pointless.

As one poster already mentioned - do not underestimate the underground economy - catering to tourists and the other stuff off the books.

One example are the guys selling stuff on the tables/wheeled carts (the street venders) - although they have to pay a fee to be there - some of them make some serious coin - I can imagine some of the street venders in bangers doing quite well - particularly in the busier areas.

Also, there are a lot of small shops and the ones with high volume sales make good money.

When I am in bangers I always go to the same coffee shop and I see the same young professionals and students coming in dropping 100Baht +/- almost on a dialy basis. I can't imagine them doing this if they were struggling.

I spend quite a bit of time tooling around the city looking at property - and have seen everything in terms of size and cost - so I hope this helps.

I have been in the 6/7000 baht places and they tend to be clean and have security with card access - usually a large open space - generally bigger than an average hotel room at around 40s.m. They usually have balconies and a basic kitchen. I think these type of places are fine for what you are looking for and there seem to be many places like this in particular around the rachada area - not far from the bts. My understanding is many of these places come with basic furniture as well - meaning sofa, large bed, desk, wardrobe - the ususal stuff. The place I saw was had primarily thais residents.

I'm sure you can get a 5000 baht place - perhaps further out - say on nut or saphan kwai area where i believe there are also many such places for rent.

Unfortunately, one has to do some work - can't have everything for free. Sonic, you seem to be quite adept in the market - I'm sure with some time you should be able to figure it out - a hint - it is much easier than you think.

I don't know too many people who put all their money into gold - just that many wealthy people have some of their money in gold. If you actually read my post properly - you would have understood this.

Yes, I bought a 1.5 mil condo - and if you read my post - you would have read that it will be empty most of the time and only used in place of a hotel when I am there for a total of 2/3 months a year. You would have also read I travel a good portion of the year and as I spend the most time in Bangers when I am not at home - I have bought this small place. I am sure if I were to live there and it were my main residence - then I would buy something better. If you read more of my posts, you would have read that I live in one of the most expensive cities in the world where I own property. I am quite pragmatic and have no need to splash out on a nice condo - especially when I feel that the condo market is overpriced in bangers. I would like to see what kind of place you can buy where I live.

Naam, I love the way you like to go on about things and take shots at people - and go on and on about how you live the high life - yet you can't even afford to stay in a decent hotel and must stay in a flea bag motel - ummmm!!!

The work I do puts me into contact with many wealthy people - so I have some insight into their lives. Also a 300% gain in gold proper over 6/7 years is not too bad overall compared to stocks - which are in a sea of red as I write this now. Of course if you can pick the individual stock, as some have then you are laughing as well.

I love it when people make baseless assumptions when info. is available if one reads a bit more carefully!

VIc - i can't even respond to you because you are apparently in another world where any language is futile!

There is something about gold that I gather most here do not know about since it is never mentioned here or in the news or any literature I have come across - but known to those on the inside and also to those that have done their homework.

Also interesting that many of the wealthiest people I know have considerable sums of it in storage. Funny aint it, considering it is such an old relic. I guess it is better to spend millions on a painting since they never fade and are easy to maintain. Try going into any high end store in say Tokyo, or London, or any major city and ask to see the lovely cases of gold bars on sale to investors for hundreds of thousands that many well heeled customers buy. Gee, it couldn't be to protect themselves against something as silly as inflation. Why these people are worth a fortune - why would they want to do that - I mean they have so much money - what is a little inflation to them? Perhaps people who have money they don't need - just want to keep it!

Dear Naam, your comments always amuse me as the simplest words are generally the hardest to achieve and that is why most have heard such phrases many times before but can not for the life of them achieve it. Of course if just anyone could time things right, then it would be of benefit to none. And then how would everyone retire in the Caymen Islands on a compound with a full service staff and a 100 metre yacht.

You by the way from what you have let on regarding your investment choices - you have lost quite a bit of purchasing power in the past few years if we consider the real numbers and not the published numbers. I am sure your investment knowledge affords the luxuries of life such that you have large amounts of surplus funds to squander?

Smart investors buy gold at the bottom and sell some of the profits at the top while maintaining a growing portion of gold to preserve wealth.

One can also bring out stats to say such things as it took the stock market from 1930 to 1960 just to reach the same highs before that crash and the market has not progressed in value when inflation is considered since 1999, and much more of the same.

It really is about timing your play and always has been - and in this climate - since the 1980's when the market chose to create a debtor market - the writing has been on the wall long enough for anyone who wanted to see it. The pain has just begun and the solution is a long ways off - if you actually understand the full impact of what is happening. Perhaps it will be sideslammed with yet another new investment idea/package to deal with it yet again - we shall see. One would hope it is a little better than this ridiculous global warming/carbon trading thing they thought would stave things off a bit!

