ManInSurat

Controversially!!!!!..............I agree for now.................however!!!!.................complacency will undo Thailand.

In the medium to long term Burma will build the infrastructure required to damage Thai tourism, that will take time though. Thailand should be using that time to ensure that they are giving better customer service and a better product to tourists, in preparation for certain competition.

We know that's what they should be doing, we also know there is no chance of Thailand doing that. There will be trouble ahead.

Also the service that is available in Thailand will become harder to find as The Burmese return to their homeland. There will be a large shortage of workers. For every two Burmese that leave the work force they will need three to replace them. Maybe 4

Yes it will take time for the Burmese to get set up but in the mean time Thailand will do nothing to prepare for it.

Not to mention the cost of having to pay a Thai the legal minimum wage, compared to what the Burmese get.

That's quite a good point mate. It's not like they can draw on migrant workers from other places in the region either. The Burmese are their last "modern day slave labourers" to use some artistic lisence.

Also when you start to have all the menial jobs in your country taken over by underpaid migrant workers, your own population starts to become disinterested in that job and views it as "beneath" them.

It's going to be analogous to the Mexicans flooding back over the border from Arizona, New Mexico and the southern states, leaving crops unpicked and large corporations out of pocket.

I can see that happening, maybe not for a while, but it's a definite possibility.

To be honest, as a falang woman considering visiting Phuket in November, I did watch it. Not to be disrespectful of the women or their families, but to see what I need to be watching out for. I couldn't quite tell how she was wearing her purse strap from that clip. Was it slung over one shoulder, or did she have it slung across her chest? Does that make a difference for these purse snatchers?

I don't think you're being disrespectful. It was aired on Austrailian TV, someone mentioned in this thread (perhaps in an edited form, I don't know.) Also another person mentioned that if leads came from the CCTV and from a member of the public, the fact it was publicly aired could have led to the arrests.

If you're genuinely worried and you did say considering, perhaps look to Krabi - Ao Nang and Koh Lanta specifically - instead. It's my second home away from Surat Thani and it's so pretty and calm. They have the full range of budget, mid and high-end resorts and there's an never ending array of things to do there. A lot of the day tours out of Phuket are also visitied by tourists in the Krabi area too. Phi Phi being a great example of that.

Krabi does have its very isolated criminal incidents, but attacks of this nature are incredibly rare.

Plus you can get there easily from Phuket airport. It's the same coast and sea. It's culturally identical and plus you'd get to see the old indegenous Chao Lae (or Sea Gypsy) in the Krabi and Lanta areas, not to mention the lovely Muslim community there.

Maybe look to the areas of Phuket away from Patong and Phuket City, somewhere like Kata or Karon if you have your heart set on Phuket.

Just a suggestion.

KaiserSoze's advice is spot on though, if you do decide to go.

Please don't get me started on Krabi... A good friend of mine was badly injured and could have been killed by a motorbike bag snatch attempt in Ao Nang about a year ago. Since the bag strap did not rupture, these f$#%ers first pulled her off the bike and then dragged her along for several meters. I could also tell you what religious orientation the majority of locals there have and what kind of mindset they run, but in times where everything and anything one says could be flamed for not being politically correct, I leave it to your imagination / research abilities...

It boils down to the fact that as a foreigner in Krabi, to the locals you basically are a kind of hybrid; half pig, half ATM machine. If you want with maximum effort achieve as little as possible, then go to Krabi or Lanta (same, same, but different...).

Your intimation that people of a specific religion are more likely to commit a crime is inflammatory, even if you do act chicken and don't say what you actually mean.

FYI the agricultural industry is predominantly the main sector that the religious minority work in there. Prawn farming and squid/prawn fishing are the primary empolyers of Muslims if that's what you're implying.

I am married to a Muslim Thai. I speak fluent Thai, some Dai and some Pali/Malay. I've visited her 13 strong siblings and other family members in all corners of Thailand. I know their culture extremely well. I find if you conduct yourself with dignity and don't come across as rude and ingorant to their cultural sensitivites, you won't be treated badly.

As for your comment about the ATM machine. You could say that about any place in South-East Asia many places in Eastern Europe, Eurasia, Central Asia, most of South and Central America, most of Africa and most of the Middle East.

I've been visiting Ao Nang for over 10 years, I have a house there and it's nowhere near as dangerous as you're painting it. It does have isolated incidents of crime. It has nowhere near the rate of violent crime on tourists as Phuket. It is very quiet.

I'm sorry your friend had a bad experience but there's no way you can say it's a violent place where that kind of thing happens every day. That's pure make believe and untrue.

To be honest, as a falang woman considering visiting Phuket in November, I did watch it. Not to be disrespectful of the women or their families, but to see what I need to be watching out for. I couldn't quite tell how she was wearing her purse strap from that clip. Was it slung over one shoulder, or did she have it slung across her chest? Does that make a difference for these purse snatchers?

I don't think you're being disrespectful. It was aired on Australian TV, someone mentioned in this thread (perhaps in an edited form, I don't know.) Also another person mentioned that if leads came from the CCTV and from a member of the public, the fact it was publicly aired could have led to the arrests.

If you're genuinely worried and you did say considering, perhaps look to Krabi - Ao Nang and Koh Lanta specifically - instead. It's my second home away from Surat Thani and it's so pretty and calm. They have the full range of budget, mid and high-end resorts and there's an never ending array of things to do there. A lot of the day tours out of Phuket are also visitied by tourists in the Krabi area too. Phi Phi being a great example of that.

Krabi does have its very isolated criminal incidents, but attacks of this nature are incredibly rare.

Plus you can get there easily from Phuket airport. It's the same coast and sea. It's culturally identical and plus you'd get to see the old indigenous Chao Lae (or Sea Gypsy) in the Krabi and Lanta areas, not to mention the lovely Muslim community there.

Maybe look to the areas of Phuket away from Patong and Phuket City, somewhere like Kata or Karon if you have your heart set on Phuket.

