Colin Yai

There seem to be some people who think enough time has passed to just forgive and forget Thaksin's past even to the point of expressing it philosophically, not likely. It would disgrace too many people, some who have lost loved ones. No amount of adequate time ever passes for that to be forgotten. It's a life mistake.

What amazes me is, in the shadow of his birthday, there's actually a debate taking place here about whether or not he's good or innocent when he was the PM who ordered a ruthless crackdown on the drug trade that resulted in over 2,000 deaths, and that's the tip of the iceberg. If someone were to walk up to anyone anywhere who doesn't know Thaksin and describe things he's done most ordinary people would say he sounds like a real piece of schidte. That's the truth.

I just wonder if those people who say enough time has elapsed, so loved ones who lost their lives in Thaksins WOD should forgive and forget , would say the same about the Simon Wiesenthal organisation, a Jewish group who were formed to hunt down Nazi's who perpetrated crimes against humanity in the death camps such as Bergen Belsen and Auschwitz?, many of of whom were brought to justice after more than 2 decades such as Adolf Eichmann.

Right, there is a very big difference between Hitler doing mass murder of five to six million Jews (and a stack of others) and Thaksin's deaths. In Hitler's case, the intention was to kill people in a particular ethnic/racial group(s). In Thaksin's case, the intention was to remove drug dealers who cause enormous problems in society.

Yes, bringing up comparisons between Hitler and Thaksin makes people look silly.

Can I just ask something ? Right, the reason why there are more anti-Thaksin people than pro-Thaksin people amongst us foreigners is, supposedly, because Thaksin was corrupt (they say he is a crook, he broke Thai law). But, I'm convinced there's something else. There's another reason why most of the people on Thai Visa don't like him. I mean, for those who don't like him because of his corrupt ways, well, there's stacks of other politicians who are corrupt. I do have vague memories of talking back in pre- 2006, of blokes drinking in bars, and having a pop at Thaksin, and it wasn't about Thaksin being a crook !!

I think there is some wires seriously crossed here ,in no way was I comparing Hitler to Thaksin , I would suggest you read my post AGAIN this time more slowly , I was merely stating I did not believe that punishment for crimes should have no time scale before the crime is somehow forgotten about and "forgiven" ,pure and simple.

There seem to be some people who think enough time has passed to just forgive and forget Thaksin's past even to the point of expressing it philosophically, not likely. It would disgrace too many people, some who have lost loved ones. No amount of adequate time ever passes for that to be forgotten. It's a life mistake.

What amazes me is, in the shadow of his birthday, there's actually a debate taking place here about whether or not he's good or innocent when he was the PM who ordered a ruthless crackdown on the drug trade that resulted in over 2,000 deaths, and that's the tip of the iceberg. If someone were to walk up to anyone anywhere who doesn't know Thaksin and describe things he's done most ordinary people would say he sounds like a real piece of schidte. That's the truth.

I just wonder if those people who say enough time has elapsed, so loved ones who lost their lives in Thaksins WOD should forgive and forget , would say the same about the Simon Wiesenthal organisation, a Jewish group who were formed to hunt down Nazi's who perpetrated crimes against humanity in the death camps such as Bergen Belsen and Auschwitz?, many of of whom were brought to justice after more than 2 decades such as Adolf Eichmann.

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I have no love for either PTP or the Dems. (that's just comparing sh*t with cr*p)

As a matter of principle it is wrong to allow a criminal to become involved in the formation of the government. For me the government needs to uphold the ideals and principles which it seeks it citizens to have [and respect for the rule of law must be one of those principles]. If (as you suggest) they take advice from criminals on the basis of it being 'good advice' and therefore acceptable you are leading your own people down a very rocky road by setting a very bad example.

Do you think it is a principled, ethical and moral thing to do to take advice from a criminal? If you do think it is acceptable, then at what stage does it become unacceptable? How far down that road must you travel?

For me it seems a no brainer - It's a Yes / No answer.

Any government which throws aside the basic cultural and social values is morally corrupt from the start. Is that the role model we seek for our children?

Edit - Thailand needs a fresh start, but this fingering by taskin is picking at the scab of the past.

At jonclark: Mr. Thaksin is an intelligent human being, who does have a record of progressive improvements to Thailand's economic and social welfare, regardless of whether you wish to focus on that. It seems clear that your contribution to what is a reality would rather take that reality and shove it backwards using a law that also provides the ruling powers to overturn as an eventuality. Add to that any distinct possibility of a pardon and you will be in a tight place and not able to comment against that.

