JonnyF

a new "N250",

But why would anyone buy one of those when they can get an ABS cbr250r with say, a remus or other quality brand pipe, and a set of quality tyres for the same price?

Hmmm let me see.

The Ninja has higher top end, superior handling, not f-ugly like the CBR, quicker from 50-60kph upwards, doesn't sound like a sewing machine, fantastic after sales service, not every Somchai in Bangkok has one - there's lots of reasons someone might opt for a Ninja. Some people choose bikes based on more than just the price tag.

If I was buying now I'd get a 650 before I even looked at either 250. When I bought in 2008 that choice wasn't there but 3 years with the lil' Ninja has been a joy. I have a moped to go shopping on.

I'm not convinced that photo of the 2012 model is genuine..

Concur.

Ok, ok, I admit I make it...but...I read from a supposed reliable source that the 2012 Ninja 650R will have more torque, better suspension, and a stepped seat, but that is all this source knew. I bet it will end up looking just like this pic.

Good effort Let's hope the real one looks like that - looks good.

Seat looks much better, looks the same as the 250 but I wonder if it's a bit more padded because passengers on my 250 often complain that the seat is too small and too hard. The rider's seat isn't the most comfortable either but you get used to it.

I'd have thought the 2011 style seat was better suited to sports touring than this style but then I haven't sat on the 2012 yet.

I'm guessing the other changes/improvements are minimal.

I'm guessing they'll do the same with the ER6n?

Riding a motorcycle is dangerous enough without blocking the sounds around you. Many times some idiot driver sneaks up behind me, beeps his horn and shoots around me even when there is traffic coming. He expects me to get off the road so he can pass.

Do you really think it is safe to wear sound blocking earplugs?

In and around town I wouldn't wear them either, but on long trips when the speed increases then you can't hear anything other than wind anyway so I don't think it's dangerous. If something is coming up behind me when I'm at my usual cruising speed then I see them in my mirrors long before they have a chance to beep at me. Using mirrors (with a blind spot mirror) and looking over your shoulder before changing your line is much safer than relying on hearing in my opinion, especially at higher speeds.

I agree with the previous poster that it can help concentration on a long journey as well.

How much would it cost to change the exhaust on the versys to fold up on the side- just so i could safely ride during rainy reason- not in the flood but when it rains hard it is almost impossible to find a dry road home...

Tony- since you sell the parts- how long time would it take to put them on? And price?

I will buy the bike in september... And i need the exhaust a little higher than standard...

Any advice and help would be greatly welcomed-

I think you're worrying about nothing. If the bike couldn't ride in heavy rain that would be a major design flaw which would have been sorted by now. I think Kawasaki know what they're doing enough that it wont' break down when it rains hard, otherwise they'd have moved the pipe as you're planning to do.

I guess he meant when the roads are actually flooded. I doubt they'd flood enough to give the V problems. But if you're thinking about river crossings and so on, probably a good idea to get a pipe fitted to it... there was a picture of an ADV conversion Versys somewhere in this forum, it had the high exhaust.

Stock, the Versys is meant for the road but probably way easier to convert to an adventure bike than, say... a harley. Separate post on that

Hmmm, he said "not in the flood but when it rains hard" which makes me think it's everyday riding on the roads around Phuket that he's worried about. I agree it's a bit of a weird design for an all-purpose bike that could potentially be ridden in the rough stuff, across rivers etc then maybe the low exhaust would be a problem. But heavy rain on a few back roads on Phuket? I'd have thought the bike would be in it's element in that type of environment. My Nouvo never broke down in 2 years/16000 kms of Phuket rain, semi-flooded roads, mud, hills, potholes etc so I'd be amazed if the Versys had problems on the same roads.

I'm guessing one of the chop shops could fabricate something, wouldn't recommend it though.

I had my first experience of the new CBR150 yesterday, I'd ridden the old one but not the new model. I'm not a big fan of the little CBR's but I was quite impressed. A Philippino guy who I know in my building has one and he was helping me service the gsxr when we needed a few things so he ran me up the road and I rode it back.