Just a suggestion.

KeyserSoze1's advice is spot on though, if you do decide to go.

Whether or not the 'justice system' has the right culprits, they will probably force a re-enactment. If innocents are forced to do a re-enactment (supposing they haven't seen the video), they might botch it up. Either way, there will probably be a death sentence in the offing, with the provision of changing it to 'life sentence' if the suspect(s) plead guilty and show some remorse. The result is, in Thailand, sometimes innocents plead 'guilty' - because they hope to get their sentences commuted from 'death' to 'life in prison.'

It baffles me how anybody can beg for the death penalty. Many of those who demand the death penalty repeatedly complain that the BIB and Thai justice system are flawed, and rightfully so. If you get framed and people call for you to be put to death, you will beg again, this time that there is someone to stand up for you. Moreover, no matter how horrific this case is, it is a typical case of manslaughter, not premeditated murder. Can't see how a competent judge in any country would pronounce the death sentence for those two fatal stabs.

There are several cases we don't hear about anymore. Example: the girl who had her arm hacked off by off-duty cops. Also: the Irish young man killed, and farang woman who were both shot by a cop in Pai. Plus, what happened to the cop who shot and killed one (or both?) of a farang couple in Kanchanburi(?) in a jealous rage? Last we heard, he was locked up, but then let out the back door by his cop buddies, when no one was watching.

If anyone has updates on any of those mentioned in the paragraph above, please let us know, thanks.

Doing some reasearch on the Katherine Horton murder on Samui in 2007 and I found out they were given the death sentence and this was commuted to life in prison, not as a guilty plea bargain, but after they'd been put on death row.

"Two fishermen, Wichai Somkhaoyai, 24, and Bualoi Posit, 23, were condemned to death, but their sentences were commuted to life in jail after appeal."

Here's the BBC article.

It's hard to find a case of them actually carrying out an execution for this type of crime anywhere. It seems that reduced sentencing on appeal and when entering the plea is commonplace.

Is that what'll happen here? Who knows.

Perhaps knowing you're not going to die if you do commit these heinous crimes has a factor in the rate of increase?

If this had happened in say, Texas, a Texan (or anyone) murdering a Thai, would they be given the death sentence? You know if they were it'd be carried out. I'm not trying to compare the 2 countries, but reinforce the point that for it to act as a deterrent, you actually need to carry it out.

We all know that the Thai prison life can be very comfortable if you have money or someone has a vested interest in you.

If the police caught the actual bad guys , good for them. Normally these high profile cases are solved in three days, so they did run over by one day...... But before the government starts slapping itself on the back, breathes a sigh of relief, and starts predicting the return of massive amounts of tourists, here is something to keep in mind.

A tourist WAS murdered in a nice area of Phuket. Therefor the danger exists for anyone there as a tourist. Catching the bad guys alters NOTHING as regards the danger level of Phuket. It makes the police feel good, and certainly provides closure for the family members. But the other travel agents who are still alive are going back to Australia and tell everyone to stay the hell away from Phuket....

Why all the sensationalism? Random acts of violence do occur in places other than Phuket. I was recently at my home in Santa Cruz California and there was such an act. A homeless man from San Francisco with no ties whatsoever to Santa Cruz, stabbed to death a woman he didn't know in broad daylight for no apparent reason. She was just walking down the street near her home. It was the only murder there this year. It seems like many members of TV just love the chance to slam Phuket any opportunity they get...

Random? The lady was stabbed for her bag in a premeditated attack. Alright he may have not gone in with the intention of stabbing anyone, but he also probably didn't expect the lady to fight back. His reaction was to stab her when she did fight back. The reason = money and they targeted 2 ladies alone.

Phuket doesn't have one murder a year. You're not even taking into account all the "suicides" that happen either. The murder rate is much much higher than is officially documented.

Sure, all large cities and massive metroplises have high murder rates, that's to be expect. Phuket's tiny in comparison with a small population.

I think it's quite rose-tinted to say there's not a problem and people can't highligh this fact.

I think he made a valid point. In virtually all of these cases those responsible do not hail from Phuket, they are always from a different province.

If there is an issue, it's an issue across Thais and not limited to Phuket. It's sad but tourist areas attract the less desirable elements of society, why? You hit the nail on the head, money, big fat tourist $$$s and the richest pickings are in Phuket.

I'm sorry but clearly it wasn't a premeditated assault, it was a thoughtless, bungled robbery. The victims fought back and the guy reacted with his knife, probably as much out of fear as anything else. It's a tragedy, but clearly the motive was robbery.

You are being naive if you think these problems are solely in Phuket. Crime is on the increase, nationally, the issue is much larger and has more to do with a general lack of law enforcement, massive disparity between the rich and poor, increasing drug problem and increasing lack of morality in the younger generations coming through... IMO

I didn't say it was solely in Phuket at any point.

Come from other provinces? Well they happened in Phuket. Are people in other places in danger of violence that occurs in Phuket?

I already said I was wrong about the Swede.

I did say it was a premeditated robbery and not murder. If you watch the video, the second the lady resist, he stabs her. Yes it's bungled, that's very clear to see.

I did also say that he may have not had the intention of stabbing anyone or whether he had form. No one can say that. He could have stabbed lots of people before.

I'm not being naive, I'm simply trying to explain that for a comparatively low population it has a high murder rate. A very high suicide rate and violent crime on tourists is increasing.

All tourist areas in the world do not have to be dangerous for tourists. There's many places that aren't. I can think of thousands and in LEDCs too.

Yes, there are incidences of murder all over Thailand, probably lots and lots every day, but I'd imagine they'd be Thai on non-farang. It's the murder rate of Thai on farang that's in question here.

The fact Chalern came out and promised to clean up Phuket the other day would indicate to me that there's a problem there. Would you not say?

The fact another tourist has been murdered in Phuket is going to put it in the spotlight and it appears to be in the spotlight an awful lot recently.

