JoeInSurin

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

Chuan Leekpai's origins and upbringing were fairly humble.

There is always the exception but is not as easy here. I know several girls in the village that are gifted and excellant students that can not afford the 40,000 baht (which is illegal to charge) fee to get into the best school here. Their potential will not be reached. In the USA all kids get the same chance regardless on financial status.

Not true joe

In the USA ---Inner city schools are notoriously bad in most cases as are rural schools and SEVERELY underfunded compared to white sub-urban middle class schools. The "BEST" schools are not obtainable even to the middle class in most instances.

There is a hotline to report schools for extorting 'fees'

One family here in Surin tried to fight paying the tea money to get into the same school as my wifes daughter. He was asked by the courts to get reciepts from other people that had paid the fees. Of course no one got any receipt. Then he was asked to get people to come to court to say they had been charged these fees. Of course no one wanted to come forward. His kids can't get in any school now.

The schools in the USA are by district. If there are people living in apartartments or million dollar homes they all go to the same school. You are correct that some poor states have worse schools but they still have scholarships for the outstanding students.

I have stated that the teachers living near me are pro-PAD. I have no idea why the government would lend them amounts of money they could never pay back. I would like to know why also. They come from the elite from the same provinces as the farmers. You are suggesting that no more loans should be given to farmers that they can never pay them back while asking me why no more loans should be given to teachers that they can never pay back. What is the difference? The PAD teachers around me have got loans they could never pay back for their second or third car, gambling debt, young girl friends, ect. The farmers have got the loans for rice seed , fertilizer, cows ect. to survive. The teachers owe millions and the farmers owe 20,000 baht. The pro-PAD teachers are going to Bangkok to the rallys complaining about the farmers and PPP.

joe ....

What teachers rec'd millions of baht in loans? and for what? Oh, you say you don't know. is there any evidence that any teachers were given loans of "Millions"? I don't know af any but a few teachers in BKK that have "millions of baht". Teaching is not an ELITE job and the elite do not need the loans you claim they have gotten. (but certainly wouldn't be teachers) If you have an "elite" that chose teaching it would be because they truly desired to. You are making claims that I have NEVER once heard before about teachers and loans! (Yes some upper level academics have soundly been pro PAD (or at least vehemently anti-Thaksin, but average teachers? hardly 'elite' people!

I have not suggested no more loans be given to farmers. However I will now do so! No loans should be given to farmers! They should get assistance without the need to pay it back IF there is real need not generated by their own neglect. Your claims of what farmers have used loans for are very likely valid but there are many reports about the loans being used for TV's mobile phones etc ... which is why I think that the answer is NOT to throw money at the situation leading people further into debt until they lose the land they have held for ages! Assistance? absolutely! cash? never!

Here in Surin teaching I consider elite being most people are farmers. If you don't know that it is easy for teachers to get loans you are misinformed. Do some research. I don't have time to school you. The people don't have millions of baht. They owe millions of baht the same as the farmers owe 20,000 baht. The only evidence I have is what they have told me. Why would anyone tell me they were in debt to the government for these loans? Would this impress me?

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

Chuan Leekpai's origins and upbringing were fairly humble.

There is always the exception but is not as easy here. I know several girls in the village that are gifted and excellant students that can not afford the 40,000 baht (which is illegal to charge) fee to get into the best school here. Their potential will not be reached. In the USA all kids get the same chance regardless on financial status.

Joe --- you may not know it but the 30 baht health scheme was not a Thaksin thing and the village loan scheme has created more debt and is causing far more issues than it has helped with!

Most of the pro-PAD school teachers that live near me have been lent more money from the government, because they are school teachers, than they can ever pay back in two life times creating more debt and causing issue also. Does this bother you? They have been lent millions of baht that will never be paid back. The farmers have been lent 20,000 baht. What is your point?

