ManInSurat

One man was identified as a Portuguese guest, the other is unidentified. In which case classing the unidentified man as Portuguese seems to be jumping the gun. Unidentified means unrecognised, as opposed to not, or non-, identified, which can be read as recognised but identity not revealed.

Only one of the men would have had to have handed in their passport to the hotel when staying in one room.

I'd imagine the police have his name from the copy the hotel took and there's no record of the other. That's the most logical conclusion really.

I'd imagine they have ways and means to find out the name of the other Portuguese now they know who Mr Tinto is.

They have come out and said there is no connection to the men so therefore, it's a bit irrelevant really.

Agree with all of the above as I've treated many patients who had both benzo and alcohol abuse problem. Truely a deadly mix. What puzzles me is that both girls succumbed to something at the same time. That suggests foul play or a powerful poison.

Chiang Mai deaths had multiple people succumbing at the same time. The previous 2009 Phi Phi deaths had 2 women succumbing at the same time. It is strange but by no means an isolated incident.

Occam's razor would point you toward illegal chemicals in this instant, as there is a proven precedent for it from Chiang Mai, but that's not to say it's the case here is it?

As for foul play? Hmmm. One thing going for that theory, is that if it was a banned chemical used by the hotel owners I don't see how they could have just affected two people in one room. I'll agree that is rather odd.

Hopefully some investigative journalist not affiliated with the Thai government will be able to get in there and get a sample. It's highly likely the room has been torched/whitewashed though.

Aren't the 2009 Phi Phi deaths still marked as unsolved?

I'd imagine when you have a highly unregulated tourism/hotel industry this kind of thing will continue to happen and very few craps will continue to be given. I'm not bashing here, that's pretty much the truth.

You'd only hope that the adverse media coverage would be enough to force the government into some kind of action. If it's a question of negligence on the hotel's part in this case. There's no evidence that it is, but the island and other places do have form and I can understand that links will be made.

Following the NZ TV channel's private investigation on the Chiang Mai hotel and their findings of illegal insectisdes the Thai government is going to be forced to acknowledge (at least) the regulation of hotels and what chemicals they are allowed to use. Will it lead to real action? I wouldn't like to say. That hotel has now been torn down, I hasten to add. Quite rightly so. This does not mean that and this case are connected though.

Until there's some clear toxicology reports, hopefully done by a private investigation team somehow, there's no reason to think this is a similar incident in any way, other than people died in a hotel from unknown causes.

Also, it has already been clearly pointed out these Portuguese guys are in no way suspects, their only connection is that they happen to be the last people to see the girls alive. It would really stand to reason that the police would need to speak to said people.

If they don't get the Portuguese they're criticized for being lazy or stupid, if they DO get them they're heavy handed and brutal and HUNTING (seriously?) for a scapegoat.

People looking for a reason to refinorce their own Thai-hating agenda will always manage to find one.

We get branded as apologists when we try to point out the truth and fact.

Internet fora are so much fun!

<deleted> has Sylvester Stallone got to do with anyof this this....he is not Portugese, well I dont think he is...Helicopter's and A-47....I know this thread is bizarre, but think we have a poster who has finally lost the plot.

Not sure if you're trolling or serious from reading all the other stuff I wrote in that same post, but anyway....

Did you seriously just read that part of the post? Has Hellhound got you all hot and flustered?

Mate, it's just tongue-in-cheek.

I'm sure that's what the bashers and conspiracy theorists see in their head when they're writing about this incident here.

That that's what these "hunted" Portuguese guys would go through when found. You know like a satirical take on how twisted people's minds get.

Throw Elvis and the Loch Ness monster in the chopper for good measure and the picture's complete.

(Alright, alright I saw the Expendables recently.)

Just trying to be silly to make a point. Sigh.

If i was these two guys i'd get out asap before the're set up it's called saving face in Thailand

I really do wish people would read.

''There is no need to highlight the presence of a couple of men on the security footage because they had no connection to the deaths of the women.''

''We checked out the prospect of any kind of violence involved in their deaths and have ruled that out''

The Superintendent of Krabi Town police, Colonel Jamroon Rumrom. Already quoted in this thread.

But hey, don't let anything stand in the way of your opportunity to bash Thailand anonymously from behind your monitor and just throw around the phrase "saving face" randomly as if you actually understand Thai culture and how Thais are raised to think.

