Galong

I warned them, in my first public speech in Thailand, in late 2003, not to allow Thailand to go Western. Too late, and they did not heed my advice (most of them were provincial English teachers who did not understand me). Their country, their fault, not ours.

Thank you Paul Revere for warning the Thais about us.

FYI, there are a LOT of good things about the West that this country could certain benefit from... such as human rights, an efficient and less corrupt police force, school that actually teach students, a judicial system that doesn't discriminate (usually ), etc.

....Sorry, but Thais don't fart sunshine and poop rainbows. They're just as responsible for the mass destruction of this land as anyone. Many will do whatever it takes to make money... but then again, many people from every nation think the same way.

I apologize for apologizing for the Thais. I warned them not to let their children become disrespectful of their elders, and not to let their children get pregnant before marriage (all my girls did), or smoke pot or become alcoholics, like most of my kids, or drop out of school (4 out of 6 only finished 9th grade).

I agree that Thailand has not assimilated the good Western values. I admit to having worn rose-colored glasses and not seeing the colors of the Thai farts and poop. That came later. I agree with Guesthouse that Thais mess up Thailand with no substantial help from the farang who migrate here. The bad influences of Western culture, however, have been imported by the Thais and become the very essence of modern Thainess.

No need to apologize, buddy. I was being a bit 'tongue in cheek' anyway. :D

One thing that I see now that I didn't see 15 years ago when I moved here is the quality of TV shows... or should I say a lack of quality. No show had handguns. Now, that's rampant on Thai TV. I'm sure that US TV had some influence on that.

I don't think we can blame alcoholism on foreigners coming here. Thais from all cities/villages seem to drink too much. It's not just touristy areas.

They've certainly got a legitimate gripe, but blocking traffic only inconveniences everyone. There should be a better way to protest than this.

I'm guessing that the middle man isn't losing nearly as much percentage-wise.

Duuude, relax, just put it in your car, man....

I warned them, in my first public speech in Thailand, in late 2003, not to allow Thailand to go Western. Too late, and they did not heed my advice (most of them were provincial English teachers who did not understand me). Their country, their fault, not ours.

Thank you Paul Revere for warning the Thais about us.

FYI, there are a LOT of good things about the West that this country could certain benefit from... such as human rights, an efficient and less corrupt police force, school that actually teach students, a judicial system that doesn't discriminate (usually ), etc.

I live in Phuket Town and in the past year there have been dozens upon dozens of boring shop houses built in areas that used to be vacant. These are almost entirely bought/rented by Thais.

And, every time I go out mountain biking in Phang Nga Province (and I go at least twice a week) I hear chainsaws, see illegal fires and see clear-cut land.

How much of the original jungle is in tact? Almost all of it was cleared to plant rubber tree and oil palms. How much of the mangrove is left? Much if it was cleared to build prawn farms. So, if you're talking about how Nature has suffered, you can honestly point right at the locals.

If you're talking about touristy areas, you can blame that on several groups, including the locals.

BTW, my landlord was attempting to burn a massive pile of trash right beside my house yesterday. Most of the trash was plastic! I went out with a bucket of water and put the fire out. I told him I'd call the cops on him if he started it back up again. he could have gotten some of the Burmese laborers who work for him to take the trash to the landfill, but that'd be a bit more work.

Sorry, but Thais don't fart sunshine and poop rainbows. They're just as responsible for the mass destruction of this land as anyone. Many will do whatever it takes to make money... but then again, many people from every nation think the same way.

Quite a while ago there used to be signs all over Phuket Town saying "Keep Wales Tidy". Then the Phuket Gazette made light of them and they were taken down.

In Patong there are street signs saying "Turn Left When Safety"... oh for Christ's sake, there are ten gazillion native English speakers in Patong every day, why not ask someone to proof read stuff?

So the fine is 400-1000 baht? Why a range? Do you need to negotiate with the police as to how much you are willing to pay? 400 for Thai, 1000 for farang?

No. One thousand baht for you and 400 baht for the rest of us.

good one sstumbo! :D

It is a legitimate question though.

I wonder what they mean or how they determine the fine. Maybe if you run a red light because you're too busy chatting about the price of rice to you mate it's 1,000 baht.