Engine feels nice and solid, not fast but quite nippy through traffic, kind of reminded me of a Suzuki Raider or Honda Sonic engine-wise. Gearbox is very smooth and I liked the dashboard and the general size and feel. The old one felt too light/narrow and I wouldn't like to ride it over 100-110 kph but the new one feels much more planted/solid. Looks wise it's in a different league to the old model which I found pretty hideous to look at (just personal opinion - no offence intended). The riding position was pretty nice as well. Looks like it would be a great town bike, we're planning a ride in the next few weeks so I'm guessing he'll ride the Ninja a few kms and I'll ride the CBR and see how it feels on the highway but for 80k (or whatever it is) it's a nice solid traffic beater,

How much would it cost to change the exhaust on the versys to fold up on the side- just so i could safely ride during rainy reason- not in the flood but when it rains hard it is almost impossible to find a dry road home...

Tony- since you sell the parts- how long time would it take to put them on? And price?

I will buy the bike in september... And i need the exhaust a little higher than standard...

Any advice and help would be greatly welcomed-

I think you're worrying about nothing. If the bike couldn't ride in heavy rain that would be a major design flaw which would have been sorted by now. I think Kawasaki know what they're doing enough that it wont' break down when it rains hard, otherwise they'd have moved the pipe as you're planning to do.

Oops, posted from my phone and just re-read my post. Meant to say that a pit bull is an American Bull Terrier (or Staffordshire Terrier). The pictured dog is, of course, an English Bull Terrier.

Even spells 'color' with an extra 'u' ...

Sorry.

You should re-read this post as well, because the Staffordshire Terrier is not a pit bull, it's a Staffordshire (Bull) Terrier

Or maybe just better to stop posting about breeds you clearly know nothing about.

i can say that because he said "Ninja 250 wins by a hair in nearly all tests (acceleration, top speed, braking)" which it did.........The Honda won on some other tests.

Jeeze even after all these pages you guys STILL haven't figured out what this test has in black and white.

IF you want a very good all round bike, good comfort etc and the option of ABS then the CBR250 is the one.

IF you want a bike for all round use BUT also a bit more sporty/track oriented then the Ninja is the one.

i PERSONALLY prefer the Honda CBR for what i believe is a better riders position for every day riding (at least for me) and the ability to transport a pillion in comfort/safety.

ps The comments on the suspension of the CBR are a little unsettling as i also noted them.eg slightly harsh. i wonder if the front forks are set up correctly oil weight/ quantity. Or in fact do they break in and get smoother.

Correct. For me they're both little sports bikes so if the Ninja is faster 0-60, faster top-end and handles better on the open road then that's the information I'm after from a review. The Honda may be better for commuting in the city, that's great - but if I wanted a comfortable bike to commute with great kpl figures then I'd buy a Honda wave and save 60,000 baht for petrol. Or maybe if I wanted a bike that also "looked" sporty then I'd get the 150 and save 30,000 baht for petrol.

To give the verdict to the CBR would be like comparing two vans and concluding that while van A is more adept at carrying equipment between two given points, we're going to give the nod to van B because van B is more stable off road and quicker on the race track.

I guess you can take what you want to take from the review, but to me it confirms what I've been saying for ages, the Ninja is the better sports bike and the CBR is the better commuter/starter bike.

This is the best review yet,

http://www.mcnews.co...2011Apr250s.pdf

very comprehensive, it covers most of the important aspects, not on sheer performance only.

I agree, the most in-depth review yet which covers pretty much everything.

Guess this thread can be closed now as, apart from a couple of big-bike owners who think they're Max Biaggi, the majority of the vastly experienced motorbike journalists who have compared the two bikes have given their verdict to the CBR

I know whose opinion I'll be listening to

Short memory? Or just selective? I think you've conveniently missed a few reviews by experienced journalists posted right here on this thread. You might want to go back and watch the YouTube reviews a couple of pages back if you've forgotten them already.