I'd imagine the need to speak to the last people to see the deceased alive would probably need them to actually locate the people and... I don't know... speak to them. In a police station (yes, where they can savagely beat them, force false confessions, make them dance for food until Sylvester Stallone lands in the police station forecourt in a camouflaged chopper with his AK47s blazing and saves the day.)

I agree with the notion that whatever the authorities say it's going to be a no-win situation.

That is not to say that's there's no precedent for similar deaths on the island and on the mainland. However, all you bashers have a wonderful platform now. Oh great!

The ridiculous use of the word "hunt" in the headline is irresponsible and reprehensible. Take it out please.

P.S. Soutpeel and Hellhound can you guys get a room? It's great you're so enamoured with each other, but do we really have to read all about it?

Ok very simple. Let's see the motorcycle.

If he did crash it should be evident on the bike.

Excellent point!!

Maybe he doesn't want to lose face if he was 'out' kick-boxed?

Too late. He's had to have facial reconstruction to get his face back after he lost it. (Sorry I couldn't resist. No malice intended!)

If those injuries are from a beating, that's not being "outkickboxed" that's a criminal offense and GBH in my book. Knowing the Thai mentality, it's very rarely one-on-one. It's nearly always gangs-on-one.

That's if that even happened. Which no one, but the man involved (amnesia aside) and potential assailants know.

why would the hospital say that his injuries are consistent with a motorcycle crash when the ambulance picked him up?

Did someone carry him to another location? you would think that the motorbike would still be there, wouldnt you? then you would be able to say he was picked up at the scene of the accident

Well from reading the OP and the Gold Coast article it would appear they moved him to this private hospital owing to a issue of mistrust.

That's what they've set up a FB donation page to pay for the exorbitant fees.

The original hospital staff or the paramedics on scene seem to think it was an RTA. It's totally plausible the new hospital have said something to the contrary. It'd be really nice to hear what the private hopsital assess as the cause of the injuries.

Surely they'd be able to tell the difference between a sustained attack and hitting a stationary object.

Again from the Gold Coast article

"We have him in a private hospital ... it's not cheap but it is the only one that we trust," he said. (His Dad said.)

I would imagine he was at a state run first and then moved shortly thereafter when the family got a chance to speak to Daniel and found out that he thought something was amiss.

Not trusting a hospital is quite strange. I know corruption is rife, but it's one of the few instiutions that I'd like to believe aren't as bad as all the other authorities.

Having said that, could I imagine a bent doctor in Thailand giving opinions under duress or expectation from the BiB? Yes I could. Sadly.

I would presume he was first taken to Vachira hospital, and after that on request of the family to a private hospital with a better reputation. I think 'trust has here more to with quality of hospital services than lying/being bent.

I can see that. Having had a friend treated for a serious RTA in the Krabi state-run who I moved. Although I did move him to Surat state-run at Sri Wichai (which is excellent and better than the private Thaksin down the road.)

I'd just like to know the context of... "We have him in a private hospital ... it's not cheap but it is the only one that we trust,"

That would clear it up for me.

You're right though, it could be they mean facilities and treatment and it's probably more likely that is what they meant.

Hey, let me have my conspiracy! I mean, what will I do without opining my totally baseless speculation and 100% conjecture on an internet forum?

why would the hospital say that his injuries are consistent with a motorcycle crash when the ambulance picked him up?

Did someone carry him to another location? you would think that the motorbike would still be there, wouldnt you? then you would be able to say he was picked up at the scene of the accident

Well from reading the OP and the Gold Coast article it would appear they moved him to this private hospital owing to a issue of mistrust.

That's why they've set up a FB donation page to pay for the exorbitant fees.

The original hospital staff or the paramedics on scene seem to think it was an RTA. It's totally plausible the new hospital have said something to the contrary. It'd be really nice to hear what the private hopsital assess as the cause of the injuries.

Surely they'd be able to tell the difference between a sustained attack and hitting a stationary object.

Again from the Gold Coast article

"We have him in a private hospital ... it's not cheap but it is the only one that we trust," he said. (His Dad said.)

I would imagine he was at a state run first and then moved shortly thereafter when the family got a chance to speak to Daniel and found out that he thought something was amiss. It seems they turned their suspicion on the hospital too at that time.

Not trusting a hospital is quite strange. I know corruption is rife, but it's one of the few instiutions that I'd like to believe aren't as bad as all the others.

Having said that, could I imagine a bent doctor in Thailand giving opinions under duress or expectation from the BiB or even corroborating with them? Yes I could. Sadly.