I agree kissing is not a viable method of passing it on. I guess i did not elaborate enough with the BJ example. When people have sex, quite often there is a lot of exchange of fluids from foreplay and it is quite common to get some vaginal fluids and semen on your hands and in your mouth and my example of frenching was to illustrate that the pressure from it could quite possibly promote HIV transfer, were one to have a wound supsectible to infection.

Considering this whole HIV/AIDS debate is not fully conclusive - I think being a little on the safer side is wise. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to do some serious frenching if they had a sore/cut in their mouth - considering we are talking about sex on a THAI forum and many participants here are entertaining pro's.

I'm surprised when people talk of pensions - because most of my friends and I pretty much assume they will no longer exist in the not too distant future - by the time we are supposed to benefit.

And up to their demise, they will be so debased and worthless through massive inflation in order maintain them that they will be much like what the Russian pensioners were getting.

Our forefathers did not factor in that people would live longer, the fluctuations in birth rates, and the fact that many governments used the money in the system while they were still listed as exisitng.

May be a good idea to keep working and building the nest egg if you want to play it safe, or consequently do the opposite and enjoy your life - in the end your choice.

Consider yourself lucky.

In Amsterdam - how many people have had their bags slashed as they are walking, or been stabbed by druggies trying to rob you of your personal belongings. Hpoefully they never get this far.

Vulnerable people get targeted and robbed. Perhaps a change is in order to look less vulnerable.

And for the sake of god - anyone that wears a pack - be it small or large - please remember you have something on your back - because almost everytime someone wearing a pack enters - be it a bus, plane, BTS, elevator - they always turn and swing the dam_n things into people!

I was the only one who got sick - probably because it was my first time to LOS and the region for that matter - new to my system. I never get sick now and i pretty much eat everywhere and anything.

Clarification: The indian guy I mentioned on the bus who had money taken - he mentioned this on the bus - but it happended at his hotel.

About 20 years ago, I came here for the first time, quite young and visiting a friend from back home whose father had remarried with a thai lady from a good family, although, she was quite a bit younger.

We never did anything out of the ordinary - meaning no naughty stuff - strictly touristy stuff for a month. I remember i came with about $4000 and spent it all, and even though I thought it was cheap at the time, depending on where you went, it was also quite expensive. Remember, no naughty stuff, and most of my accommodation was free except for a few hotels in chiang mai, and pattaya - maybe a total of 1 week paid accommodation and the rest free - we stayed at relatives of his step mom who had family everywhere. Even in Pattaya, we stayed at a resort club she was a member of so it was discounted and it was near the southern part of the beach where there was absolutley nothing except some shacks on the beach and this one resort that thais' were members of.

My friend who was fully western took me to Patpong for sightseeing and we got wisked upstairs to a club in the afternoon where we were promised no charge for the show and 30 baht per drink. We ordered two drinks and as we sat at the bar, we could see them washing - let me rephrase that - just dipping dirty mugs into a bucket of water and filling them with beer - so we did not touch our drinks. There were two other groups there - a married middleage couple and two aussie blokes. The girls were all over us and the blokes asking for drinks and rubbing up against us, and we were like no, whereas the ausssies where hands everywhere. When the show, which was interesting and also showed a guy and girl having sex on stage was over, the aussies asked for their bill and freaked. Apparently, everyone was being charged 600 baht for the show (i can;t remember if it was per person or not). When the aussies were screaming for the cops, the staff slid the steel entrance door shut and put a pad lock on it. My friend, who spoke fluent thai, said that his stepmother was good friends of one of the nai emperers of bangkok and we were asked to just pay for the beer and wisked out a back door. I believe the marreid couple paid for their padded bill. I have no idea what happened to the aussies, but my friend said calling the cops would only make it worse as they were a part of this and there would be more money to pay.

In pattaya, on the bus, an indian guy had $800 bucks taken from his suticase and he suspected the staff.

On my way back from chiang mai with my friend and a group of girls (all accountants at a department store) who were friends of his that he met through his stepmon, we stopped at a roadside place that can only be described as a really run down shack for lunch. When the food came the rice was full of small black bugs I was picking out of the rice, but the others were just eating. I subseqently got very sick upon my return to bangers and was out for a few days.

I took everyone to pizza hut (i think - I just remember it being a major pizza chain) and paid and it was no different than ordering back home but at the time, I think the bill was the equivalent of a months pay for a thai. My friend said it was a major treat for them as they very rarely ever went to a place like that. And these girls were from well to do families - although not rich.

I remember walking around a small shopping mall in bangers and how everyone was staring at me.

Went to Oriental Hotel for tea and I remember the staff almost lying down to take our orders as they were trying to get lower than us sitting in low cushioned sofa style chairs.