Joe, the tactic you are taking is not answering the things put to you ... it is trying to shift the answer/blame. You seem to be suggesting that teachers are Pro PAD (why?) and why have they been lent money from the government? and did they not come from the same communities that the farmers do?

but the question about the farmers remains If your village loan scheme creates a debt that eventually causes the farmer to lose his land did it help or hurt the farmer? (The teachers I know that teach up-country in government schools come from up-country. Are you suggesting that no more loans should be given to teachers? How is that an answer?

It's and old, old story keeping the workers in a financial bind to control them....

Work 16 hours and what a ya get

Another day older and deeper in debt.

Saint Peter can't hear me when I call.

I sold my soul to the company store.

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

Joe --- you may not know it but the 30 baht health scheme was not a Thaksin thing and the village loan scheme has created more debt and is causing far more issues than it has helped with!

Most of the pro-PAD school teachers that live near me have been lent more money from the government, because they are school teachers, than they can ever pay back in two life times creating more debt and causing issue also. Does this bother you? They have been lent millions of baht that will never be paid back. The farmers have been lent 20,000 baht. What is your point?

Joe, the tactic you are taking is not answering the things put to you ... it is trying to shift the answer/blame. You seem to be suggesting that teachers are Pro PAD (why?) and why have they been lent money from the government? and did they not come from the same communities that the farmers do?

but the question about the farmers remains If your village loan scheme creates a debt that eventually causes the farmer to lose his land did it help or hurt the farmer? (The teachers I know that teach up-country in government schools come from up-country. Are you suggesting that no more loans should be given to teachers? How is that an answer?

I have stated that the teachers living near me are pro-PAD. I have no idea why the government would lend them amounts of money they could never pay back. I would like to know why also. They come from the elite from the same provinces as the farmers. You are suggesting that no more loans should be given to farmers that they can never pay them back while asking me why no more loans should be given to teachers that they can never pay back. What is the difference? The PAD teachers around me have got loans they could never pay back for their second or third car, gambling debt, young girl friends, ect. The farmers have got the loans for rice seed , fertilizer, cows ect. to survive. The teachers owe millions and the farmers owe 20,000 baht. The pro-PAD teachers are going to Bangkok to the rallys complaining about the farmers and PPP.

Joe --- you may not know it but the 30 baht health scheme was not a Thaksin thing and the village loan scheme has created more debt and is causing far more issues than it has helped with!

Most of the pro-PAD school teachers that live near me have been lent more money from the government, because they are school teachers, than they can ever pay back in two life times creating more debt and causing issue also. Does this bother you? They have been lent millions of baht that will never be paid back. The farmers have been lent 20,000 baht. What is your point?

If Somchai would do his part to avoid bloodshed, by resigning and dissolving parliament, then I think PAD would honor their pledge and stop the protest. What I hope would follow is an election campaign in which PAD does not run as a political party, but instead allies with the Democrat party and its candidate for PM, Abhisit. If the Democrats can manage to put forth a platform that offers something to the poor folks in the north and NE, they might just be able to win the next election.

The PAD does not want to offer anything to the poor folks. They want to keep the poor under-educated with nothing, that is how they get their 100 baht a day labor to get as rich as they are. The PAD hate the PPP because they are helping the poor and are a threat to their exploitation of cheap labor. The PAD I know have passed college no matter what grades they had as long as they were paying the tuition. They also have got many jobs from knowing people and not on their qualifications. There is no way some should be in the positions they are in. This is just as corrupt as vote buying but being to their advantage it is OK with them. With the poor people being the majority they have come into power and are a threat to their exploitation. They say they are too dumb to vote. If you exploit the masses and keep them under-educated they will be victim to vote buying and can come into power in a democratic society. Untill the elite offer people an equal opportunity for education and employment this is what they will get. This will never happen as the elite might have to actually pass college and qualify for their jobs.

Please inform us about which PAD people you are referring to when you say the underlined phrases above!

Then please explain how that does not apply to some of Thaksin's family and most of the TRT/PPP faction?