It seems to me the Dad talked to his son and his son is adamant he was attacked.

In that situation I know what I'd do for my boy. I can understand the family's actions here. Very understandable indeed.

Will we ever find out what actually happened? I highly doubt it.

Post #33 mentioned the bike. Here is the link again where the bike gets a mention

http://news.ninemsn....aspx?id=8487202

Here is the pertinent information from that article.

"Police say they cannot investigate any further until Mr Ketley regains his memory of the night but the fighter is sure he did not crash his bike.

"I know I can't have crashed. I know the roads very well, and the damage to my body … if I had crashed I would have put my hands down for sure but they aren't grazed," Mr Ketley told The Phuket News."

Sounds to me like he is very much aware of things if he can access his injuries. As far as knowing the road very well so what. A lot of accidents happen on roads people know very well.

With the greatest respect to Mr Kelty even he admits he has no recollection other than a vague memory of a petrol station.

Again, if he had hit a pole of some kind (which the medical staff who saw him first seem to think), which I see happen a lot, it's very plausible you can sustain injuries from the stationary object and not skid along the tarmac. Although, I'm not qualified to make any diagnosis just from looking at that photo or even if I saw him in person.

Again with respect, to say what you will and won't do in an accident doens't really mean anything. Very few people retain their composure in that instant and instinct takes over.

Knowing the road very well also means absolutely nothing. You cannot account for distractions (animals) and especially in Thailand, the conduct of other drivers on the road who you may have to avoid.

What puzzles me is that he was sober and he has no recollection of kicks and/or punches or flashes of the attack. Whilst the brain is a very unpredictable organ and amnesia like this can happen, I just find it hard to believe you would remember absolutely nothing of it at all. That's quite remarkable.

Like smedley here I'm not "taking a side". I'm saying what I see here.

Put your own reading glasses on and read this from the OP .

While Thai police maintain the 21-year-old crashed his motorcycle into a pole near Soi Saiyuan in Naiham, his family, friends and doctors all believe Mr Ketley was bashed, an episode in an explosion of violence against tourists on Phuket.

I would give more weight to the doctors that the BIB. But that is just me.

I edited my post before you got this on here.

I see it. I said I saw it. I hold my hands up and stand corrected.

What I said wasn't without merit though.

Now you go to the Gold Coast article, which has already been linked and read what Daniel or his family actually said to the reporter and what the reporter found out for himself.

Article

Freelance journalist Phil Teese lives on Phuket and said despite the family's belief that their son was bashed, emergency authorities were sure Daniel's injuries fitted those of an accident.

"The people at the hospital and the police are saying the injuries are more consistent with running into a pole than being attacked," he said.

I'll take what someone who actually talked to he and his family and the medical staff said over the opinion of the writer of the OP on this forum any day.

Medical staff that saw him first believe he had an RTA. Unless they're part of the cover-up, which is starting to sound silly to me.

As you said yourself... "I would give more weight to the doctors that the BIB. But that is just me."

So would I mate, so would I.

-------

I have had moderate speed crashes hitting the tarmac with no abrasion and motionless falling off a bike that resulted in abrasion.

The statement "All crashes result in road rash and abrasion." is just simply not true.

It is a failure because as I put it before, Do you see scrapes and abrasions all over his body that would be consistant with a motorbike accident ?

It is easily possible to have a motorbike accident without the scrapes and bruises over the whole body. It can be very localised, like face and skull, see examples given here by others. I don't know what exactly happened, but the presumption 'no roadrash so no accident so a beatup' is ludicrous.

Yes. I see that some posters are of the same opinion as yourself. And I guess anything is possible. But to add weight to mine and many others point of view is right there in the OP. Even the doctors that treated him believe that the injuries are not from a motorbike accident. I did read another particularly interesting post / observation by another member about the markings on his neck. As if he had been head locked or his shirt and been ripped up around his neck.

Er, what?

"The people at the hospital and the police are saying the injuries are more consistent with running into a pole than being attacked," he said.

From the OP and a source linked. Maybe time to get the reading glasses on?

No one can diagnose what happened to this man from a photo on a forum. It'd be curlish to do so. I doubt even one of us is qualified and you'd need to see him in person to really know.

Just show the bike already. Formerly working in claims I could give a qualified opinion on that.

***EDIT: Ah I see it now. From the OP.

"and doctors all believe Mr Ketley was bashed"

Well the medical staff that are treating him now. Apparently not the ones that met him first. Two conflicting arguments in the OP and the Gold Coast article.

