Galong

Apologies for veering slightly off topic.

What if the situation were reversed? Let's say an employee wishes to terminate her contract with an employer. Her contract requires her to pay the company a sum that is 10 times her monthly salary if she chooses to quit her job before one year of work with the company.

Would the company really go after the employee for quiting without paying the fine? How? What are the possibilities/repercussions?

Hey Macx,

Funny you should say this. I also had a guide quit a while ago. I was shocked as I treated him like gold and praised him constantly for doing good work. He said he wanted to quit to go back to school, so I thought that was quite reasonable. However, shortly before he quit, he 'borrowed' 8,000 baht from my company. It's been a few months and he hasn't paid back one baht! God I hate getting screwed especially when I consider myself to be a very easy-going boss. I do have a contract for this loan, so I'm thinking about seeing the cops about it. Fat chance they'll do anything, but that might change if I offer them half of what is owed. I've lived here long enough to figure that one out!

Any of you other guys have problems with employees like I'm having? I pay very high wages, I'm very easy-going and I don't yell or raise my voice when they screw up... I'm baffled. I would love to work for me

Hi guys,

Thanks for all of the input. It seems that all of your thoughts kind of jive with mine. A. I'm worried that she could do more harm. B. if I let her go she's going to go straight to the labor board and seek 150,000 baht severance pay (and probably get it) C. I should talk to an attorney.

She was never my girlfriend. She can be amazing at work, helpful, fun, professional, etc. She supposedly went to highschool in NZ (I've never seen her diploma though) and her English is pretty good, BUT she makes gross errors like not knowing the difference between 'is' and 'are' and this make us look unprofessional. I run high-end tours and I know if I was a potential client and I got an email from someone at a company who didn't spell works correctly or used the wrong verb tense I'd think twice about going with them. The problem is that she's been doing this since day 1 and in spite of me constantly correcting her, it's not getting any better.

I have been keeping records of all of this. I also have an email from her (I don't think emails are legally binding though) where she says it would be easy to steal money from me.

I don't know what to do. On the one hand she is valuable, but on the other, I no longer trust her and think she would try to hurt the company if I sacked her...

"Bht25K a month - whatever where you thinking?"

I was thinking that I would treat her with respect and dignity and pay her what I'd pay what I'd pay a Westerner for doing the same job... silly me.

Just another motoring law that will be never enforced outside of the odd crackdown.

Exactly. I don't believe for one second that this law will be enforced on Phuket. they don't even enforce stopping for red lights. I can go out today and see probably a dozen or more times people just ignoring traffic lights.

I wish I was wrong, but alas, I'm not.

One of my Thai employees is acting up something aweful and it all started happening when she demanded a raise and I didn't give it to her.

Now she's sending me smart-aleck remarks in emails and on Messenger and her performance has dropped off dramatically. She's making mistakes, whether on purpose or not I don't know, and it's starting to affect my business.

She doesn't have an employment contract, but has been with me for five years. I'm thinking about hiring someone to replace her, but not right away. Eventually I'd like to phase her out, but I'd like to cut her salary if possible. I pay her 25,000 Baht per month and she just has to answer emails and do some book-keeping. It's a cush job with loads of perks. Everyone I know who knows what she does says I'm paying her waaaaay too much.

Can I cut an employee's salary for poor performance? Do I have to supply proof to the labor dept and if so, what is acceptable proof? Emails? Messenger chat conversations that I've copied?

Thanks

Thai guides 'ignored official warning not to go into the caves'

how "official" is "official"

is there a chain of command involved with "officials " having some control or authority over guides and tourists going into the caves and can they prohibit a guide from taking a party in after the guide has been advised not to ?

do the "officials" count them in and count them out on these caving trips.

if not , then they dont sound very "official " to me. did they just shrug their shoulders and say "mai pen rai, its up to you" and get on with their afternoon nap.

if they advised that the cave was dangerous that day , then why didnt they take action and close it off.

if the instructions / advice of an "official" were disobeyed , the why didnt the "official" take some action.

this statement / claim from the TAT , which in effect places the blame on the dead guides , conveniently absolves the TAT/national park authority from any responsibility regarding this tragedy.

what actually is the job remit of these "officials" other than collecting money at the gate.

p.s.

the survivor has said she was not aware of any warning of danger having been given.