If the police caught the actual bad guys , good for them. Normally these high profile cases are solved in three days, so they did run over by one day...... But before the government starts slapping itself on the back, breathes a sigh of relief, and starts predicting the return of massive amounts of tourists, here is something to keep in mind.

A tourist WAS murdered in a nice area of Phuket. Therefor the danger exists for anyone there as a tourist. Catching the bad guys alters NOTHING as regards the danger level of Phuket. It makes the police feel good, and certainly provides closure for the family members. But the other travel agents who are still alive are going back to Australia and tell everyone to stay the hell away from Phuket....

Why all the sensationalism? Random acts of violence do occur in places other than Phuket. I was recently at my home in Santa Cruz California and there was such an act. A homeless man from San Francisco with no ties whatsoever to Santa Cruz, stabbed to death a woman he didn't know in broad daylight for no apparent reason. She was just walking down the street near her home. It was the only murder there this year. It seems like many members of TV just love the chance to slam Phuket any opportunity they get...

Random? The lady was stabbed for her bag in a premeditated attack. Alright he may have not gone in with the intention of stabbing anyone, but he also probably didn't expect the lady to fight back. His reaction was to stab her when she did fight back. The reason = money.

The Swede murderd by a gang of 12 Thais outside his house? Boung with cable ties and stabbed, for his laptop, money and valuables. Money motivated and a robbery.

The Australian stabbed on his bike, by the 2 Thai youths, a couple of months ago for ฿300. He didn't die, but he easily could have. Why? Money.

It's not someone having a psychotic episode, they're violent robberies. In a place that never used to have them. The rate of murder and violent crime is definitely going up. Can't you see that?

Phuket doesn't have one murder a year. You're not even taking into account all the "suicides" that happen either. The murder rate is much much higher than is officially documented.

Sure, all large cities and massive metroplises have high murder rates, that's to be expect. Phuket's tiny in comparison with a small population.

I think it's quite rose-tinted to say there's not a problem and people can't highligh this fact.

There was never a Swede murdered by twelve Thais. It turned out to be a murder by his business partners in Pataya that tracked him to Phuket and killed him. They were also Swedes! If you are going follow me around the forum and post, at least be informed.

Take your paranoia pills dear. I'm not following you. The fact it's newsworthy item and I'm responding to it is purely coincidental. It's a forum. You know where you can respond to other members opinions and have a debate. If you want it to be just you and your opinion, it'd be a lonley place. If you don't want people to question and try to debate your opinion, do not put it in a public place.

I'll gladly not bother to quote you or answer anything you say in future as you seem to not be able to be reasonable. It's a shame as I like challenging other people's idea and opinions. It can be healthy. It can also be the ultimate exercise in futility, sadly.

I am wrong about the Swede. Thank you for informing and I stand corrected. I've read up on it now. I should have informed myself better.

I'm not going to stop posting my opinion about Phuket when I think what I'm saying is true.

You still haven't addressed the notion that it wasn't random. That they're money-motivated violent robberies, that there's more than one of them and that the rate is increasing. Or the amazing rate at which people commit suicide there. And most importantly that tourists are being targeted.

You seem to be seeing an alternate reality and I can't work out why.

If the police caught the actual bad guys , good for them. Normally these high profile cases are solved in three days, so they did run over by one day...... But before the government starts slapping itself on the back, breathes a sigh of relief, and starts predicting the return of massive amounts of tourists, here is something to keep in mind.

A tourist WAS murdered in a nice area of Phuket. Therefor the danger exists for anyone there as a tourist. Catching the bad guys alters NOTHING as regards the danger level of Phuket. It makes the police feel good, and certainly provides closure for the family members. But the other travel agents who are still alive are going back to Australia and tell everyone to stay the hell away from Phuket....

Why all the sensationalism? Random acts of violence do occur in places other than Phuket. I was recently at my home in Santa Cruz California and there was such an act. A homeless man from San Francisco with no ties whatsoever to Santa Cruz, stabbed to death a woman he didn't know in broad daylight for no apparent reason. She was just walking down the street near her home. It was the only murder there this year. It seems like many members of TV just love the chance to slam Phuket any opportunity they get...

Random? The lady was stabbed for her bag in a premeditated attack. Alright he may have not gone in with the intention of stabbing anyone, but he also probably didn't expect the lady to fight back. His reaction was to stab her when she did fight back. The reason = money and they targeted 2 ladies alone.

The Swede murderd by a gang of 12 Thais outside his house in full view of his neighbors? Bound with cable ties, slashed and stabbed for his laptop, money and valuables. Money motivated and a robbery and extremely brazen.

The Australian stabbed on his bike, by the 2 Thai youths, a couple of months ago for ฿300. He didn't die, but he easily could have. Why? Money.

It's not someone having a psychotic episode, they're violent robberies targeting tourists. In a place that never used to have them. The rate of murder and violent crime is definitely going up. Can't you see that?

Phuket doesn't have one murder a year. You're not even taking into account all the "suicides" that happen either. The murder rate is much much higher than is officially documented.

Sure, all large cities and massive metroplises have high murder rates, that's to be expect. Phuket's tiny in comparison with a small population.

I think it's quite rose-tinted to say there's not a problem and people can't highligh this fact.

I concede that gratuitous bashing is uncalled for and I can be overly critical of places, but don't deny there's a violent crime epidemic. It's been rumbling on this forum for a number of years.

"May be a good idea to find out if it is the right two men first"

Do you really think this matters to the BIB, remember this murder

has the potential to damage Phukets tourist industry. If they are

the murders, I sincerely hope that they are punished to the full

extent of the law.

Unfortunately it happens too often in TH that police take 2 poor suckers who have nothing to do with that crime... Only to show media they acted very fast..... poor guys ( i mean the 2 "victims" )

Do you actually know someone who was framed by the Thai Police to be making wild statements like that or is just sweetie wife heresay?