I'd like to see the cops carry a list of fines (in a few languages)... something like this:

Riding without a helmet - 500 baht

Talking on a mobile while driving - 500 Baht

Running a stop sign - 800 Baht

Running a red light - 1,000 Baht

Driving with an infant in your arms - execution or sterilization plus a 100,000 baht fine

Anyway, you get the point. Make an 'across the board' list of fines so it's not up to the individual cop to decide how much any given offender has to pay.

Well its not very nice saying I am a fan of a murderer. But like a good christian I can forgive easily, thats what my mum tauht me from an ealry age anyway.

As for the cow, it only had three legs already as one had been severd in an land mine accident. So it was not having a good life anyway.

I think a "good Christian" would have walked up to the cow and shot at its head at point-blank range. That would have been the kind thing to do, and I think I know the posters on this board well-enough to say that they would do the same. But to use it for grenade target practice... People never cease to amaze me.

I have to agree with Micksterbs, there is nothing 'Christian' about what you did. And, who the heII are you to decide that the cow was better off dead? I've got a three-legged dog who has a great life.

What you did was sick and how anyone could get anything resembling pleasure out of this is beyond me.

I'll bet Jesus talks to you, huh?

There is a major change taking place as I understand it and all work permits will be one year but fee will be in the 20k range.

That would work for me. I've had to pay that much in bribes to get my one-year visas in recent years. I would prefer to pay a bit more to fill the government's pockets instead of the individual who sees me as an ATM.

Thank you for posting this story and following it up with the end result Galong, this and Donna's experience show us how to do things correctly. In spite of some of the well intentioned advise given here there is often a gap between theory and reality. It is nice to get a good dose of the real.

I feel very satisfied with the way everything turned out. In the distant past I was once in trouble for something I didn't do and it was only due to some powerful connections that I got out of trouble. I really didn't like going that route. I would have preferred to seek justice through the proper channels.

I think (feel) that the judicial system is maturing here and that foreigners actually can rely on the police, Thai attorneys and the judicial system if it goes that far. I know there are still examples of abuse and discrimination... that's happening around the world, but the overall feeling is that things are looking up.

Thanks a lot for your note!

I think its just a question we all have about animal care because the potential victims can't talk about it. Sure there will be some people who assume they are a abused and of course the Thailand apologist reality distortion types who deny anything like that could happen in Thailand.

I think the good that could come out of this is if tourists/visitors gave preference to animal exhibits who are being monitored and certified by international animal welfare organizations. Lots of other Thai businesses get international credentials like ISO compliance and my CM massage school has US accreditation etc.

Bring in some auditors who know the tricks of animal abuse and how to detect it. Most of these organizations are funded by donations so it would cost nothing to the Thai business and when approved could be a nice selling point for visitors to feel better about spending money there.

Until an operation steps up and gets inspected by an objective third party then its reasonable to be suspicious about patronizing them because there is a lot of motive to abuse animals.

Very well said CobraNeckie! Absolutely spot-on!

Get some outside professionals to sneak in there and monitor the place. If they know that the professionals are coming, it would be a complete waste of time.

Then, go back and get some blood samples. THAT would prove once and for all that the tigers are drugged. The volunteers and others who said they've seen the drugs administered would be proven to be honest... the monks would be proven to be lying. And, if they're lying about something as important as this, wouldn't it warrant the complete search of the premises?

I'd be willing to bet my honor as an animal lover that this place would not pass a test by an outside animal welfare firm.

Sorry, I see absolutely no reason to trust this place.

So how do you know that its a fact.

The internet ??

Television ??

Get real.

Go and look for yourself, I'll even buy you the ticket so as your "not supporting the lying monks".

Internet - Television... Um, we're debating on the internet aren't we? Tell me that you don't base some of your beliefs on TV shows or the internet. If you tell me that you don't, I'll simply stop chatting with you because I'd think you were either lying or just dumb... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

No, that is sufficient for me. I am real, I've been here long enough to tell fluff from reality. You're not 'real' because you're falling for this scam. That is, if you actually care about the tigers... or is it the fact that you 'like' this place justification enough for you to not do further research?

