bobbin

[quote name='BigBikeBKK' timestamp='1293025119' post='4103887'

The majority of the CBR buyers in Thailand will be young Thai males under 30. And while you think I'm dissing the bike I'm not- I expect it to sell very very well.

I just take exception with some of the keyboard warriors who think this new CBR 250 is the best thing since sliced bread. The only thing I find exciting about the new CBR is the option of ABS on a 250cc bike.

MSRP for the CBR 250 in the US is IDENTICAL to the Ninja 250R: $3999

As I've said a number of times, offering ABS on a 250cc bike is REVOLUTIONARY and Honda is to be congratulated and commended to bringing this life saving technology to small bikes at an affordable price.

But what makes it a good beginners bike may also be a handicap. New riders may soon outgrow the little CBR thumper and crave a bike with more power. Also, like the Ninjette, but even more, so the new CBR 250 will be woefully underpowered for riding two up. I did a bit of touring two up with my old Ninjette and with a 45Kg passenger the bike was a dog. Adding (or cutting) weight from small displacement motorcycles makes a BIG difference in power to weight ratios.

If a Honda Phantom or Kawasaki Boss puts a smile on your face then more power to you!

The new CBR 250 looks great, is very cheap and no doubt will be of typical excellent Honda build quality.

Heartfelt congratulations to those of you who have bought or are buying one!

Happy Trails!

Tony

Tony, I quoted the points I want to address.

You are absolutely right about the demographics of the Thai purchasers, but that was easy. There won't be many Thai girls buying them.

Some here went "keyboard warrior" in response to unwarranted and unwanted criticism of the Honda. I'm not backwards in coming forward so I and others took on the party-poopers. After all, this thread is for the CBR 250R (no quotes please!), not other brands. It's no different than going where supporters of any team, sports etc. are gathered and talking crap just to rile up the natives. You reap what you sew.

As for the "irrational exuberance", well think of us as part-Thai. Some of us have been here long enough to get very excited by this new Thai offering. Available cheaply, sold/serviced everywhere with a good warranty.

As for the price....well I said I would give it up but please allow one last comment. At least one of the American reviews quoted the price of the Ninja 250 as msrp $4299-$4499 according to color choice. With a 1 year warranty. Extra years to be purchased.

In America, Honda's msrp is $3999. Both of these bikes would add tax to those prices I assume.

But here in Thailand, Honda is offering the bike at approximately $3300. Tax included. 3 year warranty. So we are making out like bandits here as far as a good deal goes.

I would say that might be because they are made here. But the Ninja is also made here. And instead of cutting Thai (and us) consumers a break, they up the price in Thailand to almost $5000.

As for trading up, many of us are older than you and have "been there, done that". A lighter rider like myself at 66 kg has a significant advantage over a larger rider, therefore postponing or negating our need for more. More cc's, more hp, more torque.

As the Buddha says, "If you desire control, you must control desire".

However Tony, there is one area where you could add good input to our discussion.

At least one of your bikes had Kawasaki's version of ABS. One of the first reviews on Richard's (Where is he? Doesn't he want to explain how he got it so wrong?) site said the new-gen ABS would change the way we ride. Braking on corners,later braking etc. But none of the reviews so far really cover that, only saying it's available and good.

What are your thoughts on ABS? Will we lose good braking skills after relying on ABS equipment for extended periods? Like owning ABS-equipped bike for 2-3 years then going to non-ABS( If there are any by then). Buy ABS now because it's that good or get it as standard equipment in 2-3 years on the next bike? Keeping in mind o cash-advantaged one that it's Bt.15,000/$500 more.

bobbin

(not too proud to reach out )

Looking at the ThaiVisa crowd I'd divide the prospective CBR 250 buyers into two groups.

First are posers and wannabes who want to ride a bike that LOOKS fast, even though they don't actually have the skills to go fast. Many of them can't afford anything bigger or faster than the CBR 250 and even if they did buy bigger / faster bikes they wouldn't know how to ride them. I guess it's pretty obvious I don't have much respect for those guys...

Second group are the older guys (many (not all) with limited funds) who are looking for a cheap small easy-to-ride bike that they will mainly use for short trips around town and the occasional day trip and don't want or need anything big or fast.

Tony

Oh... Tony.........

Care to go public with the list?

MS Word has a spell checker incorporated and will also on request check the grammar. I do not want to climb all over those who are not native English speakers; there are enough native speakers whose literacy is far from perfect. However if those who scribble here want to their bon mots to be accorded a greater degree of gravitas it would help if they made greater efforts to display a closer infinity with perceived English.