Why all the bickering of the cost of these two bikes? Who really cares?

A few thousand baht is nice to save, but the people that can afford these bikes dont care... I have said before- honda has a dealership here in town- kawa does not... That is the deciding item for me... Two good bikes, not very different but enough to pick one above the other... If you cant afford either, get the cbr 150 or stay away from bikes...

What it cost on the other side of the world is not relevant- why? We are not there, we are here... Grow up or move there!

The kawa is sports focused- the cbr is not... Which is better? Hard to say since the small differences makes them aimed at different beginners...

Honda is brilliant since they sell these bikes at all dealerships- kawa should do the same...

Rant is over...

The deciding factor was Honda having a dealership in town and yet you've repeatedly posted about swapping the CBR for a bigger Kawasaki in a few months time? OK

PS this is a forum, if you don't like people debating the pros and cons of the 2 bikes then don't click on the thread any more.

Funny that the OP makes such a big deal about 'sports bikes' having their exhaust changed when I challenge you to find more than a handful of cruisers (especially the quintessential cruiser-Harley) with stock exhausts...

I was one of your handfull. My Yamaha Dragstar XVS1100A was completely bone stock engine and exhaust wise. Lots of extra chrome bling, running lights, rear carrier, engine bling and rechromed spokes on the wheels. It didn't need noise in this case, as there was enough of a throb from the engine & exhaust. The front brakes were massive. Very stable under hard braking. You get used to hard braking in the middle east, believe me.

That's a lovely bike. Very rare I look at a cruiser for more than 2 seconds but I found myself staring at this one. If I lived out in the country I'd buy something like that for sure. Trouble is in Bangkok is that it's too big and heavy for Bangkok traffic. And then when I want to get away to the beach for the weekend it's not gonna be as fast (or as fun) to get there as a sports bike.

I can definitely see me owning one in the next few years though. I'll go for a Jap model like your Yam (or maybe a Kawi Vulcan) or go British and get a Triumph. Can't ever see myself on a Harley though.

I think you're comparing to the US right?. Bikes are notoriously cheap in the US. If you compared to Europe then the Ninja is still pretty good value in LOS. The strength of the baht (or at least the relative weakness of some of our home currencies such as USD, GBP etc) also makes the bike look more expensive here than it really is, you can't expect Kawasaki Thailand to reduce the cost of a bike because expats are dividing the baht price by 30 to decide if it's good value instead of dividing by 40. Plus as you say the spec of the Ninja in the US is lower (carb vs. FI).

Yep, was comparing to the States. Everything is cheaper in the States (well except probably love). However, even though the Ninja was released in 2008, and other than a slight increase it has remained essentially the same price in the States. Since mid 2008 the USD has fallen some 12% against the THB...and yet the Ninja hasn't gone up +12%...has it?

Guess I'm trying to figure out exactly how much 'overpriced' it is in LOS. The lower spec bike sold in the States has stayed the same price and in fact has started to make the dealerships less money, and so why is the slightly higher spec (even though it makes less power according to numerous FI dyno graphs) bike cost so much more?

Yeah it's all relative. When I paid 139,000 for the NInja at around 60 to the pound it was about 2300 pounds in LOS compared to just under 4000 in the UK. Even with the price increase of the Ninja and crash of the pound it's 3000 pounds here compared to 4100 in the UK. The CBR is priced around the same as the Ninja over there which is why I said that the CBR is underpriced here rather then the Ninja being overpriced. The market reaction to the CBR here kind of proves my point (more demand than supply, dealers fleecing customers etc). Of course if you compare Thailand to one of the cheapest countries in the world to buy bikes (who's currency has also recently collapsed) then you can make a case for the Ninja being expensive here, but there's a whole world outside of the US that says the Ninja price here is about right.

Good news if you live in Thailand and like the CBR.