I didn't just decide after reading one article that this place was a fake. I studied and read all I could about it. There has been ample info online and there's a YouTube video or two showing tigers being struck... from behind of course. That video seems to have been taken off of YouTube... I wonder why. The monk did nothing to prevent the tiger from being struck. His look was that of indifference.

OK, I'll waste my precious time sending you some info.

here

Here

Here

Evidence/theories that will prevent me from even considering visiting this zoo:

1. Tigers shouldn't be chained

2. I don't trust anyone when a large amount of money involved, especially if that person claims to be spiritual. Monks are just as human as other Thais and the chance to make a massive amount of money 'could' override their ethical pledges.

3. A tiger in the wild would rip your head off if you petted it while it was trying to get some sleep. Don't you see something strange about tigers (one of the most ferocious animals on the planet) allowing tourist after tourist pester them, hug them, pull on them, etc? Doesn't this make you think something's up?

4. Many witnesses have seen the tigers being drugged. No "I" didn't see it, but other have and there are enough to give it some credibility.

5. The 'temple' has done nothing to help the tigers, but they've made an enormous amount of money from this business. No tigers have been returned to the wild.

6. No tiger gets to have the amount of territory that tigers need to remain healthy in mind and body.

The people who state emphatically that these tigers are not drugged are not experts, they are likely very gullible... probably thinking that these guys are monks so they have kind hearts. That's what hundreds of alter boys thought.

There is enough evidence to support my position and I put the welfare of the tigers ahead of temple profits.

Try going there and not paying for anything. Better yet, get a bunch of your buddies to go there together and not pay. You might get one of the sober tigers from the back room to put you back in your place.

Thailand has one of the worst energy efficiency in the world (see here and there)

Thanks for the interesting links cclub75... scary and enlightening.

The Energy Minister said, “and now effort has to be spent in the production of palm oil.” What that means in reality is the the little big of jungle left in Thailand will be clear-cut, probably by slash and burn, to grow more oil palms. The country is already down to a very small amount of jungle. Every day mountain tops are cleared, which is illegal, to plant more rubber tree and oil palms. This is NOT good news and it is NOT the way for Thailand to deal with this issue.

Thai’s waste oil like it’s free… even the ones who can’t afford it. The future for Thailand looks very bleak, especially with myopic energy ministers at the helm.

Thaksinomics can be blamed for some of this, but at the end of the day it's the mindset that we'll deal with that when it happens instead of addressing it right now that will be the final nail in the coffin.

It's not too late, but Palm Oil is not the answer from what little I know about biodiesel. Non-food crops might be the answer.

Well, for some silly reason I couldn't edit (add) further info to this previous post.

Here's what I wanted to add in BOLD...

Have you visited? Why not tell of your own experiences?

Or are just someone who loves animals, who HEARD the stories?

Of course I haven't been there! I wouldn't dream of supporting such a thing!

Do I really need to go to one of the famous places in Cambodia known for having children available for sex to have an opinion on how atrocious that is?

Should I have gone to one of Michael Vick's dog fights to be vehemently opposed to such a thing or can I have an opinion based on what I saw on TV and the internet?

Do I need to go to a sweat-shop in China to have a negative opinion on Wallmart shoes?

I think you get my drift here. I hope you were asking an honest question and not suggesting that I can't state opinions/facts based on what I've read and what I know about animals behavior and needs.

I base everything I've said about the tiger temple based on common sense and on knowing animal behavior - for example, I say that they're drugged because if they weren't it would just be a matter of time before someone was ripped to pieces. And, if they're drugged the monks are lying about it. They claim that they are NOT drugged. If proven to be lying about that, wouldn't one questions the other statements and motives of the monks? Reading postings online from this forum, Thorntree, YouTube and elsewhere from people who have volunteered at the place and SEEN the tigers getting drugs is all the proof I need as again, if they're not drugged these wild animals would eventually kill or maim someone. To me, this seems very much common sense and believing that they aren't drugged takes a lot of faith... which I don't have.