Driving across bangers took hours and traffic was so bad that is was a full day affair just to go across the city for lunch and back. Once our taxi driver got a flat and since he was such an old guy and he was having a hard time, I changed the tire for him and people around us were quite amused.

All in all a great experience for someone who was quite young, early twenties.

If I can make a comparison from then and today,

At the the time I said to my friend that I found the thai people catering to tourists to be not so nice - and only nice if you are doing business with them - and it has gotten much worse and more main stream . Although the general population is still for the most part nice, they have the same affliction that affects most countries as their GDP rises - a much more negative attitude much in line with many western countries - just a natural progression on the way to development - a shame as the attitudes of yore were really the extra ingredient in making LOS that much more attractive - still nice i think - but just that much less so.

The working ladies have changed very much. The girls seems much more mainstream these days - meaning a lot of average girls who would never have worked in the industry in the past are now working in the industry. They don;t really do it because they need the money, but just that they want more, faster, and easier (i guess from their perspective). Seems like a lot of college girls working part time or sometimes full time and just registered to get any degree. Easy come, easy go - buying nice clothes and new phones. I think it is much harder living here when you see the likes of Paragon everywhere and young kids with all kinds of new gadgets. Nobody wants to be left behind and this is making wanting to keep up with the Jones even more difficult and more competive.

LOS has changed a lot in the 20 or so years i have been coming here - for the most part better i think, but also more mainstream with all the associated benefits and problems. Bangers is truly an international city with a lot to do, and travelling around the city, or the country is now a breeze, but also the attitudes have become much more hard and indifferent and sometimes hostile, especially among those struggling with low paying jobs who see us with resentment.

Many countries have an automatic deportation order for non-nationals who are found to be HIV positive. Perhaps someone knows how this relates to LOS.

And I agree - it is very hard to get unless you are sharing some fluids (I believe it is not just blood) and those on the receiving end are much more at risk - women, gays. The anal area is very sensitive whereas the vaginal area is much more tough and thus less prone to tearing. The reason men can get it is because the pressure of sex is enough to drive the fluids into the male urinary tract. Wear a condom and you should be safe.

Having said that, the mouth and stomach (as mentioned by sgunn65) are pretty tough and can withstand a lot. There are many BJ places in Tokyo where the girls will swallow and I have never heard this to be a problem for the girls except for perhaps herpes. I doubt this would continue if it were a problem. So kissing is fine as long as there is no open wounds. The whole thing again with the open wounds is the pressure that gets created in the physical act of frenching can push fluids into the wound but again the conditions need to be right for infection.

ha ha,

abrak

you got me - and in my defense I love the stuff

but only enough to diversify...

If everything we read in terms of facts and figures were true then much of the stuff said above would be plausible - unfortunately there are too many unknowns due to manipulation, agendas, etc.

There are so many things happening behind the scenes that we will never know about - that in these discussions about what might or might not happen - can only be that - discussions.

Who knows who is behind what and what the reasons are.

Some things that we can probably surmise to be somewhat true are - there are many big players that can affect the markets; the world is awash in fiat and electronically instantaneous (what I will here call) money until it is used. The world is either being manipulated in a manner that is pre-determind OR it is so big and complicated that nobody can now control it even though they are trying. I believe it is a combination of both but the latter will prevail.

When we play a game of monopoly - we have a set of rules and a limited amount of paper money, land and property. We know the rules yet most of it ends up in the hands of one. What happens when we don't play by the rules - who then has the advantage - and is there any way to circumvent this - well maybe if your lucky you can catch a ride eh!

The world is much like this monopoly game in that the few are becoming increasingly wealthy, while the rest of us are becoming less able to put food on the table. We living an existence life where we work to live, not the other way around. I realise this is a very simplistic take on things - but I believe it explains the nature of things in a simple but succinct manner.

So getting back to the above - yes - if we knew the facts you guys are using were true and we had all the correct info. then much of the above could be plausible.

BUT, and I say BUT,

We do not have all the info and if anybody actually believes the numbers regarding, inflation, employment/unemployment, etc. well what more can I say.

Well to add to everything - I can say next year will be interesting when the first of the baby boomers starts receiving their bennies and health care starts taking a hit and....

Why only focus on the basics and leave other important data from the equation? AHHH yes the media hype. Please don't tell me their tactics are working. I just hope you guys are not representative of the majority otherwise we in shit man.

Anybody remember all the guys who lost their shirts in the last dotcom bust - now working into their retirements.

There is so much fiat looking for a home - hence the building boom - but everywhere I go in asia - I see new empty buildings and I can not imagine who will occupy all this new stuff. I myself am buying things I don' need just to diversify out of too much cash into things I think will have some value. Things I think will maintain some value in this race to the bottom.