The people have spoken. The PM gets to chose her cabinet. That is the letter of the law. As the newly elected PM, she also gets to use her powers to look into any suspected wrongdoing of the past, and overturn anything through the means of the letter of the law that you righteously quote. That is the beauty of it all, and yet it is also the bane of it all for those who don't like to play nice.

I understand your comments above, but they simply do not make any sense outside of your own personal views. The same goes for me. The current law that you refer to will eventually change. Will you accept that, or will you become a law breaker, or a protestor of the law, much like someone we all describe. And where will your credibility be then?

As I have observed just about every kind of sick and childish remark against Mr. Thaksin, it is my opinion that people need to face up to the facts of the times. As long as you live here, you are condoning the laws of the Kingdom; to abide by them them no matter how they turn, or to nobly depart from this land as a suggestion, and as a form of silent protest.

So I ask the inevitable certainty that haunts all the Thaksin hater's minds; will you in fact obey the laws and respect the laws and cease and desist in your character assassinations of Mr. Thaksin in the event he is vindicated using the very laws you gleefully and childishly ascribe against him at present? Hint: There is only one legally correct answer for anyone, including any who senselessly rage on about this man.

To the mods: I had to delete some quotes from this original post because I couldn't post without doing so. I selected jonclark's post, respectfully. If I did wrong, then I apologize and will delete this post haste.

And to your last question, if Thaksin was indeed innocent of his accused deeds (which of course he is not, he did sign the document, it was illegal of him to do so while in his position of PM, and by signing it, was correctly punished) then of course I obey the letter of the law. Explain to me how he was not wrong? My question to you is why should he be above the law? I don't understand your question, he broke the law, what is there to change? The law itself? I have a deep dislike of Thaksin, have done so for 11 odd years, that is based on my deep dislike of his behaviour and disregard of the law. So, I do find it rather ironic that you are using the law, which he regularly broke, to defend him.

Hmm, a deep dislike for Thaksin eh , it would appear you are pretty shrewd judge of character!!.

You may well be correct,but does it not strike you as rather odd that of the 2,500 or so deaths ,no one was ever wounded ,and no one was ever charged with a single death!

This is the thing isn't it? It hit a point where the questions just stopped getting asked b/c there weren't any answers. That's just never right, not only this once.

Let me put it this way DF if in the last 3 months 2,500 people had been gunned down and not one case had been solved , would you think that this was quite normal and the "clear up" rate of 0% was quite satisfactory,if the excuse given by the police that many lost their lives during "gang warfare" why was no one ever wounded? .

Oh boy, this thread's going to be fun! How the Thaksin haters will be seething!

(..and saying it will never happen, just like the election result. )

there will be at least 2500 families who were victims of this 'good guy' and his crackdown on dealers, who will not be celebrating! 1400 killed were innocent of any drug dealing.

Yeah aroya very true, unfortunately many only remember his 30 baht health scheme rather than focusing on he was the sole orchestrator of mass murder of many Innocent people.

the war on drugs was inexcusable but there are questions involving the numbers, as in the murder rate for that period included all murders in the country during that time

some people argue, and i'm not one of them because i don't know the facts, that a lot of the 1400 murders were non-drug related, non police related and that a lot of the overall murders were also inter gang murders

now i know the police did murder a lot of people during that time and i'm sure some of them were innocent

but i don't think that the police killed all 2500... that's just my opinion, not fact, if someone can prove me wrong or right with factual evidence i'd be much obliged

and i repeat, thaksins war on drugs had barbaric results

You may well be correct,but does it not strike you as rather odd that of the 2,500 or so deaths ,no one was ever wounded ,and no one was ever charged with a single death!

You've made your point; truths and facts that only stretch as far as a heretofore non-investigation into the questionable intentions by questionable people who judged him; furthermore, the same people who should be candidates for your own standards of judgment - and who you summarily exclude in your crusade.

You are accusing a Thai citizen of being a massive human rights abuser, when in fact he has no accusations being brought against him by any international court. Only complaints. You are not being very righteous yourself.

Regrettably I cannot hear you for the cacophony of noise from your fellow lynch men. I've abused people's rights myself. Grant me the power, and I am certain I would amplify my mistakes, just like any other leader throughout history, were I in that position. Why do you ignore the pebbles and shout at the mountains? God help you people if Thaksin ever gets a pardon in any capacity, and especially a particular one. I guess by guilt of admission, I have mentally pardoned this human being for doing something that dims in light of the good he has done. It's acceptable to engage me in battle, but not so in the other event. Your ignorance and stiff-necked attitude over the matter and towards me will be illustrated in the event of that case. You'll have to simmer and steam without being able to open your mouths one iota.That will be interesting to follow the threads at that time, should it occur.