Those who have the misfortune to have to live all their lives knowing that they are 'foreign' would improve themselves, or their fund of knowledge anyway, if they made use of the tools available.

Well written and you really had it going on.......

Until you hit "infinity"....

actually, it's "affinity"...

Ok.

For the benefit of Kawasaki Ninja 250 fans...

Don't shoot the messenger!

I like the Ninja 250. I don't like the price....

I like the Honda Cbr250r. And I like the price.

Trading on the accuracy 2.5 years ago of my price prediction for a reasonably priced 250 of Bt100-110k, I offer a couple more.

Kawasaki lowers the price to launch-level of Bt.137-139k including ABS and larger, better tires. They are currently smaller than Honda's. Offers a 4 year limited warranty. They would still be Bt.22-24k more expensive but closing the gap.

Honda's price will likely creep up Bt.5-10,000, like Kawasaki's launch price did. Gap gets closer yet.

The base model, sans ABS, will be the runaway best seller of the two Cbr bikes. Tremendous value.

This will prove out for next years models as Honda will be eating Kawasaki's lunch for the next year.

How am I doing so far...?

Someone mentioned the EU mandating ABS on all bikes (over 125?) by 2017. I think we'll start seeing the fruits of that starting next 2-3 years. More and more bikes with ABS as standard equipment. The base model will get them too, so there will only be one version to match the Kawasaki (and Hyosung?) offerings.

Please allow me to go off topic for a moment.

I'm catching a fair bit of flak over my cost/value approach.

Poo-pooing monthly differences of 200% to 300% and sales price differences of 50% is exactly the kind of thinking that got the whole economy into the mess it's in now. Mindless consumerism...

If more of us did more informed, intelligent purchasing we wouldn't be looking at mega debt handed off to the next generation to pay.

I'm leaving it to you to fill in the gaps here because nobody wants to get that far off topic. :jap:

Another point....

Mityon Pattaya is willing to give me Bt.19,000 in trade against either the Cbr150 or Cbr250. They put the offer in writing.

I bought the bike, first year in the model series, in Dec. 2002. Let's do the math...

I paid Bt. 65,000. Less trade-in value of Bt.19,000 = Bt.46,000.

Divided by 96 months. That's a monthly cost of Bt. 479.16.

Now let's do the Ninja250, shall we? In this calculation, the numbers will be approximate..

Purchase price Bt 147,500. (This is for you Tony)

Sell after 24 months for Bt.80,000. There is such a report further up the thread. But we'll do it at Bt100,000 as well, since that's what one poor fellow in the classifieds wants. And he won't negotiate...yet.

Bt.147,500 less Bt80,000 = Bt.67,500 /24 months = Bt.2812.50 per month.

Bt.147,500 less Bt.100,000=Bt.47,500/24 months = Bt.1979.16 per month. But there won't be many resold at that price.

erm.. 2 things..

1) your looking at the cost of one for 96 months and the other for 24 months ?? Split the depreciation of the CBR (46k) over 24 months and its 1916 baht a month.. Or spread the cost of the ninja depreciation over 96 months and its at worse 703 baht.. 225 baht a month worse than the CBR !!!

2) the ninja was cheaper than its current price on launch also wasnt it ??

Uh...no.

After 2 years, the Cbr150 would still be worth 45-50k. So quite a bit less than 1k/mo.

The launch price was only in effect for a few months and the example was for a 2 year-old Ninja.

Yes, the figures can be adjusted somewhat but the trend is clear.

Adjusted 'somewhat' ?!?!

Your spreading the CBR over 96 months and the Ninja over 24 !!

Hardly a fair comparison !! But of course you want to be biased..

Really if the 1000 baht or so a month difference is a big deal to you.. Advise you to find a pushbike !

No need to get offensive just because you are no good at math or keeping up with the thread or reading comprehension for that matter.

I'll go slower....

I have owned the old model for 96 months at amonthly cost of less than 500/month. see above.

Just1voice recently got rid of his after 18 months at a cost of less than 800/month.

So a 2 y/o old model would lose less than 1000/mo. Probably around 900/month. Hence the "somewhat".

A 2 y/o Ninja would sell between 80-100.000. Max. 80,000 more likely.

147500-80000= -67,500. divide by 24 . cost 2812/month.

Honda 250 after 2 years? 75,000?

100,000-75,000= 25,000. divide by 24. cost 1041/month.

I've already got bicycle. In North America we don't call them pushbikes. Because you pedal them. You don't push them.

You actually should have kept mum, as the figures look even worse now for the Ninjas.

Another point....