In a high profile case like this, which has been highly publicised do you honestly think they would take the risk of framing someone? Not a chance in Hell!!

I think they genuinely don't care about who's watching or the publicity for reasons of serving justice correctly.

Do I think they want the whole furore to go away asap to ensure their cash cow isn't badly damaged? Yes, I believe that.

It would make sense to them to make an arrest, secure a conviction and sentence execution to make it blow over as quickly as possible and show that Thailand is dealing with these things in an effective manner so the ฿ keeps pouring in. If you happen to wrongfully execute 1 or 2 young and innocent fellas in the process, well that's breaking a few eggs. Who would know, from the international media that it would be a false conviction? Who'd bother to try and find out and publicise that fact?

I'm assuming it'd be execution as every high-profile Thai on farang murder case I can think of has resulted in execution.

I'm not saying that this is what's going to happen now. That would be myopic. There's no proof, no detailed evidence either way of these being the people in that CCTV footage. Let's see what they show the waiting media. We coud be surprised.

I do think the governance is capable of this though. Definitely.

Are you seriously saying no one's ever been framed in Thailand or in Phuket? That people with power don't abuse and even kill the people below them and in their care to maintain that power in this country?

EDIT : I've just done some research and found out that the 2 men convicted of murdering Katherine Horton in 2007 had their sentences commuted to life, after initially getting the death sentence.

Get off your high horse! I wrote this post long before you or Daniel's mom posted anything! It was post #10. Why don't you try your own advise and read before you post! Or learn to use the quote functions correctly...

You agree totally with the baseless speculation and random guessing put forth by some people who've never met the person inolved and their family?

Ah, so you have met them? Not from what I have read on this thread... And who are you, the self appointed moderator of this thread?

No. This horse is quite comfortable thank you. Just a shame it's a Shetland Pony.

I've been talking to Mrs Ketley privately, yes. I am going to visit them, yes. Have I met them? No. Have I said I'd met them? No. Do not put words in my mouth.

I wasn't replying to you. I was replying to moonbarman. It's quite clear in my post. Take some paranoia pills.

The fact that you happened to be quoted in there and I refer to your quote was required. It makes your "take your own advice [sic]" thing quite bizarre really.

Anyway, seeing as you seem to want to bring yourself to everyone's attention again. "But he should have had accident insurance." HE DID. That's the kind of comment I'm getting fed up with on TV. You started it by making a factual statement that had no basis in reality whatsoever, the fact you did it in post #10 doesn't alter the reality that you made it up in your head. You just assumed, as there's a donation page, that he wasn't insured, didn't you? That is not the case. It has been explained with clarity by Mrs Ketley.

That. Is. My. Point.

Listen, I'm not here for tit-for-tat. I left school some time ago.

I want the facts to be clear and to stop people unnecessarily spreading misinformation that can upset the family and maybe damage any case to be made. You agree totally with the baseless speculation and random guessing put forth by some people who've never met the person inolved and their family? If that makes the more touchy of you accuse me of trying to moderate, then so be it.

I know I have no agenda. I think the lad could use a helping hand at this time as he seems like a decent fella and they seem like a really nice family. If people continue to think that he's at fault for not being insured, it will have a negative impact on the benefit ThaiVisa Forum can be to them, through donations. You really don't see that, do you?

If you have a problem with me trying to help their family, because I'm in a position to do so, then I don't know what to say.

Please yourself, but I'm not going to be cowed.

A rather hypocritical post IMO. I don't have a problem if you are actually going to help the family, but I do object to your holier than thou attitude... Part of the problem, as usual with any "news" that the Phuket Gazette prints, is it is sensationalistic and incomplete. Good luck to the young man and his family.

If trying to help them makes me a hypocrite, then fine, I'm a hypocrite.

Holier than thou? Lol! What's with all your name calling? I am doing that to you?

In neither article quoted, The Gazette or the Gold Coast, does it mention insurance once. I've read them and re-read them just now.

The notion he doesn't have insurance was completely made up by TV forum members. Including yourself. Stop looking elsewhere. It casued other people to believe he didn't too.

Look, whatever man, I'm not here to have some degenerate argument with another anonymous person on here. It's very boring.

I want people to know the truth. I stated my case. I think it makes sense. If you don't like that, I can't help it.

Get off your high horse! I wrote this post long before you or Daniel's mom posted anything! It was post #10. Why don't you try your own advise and read before you post! Or learn to use the quote functions correctly...

You agree totally with the baseless speculation and random guessing put forth by some people who've never met the person inolved and their family?

Ah, so you have met them? Not from what I have read on this thread... And who are you, the self appointed moderator of this thread?

No. This horse is quite comfortable, thank you. Just a shame it's a Shetland Pony.

I've been talking to Mrs Ketley privately, yes. I am going to visit them, yes.

Daniel speaks Thai, so do I and there's not many people I have a chance to have a chinwag with in Thai who aren't Thai. It'll be nice. I'm looking forward to it. I like Muay Thai, I love the fact there's another person out there, who's close to my age who has immersed himself in the culture like me. His folks are dedicated to him, to they extent they swapped the Gold Coast for Phuket. That's what I know and it's really cool that there's people here in Thailand like that. I'd like to say hello, not to mention try and cheer a young lad up if I can.

Have I met them yet? No. Have I said I'd met them yet? No. Do not put words in my mouth.

I wasn't replying to you anyway. I was replying to moonbarman. It's quite clear in my post. Take some paranoia pills.

The fact that you happened to be quoted in there and I refer to your quote was required. It makes your "take your own advice [sic]" thing quite bizarre really.

Anyway, seeing as you seem to want to bring yourself to everyone's attention again. "But he should have had accident insurance." HE DID. HE DOES. That's the kind of comment I'm getting fed up with on TV. You started it by making a factual statement that had no basis in reality whatsoever, the fact you did it in post #10 doesn't alter the reality that you made it up in your head. You just assumed, as there's a donation page, that he wasn't insured, didn't you? That is not the case. It has been explained with clarity by Mrs Ketley.