My strong reaction to animal abuse come from both a strong love for animals (and people) and the knowledge of what animals need to live a normal happy life. For example, elephants "In the wild, elephants roam as much as 30 miles a day, snacking on lush foliage, bathing in water holes and interacting socially with other elephants in groups of up to 20." (quoted from here). Another quote from this article says, ""But the reform movement, say critics, didn't go far enough, and those natural-looking habitats are just an illusion created to enhance the visitors' experience. "From the animals' point of view," says Hancocks, "they are not better than they were when they were in cages. It's all done for theatrics." "

How many elephant camps allow their captives to roam any distance at all? From my personal experiences over the past 15+ years, I've never seen any of them allowed to venture more than a few meters. This is not the case in all elephant camps I'm sure, but the one I've visited (except the one in Chiang Mai) all have the elephants chained to posts or trees. What I have seen is animals being beaten and abused... I wish I hadn't seen the things I've seen.

The Tiger Park and Restaurant has a captive wild Clouded Leopard (listed as Vulnerable, meaning at high risk of becoming extinct in the wild in the medium-term future). Thailand signed the CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) treaty. Clouded Leopards are listed at Appendix I, which means a species that cannot be traded commercially.

How do you think this formerly free animal (Leopard) feels about being gawked at by tourists? Do you care? Catching a wild animal automatically makes me suspect that this place is interested in the business side of captive animals and not at all with the welfare of the animals. Furthermore, I'll bet it's illegal to catch (not just trade) a Clouded Leopard... though I also seriously doubt that the authorities care.

To those who think that tigers are better off in captivity than in the jungle, I questions that line of thinking. Many places that have captive animals are breeding animals so that they can have more tigers for tourists to view/pet/get photos taken with.

Does the Tiger Temple place on releasing any of the tigers back into the wild? Does the Tiger Park have any plans to release tigers? Do any of the elephant camps release elephants back into the wild or do they simply add them to their 'fleet'? You might come back and say that they are better off alive in captivity than released a possibly killed by poachers. But, there is no guarantee that the poachers would kill the animal and the problem is not that they would be killed by poachers, the problem is the total lack of law enforcement when it comes to protecting wild animals. I was instrumental in getting a guy put in jail for twenty years for killing a Gaur in Klong Saeng Wildlife Sanctuary. I was warned that this is dangerous, but I believe more in doing the right thing than caring for my personal safety. I have turned in several people and I just got a very nice 'thank you' letter from the governor of Phang Nga Province for my efforts.

Lastly, IF, and this is important, there is not enough wild land to release tigers and elephants, then what is the point of raising them in captivity for a live of abuse and mental suffering?

My views are based on compassion and sympathy.

Have you visited? Why not tell of your own experiences?

Or are just someone who loves animals, who HEARD the stories?

Of course I haven't been there! I wouldn't dream of supporting such a thing!

Do I really need to go to one of the famous places in Cambodia known for having children available for sex to have an opinion on how atrocious that is?

Should I have gone to one of Michael Vick's dog fights to be vehemently opposed to such a thing or can I have an opinion based on what I saw on TV and the internet?

Do I need to go to a sweat-shop in China to have a negative opinion on Wallmart shoes?

I think you get my drift here. I hope you were asking an honest question and not suggesting that I can't state opinions/facts based on what I've read and what I know about animals behavior and needs.

I base everything I've said abut the tiger temple based on common sense and on knowing animal behavior - for example, I say that they're drugged because if they weren't it would just be a matter of time before someone was ripped to pieces. And, if they're drugged the monks are lying about it. They claim that they are NOT drugged. If proven to be lying about that, wouldn't one questions the other statements and motives of the monks? Reading postings online from this forum, Thorntree, YouTube and elsewhere from people who have volunteered at the place and SEEN the tigers getting drugs is all the proof I need as again, if they're not drugged these wild animals would eventually kill or maim someone. To me, this seems very much common sense and believing that they aren't drugged takes a lot of faith... which I don't have.

My strong reaction to animal abuse come from both a strong love for animals (and people) and the knowledge of what animals need to live a normal happy life. For example, elephants "In the wild, elephants roam as much as 30 miles a day, snacking on lush foliage, bathing in water holes and interacting socially with other elephants in groups of up to 20." (quoted from here). Another quote from this article says, ""But the reform movement, say critics, didn't go far enough, and those natural-looking habitats are just an illusion created to enhance the visitors' experience. "From the animals' point of view," says Hancocks, "they are not better than they were when they were in cages. It's all done for theatrics." "

How many elephant camps allow their captives to roam any distance at all? From my personal experiences over the past 15+ years, I've never seen any of them allowed to venture more than a few meters. This is not the case in all elephant camps I'm sure, but the one I've visited (except the one in Chiang Mai) all have the elephants chained to posts or trees. What I have seen is animals being beaten and abused... I wish I hadn't seen the things I've seen.