I still don't think that dropping the price of the Ninja to compete with the incredibly low rrp of the CBR (even though it's very tough to buy the CBR at rrp) is a good marketing move considering how Kawasaki have set themselves in the market. It wouldn't make sense to do so.

It obviously made sense to Kawasaki (Australia)!

It might be time for Kawasaki Thailand to drop selling the 250 from their Big Bike Shops and endeavor to move it over to mainstream dealers. After they drop the price of course.

The current price-gouging on the Honda is not a permanent condition.........

Like I said it's a different market to Australia.

If you look at the prices of the 2 bikes elsewhere then I would actually argue that the Honda is under-priced in Thailand rather than the Kawasaki being over-priced. Hence the lack of supply in comparison to the demand, the result being that dealers are quoting well above the RRP and still selling what few bikes they have, making the extra profits themselves at the expense of the reputation of AP Honda. That's Honda's problem not Kawasaki's. Good for the consumers that like the CBR250 though (assuming they can get it within 10k of RRP).

Either we can say the Kawasaki is over-priced since it costs more than it does 1/2 the way around the world (even if you want to make the point about the FI, there's still S&H and import and certification and...) or we can say that the Honda is under-priced since it cost so much less than it does 1/2 the way around the world (a directly comparable situation).

If we're to assume that HondaUSA dealers make 5% on each CBR they sell, and they're paying LOS MSRP, than shipping/fees is some 14 300 THB. If Kawasaki dealers in the States pay the same shipping/fees, and have the same profit margin, that means that they're getting the carb'd Ninja for the same 100 000 THB. Is the fuel injection system on the LOS version really worth 47 000 THB?

I think you're comparing to the US right?. Bikes are notoriously cheap in the US. If you compared to Europe then the Ninja is still pretty good value in LOS. The strength of the baht (or at least the relative weakness of some of our home currencies such as USD, GBP etc) also makes the bike look more expensive here than it really is, you can't expect Kawasaki Thailand to reduce the cost of a bike because expats are dividing the baht price by 30 to decide if it's good value instead of dividing by 40. Plus as you say the spec of the Ninja in the US is lower (carb vs. FI).

I still don't think that dropping the price of the Ninja to compete with the incredibly low rrp of the CBR (even though it's very tough to buy the CBR at rrp) is a good marketing move considering how Kawasaki have set themselves in the market. It wouldn't make sense to do so.

It obviously made sense to Kawasaki (Australia)!

It might be time for Kawasaki Thailand to drop selling the 250 from their Big Bike Shops and endeavor to move it over to mainstream dealers. After they drop the price of course.

The current price-gouging on the Honda is not a permanent condition.........

Like I said it's a different market to Australia.

If you look at the prices of the 2 bikes elsewhere then I would actually argue that the Honda is under-priced in Thailand rather than the Kawasaki being over-priced. Hence the lack of supply in comparison to the demand, the result being that dealers are quoting well above the RRP and still selling what few bikes they have, making the extra profits themselves at the expense of the reputation of AP Honda. That's Honda's problem not Kawasaki's. Good for the consumers that like the CBR250 though (assuming they can get it within 10k of RRP).

I've got a black Komine mesh jacket. It's not too bad for heat but obviously having a black jacket on isn't ideal when it's 35 degrees and sunny. I wouldn't buy another black one to be honest, different colours don't attract the heat and also look better IMO.

Kawasaki Australia has dropped the price of the Ninja 250 by A$1500 and are still more expensive than the CBR250.

Approximately Bt.45,000.

This was inevitable in those markets where there is a significant price differential between the two bikes.

Kawasaki Thailand must respond as well or end up with a lot of unsold machines, yes?

I doubt it, the market's a bit different here. Look at the popularity of Mini Coopers despite the crazy price tag. EVERY girl in my office wants one, if they were priced the same as a Vios and every Bangkok condo had 20 of them in the car park then i don't think this would be the case. Kawasaki don't realistically expect sales to be anywhere near the Honda no matter what the price was. I don't think dropping the price by 30-40,000 baht to compete with the super cheap Honda would be a good move.