I'd still take the direct quote from his Dad though from the Gold Coast article which says emergency workers did say his injuries were consistent with an accident.

The comment in the OP is just the OP's opinion from the way it's written and in context.

Oh dear the English Nazi's have just woken up !!!

Yes miss...he will write his spelling mistakes out 100 times....

*Nazis.

Your apostrophe implies possession of some kind.

(I seriously couldn't help myself. It's a disease I swear!)

-------

Joking aside, the reason there is speculation, be it wild or baseless, is that we live in a country where stranger things have happened and stranger things happen fairly frequently.

When you know there's cover-ups and corruption at every level of authority it makes it easy to have that assumption. That is what is happening here.

Thailand, more specifically Phuket, has form in this kind of thing.

Lastly, can we stop all the medical diagnoses? You're not qualified (unless you actually are) and I would have thought you'd need to see the patient in person to properly ascertain what his injuries are consistent with.

No road rash does not mean he wasn't in a road accident. You can damage your head quite badly at extremely slow speeds, even motionless. However, I am not a doctor and have no clue what his injuries mean or how they could have come about.

The only professional (used loosely) opinion there seems to be is this. Taken from the Gold Coast website:

"Despite the family's belief that their son was bashed, emergency authorities were sure Daniel's injuries fitted those of an accident.

'The people at the hospital and the police are saying the injuries are more consistent with running into a pole than being attacked,' he said.

'They also say it was right outside a bar in a pretty popular spot where you wouldn't normally see an assault, and the guy can't remember a thing.'

A blood-alcohol reading showed Daniel was sober at the time of the incident."

The conspiracy theorists will say the hospital staff are part of the cover-up too, I suspect.

Oh well. Expect never to find out what happened, it's a common theme here.

Speedy recovery there mate. You're lucky to still be with us.

Un-edited pics or it never happened.

Have any of you seen the ads in Thai magazines with all manner of asian beauties with their boobs (alright no nipples) on show? Normal magazines that Thai teens read. Then there's the adverts that come on Thai cable (Samart, etc) from about 10pm - 5am with girls trying to pursuade you to call them whilst wearing as little as possible without showing a nipple. Then there's the many many Thailand-based internet forums that carry these same adverts, but they actually do show nipple. (darkzone.in.th for example) The culture ministry seems to find that acceptable. Oh, that might have something to do with the money, right?

I always find it laughable the culture ministry are outraged, even when it's faux outrage, as this is.

If what she was doing was sexualized in front of children, then fair enough, that is wrong. There's nothing sexual in what she does at all. She even faces away from the audience. People at home got a better look at the pixellated boobs than anything anyone in the audience saw.

If they've got a free spot on the next series of TGT, I'll glad show them the "Farang Sausage Painting Extravaganza."

The culture ministry haven't seen anything yet!

Lastly, TGT doesn't go out live. Someone in their production staff made the decision to air this as it is, with blurring of the boobs and must have got approval. So they knew they were safe.

As another person alluded to earlier the whole thing appears very staged. The Thai "Ant & Dec" properly ham it up. The judges the same. All done with the approval of the culture ministry of course. No way TGTs production staff would gamble on incurring the real wrath of the ministry.

The more pertinent question would be "Why?" after "Who the fudge cares?".

Don't call the girls stupid. They are not stupid, they just are not educated which is typical for a vast majority of the Thai population. The Thai education system is lacking. They are also very naive because they lack the eduction required to make the right choice. People who call them stupid instead of recognizing it's an education problem are the ones that are stupid.

Lack of an education is a direct cause of stupidity. How you choose to form your own separate definition of stupidity is up to you, but it's incorrect.

Irrespective, the last time I checked, Thailand doesn't have "How to Spot a Nigerian Confidence Trickster and Not Be Duped Into Working As a International Drugs Mule" as part of its national syllabus in schools. I do not understand what the archaic teaching methods, massive class sizes and endless repetition of "Gor Gai, Kor Kai, Khor Khuat" will do exactly to reduce the number of Thai people arriving in Hong Kong fully-laden with drugs, but I'm sure you're going to enlighten me.

I would say that there's very little excuses to be heard in the modern age of Thai TV, where 3,5,7,11 reveal these scams and make all of Thai society across all understanding demographics aware of the harsh sentences, nefarious characters, ingenious traps and massive life pitfalls that are to be had with getting involved with drugs at home and abroad. Thailand also now has a real love affair with TV shows like "Jing Pan Jor" which go onto the streets and show all manner of illegal activities being undertaken by all nationalities.