I will agree that it would apply to both but at least PPP will give them 30 baht health care and small loans for their farms. They are trying to give back to the hard working people that help them. To PAD this is outrageous. Do you think there is a fair difference between the rich and poor? PAD acts like they are getting the raw end of the deal. It is the country of every Thai rich and poor. It should serve all of the population. Why do you hate the poor people that go about their lives without complaining and side with people that have it all and bitch about some poor farmer getting 30 baht health care and a small loan for their farm?? I would never get my kicks from talking down to those more unfortunate than me.

somchai should sack the army general immediately and put someone in place that can do the job. ie. remove the 'protesters' from the airport.

This move would create exactly what is feverishly tried to be avoided at all cost!

Go on.... Tianmen Square fan?

So you think the only way to remove protesters is to shoot them????

Bring in a general with some balls, tear gas (american made please) , water cannons , clear exit paths , get them back on the freeway and tear gas them back home until they are crying for their mommy.

or let somchai sign the papers for dissolve house--problem fixed

Why would he let a mob make him dissolve the house. That is as bad as the shipping companies paying off the pirates.

If Somchai would do his part to avoid bloodshed, by resigning and dissolving parliament, then I think PAD would honor their pledge and stop the protest. What I hope would follow is an election campaign in which PAD does not run as a political party, but instead allies with the Democrat party and its candidate for PM, Abhisit. If the Democrats can manage to put forth a platform that offers something to the poor folks in the north and NE, they might just be able to win the next election.

Why should the government bend over and pull their pants down? Whether you like it or not they were democratically elected and recognized by the international community.

Doing such a thing would send a very bad message to the peoples of this country, and would basically mean that anyone using terrorist tactics to obtain what they want will work.

They are not democratic elected as confirmed by the EC. Somewhere middle December the PPP will be dissolved for vote buying. That is the reason why they want to change the constitution.

so they are NOT democratic elected.

In many other countries governments dissolve house for much less.

In many other countries governments or courts dissolve house and not mobs. It is the courts job not vigilanties.

somchai should sack the army general immediately and put someone in place that can do the job. ie. remove the 'protesters' from the airport.

This move would create exactly what is feverishly tried to be avoided at all cost!

Go on.... Tianmen Square fan?

So you think the only way to remove protesters is to shoot them????

somchai should sack the army general immediately and put someone in place that can do the job. ie. remove the 'protesters' from the airport.

I agree. I think they should put Colin Powell in his place. Problem solved.

If Somchai would do his part to avoid bloodshed, by resigning and dissolving parliament, then I think PAD would honor their pledge and stop the protest. What I hope would follow is an election campaign in which PAD does not run as a political party, but instead allies with the Democrat party and its candidate for PM, Abhisit. If the Democrats can manage to put forth a platform that offers something to the poor folks in the north and NE, they might just be able to win the next election.

The PAD does not want to offer anything to the poor folks. They want to keep the poor under-educated with nothing, that is how they get their 100 baht a day labor to get as rich as they are. The PAD hate the PPP because they are helping the poor and are a threat to their exploitation of cheap labor. The PAD I know have passed college no matter what grades they had as long as they were paying the tuition. They also have got many jobs from knowing people and not on their qualifications. There is no way some should be in the positions they are in. This is just as corrupt as vote buying but being to their advantage it is OK with them. With the poor people being the majority they have come into power and are a threat to their exploitation. They say they are too dumb to vote. If you exploit the masses and keep them under-educated they will be victim to vote buying and can come into power in a democratic society. Untill the elite offer people an equal opportunity for education and employment this is what they will get. This will never happen as the elite might have to actually pass college and qualify for their jobs.

"a government afraid of the people - what could be better?"

This is definitely not the precedent that has been set in this situation. The continual indulgence of the PAD has set a precedent that may well make the country ungovernable for years to come.

You assume, as usual, that PAD has no valid reasons to protests.

I come from a different angle, as you well know.

PAD is public's reaction to the government, not the other way around, and it's unreasonable to think that people would engage in such a prolonged campaign for frivolous reasons and disrupt's next governement for nothing.