Yes, the Thai market certainly is different! Fewer sales require raising the price!

But seriously, if the two bikes had an insignificant price differential, Kawasaki has a better chance to shine. This should make the Ninja supporters happy. And why wouldn't Kawasaki Thailand want to increase their market share?

The Mini Cooper analogy isn't a good one, because it is an imported model versus a domestic model. The people who can afford the Mini know everyone else knows it's expensive, so added "face". The two motorcycles are both domestic models.

The Honda is only super cheap in relation to the Kawasaki here in Thailand. In America they are the same price. Unless you want the nice paint job with the cool graphics, then Kawasaki charges a few hundred dollars more. Or if you want ABS, then Honda charges a few hundred dollars more.

I don't think the Ninja supporters really care how many they sell. If my Ninja is one of just a few on the road vs. hundreds of CBR's then that's fine by me. I've never seen another gsxr600 in Thailand either, I'm sure they exist but I've never seen one in the flesh (seen a few gsxr1000's) and it's irrelevant to me. The only issue is that I know i have to import parts when I need them so I order them a couple of months in advance and it's never caused me a problem.

I think the Mini analogy is valid, the reason people want them is because they are expensive and rare (exclusive) compared to the hordes of Vios' and Honda City's filling Thailand's carparks - not because they are imported (although clearly they are expensive because they are imported). Look at Triumph, they're made here but they're still expensive due to BOI (and therefore you don't see many of them) which is why they maintain their exclusivity. I'm not saying the Ninja is on the same level as either of these examples because clearly it isn't, but I still don't think that dropping the price of the Ninja to compete with the incredibly low rrp of the CBR (even though it's very tough to buy the CBR at rrp) is a good marketing move considering how Kawasaki have set themselves in the market. It wouldn't make sense to do so.

Kawasaki Australia has dropped the price of the Ninja 250 by A$1500 and are still more expensive than the CBR250.

Approximately Bt.45,000.

This was inevitable in those markets where there is a significant price differential between the two bikes.

Kawasaki Thailand must respond as well or end up with a lot of unsold machines, yes?

I doubt it, the market's a bit different here. Look at the popularity of Mini Coopers despite the crazy price tag. EVERY girl in my office wants one, if they were priced the same as a Vios and every Bangkok condo had 20 of them in the car park then i don't think this would be the case. Kawasaki don't realistically expect sales to be anywhere near the Honda no matter what the price was. I don't think dropping the price by 30-40,000 baht to compete with the super cheap Honda would be a good move.

250

It's a brand new design, it has great handling (need to replace the rather slippery stock tires though), it looks much better.

The 15k extra for ABS is well worth it too if you can find one at a dealer for the recommended sales price. 15k might seem like a lot, but if it prevents you from slipping your front tire even once, it prevents a crash, and saves you much more in hospital bills and so on. I am loving the ABS on my bike and I'd never buy one without. It's saved me a few times already, most notably that one time as I was going too fast in a corner on the Pai - CM road, I wasn't going to make it, I was en route to crashing into the mountain... the road was wet, with dirt and leaves on it; I hit the brakes as hard as I could, and the bike, almost magically, stopped safely. I had no idea it's possible to have that much grip on the wet, dirty road.

As for the dealer prices to come down - it's only a matter of time, Honda factories are cranking these out, and at some point they'll catch up with demand and the prices will drop.

I know some people have been riding 150s for years and years but I think it's likely you'll get bored with it, then trade it in for a 250 soon. If you can afford it, get the 250.

115k for this bike is a killer price.

It's interesting that you prefer the looks of the 250. Do you prefer the silver rims and the exhaust? Or the paint schemes? Or the tubular frame? I know looks are subjective but I just can't see it on this one. Which aspect of the 250 do you prefer?