Park rangers are often guides as well. I suspect that these rangers were no more than some of the guys who work at the floating bungalows... mostly young guys who wield no authority and who make so little money that they surely don't take their job seriously.

Blaming it entirely on the dead guides is exactly what I was expecting to happen. I also don't expect anything positive to come out of this whole ordeal, meaning, there will be no mandatory licensing specifically dealing with caving, trekking, etc. There will be no one to check to make sure that any guide heading to the cave has proper safety equipment. Things will be back to normal in no time.

That is, unless the foreign media and governments can somehow keep this tragedy in the limelight longer and thus causing even more loss of face for Thailand. Even then, I would expect xenophobia to kick in and make the Thai gov mad rather than ashamed of their poor safety practices.

I hate to think this way, honestly I do. I would much rather see this as a lesson, triggering the government to go full steam ahead and get their guides up to speed.

Met a couple of Dutchmen last week on Koh Chang Ranong they had just come from that cave. They had walked to the entrance and found the water too high to go in, a bit of luck for them I think

Whew, good for them... they certainly made the right decision as the area that is difficult is much, much narrower than the entrance. If the water is high at the entrance, it's very high at the difficult part.

there were occasions where i would tell people in my group that they could NOT go int the cave because i did not feel they were up to it. on the opposite end of the scale, i have heard people advise people like "tra la la la la....we are off to the cave now" and off they go, trekking through the jungle with the guests having no expectation of how difficult it really is.

to say that this cave is a walk in the park is totally inaccurate. i am sure that galong will agree with me here.

To think that any cave is a cakewalk is to not fully realize the potential for injury. The footing is difficult and as you walk in water a lot of time it is easy to twist your ankle. Not paying attention to the rock at head level makes it possible to cut your head. This might sound a little silly, but believe me, when you're in this cave trying to pay attention to your footing it's very easy to walk right into a head-high rock.

The drop-off that Donna is talking about is NOT easy even at low water. Her decision to not allow certain people on the tour whom she 'feels' aren't capable proves her professionalism. Yes, the guest would miss a wonderful adventure, but the most important thing for a guide to do is protect the clients... even if the client gets pissed off at you for not allowing them to have the experience, this is a judgment call that should be respected and appreciated.

On a different note: closing the park is a knee-jerk reaction and the irresponsible actions of two guides does not in any way make the park, nor this cave walk dangerous. Yes, there are potentially dangerous aspect, but with proper equipment and training, this cave can be a wonderful experience. I don't know that I want to go in it for a while. It would be too heart-wrenching to enjoy.

I hope that Ms. Carroll can survive the mental stress she must be going through. I can't even imagine what must be going on in her head.

From the UK Times Online [ http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle2658344.ece ]

This is scary to put it mildly...

Fatal attraction

— Thailand is the most deadly destination for British holidaymakers, according to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office

— It said that the figures, for April 2005 to March 2006 and released in British Behaviour Abroad, showed that “although Brits are getting more adventurous with their travels, they are not doing enough preparation before they go”

— Spain, which attracts 14 million Britons a year, tops almost every category for holidaymakers in peril. But when the figures are adjusted to show the proportion of visitors affected, Thailand is the most dangerous

— The 381,000 Britons who travelled to Thailand between 2005 and 2006 were nearly five times more likely to die than those visiting the second deadliest destination — India. Some 224 Britons died in Thailand

— British visitors to the country were also 50 per cent more likely to be taken to hospital in Thailand than in second-placed Greece. The latest figures show that 233 were taken to hospital

— Almost 900 Britons required serious assistance from a consulate in Thailand. That figure equates to 24 for every 10,000 visitors, double the rate for Australia

— Travel agents say that the problems are a result of cheap flights and under-prepared travellers

The fact that the tragedy occured despite warnings of flash floods at such tourist sites nationwide has led Thai authorities to consider closing all national parks in order to preclude the possibility of flash flood accidents in the future.