The Tiger Park and Restaurant has a captive wild Leopard Cat. How do you think this formerly free animal feels about being gawked at by tourists? Catching a wild animal automatically makes me suspect that this place is interested in the business side of captive animals and not at all with the welfare of the animals.

To those who think that tigers are better off in captivity than in the jungle, I questions that line of thinking. Many places that have captive animals are breeding animals so that they can have more for tourists to view. Does the Tiger Temple place on releasing any of the tigers back into the wild? Does the Tiger Park have any plans to release tigers? Do any of the elephant camps release elephants back into the wild or do they simply add them to their 'fleet'? You might come back and say that they are better off alive in captivity than released a possibly killed by poachers. But, there is no guarantee that the poachers would kill the animal and the problem is not that they would be killed by poachers, the problem is the total lack of law enforcement when it comes to protecting wild animals. IF, and this is important, there is not enough wild land to release tigers and elephants, then what is the point of raising them in captivity for a live of abuse and mental suffering?

My views are based on compassion and sympathy.

i think thats the right way to go about it Galong. well done. good riddance to her i say!

Thanks Donna...

Your recent case and mine show that being a foreigner doesn't necessarily mean that you're not going to get a fair shot at justice. Yours unfortunately had to go all the way to court whereas mine was done by a Thai lawyer who didn't speak a word of English (thus testing my Thai), but he saw that what happened was unfair and fought for me. And, as it didn't take as much time nor effort as he thought it might, he gave me a 10,000 Baht discount!! How cool is that!

My faith in the judicial system in Thailand is at an all-time high.

I just sent out a bunch of emails with the following:

"Please be advised that (former employee) no longer works with (our company). I won't go into details, but her employment was terminated on Saturday the 26th of April. She no longer represents (our company) or our interests."

That's all I said and if inquiries come back asking for more details I'll ask them to contact me by phone so there's no written proof of what I said. I seriously doubt anyone would want more info other than perhaps some good friends who wouldn't tell her anything anyway.

Thanks again for all of the very help advice!

Thanks guys, I'm thinking that the best approach is to do as much of this as possible over the phone... no paper trail to come back and bite me in the booty.

Be careful - to be honest you got what you wanted, so I would leave it at that. I wouldnt push things too much because you back some one into a corner and they will eventually retaliate and wont do you any good if you are dead. She might go to jail, but you will be dead so I wouldnt say you would be a winner mate.

10/4 Maveric... that's what I'm thinking too. I might do an ad in the Phuket Gazette if my attorney thinks it's a good idea or I might just contact the handful of agents that we deal with an gently let them know that she's no longer in the company.

everytime you wash your sheets you kill an untold number of insects....

Very true. My philosophy is to do what I can, when I can and wherever I can to avoid killing things.

If you read about plants you start to think that killing them is not exactly the best thing to do either. They sure do have some goal-driven behavior which could make one think that there is a level of consciousness there too.

About ants: I spend a lot of time in the jungle and I always walk around or hop over lines of ants. I ask my clients to do the same and without exception, they do as requested.

Live and let live

My next advise is not really needed, but something I would ponder doing.

Buy a small 4'x4' advertisement in the newspaper with her photo stating that she is "no longer connected" with your company, etc. and any transaction involving her would not be honored. To avoid lawsuit, don't 'accuse' her of anything in the ad, but the tone and font used should shout "BEWARE". Complete loss of face even to the public.

You're actually being virtuous by doing this because you're forewarning other employers to prevent them from being scammed by her, and you're also preventing customers from being scammed as well.

Yep, I'm already planning on asking my lawyer if I can do this. I don't plan on making it look like she's a thief... as much as I'd like to... just letting everyone know she's no longer employed by my company.

I wasn't thinking of putting a photo of her in the ad. That might be pushing a bit hard as she does have connections.

Thanks again!

Hmmmm Just walk out to her work space and chew her out as loudly as you can, she will not suffer the loss of face and will leave and never return. It works at my Gfs factory every time.