Wow. Somebody seems to have drunk the koolaid. Like the entire pitcher. I think you should do some more research on this. And take the blinders off.

Well it's obvious what happened here. The Kool-Aid is just so delicious. Who can help themselves once they take a sip?

This is worth a look, quoted from Wikipedia:

The 'war on drugs'

See also: Policies of the Shinawatra administration#Anti-drug policiesThaksin initiated several highly controversial policies to counter a perceived boom in the Thai drug market, particularly in methamphetamine. After earlier policies like border blocking (most methamphetamine is produced in Myanmar), education, sports, and promoting peer pressure proved ineffective, Thaksin on 14 January 2003 launched a campaign to rid "every square inch of the country" of drugs in three months.^[81] It consisted of changing the punishment policy for drug addicts, setting provincial arrest and seizure targets including "blacklists", awarding government officials for achieving targets and threatening punishment for those who failed to make the quota, targeting dealers, and "ruthless" implementation.

In the first three months, Human Rights Watch reports that 2,275 people were killed.^[82] The government claimed that only around 50 of the deaths were at the hands of the police. Human rights critics say a large number were extrajudicially executed.^[83][84] The government went out of its way to publicize the campaign, through daily announcements of arrest, seizure, and death statistics.

Of course somebody on this thread might claim none of this implicates Thaksin, and that's true. None of this is a conviction. He was only convicted of the land deal involving his wife. As a matter of fact nobody was convicted of any of these deaths b/c evidence of guilt by any party was never found. So, it's obvious that we can all breath a sigh of relief because nobody did anything wrong, especially not the Thaksinator.

Quite true Thaksin was never found guilty of ordering the "extra judicial murders " of "suspected " drug dealers but then again the only thing they could "nail" Al Capone on was an income tax rap, what does that prove?

Oh boy, this thread's going to be fun! How the Thaksin haters will be seething!

(..and saying it will never happen, just like the election result. )

there will be at least 2500 families who were victims of this 'good guy' and his crackdown on dealers, who will not be celebrating! 1400 killed were innocent of any drug dealing.

Yeah aroya very true, unfortunately many only remember his 30 baht health scheme rather than focusing on he was the sole orchestrator of mass murder of many Innocent people.

What an awful situation to put the father in.

There is some speculation that the human race is going to become extinct, going the way of the dinosaurs and many other species.

My feeling is that it can't come quick enough.

Don't blame it on the human race cos these people are not fit to be called humans.

I propose the following individuals for key cabinet posts:

1) Minister of Interior: Thaksin Shinawatra

2) Minister of Foreign Affairs: Thaksin Shinawatra

3) Minister of Finance: Thaksin Shinawatra

4) Minister of Trade and Commerce: Thaksin Shinawatra

5) Minister of Justice: Thaksin Shinawatra

6) Minister of Education: Thaksin Shinawatra

7) Minister of Transport and Telecommunications: Thaksin Shinawatra

9) Minister of Defence: Thaksin Shinawatra

8) Prime Minister: Thaksin... er... Yingluck Shinawatra

Guess that would make things a lot easier for the country.

Ahh yes MW, many a true word is spoken in jest!.

The bigger the lie, the more some wish to believe it.

Propaganda is telling the BIG lie over and over again

until it eventually becomes truth for enough people

that it DOES become a reality. Reality based on a facade,

but that no longer matters to a percentage of voters.

In this case PTP ties fresh lies to the old Propaganda Legend of Thaksin, and people bought the new with the old.

Wishful thinking and no looking back at history as it REALLY was.

Ahh yes the "good old days", "the bigger the lie the more it is believed" Joseph Goebbels!.

Loathsome as he was, he did know his business.

As did Edward Bernays.

http://en.wikipedia..../Edward_Bernays

" In Propaganda (1928), Bernays argued that the manipulation of public opinion was a necessary part of democracy:

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind. "

Believe what you see, or see what you believe,

who induces you do to either or neither?

Your choice, or are you led there?

http://www.pressacti...ldacci05252008/

All politicians use this type of manipulation to one extent or another, but some take it to extremers because there is not moral compunctions not to shoot the moon.

The best way to sell a myth to the many

is to make the myth MYTHICAL in proportions.