Referring to the permanent closure of the national parks (in the rainy season), he said the issue will be discussed by the authorities concerned as the permanent closure can affect tour operators and tourism-related businesses.

Personally, I feel that closing the parks is not necessary and it seems to me to be a knee-jerk reaction. To turn right around and say, "the issue will be discussed by the authorities concerned as the permanent closure can affect tour operators and tourism-related businesses" leads me to believe that they are merely searching for answers right now and are seriously concerned about... if nothing else... their image.

The only dangerous places in Khao Sok if it rains heavily are caves, the popular viewpoint hike and any creeks... even small ones. The creek that flows to the cave is certainly a small one. However, it's also part of a big watershed and it will raise up rapidly if conditions are right. It is still perfectly safe to paddle on the reservoir during heavy rains and to trek on the flatter trails. A bit of common sense is needed here please.

What needs to be done is setting guidelines and standards AND having the courage to enforce these laws and guidelines. Anyone who breaks the rules should be in serious trouble. Closing the park is not the answer in my opinion.

as reported earlier, i believe that the cave is currently closed.

I've been told by the manager of Grai Son Bungalows that the whole park is closed until they can figure out how to handle this and what to do to prevent it from happening again.

I don't see the need to close the entire park and I don't know if this applies to the river area of Khao Sok as well (I was told this is closed now too), but at least they're finally aware of the dangers.

But the British couple were oblivious to the risks when they set out from their simple cottages at Bamboo House

The company that lead this trip was Bamboo Company

Might I inquire as to your source of this information?

The news article cites Bamboo House in Surat Thani:

Lonely Planet Guide on Bamboo House

while you reference Bamboo Company:

Bamboo Company Tours website which is located in Trang, but does describe doing Kao Sok tours on their website.

Are these two entities connected? Or are you referencing a different Bamboo Company than the one above?

My source was the manager of Grai Son floating bungalows on the reservoir. I asked more than once if he was sure about the name. He said yes.

Thanks for the correction. In retrospect I should have checked more sources before my statement... sorry. I'm very upset right now.

Thank you for your response.

Do you know if the Bamboo Company is the same as the website given above?

Hi John, sorry, no I don't know for sure. I think it's best that I don't assume that they are. Sorry again for potentially pointing the finger at the wrong folks.

I've been approached by a government agency to help design guidelines for this activity. I have some other connections in the gov that I'll approach with my program.

Luckily, it doesn't take a whole lot more effort to do it right. Maybe these guides honestly didn't know about the potential for a flash flood. If so, it is imperative that all guides who enter realize what can happen and what they can do to prepare for such an event. One thing about this cave that is nice is that it has a very high ceiling. Worst case scenario, climb up. I don't know if that's what the woman who survived thought, but luck was with her this time. I can't imagine what she must have went through... she may need some medical help in order to get over her ordeal. I hope she's strong.

Let's keep our fingers crossed that the gov is serious about this and that they'll take the steps necessary to help prevent this from happening again, because if things don't change, this accident will certainly repeat itself.

Thanks...

But the British couple were oblivious to the risks when they set out from their simple cottages at Bamboo House

The company that lead this trip was Bamboo Company

Might I inquire as to your source of this information?

The news article cites Bamboo House in Surat Thani:

Lonely Planet Guide on Bamboo House

while you reference Bamboo Company:

Bamboo Company Tours website which is located in Trang, but does describe doing Kao Sok tours on their website.

Are these two entities connected? Or are you referencing a different Bamboo Company than the one above?

My source was the manager of Grai Son floating bungalows on the reservoir. I asked more than once if he was sure about the name. He said yes.

Thanks for the correction. In retrospect I should have checked more sources before my statement... sorry. I'm very upset right now.

Thanks a lot for you insight Taxexile... I agree with everything you said.

You said, "can anybody be a guide here in thailand , what exactly is the training if any?"