Then there's their peers and friends. So no Thai kids talk about criminal activity and more specifically drugs and how they're delivered to countries worldwide? I'm sorry but you'd have to be extremely naive and have lived a ridiculously sheltered life to not be aware that turning up in China, with a suitcase you haven't packed, that you allegedly haven't even checked and alone, might be a wrong thing to be doing.

One or two of those 50+ women currently incarcerated in HK, I can believe were totally unaware, but I'd have to say the majority very much have themselves to blame, fully knew what the deal was and were doing it for financial gain. For those of you that have touted the promise of marriage to a West African man for a Thai woman as a big enough incentive to disregard all the warning signs of something very bad going down are living in cloud cuckoo land. Thai women (extreme desperation notwithstanding) simply do not view West Africans as healthy marriage prospects and definitely not for anyone under the age of 20. I know, I've asked. The reaction I got was laughter. I am not trying to disparage any race or nationality here, I am making a point.

A Thai government school education is not going to help you with any of this.

If you are Thai woman, stupid, have lived a massively sheltered life away from any media outlet and friends, believe anything that is said to you by anyone from anywhere, then it's very sad and a sorry state of affairs, but you're going to have to be the statistic. A very tiny statistic, I might hasten to add.

If you're a Thai woman who should know better, is blinded by greed, has "selective" common sense and hearing and are willing to get involved with importing narcotics into Asian countries - Darwin has a plan for you.

Lastly, I find it incredulous that the Thai Government is asking for clemency/leniency in the cases where death sentences have been or could be handed down, given that if the same Thai individual was caught doing the same thing on Thai soil at one of its entry points, the likelihood of death or a 50+ year sentence would be very high. I also find it very interesting that there is never any talk of prisoner exchange programs between Thailand and its Asian neighours. Is that perhaps because China and other Asian powerhouses know that after being repatriated, it's extremely likely the Thai national will just be set free upon arrival? I've heard some hypocritical things in my week, but this is probably the most impressive so far. I have no doubt it will be bettered by week's end.

I'm still in Lotus in Krabi City, after moving from Ao Nang, where I was too near the sea. The panic very much seems to be over and I have friends still in Ao Nang I've been phoning who have spoken to the relevant authorities and the warning has been lifted for the area and my eyes on the ground there say there was no receding of water nor any noticeable wave.

Aftershocks will still continue, weakening in force and almost definitely unable to be felt in Thailand.

I'm heading back to the beach now to see what's what.

According to all reports the fact that it was lateral movement along the fault line and not vertical meant far less damage than could have occured if it had been vertical.

I think the area definitely dodged a bullet this time.

I'm glad I evacuated when I did and that I've had a run-through for any potential occurnces in the future.

Hope anyone else affected is safe and well.

I was in Ao Nang, Krabi at the time of the quake, but didn't feel anything as I was on the scooter. The sirens installed after 2004 sounded around 3.30pm.

All of Ao Nang has evaquated and moved to higher ground or in land. I myself have driven to Lotus next to the Airport as I knew they'd have a Wifi hotspot.

A lot of panic here and I've already seen amublances with sirens wailing heading in the other direction with accident being caused by everyone being on the road at the same time.

Having read all the official agency information I can, it seems that this Earthquake has generated much more lateral movement than vertical undersea and therefore from the initial quake it's unlikely there'll be any significant Tsunami for Thailand.

The greater worry is, is that the first major aftershock was supposed to have happened around now and that could cause vertical movement in the water and we won't know until after 8pm if there's going to be any serious increase in water level until around then.

It was literally a max exodus from Ao Nang and it started raining exactly at the same time.

Imagined if it had happened on the 13th? That would have been utterly mental.

More updates if there's anything newsworthy I can add.

(Sources: BBC & USGS.)

Don't let this poster get to you; when you've been on this forum for a while you will discover that he is always like this - just ignore the bigot or you'll bugger your blood pressure.

I've been a member of TV since '07, but don't post very frequently.

Thanks for the heads-up though.

Although the tone of my previous posts might seem agitated, I was far from it when I wrote it. I was laughing at how people can have such ridiculous delusions of grandeur. Made even more pitiful by the fact that he constantly berates Thais and is the first to attack them for everything. It's nice and easy to do that when you're protected by anonymity.