Surely UDD can try to demonstrate against Democrats, hypothetically speaking, but since they don't have any real issues or platform, they will have really hard time making themselves heard, and Democrats would be shit scared to provide them with any ammunition, too.

How's that bad for the country?

They have many valid reasons to protest. That is their right to do without breaking any laws. It is not unreasonable for people to engage in a prolonged campaign within the law. Where I used to live in Washington, D.C. there were many protests against the government. This is their right. Not once did any of them think it was reasonable to take over government buildings and seige the airports. Taking over the government house and the airport is unreasonable and can not be tolerated by any government. If the country gives into this kind of civil disobedience it sets a bad precedence and is bad for the country.

Cougar I am sure that when the government resigns that the PAD will vacate the airport.

Just so everyone understands my previous post. The General and the community suggested dissolution of Parliament, PM to resign, and new elections, PART 2 WAS THAT PAD TO STOP THE PROTESTS IMMEDIATELY.

And in less than 5 minutes, PAD announced from Government House that they disagree with the suggestion and do not intend to stop.

SO WHY QUESTION AGAIN IS WHAT IS IT THAT THEY ARE PROTESTING, WHAT DO THEY WANT.????

cAN YOU ANSWER THAT FOR ME? JD??

The PAD leaders are on a power trip. No matter what happens they will disagree so they can continue with ASTV and be in the news and such. If they agree and go home they are no longer important and have power.

Terrorists wins then...

If this is confirmed, I will never invest one more baht in this country...

They just confirmed officially their status of 3rd world, banana republic country.

Sad day indeed.

No problem many others will invest some more Baht when the corruption is reduced and the land gets a democratic elected government.

I never posted on this forum before but have been reading it for a few month already.

You are by far the most biased and extremist pro pad poster around.

While there can be a relatively normal debate with some other pro pad posters; there is absolutely no chance of having a discussion that makes any sense with you, I consider you as a lost cause, and that's why I won't even lose my time trying to answer your post.

No hard feelings though and goodbye.

I think jdinasia gives him a good run for the most biased. Both of them need deprogramming. (Deprogramming refers to a process that reverses brainwashing)

BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) - Thai anti-government demonstrators fired shots at government supporters as the rival sides clashed Thursday afternoon on a major highway in the Thai capital of Bangkok.

The fighting began when government supporters began throwing rocks at a truck carrying members of the People's Alliance for Democracy as it was returning from Bangkok's old airport, where the group had been holding a rally.

The airport has served as temporary government headquarters since the alliance occupied the prime minister's office in late August.

The anti-government group responded by firing slingshots and at least two pistols from their truck, and then gave chase to the attackers, who appeared to number several dozen, according to footage shown on Thai PBS television. The gunmen fired about half a dozen shots.

The men on the truck appeared by their dress—wearing camouflage clothes and yellow armbands—to be among the so-called guards working for the alliance, who have earned a reputation for aggressive behavior.

They also hoisted a portrait of King Bhumibol Adulyadej, Thailand's revered monarch, whose interests they claim to be working for.

The alliance has previously denied that they carry guns, though reporters from The Associated Press have seen them carrying and shooting firearms at earlier confrontations.

The footage showed anti-government supporters surrounding a motorcycle taxi driver and putting a knife to his throat. After the driver fled, the protesters hit several motorbikes with steel rods and set fire to another one.

The two sides are fairly easy to distinguish, since the protest alliance favors yellow shirts and their rivals red ones. Some of the government supporters seen fleeing were wearing red shirts.

The Narenthorn Medical Center said four people were taken to the hospital.

The pro-government crowd appeared to be members of a loose association of taxi drivers who support the government and are supporters of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

The People's Alliance for Democracy opposed the current government, because it considers it to be a puppet of Thaksin, who was accused of corruption and abuse of power and deposed in a September 2006 military coup. During the brief skirmish, neither police nor any other security forces intervened

Why do you keep claiming the gas grenades are from china and if so which ones? Here is the thread about the grenades and it points to the grenades being US grenades, not Chinese. I read they modified the grenades to be more explosive, how much truth is in that I don't know, however I am sure the gas grenades are not suppose to blow off people's limbs.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/131008_News/13Oct2008_news08.ph

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=131394

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...=china+tear+gas

Please show me proof that points to the US tear gas being bad as you are claiming and not from China.