Mityon Pattaya is willing to give me Bt.19,000 in trade against either the Cbr150 or Cbr250. They put the offer in writing.

I bought the bike, first year in the model series, in Dec. 2002. Let's do the math...

I paid Bt. 65,000. Less trade-in value of Bt.19,000 = Bt.46,000.

Divided by 96 months. That's a monthly cost of Bt. 479.16.

Now let's do the Ninja250, shall we? In this calculation, the numbers will be approximate..

Purchase price Bt 147,500. (This is for you Tony)

Sell after 24 months for Bt.80,000. There is such a report further up the thread. But we'll do it at Bt100,000 as well, since that's what one poor fellow in the classifieds wants. And he won't negotiate...yet.

Bt.147,500 less Bt80,000 = Bt.67,500 /24 months = Bt.2812.50 per month.

Bt.147,500 less Bt.100,000=Bt.47,500/24 months = Bt.1979.16 per month. But there won't be many resold at that price.

erm.. 2 things..

1) your looking at the cost of one for 96 months and the other for 24 months ?? Split the depreciation of the CBR (46k) over 24 months and its 1916 baht a month.. Or spread the cost of the ninja depreciation over 96 months and its at worse 703 baht.. 225 baht a month worse than the CBR !!!

2) the ninja was cheaper than its current price on launch also wasnt it ??

Uh...no.

After 2 years, the Cbr150 would still be worth 45-50k. So quite a bit less than 1k/mo.

The launch price was only in effect for a few months and the example was for a 2 year-old Ninja.

Yes, the figures can be adjusted somewhat but the trend is clear.

Well, I guess having owned a Ninjette 250R previously I'd be considered too biased to compare it against a CBR 250, but if you need a tester I'll be happy to volunteer.

Tony

I'd be down for you testing; kinda put that in there to exclude you specifically since the (potential?) CBR 250 owners seem to, well, hate you, but whatever.

[quote name=JonnyF' timestamp='1292766230' post='4097397

I'd have thought you'd be taking your 5 series BMW to the 711 , but when buying Pattaya condos and BMW's it seems your obsession with value for money and depreciation have deserted you

By the way, did you buy the CBR yet, or still just talking about it?

For those who have bought the bike, it's good to hear the first impressions - please keep them coming...

Who takes a Beemer to to the 711?

And no contradictions....

My condo would be 3 or 4 times the price in most other sea-side resorts.

BMW depreciate at a snails pace in Thailand....

Why are these things mostly Pattaya? This stuff is common in Thailand, but we only hear about Pattaya. Press wants to have a place to prove is bad?

Mate come off it, pattaya is a world renound sess pit. dirtiest scumiest part of thailand and that is saying something.

Just say what you mean, numbnuts, no need to sugar-coat it.

Oh, the spelling. the spelling.......

To quote the test

kitted-up 185-lb rider can hit 65 no problem. Reaching 75 is a bit more effort. And after that, the next 10 mph comes considerably slower. Once into the upper 80s, a long stretch is required to push its indicated speed past that big 9-0, maybe into the low 90s – and Japanese speedometers are notoriously optimistic by a few percent.

We're giving you this detail because lots of people want to know how it stacks up against Kawasaki's Twin-cylinder Ninja 250R. We've seen that bike hit an indicated 101 mph, and in stock form Gabe tells me it has been clocked at a true 93 mph or better

The 13,000-redline Kawi is quicker, but you have to scream it.

So there we have it really - as predicted. If you want to ride around all day at 4000 rpm, love Honda and want to save a few quid get the cbr. If you want a true 250cc sportsbike as opposed to a commuter bike with fairings - then the higher revving, harder hitting, stylish, quicker option is the Ninja. I've never heard a group of bikers so reluctant to go above 7000 rpm as I have on this CBR thread. But again we have to consider the demographics of the forum....

My bikes are a hobby, a passion. But for guys looking for the cheapest monthly payment for the 711 run, I am sure you have found your bike.

Selective quoting here.

Their bottom line was that the Cbr was a solid competitor to the Ninja. To most people that phrase means just that. It will give the Ninja a run for it's money. Otherwise they would have said "It's no competition" for the Ninja.

And on our way down to 7, we'll have Bt.50k more in our pocket than a Ninja purchaser.

And if you find us all a bunch of old fogeys, feel free to go back to the Ninja thread. I think I woke it up. That would make 2 of you there.

Still, even then things are not clear. If the Ninja 250R is slightly better in most maneuvers, and if the Honda "CBR" 250 outsells it 10-1, which is really "better" A. From the point of view of the corporations, or B. from ours? To confuse matters, it may be that the little Ninja, with its factory fixed price, may make more profit per unit. Great fun all around!