As you can now see, it also caused another person in the thread to believe that he wasn't insured when he is insured, even much later on. That's the potential impact of an irresponsible post.

That. Is. My. Point.

Listen, I'm not here for tit-for-tat. I left school some time ago.

I want the facts to be clear and for people to stop unnecessarily spreading misinformation that can upset the family and maybe damage any case to be made. I've said that enough times now. If that makes the more touchy of you accuse me of trying to moderate, then so be it.

I know I have no agenda. I think the lad could use a helping hand at this time as he seems like a decent fella and they seem like a really nice family. If people continue to think that he's at fault for not being insured, it will have a negative impact on the benefit ThaiVisa Forum can be to them, through donations. You really don't see that, do you? Wouldn't you want people to rally round if your child was critically ill?

My wife lost her daughter (my adopted daughter) and her son-in-law in motorbike accident last June. We have adopted their children, 3 and 8.

If there's anyone who knows how it can hurt seeing their child in pain, it's me. After this year, I have a lot of experience in dealing with tradegy in this country. I'm not looking for sympathy. Simply explaining why I'd like to visit them and could actually help them. If only just through some emotional support and a donation.

If you have a problem with me trying to help their family, because I'm in a position to do so, then I don't know what to say.

Please yourself, but I'm not going to be cowed.

As has already been mentioned, Burma/Myanmar does not have the amenities necessary to bring it the tourist numbers like Thailand has today. They will come though.

I'd say the one major thing that needs to be adressed as fast as possible is the ability to have access to your money. Burma/Myanmar is still technically under financial sanction by the USA, although I would imagine these sanctions would be lifted in time for the 2013 Asean Games which they're hosting. Visa, Mastercard, et al - you can't be without these things.

It is my understanding you cannot use any kind of foreign (including Thai) ATM card at any machine there. Machines are not widespread so rolling out this amenity is going to take some time. Also Burma/Myanmar has a policy of only allowing banks and government authorised money changers to exchange. Although many people do it, it is actually illegal for the Burmese to have any foreign currency in their possession.

No tourist wants to carry that much cash around with them. I wouldn't.

The one massive thing I think Burma has to its advantage, in the long run, is the fact it's streets ahead of all its Asean neighbours in English in its major tourist areas, probably with the exceptions of Singapore and Malaysia. Thailand is very very poor at English, given its reliance on using the language. The only thing Thailand has done correctly is having directions and places name in English nearly everywhere you drive. It is only placenames with arrows and not the orange and yellow warning signs, but that was a drastic improvement.

Aside from the mafia-enforced Russification of Phuket, English is the defacto language for all Western nationalities when visiting the Asean region. I've been to Burma and it's widely spoken. Not to mention in neighbouring India and Bangladesh, where a lot of people also come in from, they also speak English and it's an ex-colony.

The motivating factor for you average tourist has to be money. It's always the cost factor.

Prices and the rate of inflation in Thailand is starting to get a little ridiculous. What'll happen is it'll get to a point where the prices force people to look elsewhere in the region, the tourist dollar will eventually start to go away and you're left with highly inflated places that none of the populace or visitors can/want to afford as the economy has been irreparably damaged.

Nothing will be done about Phuket and puppet after puppet will just bluster that it'll be cleaned up and before long there'll be nowhere left.

My biggest worry is that Ao Nang, Koh Lanta and other similarly quiet idyllic places will start to turn into Pattaya and Phuket.

There's little places left after that. Trang and Satun are very very unchartered (aside from Koh Lipe, Koh Kradan, Koh Ngai and Koh Tarutao). In the Gulf Koh Phagnan is already ruined. Koh Samui is the new Phuket and is on the road to irreperable damage.

Complacency is common form for Thailand, so we shouldn't really be surprised at all. Although there's no question its painful to watch a country you love harming itself over and over and over again.

Part of me wants certain types of tourists to leave. You know the type I mean. The other part of me feels sad for the average "Joe the plumber" in Thailand that would be out of pocket. It's not his fault his government are a bit mental.

All power to Burma/Myanmar, any tentative steps into the light should be greatly encouraged. It has some of the most beautiful and jaw-droppingly stunning temple complexes I've seen in the world.

Thailand deserves to lose out to Burma/Myanmar, it needs a hardcore reality check and slap in the face. Even when that does start happening no one in the government will admit it and you'll never get reliable figures. It'll all be obfuscation and maniuplation of numbers to paint a false picture.

Sometimes I just wanna grab Thailand by its lapels and shout "Y U NO PLAY NICE!?" in its face. Not that it would listen or care and I'd probably be poisoned for making it lose face.

Secondary issue.......what's this Facebook fund all about? Was this guy in Thailand without travel insurance?????

I'm not judging him as I can't deduce if he was or not, however anyone traveling to Thailand without insurance is a nutter.

Perhaps you didn't read:

Mr Ketley has lived in Phuket with his parents for the past three years and is a full-time muay thai boxer training with the Sumalee Boxing Gym in Thalang.

But he should have had accident insurance. It's very inexpensive from local banks...

Agree totally but surely being a professional muay thai fighter he would have decent health insurance anyway.

"He should have...." and you "agree totally."

You agree totally with the baseless speculation and random guessing put forth by some people who've never met the person inolved and their family? You also quote someone labelling him a "nutter" for not having insurance. Nice one.

This is what's wrong with TV.

Just read. It's really that simple. Mrs Ketley, in post #138 explains the insurance situation in full and it's referred to again in post #149. Someone even questions the insurance right after she addresses it and now you're replying to that person again. It really beggars belief.

In fact, I've just realised you're replying to a post which is below the post in which Mrs Ketley answers the quesiton of insurance in full. That deserves a round of applause.