This would be the cheapest way out.

Tried that before. She said, "sure, give me six months severance pay and I'll leave."

I think that the way it turned out was the cheapest. My accountant recommended a lawyer and he originally asked for 25,000 Baht to deal with her and with a licensing issue I've got with a bus I bought. The day after I agreed to that, the yellow plates arrived for my bus. So, he didn't ask for any money for that. I gave him 10,000 Baht when we first met and he said just give him 5,000 Baht for the employee drama and that's it. In other words, he treated me very fairly and I'm getting money out of 'her', so I'm satisfied.

My only concern is retaliation. My lawyer said not to worry about that. The police told her that if anything happens to me, she's going to be picked up and taken down town.

Thanks for your advice though.

Then at least bargain for a (hand) written "apology" (read: confession) from her admitting that she embezzled, which you can pull out in the future if needed.

Hmm, I think it's a bit too late for that. Her termination paper states the reason and she lost a good bit of face at the police station. The police and various folks in the police station all heard what went down... so to speak. We had a witness sign off the termination paper too and she heard the whole conversation.

Thanks for your helpful suggestions buddy. I kinda wished I'd put some of my plans on this forum so I could get some advice... like yours.

Hi Gonsalviz,

I've lived in Phuket for more than 15 years and I'm getting really tired of the traffic, noise, etc. I'm looking at moving to the edge of Phang Nga Town. I'd still be within a bit over an hour from Phuket, Krabi and Khao Sok (my favorite park). 401 is a lovely road. I ride my mountain bike on part of this route. The countryside is lovely and the villages that I've passed through are full of very friendly locals.

I'm also looking at the area just across the Sarasin Bridge (the bridge to Phuket). This way I'll be within easy striking distance to Phuket. This area is also lovely, though a bit flatter. And, I've been doing a lot of bike riding there over the past few months and the locals are extremely friendly and helpful.

PM me if you'd like.

Good luck!

If you don't let her see jail time at all, that sends a message to your remaining employees that they can steal from you but will never go to jail and at most, will simply have to 'pay back' money. They'll be willing to take that risk in the future because the reward to risk ratio is not bad; and you'll be considered a WEAK enforcer of honesty.

Thanks for this junkofdavid2. I wanted her to see jail time, but my lawyer advised against it.

The police also said that if anything 'odd' or violent happens to me, she's the prime suspect.

I value your opinion, but I think the rest of my crew will take a look at this and realize that there could be consequences. She did lose her high-paying job, she had to pay me a stack of money and it's not settled as my accountant still has to go through the past three years' of accounting. I'm sure she'll find something. And finally, if the rev dept come at us, her head is on the block again. This is all in a couple of contracts that my lawyer wrote up.

I'm happy with the way it went, though like you, I too would have preferred a bit of time in small cell.

Today justice was served...

I just got back from spending a couple hours at the police station.

My office manager had to pay back 55,000 Baht for starters. Next, my accountant will go back over the past three years' worth of accounting and see if she owes us more. Plus, if the revenue department audits us for anything that she did, she is responsible for the tax AND the penalty.

I did have a good poke at her though... when this 'deal' was first put forth I said, "nope, not enough, I want her to be put in jail!" My accountant was there and she said, "she's got a family"... to which I replied, "so do I and I can't see mine this year because my over-paid staff stole money from me. Her family can come see her in jail." I had to wind her up a bit for all the suffering she's caused me and my wife.

At the end of the day, I'm just glad to be rid of her evil A55 and I've learned a lesson about trust vs control. As much as I dislike accounting, it looks like I'm going to be stuck checking every little thing that goes on in the company.

Let's just say that once everyone else in the company hears about how this went down, I seriously doubt anyone would consider 'tipping' themselves even an extra 10 baht.

Now I'm going after a former guide who borrowed 8,000 Baht from us and then suddenly up and quit. He won't answer his phone, but I know where he lives and we've got a contract stating that he'd pay the money back 1000 Baht per month at a time... no interest. This contract is all my lawyer needs to go after him.

Lessons learned... stop being a nice boss and start being a serious boss who isn't going to let anyone get away with anything.

I reckon I'll finally get a good night's sleep.... it's been a while.