Animatic, I did here a strong rumour that Thaksin's chief adviser was a Joseph Goebbels clone, could shed any light on it for me??

The bigger the lie, the more some wish to believe it.

Propaganda is telling the BIG lie over and over again

until it eventually becomes truth for enough people

that it DOES become a reality. Reality based on a facade,

but that no longer matters to a percentage of voters.

In this case PTP ties fresh lies to the old Propaganda Legend of Thaksin, and people bought the new with the old.

Wishful thinking and no looking back at history as it REALLY was.

Ahh yes the "good old days", "the bigger the lie the more it is believed" Joseph Goebbels!.

So I understand this and please correct me if I am wrong.... As long as Thaksin does not hold an official position he can ask his sister to do whatever he likes...

Just as long as she is the person that announces it...

All she has to say is that they discussed and she thought it was a good idea...

Yeah reading your thoughts Billy you ain't that silly!.

i always carry a pocket knife on me. carrying one isn't premeditation of anything except having a handy tool in your pocket.

But remembering you have a "handy tool" in your pocket when you leave your car to argue with someone, getting it out, opening it and then stabbing the victim multiple times isn't the action of a reasonable, level headed person.

Who said most Thai drivers are "level headed"!

Can he keep his car and his license? TiT

How do ya know he had a licence or that the car did not belong to the finance Company?

I see that my first reaction to the title was not unique -- but then given how obvious it is, why would it be unique:

If you didn't want Thaksin involved in all major decisions, why the hell did you vote for PTP?!

No matter how jaded I get, this place still manages to surprise me -- at least for a moment or two -- after all these years...

A + B + C often equals A- or C+

but rarely ever simply ABC,

or even more rarely ABC²

So someone took a poll, Thaksin won't care in the least,

he wants power, nothing else will do,

and being the hanging sword over cabinet members

is the best tasting power of all.

Indeed. You're not telling me anything I don't already know...

Animatic is just laying it out on the line in layman's lingo with no frills attached.

How about he does his full stint in prison like everyone else 'convicted' of a crime! How about being banned from politics forever no ifs or buts. This would set an example to the rich that they can't do what they please. Rich or poor - you are the same and will be treated the same.

Agree totally. The man is a convicted criminal, and very likely would have been found guilty of numerous other serious crimes if the judicial processes had continued. But any discussion / action today should / must be based on the current conviction.

He must be treated like any other convicted criminal. Special consideration for this man is totally wrong and totally unacceptable.

Anything else makes a mockery of the intent and the process of the law and creates highly undesireable precedents.

Sage words scorecard ,with which only the mentally unstable would disagree with.

Possibally something like 15 days home detention or an electronic tag so he does not go further than say 500 kms from his home.

Yeah I'm all in favour of an electronic tag ,about 10,000 volts should be ideal.

Yep now the offer from Thaksins buddies will likely come in

to buy enough shares to make them legal again.

Likely at firesale rates of course.

Powerplay in the works for sure.

So you nasty Norwegians,

here's an offer you can't refuse.

Makes me think back to Monson,

Thaksin partnered with him to install technology,

but it came time to take profits and

he had Monson thrown in jail...

What a nonsense.. Is there any post where you do not mention Thaksin? Wonder what this man has done to you.

It's raining.... blame Thaksin!

Anyway do you know the democrates (your friends) are still in power? And that under their government this whole DTAC thing is initiated?

Well reading Animatics posts for the last 2 weeks or so, IMHO the guy is a pretty shrewd judge of Character !

What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham.I must add this guy sounds a little crazy ( read a lot ) to suggest Mexico will be a rival to Thiland ref tourism, nobody dare go to Mexico because of the drug murders. I have Mexican relatives living in LA who are too afraid to cross the border to visit their own family. does this guy work for TOT //???????

Sorry but ur post is a crock. TUI is a package tour company that cosset their guests from the seedier side of Pattaya, they don't have planes full of sex tourists as the generally travel independently.

As for Mexico, Cancun is still a huge tourist destination regardless of the problems in the rest of the country.

Jeez, gotta love Thaivisa, old crones with no knowledge of the subject tapping away on their keyboards like the fountain of all knowledge. I heard a guy in a bar a few days ago tell another old crone 'you've got nothing to say, and you are saying too much of it'. Rather fitting don't you think....