I'd much rather see him do than in a social environment with Thais, letting them know how poorly he thinks of them and how badly behaved they are, according to him. He wouldn't last a second.

I know it's a cliché, but seriously, why would you remain here for that long, if the only thing you can say about the Thais is disdainful? I don't get it. It's hard not to meet the people when you're in their country. Something tells me he hates everyone. Maybe the problem isn't the other people.

Anyway, this has gone long enough.

-----

Interesting statistics there, about the Pitbulls and Rotties having such a lead in the fatal attacks on humans stakes.

I'd have thought the Pitbull case would be down to the way people train them to be weapons and then use them as such against other people and that they're the breed of choice for fighting.

I'd have also thought a Pitbull's propensity to hold on to its target and keep attacking until it or its victim dies or is severely wounded, plays a large part in that. Hence why they're the breed of choice for fights. The same applies for Rotties.

I still stand by my statement that dogs are inextricably linked to mankind, they permeate every facet of our lives and are the animals that are probably held in the highest regard and esteem by humans for many varying reasons. When you get hundreds of millions of people having this relationship with dogs and having them in close proximity constantly, it's very likely that you're going to get fatalities. It's unavoidable. Humans are irresponsible, which ever country they're from or are in and dogs are dogs and always have the ability to attack, irrespective of how placid and tame they appear to be.

People are going to continue to be killed by dogs, equally as they are going to crash cars and it's hard to eradicate the problem as it's a question of responsibility. Irrespective of what nation you're from, there will always be people that will fail in their remit of being a responsible pet owner.

An incident like this could have happened anywhere and will occur in many other places in the future.

This does not make it any less sad and shocking and my sincere condolences go out to the man's family at this troubling time.

ความรู้สึกสะเทือนใจ.

This are the result, as we don,t care about our earth !

Thanks to all pollution and more from us, and our travel, and car driving and industry.

It,s a shame about the climate meetings,who not get any result at all.

High wind and waves all around the year soon, and also.

Have experience from Thailands East Coast and Langkawi, as a sailor and can inform about these winds and storm,who appear soon all around the year.

Load of crap as usual its the global warming tripe, 50 years isnt even the blink of an eye for an event ( more non event) like this. Its windy and there are some big waves????? whats the problem you live near the sea expect this to happen occasionally.

It also give the papers tv something to bore us to death with also now the flooding has subsided, we can add it to the daily shows of blokes in white coats with medals?? being bored stiff at yet another ceremony.

+1

Well said mate.

Climate is cyclic over aeons. We have such a tiny impact on this massive massive Earth of ours.

I wish these freaks would disappear or stop swallowing all the lines they're fed on a daily basis. Although there'd be no fun in that!

Just got back today from my yearly family hols in the Andaman and it was serene and beautiful sunshine on Lanta (from Koh Ngai)!

Had to replan my NYE in the Ao Thai area (Khanom / Koh Tao) as I'd heard that some foreigners have died somewhere in the region.

I can't seem to get any definitive information about that.

Anyone know?

Sympathies go out to those affected.

Totally agree with Luddite on this one.

I've been here for 7 years and spend basically all of my time around Thais, speaking Thai all of the time.

All of the Thais I know regard their surrounding ASEAN neighbours as inferior. Very, very much inferior. I'd personally say Thais have the most animosity towards and look down the most on the Burmese, even more than Cambodians, owing to the very violent history between the two and the numerous references in Thai film, print and music. The story of the heroic war elephant Khan Gluay is a perfect example of this, where the Burmese are protrayed in a very poor light.

Not only that, but as Luddite correctly said, Thais look down on other Thais, much more than I would ever do with any of my fellow Englishmen. I don't see any of my European neighbours as inferior in any way. I see them as equals, as I do every other human being.

Considering Thailand had a caste system for a long time in its history which only disappeared a few centuries ago, it's little surprise there is that attitude here and it's deeply ingrained.

You only have to look at the "Hi-So" culture Thailand now has to see daily evidence of this Animal Farm-like "some are more equal than others" society.

A vast majority of politicians, government officials and people in high ranking places are only able to achieve their positions of power because of their bloodlines.

I was initially suprised at how very xenophobic Thais were when I first came here, but now I don't bat an eyelid when I hear Thais talking about Africans, other Asians and yes mostly us Farangs, in such terms of disdain.

How this thread now has anything to do with the OP, I really don't know. So heading back to the topic....

The PDN article said there was a witness to the girl actually jumping and that testimony will surely shed a very bright light on whether she was pushed or jumped.