Incase you're still adamant you're going to employ your selective reading techniques, I've picked out the pertinent quote from Mrs Ketley herself:

"As for those asking whether he had insurance. Yes of course he has insurance. Health and Accident Insurance. We are all insured. But the insurance was used up to reconstruct his face and mouth."

Just stay quiet if you're not going to add anything of value or you run the risk of spreading misinformation and actually hindering any progress in the case, not to mention upsetting the family.

Definitely don't bother to post if you yourself can't be bothered to read any of the posts in the thread.

Thought you might fing this interesting GOM. A real Black Russian.

Interesting. Steve, you are one twisted, messed up dude if you made that up for God knows what reason. Why in the world would anyone without a personality disorder feel the need to make up such facts when they have absolutely no relation to the incident. So, what's the source Steve.

Calm down mate. Read my previous post, above yours, about the Gold Coast article. It's clearly linked in the last line of the original post and is the source of the whole article here.

It uses the words "emergency authorities were sure Daniel's injuries fitted those of an accident" granted it mensions nothing about documentation and that is taking artistic lisence, but I'm sure they meant no malice.

Well if article says, my apologies. Just think with family here people should be objective and not make <deleted> up to suit personal feelings.

Seems like family would know what was said and I would agree with families statement they would prefer it to be a motorcycle accident. Easier to digest and no way to sue and receive compensation from perpetrators in Thailand anyway.

Not fired up, but amazed and amused by people here.

No worries mate. Can totally see where you're coming from and some people should just stay quiet and resist that urge to be inflammatory or the thread clown, there's a time an place for that and that's not here.

We should just do all we can to support Daniel at this time as there's nothing we're going to be able to do to help solve a case, unless we witnessed it.

Interesting. Steve, you are one twisted, messed up dude if you made that up for God knows what reason. Why in the world would anyone without a personality disorder feel the need to make up such facts when they have absolutely no relation to the incident. So, what's the source Steve.

Calm down mate. Read my previous post, above yours, about the Gold Coast article. It's clearly linked in the last line of the original post and is the source of the whole article here.

It uses the words "emergency authorities were sure Daniel's injuries fitted those of an accident" granted it mensions nothing about documentation and to be fair neither does Steve.

Mrs Ketley did also mention in a previous post that the doctor currently treating Daniel hired after he came home (as I understand it) was the one who proferred the possibility of there being another explanation for Daniel's injuries.

"Later that week our doctor who was caring for him at home approached me and asked me if I had considered that Daniel's injuries were not due to a motorcycle accident. That in his

experience with forensics, he was clearly beaten with a bat or an object of the sort and that the injuries were caused to cause permanent damage or even death."

Maybe you can accuse him of taking artistic lisence, but I'm sure Steve meant no malice and your talk of personality disorders is a bit uncalled for. It imples all people with personality disorders make up facts.

Would you please show proof of where the ER medical staff declared it a motorbike accident? I'd be interested to know how you got that documented information and I didn't.

Hi Deborah and welcome back to the thread, I hope Daniel is improving.

Not that people should be citing it as any form of proof as not one of us have spoken to anyone of the authorities involved, I think the cause of this is the Gold Coast article that's linked in the original post.

You can find it here. Gold Coast Article.

You can see about halfway down it says:

Freelance journalist Phil Teese lives on Phuket and said despite the family's belief that their son was bashed, emergency authorities were sure Daniel's injuries fitted those of an accident.

"The people at the hospital and the police are saying the injuries are more consistent with running into a pole than being attacked," he said.

If I read the article that way given the information about Daniel being on a bike that evening, I'd assume that's what was meant. It lead me to come to that conclusion too, until you came on the thread and helped clear it up in my mind.

All the best.

You completely missed the point of the discussion. The other poster said that no way the doctor could have known what happened to this kid and that he should have never told the family that no way was the injuries caused by a motorcycle wreck. M point simply was that doctors are very qualified to opine as to what caused injuries and if they told the family that, he perhaps saw something that strongly supported his opinion.

Not to mention the fact that by encouraging the family to think this way, it could potentially put him on a collision course with the BiB.

I said before and I'll say it again. Thailand has one of the highest, if not THE highest amount of RTAs per year in the world. I'd imagine a massive porportion of doctors' work is RTA related here. If there's one thing they see a lot of its injuries resulting from car and bike accidents.

Look at this guys body, no marks at all. How do you attack a person thats a champion kick boxer and only hit him on the head and right arm without leaving a mark on his body. No way!!! Let's wait and see on this one.

thats what i thought too, if he got beaten up, they will have kicked his body as well.

It's inane rubbish like this^ that needs to be eradicated from posts.

A.) You cannot see his lower body in any of the photographs in this thread or linked articles/photos, certainly not his abdomen.

B.) "They would have kicked his body as well" Why would they? You're an expert on every physical attack perpetrated in Thailand are you? I'd have thought to cause maximum damage in the shortest time, you'd concentrate all your effort on the head. This assertion that people have to be kicked is just nonsensical.

C.) You're an expert on what damage on the body sustained from kicks looks like, if he was indeed kicked, are you? The most common form of lower body injury, especially in the abodem that I hear of is internal bleeding.

D.) You obviously haven't even bothered to read any of the posts here. Especially those written by his mother, that explain his injuries in clear detail:

"Internal bleeding in the abdomen area, which may have been received from kicks. Daniel's body is conditioned to receive blows. He also had bruises to both his hips."

E.) You didn't even consider for a second that the majority of the damage would have been done with some sort of blunt instrument. The damage to his hand, which is clearly visible would be consistent with shielding your face. Again from Daniel's mother:

"Later that week our doctor who was caring for him at home approached me and asked me if I had considered that Daniel's injuries were not due to a motorcycle accident. That in his

experience with forensics, he was clearly beaten with a bat or an object of the sort and that the injuries were caused to cause permanent damage or even death."