I agree totally with your statement. I went to Cozumel last year to SCUBA dive with my brother who still lives in the states. Not one problem. Flew direct from Houston. And the plane was packed both ways. I am one of the old cronies, but I have lived in Pattaya for 24 years and except for the BIB which are everywhere I have had no problems. Loud Russians, of course. But the Brits, wow. Soccer hooligans delux. Loud cocky fighters with men or women. And they are everywhere you go. Not just Thailand.

I have to agree and I'm English, here we go, here we go, here we gowa ,is the normal"war cry" when full of liquid courage ,pure embarrassment for anyone within 100 yards of them!.

What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham

I totally agree with you, that's why I never went to Pattaya...

not that I don't like sex but, for what I heard about the place I'm rather sure that it's not the kind of tourist site that I would love to stay in.

Yeah I'll second that,I do not know who's leg they are trying to pull ,its not rocket science why the majority of male tourists go to Pattaya ,anyone thinking any different should seek medical help!.

I been here since 2003 and I hope you are right we called it the land of smiles back then and it was. Let the Thais have their say and all of us listen and keep our non voting mouth shut!

Effectively, you are telling everyone here to stop expressing an opinion, having in the sentence just prior, shared your own.

Hey "Rix" Nice one!, yeah I have seen this so many times before ,when a farang says ,"this is a Thai thing" and non of your business ,whilst making comments right left and centre himself about the Thai political scene himself ,do I smell a slight whiff of total hypocrisy here ??

Hey Colin Big. Your fourth post in five years and you mention me. I am honoured!

Yeah Rix ,keep your fingers crossed you may see more of me from here on in ,I always recognize talent aligned with a bit of dry wit thrown in .

I been here since 2003 and I hope you are right we called it the land of smiles back then and it was. Let the Thais have their say and all of us listen and keep our non voting mouth shut!

Effectively, you are telling everyone here to stop expressing an opinion, having in the sentence just prior, shared your own.

Hey "Rix" Nice one!, yeah I have seen this so many times before ,when a farang says ,"this is a Thai thing" and non of your business ,whilst making comments right left and centre himself about the Thai political scene himself ,do I smell a slight whiff of total hypocrisy here ??

Abhisit is absolutely correct to call this a whitewash. Those supporting the fugitive are engaging in the rehabilitation of his reputation. The fact is, that Thailand has been guilty of not bringing him to justice, out of fear. They should have had him extradited within months of the time the coward fled the country, and brought him to swift justice. He used a law that he passed for his own benefit, to avoid paying $400,000,000 (US dollars!), in taxes. He is a scoundrel. Why the people thing for a nanosecond that he gives a rat's ass about them, if beyond me. If he was so concerned about his country, think of what they could have done with that tax bill. Had he paid it, he might have still been in power. He is a criminal, and he wants to come back to rule Thailand again. Yingluck is as much of an empty shirt as Palin is. She is the Sarah Palin of Thailand. Though Abhisit has not done nearly as much as he could have, he is a competent leader. Yingluck would be laughed out of the room, if she were meeting with a group of foreign diplomats. Besides her brother, and a tiny bit of good looks, what else does she have to offer? Very, very little, I am afraid.

Yeah Mike a good solid post with which I find little or no disagreement with ,the problem here is I've just asked my wife who is pretty bright who Sarah Palin is,the look on her face told all, I do not think for a moment that to many Thailand is the only Country that really exists , and from what I hear this is drummed into them from a very early age.

I dont understand why anyone would be proud of winning the last four elections when they've achieved it through threats, vote buying, bribery, corruption, assisted bribery and false law suits - no matter how poular with the poor of Isan he may be, hes achieved it through bribery and corruption - "but the people love him" is not a defence for Thaksin, it wouldnt see a convicted criminal get into power in the west, although the exception of Italy and its leader Berlesconi springs to mind, but current events there should serve as a reminder.People bought up in western culture should know this. If the fugutive returns, bribery, corruption and scandal will return with him and the few rich in bangkok will be left paying for the bribes through their taxes, just like the last time - remember this mans crimes before you shout "bring him back".

I must say you have an acute sense of reality and I compliment you ,however this is Thailand and thoughts like yours are not really appreciated (or even believed) by the masses up here in Issan, the bottom line is of course you are quite right in everything you say ,the big problem is these people up in Issan here find it impossible to discern the truth from fantasy land.

Really bizarre in that the sister of a man that was happy to sponsor and burn down, destroy, loot, incite violence, can be so popular. There very well may be no other country on planet earth where something like this could happen. Truly amazing, but in the end the people will get the leadership they deserve.

500 Baht at GE time and the Piss poor buffalo's up here in Issan will rise for the "bait"