Yep, anyone who can come up with the large sum of money that it takes to get a TAT license. I wonder if these guides had a TAT license... there are a lot of guides who don't. If these didn't, that seems to me to be reason enough to put the director of their company in jail.

You said, "on the news last night a thai official commented that westerners like to confront nature and enjoy an element of danger."

Typical Thai shifting of responsibility. And, how the heII does this official know that Westerners like danger? This is entirely uncalled for and a very irresponsible thing to say... why am I not surprised though.

I'll bet that if the tourists in this group were told of the dangers that many, if not all, would have opted to do something else.

Your analysis of journalists is spot on too. They sugar-coat everything to appease the powers that be, afraid to offend anyone by telling them the truth.

I plan on contacting some outside media sources to see if they'd like to know the truth about adventure travel here and the facts about the Thais' attitude about safety.

This "accident" was completely avoidable. May their souls rest in peace...

usually when i went in to the cave, i had one guide (usually very experienced), the boat driver, myself, and often one more national parks guy with us. one person for a party of eight is simply not enough.

I don't mean to sound insulting, but please tell us how you knew your guide was 'very experienced'?

your questions arent insulting at all. i will do my best to answer them to the best of my ability.

the guides i were using were licenced guides (no, i know that doesnt mean a lot here, but it at least makes them legal). they had been working for the operator i was using for some time and did the cave walk a couple of times a week. by experienced, i do mean experienced on THAT particular walk. as for them being trained in outdoor adventure activities, i highly doubt it.

Did your guide:

1. Have at least two dependable waterproof sources of light for every person in the party and with fresh batteries in each light?

No. we did not have two per person. i made every group member take their own flashlight and made sure they had brand new batteries. i usually carried spares with me, as well as a spare flashlight.

2. Was your guide within talking distance to the party members for the duration of the walk... especially anywhere where someone could get in trouble?

when i was taking groups on that walk, i would have the NP guy or the boatman up the front, i would be in the middle and the guide would do the sweep at the back of the group. usually there was only 1 minute between the head and the sweep. in the difficult parts of the cave, we would all stop and do it one by one (especially at the steep waterfall drop in the middle of the cave) and i would have the group members swim two by two to the shallow water, leaving nobody to do it alone.

3. Were you given any sort of a briefing about exactly what you were getting into?

on my first training trip into the cave, i was given no instruction at all so i had no idea what the heck i was getting myself in to. as a result, i learned as much as i could and briefed my groups thoroughly on what they were getting in to. some people opted out of the cave walk after me telling them what they were in for, and i was usually thankful for that as i respect someone who knows their limitations.

4. Were you given any instructions about what to do if something goes wrong while swimming in the cave?

the guides didnt often do this, but i did it myself before going in. as i mentioned above, the most dangerous spot is that drop off in the middle, so i made them swim two by two to the shallow water. i always did a head count once everyone was down. if a swimmer did get into any difficulty, i always told them to try to get to an area of the wall where they could grab on to and wait for us. as mentioned earlier, we were usually never more than a minute behind them.

5. Did your guide have a proper first aid kit?

Yes. always.

6. Did your guide have any way of contacting help if there was an accident? Or at the minimum, have a person left behind who knew exactly what to do if you were one hour late? Two hours late? Longer?

as we were always staying at either Tone Toey or Ploen Pry, they always knew when to expect us back. both stations had a two way radio as far as i am aware and could contact the headquarters in the event of an emergency. im not sure what the situation is now though.

i am unsure as to whether they had procedures in place in the event of a group not returning.

This is a big part of what I do for a living, so I'm interested in just what sort of safety precautions were taken in your experience? I hope I didn't sound insulting... I'm just interested in how you answer my questions so I can feel better about at least one guide who did it properly. I'm sure they're out there.

my guides varied, but the BEST two guides in Khao Sok was a young bloke called You and also the husband of my friend, Aoo. These guys had the most common sense of all guides in the park in my opinion. in my opinion these two guys have passengers safety in mind at all times.

i guess that i am lucky that in over 5 years of tour leading i did not have one accident or incident that could be credited to the fault of a guide. the worst thing that happened to me was when we hit a submerged tree on the lake and the boat sank. with a hole the size of a football in the bottom of the boat we made it to shore before the boat was filled with water. no injuries and no loss of personal belongings. aside from that, nothing to mention.

i used to work for BHP in melbourne, and had the safety mentality drummed into me for years. i guess it rubbed off and i still put a lot of this into practice today.