F.) Lastly for everyone esle that seems to have automatically assumed that if it is an attack, then it must have been done by Thais. Again from Daniel's mother:

"We have never mentioned the attackers were Thai and they may very well have been foreigners."

G.) This is what makes me definitely not even question what the lady says for an instant.

"What we do know for sure is that Daniel is a respected member of the community. He isn't arrogant or rude, nor does he boast about his achievements and talents. He has been living in Thailand almost 5 years, 2 of them in Ubon where he learnt to speak Thai. He has high respect for Thais and knows how to conduct himself. He is not on Ya Ba or any such drugs and has nothing to hide. When asked if he owes money or has been involved with the wrong people, he says "I don't know of anyone who would do this to me, or want to do this to me." Anyone that has had any contact with Daniel

will verify that he is a decent, respectful and talented young man whose only dream is to make it big in the Muay Thai world. He left to go to Ubon at 18 and Muay Thai is his life."

That is not your stereotype you have in your heads. Is it?

If you bothered to read, inform yourself, instead of just spouting off at the mouth, life would be so much easier for everyone and you wouldn't run the risk of upsetting their family more than is necessary. We already know they read this thread. Well they did before Deborah told us she wasn't going to post anymore. Who knows if they'd bother to come back. From the things some people have said, I wouldn't want to either.

I'd like to think we can rally round and be supportive instead of always having to doubt and spread misinformation and cause potential upset to people who have to be going through a very hard time.

I live in hope.

You've already scared the poor lady off the thread. Nice one fellas.

To use a good old Scouse word...there have been some real gobshite's on here today...so not suprised..

I agree, there's been some right scallies and sconeheads here on this thread.

Everyone needs to calm down, calm down.

Don't close it though, I'd like people to still be able to donate and be aware they can. I think the family could do with that helping hand and shows TV can be a force for good.

I'd say lock it, but it'd be a shame for Daniel not to continue to receive the publicity that will encourage donations.

I'd please ask people to read all of what Daniel's mother has said in this thread. It answers lots of questions and also brings up more. If you do actually read what she says you'll quite clearly see their family is aware of the attention Daniel is getting at TV and have passed on wellwishing messages to Daniel on our behalf.

Daniel's mother said quite clearly she believe it could easily be foreigners that attacked her son.

I have absolutely no reason to doubt what this lady says. Please go and see how she describes her son.

It'll also be very easy to corborrate when I visit Phuket sometime soon. I'd like to wish him my best in person. Not that I feel that I need to coroborrate in any way, just making a point.

The total disregard for the family's feelings here is quite shocking from some people. You should know better really.

You've already scared the poor lady off the thread. Nice one fellas.

no 30 day tourist visa on arrival for these persons ???? directly put into jail , nice ...land of smiles, if you have money

They are never locked up. I'm no apologist for the Thai government but seeking to attack Thailand for their treatment of DPRK refugees is barking up the wrong tree.

Remember that they have had to clandestinely pass through 2 other countries before they reach what they consider the safety of Thailand.

Not all cases are like this, but....

You know what really blows my mind? They're starved by a government who doesn't care and isn't trying to help them and in desperation they try to escape to feed their family. They gamble. If they lose they die and possibly members of their family die too at the hands of the their own compatriots and government or through the lack of food.

If they win, there's a high probablity people will still die or be incarcerated.

Can you even contemplate being in that position? It's so messed up. So sad.

no 30 day tourist visa on arrival for these persons ???? directly put into jail , nice ...land of smiles, if you have money

Unreal, any other country would immediately issue visas to anyone caught sneaking across the border and put them up in a hotel while they verified who they were. Amazing Thailand

Total rubbish.

I don't know why you bother as you know I always back up what I say with sources.

China and Russia repatriate them, which are the only other borders aside from the DMZ that DPRK has. They are sent to gulags 100% of the time and there's many cases where people are executed immediately. When they're known as being a defector their family is round up and sent to the gulag with them or executed.

I suppose you'd rather they do this then? Repatriation leads to death. (Asia Times)

"No one denies the punishments are unnecessarily severe: for the crime of crossing the border to obtain a bag of rice to feed their family, a North Korean caught in China faces repatriation, certain prison and, in the case of several known individuals, death."

Children sent back as criminals. (Amnesty International.)

"It was also deeply concerned by reports that children (and their families) returning or forcibly returned back to North Korea were considered by the North Korea government not as victims but as perpetrators of a crime."

When you sit and think for a moment that children often make this journey, it really hits it home. I could not, on behalf of my country, in good conscience send a child back to their death. No one should be allowed to do that.

Thailand has no land border with DPRK and it's indicated they made it down the Mekhong attempting to hit a country that would treat them favorably. Thailand was that country. That's not a phrase I'm used to hearing often, that Thai Gov't intervention has saved people lives. Whatever their motivation.

You must be trolling as anyone with a brain wouldn't make that statement without doing any research first. It's disappointing.

If you're here to mess around again, I'll take my leave and not bother posting on anything you interact with. It's the ultimate exercise in futility and you're starting to make me not want to bother.

no 30 day tourist visa on arrival for these persons ???? directly put into jail , nice ...land of smiles, if you have money

What are you talking about? If they'd been taken in by China, they would have been repatriated and be either exectued or sent with their family to a gulag (which for the research I have done from people that have lived in them) is a worse fate.

It may not be an ideal scenario, but knowing they're en route to a drastically improved life where their liberty is not curtailed in South Korea, where people speak their language, where there are many familial ties separated abruptly by the 38th parallel in 1948.

Should Thailand change its stance and take them all in, house them, feed them, give them documentation? Put them up in the Sheraton? Remember this is Thailand we're talking about not the Netherlands. If I turned up at the airport with no money for a return ticket and destitute Thailand would not put me up at their expense. No one else gets afforded that privilege here. There's multiple cases I can cite of homeless farangs just wandering streets. Where's the bed and board for them? If the police did deal with such people they'd have to place them in the IDC after a local holding cell.