As for ABS, I'd agree that it's a useful emergency option, but if you come to rely on it (i.e. it's saving you a few times per year) then it's probably time to back it down a bit because sooner or later those extra milliseconds that it gives you won't be enough. I know that if the ABS on my car was regularly kicking in (none of my bikes have it) then I'd start wondering why I was locking up the wheel so often and adjust my driving/riding technique.

If I was in the OP position I would buy the 150 for the following reasons.

1. It's cheaper to buy and cheaper to run.

2. You don't have to go to NST (or wherever) to find a dealer who is only fleecing you by 10% over rrp.

3. It looks better, not sure if it's the black rims, the colour schemes (the tri-color looks fantastic), the exhaust (the 250 exhaust reminds me of a massive joint, err I mean traffic cone) or the big-bike frame, but it just looks better to me.

4. The dealers will be more experienced with the bike, it's a new model same as the 250 is - but it's based on a tried and tested bike that's been in Thailand for years - I'm guessing Honda didn't change anything they didn't have to except making it greener via EFI. The guys selling the 250 probably haven't even split the engine yet.

5. For the use you stated it is more than adequate. I've ridden Phuket-Ranong and back on a Nouvo in a day so I'm sure that BKK-Pattaya or BKK-Hua Hin will be fine on the 150.

6. It will be lighter and easier around town, which as you state is the majority of your riding.

Both bikes will be good for you, enjoy it either way - but the 150 might be the better option IMO.

The cheapest and easiest way would be to change the sprockets, maybe go down a couple of teeth at the rear. If the bikes power can't handle the change in gearing then you could replace the exhaust with an aftermarket exhaust to free it up a little bit. Or play around with the carb.

In my opinion it's really not worth doing much else, the money you'll spend won't be worth it in terms of the difference it makes to the bike's performance. Better off selling it and getting a similar sized 2 stroke like an NSR150, or the Kawasaki/Yamaha (KRR/TZM) equivalent as JBeck suggested. Much easier/simpler/cheaper to mod a 2 stroke, especially in Thailand.

The New ZX10r is only for the extensively experienced rider. Too many ponies in them for public roads.

That Z1000 is nice, I'd rather see the 2011 ZX10R though. Anyone know if it's going to be at the show or subsequently sold over here?

The show starts on Friday (25th) I think.

Not really. Every bike I've been on only goes as fast as you turn the throttle, you can always use the clutch or change up a gear. Plus the ZX10R has adjustable power modes which can reduce the hp down to around 100hp at the click of a switch, reducing it to pretty much the same power as my gsxr600 which is perfectly manageable around Bangkok even in heavy traffic.

I'd be quite interested to see that 0-60 time split into 2 sections (maybe it has been already). 0-30 and 30-60. My guess is that the CBR would be quicker 0-30 but 30-60 would be about even depending on whether that involved an extra gear change on either bike.

I think the 0-60 time is also the most dependent on rider skill of all the tests. Not sure how aggressive the testers have been but to get the quickest time out of the Ninja you'd have to be super aggressive, and I mean hold the thing wide open bouncing off the rev limiter before dumping the clutch (leaning over the tank might be a good idea!). That would limit the time it spent at low rpm. The CBR would be a little more forgiving to a less aggressive style if both bikes pulled away relatively sedately.

I think they meant that it's slower to accelerate above that speed, not that it couldn't. It's one of the trade-offs having a lot of mid range power that trails off up top, when you're already in top gear you can't shift up any more to get the engine back down into the meat of the powerband. The Ninja having it's peak power higher in the rev range suffers less from this at highway speeds, as confirmed by the reviewers.

I would agree that someone with 3 months riding experience would be far better suited to a CBR with ABS that the Ninja 250R. That's not some snide dig either, it's just my honest opinion.

The Ninja really is quite a quick bike if you keep it in the 9-10k rpm range. It's quick enough to bite you if you don't know what you're doing. For the guys that started off riding Waves and Autos when they first moved to Thailand and now want something bigger/cooler - the CBR is a good choice especially due to the low price here and ABS option.