And I quote:

"The witnesses on the opposite side of the hotel saw the moment Ms. Ratchanu jumped off, hit a branch of a coconut tree before hitting ground. This probably saved her life."

(Notice the article used the word "jumped"....just sayin'.)

No traces of a fight:

"Mr. David said that he didn’t beat up his girl friend and that she jumped off by her self. They inspected his body but no traces of fighting we’re found."

The hotel/resort room wasn't messed up:

"The hotel room was also inspected but nothing unusual was discovered."

So, to me, it would appear she jumped. Possible attention-seeking behaviour. This is total speculation of course and I'd hold judgement until more facts are available and the direct witness and the other witnesses stories are corborrated and we know more. Nowhere in the PDN aritcle does it say she's a BG. It might seem that that's the case, but hold judgment about that one eh?

At least it didn't end in death and it makes a change from the multitude of farang hotel diving attempts in recent years.

Lastly, to thejcb.

Why do these young blokes come here ? When I first arrived here in 1995 I was considered young at 42. You rarely saw a foreigner under 30 . However, now they come in hordes WHY ?? When I was in my 20's I could always get a bird back home. I can't get one anymore.... well.... one that I would want, so I come here......... But then I am faced with these young <deleted>, what are they doing here ? Go back home and wait until you are 50+ and then return.

That is what Pattaya is for, so the old sods can get a reasonable looking bird. You young <deleted> are spoiling Pattaya and the birds here. The good looking ones are no longer interested in 50+ men and why???? because of these young tossers coming here thinking they are something special and spoiling it.

You who is intimidated by the young turks now coming to Thailand and getting the "birds". You gave me the biggest laugh I've had all year. Saldy not with you, just AT you. I bet you treat women with such charm and romance, don't you? You must be Mr Chivalry of Chivalryland.

Assuming your post is not completely toungue-in-cheek, you're totally deluded. I just turned 30, been here for 7 years, married to a 37 year old Thai for 5 of them and we have 2 children. I read, speak and write Thai and am looking into getting Thai citizenship when I'm elligible. I live in Surat Thani. This make me a <deleted> does it? You can take your stereotype and stick it where the sun don't shine.

I tell you what a <deleted> is, someone who regards and talks about women, the way that you do.

Your post says far more about your inability to attract females and be appealing in any way to the fairer sex (probably as you refer to them as "birds" and think they're objects), and outlines your inferiority complex towards younger males from your own soceity way more than it makes any of us younger fellas over here <deleted>.

What am I doing here? Being a useful member of Thai society, that's what I'm doing here. What are you doing here? Other than picking up sex objects in Pattaya and getting fatter, poorer and older in the process?

If it was all tongue-in-cheek then that's comedy gold my friend and I retract the vitriol.

Get well soon Ms Taweerat.

Whilst I am delighted the girls are in safe hands now and being repatriated to a, no doubt, very safe home with their grandmother, another thought struck me.

Would such a fuss be made if it was a Thai, Laotian, Burmese or Cambodian 11 or 12 year old, doing the same thing?

The really sad answer is, No.

The story here is very unclear about many things, but for me the name Claude de Crissey sounds very French so it seems more than typo error about the native language her from the gazette more than Mr Claude speak Macaroon Arabic(this is as much assumption as your first post!).

Macaroon Arabic!?

A macaroon's a cake isn't it? I wish I could speak cake.

Surely it was Berber that was spoken as an ethnic Moroccan language. Even if France was a major colonial force there, it isn't now and even the Wikipedia entry states that Moroccans speak one of two languages as their mother tongue; Moroccan Arabic or Berber. The original Gazette article which the original post was taken from did say native tongue.

Hats off to VPs for doing something (and getting paid nothing for it) the actual authorities should do anyway. I would assume TP & BiB would have had numerous reports of these two, definitely over an 8 month period. I know, had I seen them, I would have reported it.

I am 100% sure in any major western city red-light district equivalents, 11 and 12 year olds walking around at midnight would be detained and helped very quickly.

Sadly this leads me to believe (I am only speculating) there's a much more sinister aspect to this story, given she was engaging 3 males late at night. I find it hard to believe a 12 year old would do this naturally.

I really hope to be proven wrong about this and hope more details come to light that explain this shocking story in greater and more cheerful clarity.

Apathy is killing this planet and our race. It's very sad to watch.

Whilst Krabi town is nice, it's really not that amazing and very small. I think its most striking features are its cleanliness and for a small Thai town it's maintained relatively well.