Or should they, expediently, be moved onto a country where their families are, that they can communicate with and where there's a growing population of similar defectors looking to rebuild new lives?

Seeing as you seem to be the expert here on how they're dealt with and where they have to stay, what amenities they're entitled to, what their liberties are... why don't you impart on us your knowledge.

I'm geuninely interested to know about what happens to them when they're processed.

I'd presume they'd have to go to the IDC. By no means the nicest place to stay in the world, but they're not there forever and they'll be the ones processed through there the fastest. They will be fed and their chance of dying is 0.

I've said it before already, Sino-Thai relations are much closer than with most other countries in the world, for very obvious reasons, I'd say at least 50% of the people living in my moo ban have Chinese blood in one form or another. They could follow the Chinese so easily on this policy, but they've chosen not to.

Thailand has form in treating ethnic minorities from Burma badly. The Rohingyas that were left to die on a powerless boat? Shall we return to that mentality?

You're right, I don't have that kind of problem entering the country, but that's not my fault. I didn't choose where I was born. Totally irrelevant.

I find it ridiculous that they fine them here in Thailand considering they're from North Korea.

Yes it sounds a bit silly but actually it is just part of the standard procedure for DPRK refugees arriving in Thailand. The Thai authorities are relatively sympathetic to them and I think the fine in is the order of THB1000 which is paid by the NGO's involved in getting them to South Korea.

That's very interesting. I'm impressed to hear it's so low and seemingly just paying service to bureaucracy. There has to be some financial impact of having to accomodate them and asking for $30 from an NGO for them to have safe passage to a new unopressed life if totally fine with me.

I just wish more people were able to receive and understand the message north of the border.

Leaving DPRK is gambling not only with your own life, but the lives of your loved ones too. Can you imagine being in that predicment? How horrific.

Amazing you've been, it's something I've always wanted to do.

Nice to have an informed opinion for a change instead of people just making things up without doing any research.

If you speak Thai, well, and find yourself at a loss in any situ; the simple words, "Mai ow pan ha", "Pom pen khun Thai, pom yoo thai sib bee, pom pasa Thai dee, pom mai ow pan ha gap khun krap, khun na krap".... is more than enough to get you out of any shit!!

There is a lingo consequence missing here too, Mrs Deborah. If your son spoke both Esan and Thai he would easily talk his way out of a potentially hot situation. If he was in a hot situ, and a 8 out of 9 winner of Muay Thai in Thailand at aged 22....... hum, was he pissed up?

Easy to call this one on a few thugs for the insurance, after a few serious incidents in the last week, but why didn't you spark up on TV 2 weeks ago? If you are his mother...... no disrespect, but we all know the place is full of weirdos, and you don't have too many regular posts............

Why did you turn to TV today? Plenty of higher profile media to go to, when you are spending your valued time looking after your son. The Sun UK would probably pay 100,000 pounds for the story with a pic....... but you sold out already..... soz about that.

-mel.

Ah Mel, Mel, Mel, Mel, Mel.

I totally expected something harsh and doubting.

It's totally situational. Speaking Thai does not mean you can automatically extricate yourself from every confrontation. If often causes confrontation in itself (speaking from experience), with people that want to have a fight with you and intend on doing your harm. It can exacerbate a situation and I'm speaking from experience.

I've seen lots of gang attacks on people in Thailand, or the results of them and it's common for the victim being attacked to be jumped from behind in a cowardly fashion. That's very par for the course here.

If this was a premeditated attack then even more reason to believe this point. Why would you bother having a chinwag with your victim if your intent isn't going to change any time soon.

Also, it's been said in the the linked articles (I'm sick of handing links out now, find it yourself) that blood analysis from the hopsital shows he was sober.

If you read what Deborah said in full (and I really doubt you have) you'd see the facts, tone and language used make this clearly from his Mum, to be suspicious of that and what has been said is really quite dissappointing to read.

It'll be very easy to coroborrate all of what Deborah has said. Why would someone automatically have a TV account. The world doesn't revolve around this forum you know?

Your cycnicism knows no bounds.

If Daniel's going to need dedicated long-term care and negative misinformation and speculation about your son could stop him getting the help he needed, wouldn't you try and do something to set the record straight.

I know I definitely would, without even thinking about it.

I'd really urge you to read what she said, in full as I don't think you have. There's no screaming and wailing, gnashing of teeth. It's pure facts from someone who has to be there, right now.

Your whole post about what your body can take and the shaolin thing is wrong on so many levels I don't really have the time to address it. It's really quite silly.

I hope you haven't made this lady's time even harder than it is by saying what you've said.

I defend your right to say whatever you want. Even if I think it's wrong. I think you might have gone a bit far here though mate.

Yes, many Britts come to Thailand to retire .. possibly more than any other country. And yes, Britts cause trouble more in Thailand than they do anywhere else overseas and yes they die here more with the leading cause of death being they ride motorbikes without helmets ... Maybe just me but this would seem more to be an issue with Britts than safety in Thailand.

Not more than any other country. Not fact. It's not even in the top 7. I can back up what I say.

Australia 1.3m

Spain 0.76m

USA 0.67

Canada 0.60m

Ireland 0.29m

New Zealand 0.21m

South Africa 0.21m

(Source.)

"cause more trouble" and are "most likely to get into the sort of trouble that requires consular assistance" are not the same thing and I actually resent your inference in that statement, especially when you follow that with "seem more to be an issue with Brits [sic]".

Cool man, I'm not here for this kind of bias and will leave you to your opinions. If it was warranted, fair enough, but it's not and spoils any further debate for me.

I will say in parting that the English have always been referred to as "ผู้ดีอังกฤษ" or "Poo Dee Angrit" and I've actually been called that, quite a lot of times in my "หมู่บ้าน" "moo ban."

We're the only "ฟรัง" "farang" to be singled out with this honorific and I've asked why. I keep my findings to myself as I doubt many craps will be given.