Thanks...

Thanks for all of your answers Donna.

OK, so it sounds like you were a guide in some of your trips in Khao Sok. Having a Westerner on a trip who knows what the guests are about to get into and with the ability to describe what to expect makes a big difference. Having a 'sweep' guide is extremely important. In fact, the person in the back is the most important as they can see everything in front of them. The most safety conscious person in the group should be at the back. Walkie Talkies are helpful for bringing the group back together if the sweep decides that the group is getting to spread out.

By 'license' I'm guessing it was a TAT license which means absolutely NOTHING when it comes to safety, common sense or adventure touring. The TAT only knows how to fill planes and hotels. They're pathetic when it comes to everything else. But as you point out, that makes them legal, so the TAT should be included in the upcoming law suit. They need a wake-up call!

The park is closed for a week or so now. They don't need to close the park, they need to get all of the guides that go to the park certified and if they don't follow a strict set of guidelines there needs to be serious consequences. This will require enforcement, so I'm just dreaming. This will happen again I'm afraid. I am going to suggest to the park and the TAT (in other words waste my time) that they call in outside help for training guides to international standards. At the very least they should copy some of the guidelines for trekking and caving.

The company that lead this trip was Bamboo Company from the river area of Khao Sok.

Thanks again Donna...

usually when i went in to the cave, i had one guide (usually very experienced), the boat driver, myself, and often one more national parks guy with us. one person for a party of eight is simply not enough.

I don't mean to sound insulting, but please tell us how you knew your guide was 'very experienced'?

Did your guide:

1. Have at least two dependable waterproof sources of light for every person in the party and with fresh batteries in each light?

2. Was your guide within talking distance to the party members for the duration of the walk... especially anywhere where someone could get in trouble?

3. Were you given any sort of a briefing about exactly what you were getting into?

4. Were you given any instructions about what to do if something goes wrong while swimming in the cave?

5. Did your guide have a proper first aid kit?

6. Did your guide have any way of contacting help if there was an accident? Or at the minimum, have a person left behind who knew exactly what to do if you were one hour late? Two hours late? Longer?

This is a big part of what I do for a living, so I'm interested in just what sort of safety precautions were taken in your experience? I hope I didn't sound insulting... I'm just interested in how you answer my questions so I can feel better about at least one guide who did it properly. I'm sure they're out there.

Thanks...

A bit of tar is exactly what's needed! As is obvious from what Mr. Chalermsak said, it might hurt tourism operators and revenue It SHOULD hurt tourism! This is a crime and if the tar isn't brought out, mark my words, it will happen again. Sorry, I don't care as much for revenue as I do the lives of innocent tourists! Here's a good idea: fire Mr. Chalermsak and replace him with someone who actually understands that safety trumps money...

The nation of Thailand has a very lax attitude towards safety in general as can be witnessed by the way they drive and they way they'll ride a motorbike without a helmet as long as the cops aren't looking... not to mention the way outdoor adventure guides put their clients' lives at risk.

If you don't believe me and if you're in Chiang Mai, go to the Mae Teng river when it's running high and fast and watch how many cowboy raft guides come by without a life jacket or a helmet or a proper guide paddle (which needs to be bigger than the punters' paddles so the guide can steer the raft more efficiently).

Again, this same accident has happened before and it will happen again. The government needs to come down hard and stop all unqualified guides from doing anything that is risky.

There is plenty of information out there and plenty of certifying bodies that can teach risk assessment. Certifying guides to international standards is merely the first step however. To change the mindset there needs to be severe punishments for those who ignore safety rules and if there is an accident, heads need to roll.