The pier area is nice when the night market is out and yes I do like the lamposts and the statue. The river, caves and fishfarms are also really scenic, along with the Krabi's version of the Pillars of Hercules up near the Marina hotel.

Like pomchop said it really caters for Thais and a nice aspect of it is that is isn't infected with the shirtless oiks that tend to invade Ao Nang now.

I always chuckle to myself when I think about the countless number of people that must have tried to book a holiday in Krabi and land in Krabi town thinking "Where's the bloody beach then?" only to find out that what they've seen in brochures is actually 10kms away in Ao Nang.

I disagree with the comments about Lotus, if you mean the Lotus on the Thanon Sri Trang with Big C and all the furniture stores. It's always got foreigners in it. Lots of them.

I lived in Ao Nang for 6 months after living in Surat for 6 years, personal family matters brought me back to Surat, I don't miss Ao Nang at all.

Ao Nang has really really gone down in my estimation in recent years. In fact, I went over the weekend preceding HM's birthday and the thing I enjoyed about it most was the drive in from Krabi through the limestone karsts along that lovely twisting road. I still say that's the best drive you can do in the whole of Thailand. (Even bette on a bike!)

Ao Nang itself is a dive and it's getting worse. The Nepalese seem to be infesting the main drag and my Mum & Dad were told to "<deleted> off" and "yet mae" by one of the vendors there last year and my parents are really polite people. They made the cardinal sin of picking something up and deciding not to buy it as its Chinese/Indian crap. Fortunately my wife was there at the time and the guy nearly got a kicking from the Thais I had with me for being so disrespectful. I can't stand the Nepalese and the Indians in Krabi and wished they really weren't there. They ruin the place. I feel like punching all the suit vendors in the face whenever they call me "Boss." and even when they don't.

It's getting more aggressive and more Americanized. As GOM said, McDonalds, Sevensens, Pizza Co., Burger King, Mexican Restaurants on Walking Street, The Irish Rover, all within spitting distance of each other. I'd even go as far as to say they over shadow the Thai restaurants and if you spent your holiday without finding the nice seafood restaurants at the opposite end of Ao Nang beach, you'd have seriously missed out.

Luna Bar really used to be a great great nightspot and somewhere you could actually dance on the beach in the moonlight with other peopl. The ownership have totally arsed that place up. It has all the atmosphere of a morgue now and there's never anyone in the place.

The 4 Island tours run by the Thais are, very sadly, total garbage designed to give you as little for your money as possible in the shortest amount of time possible.

Another recommendation would be Captain Yum Yum's 7 island tour. That is possibly the last highlight left in the Ao Nang area. He's a big dreadlocked Saffer who really knows the area well and his tour is very very very good and runs totally out of synch with the Thai tours so you miss all the crowds.

If you're looking for somewhere that's much more down-tempo and relaxing, if a little isolated from society, head to Khlong Muang.

It appears to me you have to travel further and further south now to find the more idyllic places. Trang & Satun are really really nice. It won't be long though until these places are turned into mirror images of Phuket & Pattaya.

Sorry this turned into an epic, it appears I had a lot to get off my chest about Ao Nang. Feel much better now.

I've definitely seem them too on Lanta and you're quite right, it's a very very relaxing and awe-inspiring experience just watching them soar.

I nearly always see them where Khlong Hin beach meets Kan Tiang Bay near the southern end of Lanta.

There's an excellent vantage point between the two bays there at Noon Lanta (noonlanta.com I think). It's a really really nice cafe and restaurant there (I'm in no way affiliated with them, I just came across their place by accident and was very impressed.)

I'm off to Lanta again in a week or two with visiting family and will also be staying on Koh Ngai for Xmas day.

It'll be about my 50th visit to Lanta I think and nearly everyone I take there says it's the pick of the tour of southern Thailand I give.

I simply love the place and its surrounding islands. Utterly beautiful and some of the best marine biology you can hope to come across. Koh Rok, Koh Kradan and all the other tiny islands that belong to Trang province are gorgeous too.

How I wish everyday that Lanta is never affected by tourist-associated diseases that affect Phuket, Ao Nang, Samui, et al. I already think it's over-developed and I think the only saving grace it has is that it takes 2 ferries to get there.

The govt have approved a bridge over to the island, but I can't see this actually being completed for another 20 years.

Nice to see someone else spotting the eagles! I thought I had them all to myself!