Why does anyone waste their time and the forum space to argue with or attempt to inform joelinsurin is beyond my understanding... (If you think a PAD mob is the right thing for Thailand that would be beyond my understanding) Now looking back at a few of the people who on this forum keep defending T and PPP against all evidences of crimes and corruption (I have never done this and have always said the legal system and courts should decide this and not a mob), considering that they have some sort of education (the top schools in the USA) as they can express themselves in English and use a computer and internet, I find it easier to forgive the farmers from Isaan who did not have a chance to be educated nor were given the information to formulate some sort of opinion and ended up taking a few baht (previously stolen from them) to buy their vote in an election (Parroted from the PAD).

I am not pro anything, but I am against crime, dictators, corruption and the sort of behavior we see daily from our politicians, and even if PAD's idea on electoral system it is not the best proposition, I can't see the mass of Thai population vote in an informed manner and expressing a personal choice for a long time...

if anyone has a better idea, shoot...

oz

Joe, sorry again but your premise that attacking people with lethal weapons is an acceptable way to disperse a crowd (that had been given no legal order to disperse) is asinine!

If you want a link that would be good reading for you and quotes Thailand's most respected and independent FORENSICS EXPERT as well as including quotes from a very important person in Thailand you should look at this.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=131399

If their intent was to kill people why did they also us US made tear gas that worked as intended. My premise is that the China tear gas was faulty and did not work as intended. I would hold the Police at fault for not testing the product and it seems their was inadequate training. The people breaking the law are also at fault for breaking the law and taking on the police. Both are at fault. To think the PAD had nothing to do with making the police use force is asinane!!

It was caught on video, but more over, they kept it up for HOURS on end.

It was on TV showing severed limbs, and they STILL kept up for hours more.

It was intentional and if you have seen the videos,

that IS beyond a reasonable thinking persons dispute.

Not to mention the findings of both comittees, and Dr. Portip's findings.

I know there are some here who prefer dogma to reason,

and pedantry to logic, and Thaksinomics to rational thought

And what they already like to know to scientific findings.

I'm sure some day we can find you a Darwin Award to fit.

.

So the police in the middle of an mob while being assulted were watching TV. After watching TV while being assulted saw it and then kept it up for hours? Any reasonable person would not think someone in the middle of mayhem while being assulted by an illegal mob resisting arrest would be aware or have the full view of what was on the TV. If someone can do this they deserve the Darwin Award.

Do you think the police knew the cheap China tear gas would kill people and wanted that outcome.

It's part of their training to know what the effect of the equipment has.

Failure to do so makes them responsible for the outcome.

Oh, and so you know, the first teargas grenade was captured on film and it's effect was clearly visible. Anyone with any training whatsoever handling the [less lethal] weapons could see what was happening. Are you saying the police is so poorly trained they cannot even put two and two together and understand the risk of firing explosive teargas grenades directly at people? Perhaps then it isn't only training that is lacking, apparently atleast one digit of IQ...

I agree with you that their training was bad and the China tear gas canisters should have been tested and for this they are at fault. I think it is a little much to imply that their intent was to kill people.

Again, please direct me to a specific area where it clearly states that this young woman broke the law by taking over Parliament. Your claim that she was a lawbreaker is absolute rubbish and there is nothing to support your claim reagarding the young girl in question.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=131152 Here is the support to show your claim is rubbish. Or maybe you think siegeing Parliament and erecting barricades is lawful.

Exactly.... This is how things are in Australia, USA, Korea, Japan and other democratic governments. I dont see why police should not do their job like elsewhere. PAD are taking over buses, buildings not to mention the vast damage they cause each time they go on their merry protests. It makes me wonder how PAD apologists dont admit that PAD are treated that they are above the law.