There is more to tourism than merely filling planes and hotels. The government needs to swallow their pride and get some outside help. They don't need to reinvent the wheel. There are governing bodies for all sort of activities. For paddling, the British Canoe Union is probably the organization of choice. There are trekking organizations too, such as NOLS and others. There is no reason for not having properly trained trekking guides or any outdoor guides... that is, if safety actually matters to Thailand. I have my doubts.

This really makes me mad as I've seen this coming. I've witnessed guides on this very hike racing ahead of their clients so they could have a cigarette and being completely out of touch with their clients when inside the cave! Yes, I've ran into tourists in the cave who have asked me if I saw their guide!!! They usually have very weak torches (flashlights) and they don't have enough light sources for cave exploration. Please don't reply saying that they don't have the money to buy good gear. First of all, many of these companies make plenty of money and safety equipment is a lot more important that a fancy four-wheel drive truck for the boss.

Break out the tar! And, spread the word that you may be risking your life if you go with an unqualified tour guide in Thailand.

Update:

Police said a group of eight German tourists led by two Thai guides went into the cave which has a waterway leading to the Ratchaprapha Dam in Ban Takhun district at about 7:30 pm Saturday when they were swept away by the flash floods.

--The Nation 2007-10-14

Hold on here, are they actually saying that the tour started at 7:30 PM?? I'm guessing that they mean they started the search at that time. No responsible tour guide would start a three-hour hike which includes an hour in a cave at that time.... would they?

It must mistake just like saying that the cave "has a waterway leading to the Ratchaprapha Dam". The dam is 15+ miles from the cave area!

As usual, the information coming in isn't accurate. One thing is for sure, the company that ran this trip should be put out of business ASAP. The trip to the cave should be allowed during the rainiest season... as there are obviously guides who are incapable of making a proper safety/risk assessment.

This really pi55es me off as these poor tourists, one being a child, died because of blatant incompetents!!

This is not the first time that tourists have died in this cave in Khao Sok. The creek inside the cave can rise very rapidly in a very short time... and without any warning. It takes about an hour to get through the cave, depending on how fast you travel. You could be in the cave for a half an hour before reaching the area where the water is fast and the foot is bad.

After the last German woman died in this cave the locals put up a rope. Having a rope there does NOT mean that it's safe to go in at any water level or if it's raining hard outside. And, you don't know if it's raining hard outside if you've been in the cave for 30 minutes anyway. They should not allow tourists to go through this cave during the rainy season!!

I've met tour groups coming down the path to the cave dressed in backpacks, heavy hiking boots and all sort of gear. When I tell them what they are about to do, the most common reply is, "wow, I didn't know that. They didn't tell us anything about swimming through a cave!"

I reckon fleecing the little guy is how they get their jollies... and money.

They should go down to the deep south and help out there... oh wait, they fight back.

Thanks all... no response from my SMS to my buddy in Padang, but he's probably OK as he's inland a bit.

DJ... small tsunami hit Indonesia's Padang..

I have friends in Padang! Where did you get your info and was there any serious harm done?

On Thai TV right now it showed them evacuating in Ban Nam Kim, north of Khao Lak. they are taking this seriously.

Didn't feel it in Phuket Town. I managed to get through to my mates in Patong to tell them to be on guard. Thanks!

If someone's pitbull killed one of my loving dogs, I'm afraid that there would be one dead pitbull and one pitbull owner in the hospital with many broken bones.

This is totally unacceptable. For many of us, our dogs are like our children and the horror of having a family member killed would be more than some of us could handle/accept.

On the one hand, it seems like there are some nice pitbulls. Equally though, it seems like they can flip out without notice. My vote would be to stop the breed and start again with a more relaxed species...

... my two baht's worth anyway. :-)

I've been to many dentists in Phuket and I must admit that I've yet to have a bad experience. My favorite dental clinic is Promjai Dental Clinic. I've seen three different dentists there and they all are fluent in English. Check out http://www.promjaidental.com Tel: 076 261836 Email: [email protected]

They aren't the cheapest, but they are among the best.

Good luck!