CMX! Why are you putting quotes around CBR yet acknowledge Kawasaki's Ninja?

Just joshin' you. :jap:

Good links taichiplanet! Thanks for the research.

Well, there you have it....the first real review of all characteristics.

Acknowledged as one of the CBR family, not a red-headed step-child. Point scored on the posters who said it's a bastard.

Better real-world power, down where most riders need it.

As taichiplanet noted, the engine currently somewhat choked and open to further modding.

Ninja killer? Nope.

Solid competition? Yes.

That's all I needed to hear. Hope it's enough to quiet some of the party-poopers here as well.

I also noticed the CBR250 when I purchased my new PCX in Red / Black design almost two weeks ago. It looks very sporty and is definitely much faster than the PCX. Anyway I chose the PCX over the CBR250, as I only need the bike to get around in the city, where speed does not mean a lot. Furthermore I prefer the more upright sitting position and the storage position on the PCX, though I still sometimes have to use the mirrors as well. Also I find automatic transmisson to be a large convenience for city riding and when always wearing sandals.

I have the same reasons for ordering the PCX .The CBR250 looks great but is not very practical .I wish Honda would bring out a Phantom type bike with two cylinders and 250 cc .

I would not hold my breath on that one. Given the new CBR 250 was released as a single cylinder, it might be better to hope for a newly-updated single cylinder 250cc. And I'll bet it's not far off.

Nice to have the bigger tires - corners so easily and confidently. Comfortable too. The riding position is virtually the same as the old 150...

Headlights are way better - can actually see at night in the mountains. Someone reported that the kickstand is in a stupid place - indeed it is..

Mark, nice preliminary report. I'm glad to hear that the headlights actually are better. They needed to be an improvement over the old model 150.

I actually thought the riding position was marginally better than the old/new 150.

It was me that mentioned the kickstand. Looking at both bikes side by side at the test rides, I could see that the 250's kickstand was 2-3 inches (5-7.5 cm) shorter than the 150's. And it is in a weird position, not where you expect it to be. Perhaps a kickstand from the 150 could be swapped over.

Yes, you are consistent about one thing- being a cheap skate.

So Bobbin, since you seem to be such a cheap charlie and spend so much time complaining that the Ninja 250 is too expensive for you, why aren't you complaining that the CBR 250 is overpriced compared to the Tiger Boxer 250? Just wonderin...

Ride On!

Tony

Well, Tony, being a consumer is all about priorities....

Perhaps I decided that that my not unlimited resources were better directed towards my large high-floor sea-view condo and my 5 series BMW.

And rather than serially changing my bikes, I find it more stimulating to serially change my women...

Here is what I wrote Aug. 30 2008 re the Ninja 250...

Before we get too much further into the thread I would just like to say that the only negative about the Ninja 250 for me is it's price.

If it had come priced in the 100-110K range i would be down there ordering one tommorow! That is figuring up from 63-65K for the Cbr 150 and 85K for the Phantom.

At least I'm consistent.

In looking for that quote in a Ninja 250 thread, I had to go back 8 pages. Been awhile since anyone had something to say about the Ninja 250.....

I also notice that BBBkk aka Tony, made about half of the posts in that 26 page thread. So he is just going to ignore what doesn't fit in his world-view. At least until it's staring him in the face...

Let's all hope for an early comparison of the two bikes so we can put this performance issue to bed.

As for the price issue, well that's done and dusted and the clear winner is Honda.....and me.

So have you bought it yet? Or have you been too busy digging up 2 year old posts? Or still working out whether the taxi to the dealer will be 800% better than the baht bus?

I look forward to your ride report.

Why would I take a taxi?

Another point....

Mityon Pattaya is willing to give me Bt.19,000 in trade against either the Cbr150 or Cbr250. They put the offer in writing.

I bought the bike, first year in the model series, in Dec. 2002. Let's do the math...

I paid Bt. 65,000. Less trade-in value of Bt.19,000 = Bt.46,000.

Divided by 96 months. That's a monthly cost of Bt. 479.16.

Now let's do the Ninja250, shall we? In this calculation, the numbers will be approximate..

Purchase price Bt 147,500. (This is for you Tony)

Sell after 24 months for Bt.80,000. There is such a report further up the thread. But we'll do it at Bt100,000 as well, since that's what one poor fellow in the classifieds wants. And he won't negotiate...yet.

Bt.147,500 less Bt80,000 = Bt.67,500 /24 months = Bt.2812.50 per month.

Bt.147,500 less Bt.100,000=Bt.47,500/24 months = Bt.1979.16 per month. But there won't be many resold at that price.