Please provide some evidence where the police in Australia or the USA have fired military spec tear-gas in vast quantities killing random people.

500,000 people protested in Los Angeles recently and wow! No RDX loaded tear-gas was used!

I am neither denying OR accepting that legit PAD elements hijacked busses, but will concede they in fact did if that bears out!

Tell us all about the "vast damage they cause each time they go on their merry protests"!

But you are right a quick google of "police kill protesters" gives this ...

Pakistani police say they have shot dead at least six people during protests against military operations in the north-western area of Swat.

More than a dozen others were injured when police opened fire on hundreds of protesters in the city of Mingora.

Police say they fired to prevent banks being looted. Locals are angry at army shelling which they say killed five people in the area earlier this week.

Police in Kenya shot 10 people dead today as protests against the disputed re-election of President Mwai Kibaki continued, reports said.

Raila Odinga, the leader of the opposition Orange Democratic movement (ODM), said seven of his supporters had been killed in the capital, Nairobi. An eyewitness said a further three people were shot in Kisumu.

The reported deaths came on the second of three days of planned demonstrations by the ODM.

"Today, seven people have been killed in Kasarani constituency," Odinga told Reuters. "Police are shooting innocent civilians at will ... the government has turned this country into a killing field of innocents."

Police in Nepal opened fire on protesters demonstrating against the rule of the king, killing at least three. Thousands of Nepalis had defied a curfew in Kathmandu and other cities and took to the streets to demand King Gyanendra give up the absolute powers he seized last year.

Nowhere in the first 8 pages of results was a Developed Nation's police involved in killing people to end a protest.

in fact ... there was one story about concern that Canadian sold weapons in the hands of police in PNG killed protesters!

These people were using guns meaning to kill. To say the Thai Police were doing the same is pure propaganda. The tear gas used by the police bought from the USA worked as intended the cheap China crap did not. To say they wanted to kill the protesters is foolish. At the rate you are going you could work for George Bush to justify the WMD's.

[

- The young girl killed by the teargas grenade was unarmed. Probably was so several of the others with maimed legs and feet, or atleast one couldn't see any weapons from the footage by the news crews.

These things happen to people that break the law and defy the police. If anyone is at fault it is the PAD for brainwashing these people into getting killed and hurt. If anything the PAD has blood on their hands for using these vulnerable people as pawns in their personal war. The police were doing their job. The people hurt were breaking the law. Quit trying to make the bad guys (PAD) the victims.

Oh, you automatically assume she was breaking the law, so deserved to die.

Being there doesn't mean you are breaking the law.

There is not one shred of evidense that she did anything, but give moral support and watch.

ALL people are vulnerable to malicious attack from armed attackers.

Sorry the Police way over reacted, didn't have the right ordinance, didn't know who to use it properly,

used it maliciously and continued to used it maliciously after surrounding the group and preventing their exit.

You apologizing for the police's actions on Oct 7th is pathetic. I've seen the videos and it is indefensible carnage.

Do you think the police knew the cheap China tear gas would kill people and wanted that outcome. What happened on Oct. 7th went wrong but do you think that was their intent? Things can go wrong (and did) in a mob. If you are not trying to ubstruct the government and are going about your daily life at home and let the court system work these things should not happen to you.

[

- The young girl killed by the teargas grenade was unarmed. Probably was so several of the others with maimed legs and feet, or atleast one couldn't see any weapons from the footage by the news crews.

These things happen to people that break the law and defy the police. If anyone is at fault it is the PAD for brainwashing these people into getting killed and hurt. If anything the PAD has blood on their hands for using these vulnerable people as pawns in their personal war. The police were doing their job. The people hurt were breaking the law. Quit trying to make the bad guys (PAD) the victims.

What law did the young girl break who was killed by a bomb? I can't seem to find anywhere that she had defied the police either.

Taking over the Parliament and not letting the government go to work is not breaking the law?? Maybe you are right? This might be your lawful right as a Thai citizen.