Here is what I wrote Aug. 30 2008 re the Ninja 250...

Before we get too much further into the thread I would just like to say that the only negative about the Ninja 250 for me is it's price.

If it had come priced in the 100-110K range i would be down there ordering one tommorow! That is figuring up from 63-65K for the Cbr 150 and 85K for the Phantom.

At least I'm consistent.

In looking for that quote in a Ninja 250 thread, I had to go back 8 pages. Been awhile since anyone had something to say about the Ninja 250.....

I also notice that BBBkk aka Tony, made about half of the posts in that 26 page thread. So he is just going to ignore what doesn't fit in his world-view. At least until it's staring him in the face...

Let's all hope for an early comparison of the two bikes so we can put this performance issue to bed.

As for the price issue, well that's done and dusted and the clear winner is Honda.....and me.

And I'm not dissing the Ninja 250 owners. I feel badly for them that Kawasaki sold them an over-priced bike.

And that will cost them money when they resell. They paid almost Bt.50k more than the Honda, and if they want to resell, they will have to under-price the Honda. So maybe a loss of Bt.70K for a 2 year-old bike. Ouch! That's almost 50%.

The above figures are based on the real selling price of the Honda (not present early-purchaser gouging) and the current price of the 250 Ninja (Bt.149K)

You keep saying the Kawasaki Ninja 250R is overpriced. What nonsense. I think it's cheap as chips.

You needn't pity the Ninja 250R owners. They paid more and got a better bike. Not that there's anything WRONG with the new Honda CBR250. But there's some truth to the old saying "You get what you pay for".

And please get your facts straight. For 2010 the Ninja 250R sells for 147.5k Baht, not 149k. Unlike Honda Ape with their "recommended retail pricing" which means you have no idea what your dealership might charge, with Team Green there's no need to run around looking for the best price or worry about being cheated because Kawasaki sets the prices, not the dealerships.

Yes, they did pay more. Did they get a better bike? You don't know, do you?

"You get what you pay for". Keep telling yourself that.

According to that "theory", the Kawasaki has to do everything 30+% better. Ain't gonna happen.

And calling me on a difference of Bt1,500? 1%. What's with that? Pretty lame-ass.

As for affecting resale price, they're different bikes with different specs which will appeal to people with different tastes. Does a Mini lose value because a Honda City is released at 30% of the price? Of course not.

They are obviously different bikes with different specs but they are aimed at the same market segment.

Kawasaki took advantage of the fact they were the only game in town to charge the price they did. As one poster mentioned, perhaps their only face-saving out is to include ABS on new models at the current price.

There are none so blind as those that will not see......

Then again, a Tiger Boxer 250RS is probably just as capable as the new CBR, but quite a bit cheaper.

I'm sorry if you consider this "thread crapping". I'm just sharing my two satang. :jap:

Ride On!

Tony

Yep, that's thread-crapping Tony.

Just be glad (I'm sure you are), that you are a past owner of a Ninja 250 or it would be you that was out Bt70K.

Kudos to Dave for not expressing any bitterness.

As other posters have said, it not a massive difference in price.

Be interesting to see the head to head. My guess is it will be close with the Ninja edging it but we'll wait and see

Nice back-pedaling, Jonny.....

I, and pretty much anybody else, would call 33% a significant, if not massive, price difference for comparable machines.

And I'm not dissing the Ninja 250 owners. I feel badly for them that Kawasaki sold them an over-priced bike.

And that will cost them money when they resell. They paid almost Bt.50k more than the Honda, and if they want to resell, they will have to under-price the Honda. So maybe a loss of Bt.70K for a 2 year-old bike. Ouch! That's almost 50%.

The above figures are based on the real selling price of the Honda (not present early-purchaser gouging) and the current price of the 250 Ninja (Bt.149K)

[quote name='JonnyF' timestamp='1292428808' post='4090089'

Not to mention the Kawa is a parallel twin, proven, attractive, supported by professional dealerships/mechanics, ride days, race days etc. Make sure you have fun with that 30k baht you saved (depending on the dealer/availability etc.), you can replace the Kenwood pipe with a Yoshimura and get a respray

He he. This is going to be fun!

The Ninja 250 fans will be coming up with all sorts reasons why you should not save yourself Bt. 40+k (not 30k).

Do they really think Honda will stuff up a Global Release? Really?

There may be a little price-gouging by some Dealers due to low initial availability, but as the factory provides more and more product that problem will disappear.

And...anyone betting that Honda's 250 won't outsell Kawasaki's 250 by at least 5-1 is going to lose their money.