ManInSurat

Strangely, no.

How stupid? Like for reasons of buying heroine from a dealer and distroying his life, for example?

Sorry, there is no argument. Get caught dealing or doing drugs and you`re owned. Like it or lump it, that`s the way it is. We don`t want their drugs here.

Now try replacing the word heroin or 'drugs' with alcohol, and see how your sentences read. The main difference between heroin and alcohol, is one causes far more harm and deaths than the other. Can you guess which one?

If you don't believe that, then you've been very successfully brainwashed by the alcohol industry's concerted trillion dollar campaign to make their drugs products socially acceptable.

If heroin was distributed as widely, was on sale as cheaply and was as easy to purchase as alcohol is now, we'd all live in "dreamy hippy land" would we? Rubbish.

Proportionately more people use alcohol responsibly than they do heroin. A miniscule amount of heroin users use it recreationally, by and large it's all consuming, almost right from the start.

It's all about proportion here. Use some perspective.

The restriction and destruction of heroin worldwide is a godsend not a curse.

None of what you have said alters the fact that the penalty for being caught smuggling heroin within Thailand's borders is death, life or a ridiculously long prison sentence equating to life and/or death.

I'm not taking issue with the fact that it's illegal to transport heroin in Thailand (btw, did you know that Thailand copies US drug laws note for note?). The debate here isn't whether such 'n such a law exists. The debate, as I see it, is if the penalty matches the crime. I see the penalty for that stupid/greedy woman as overly severe, and therefore cruel. Similarly, there are dozens of young Thai women in HK jails (and other Asian countries) for similar crimes of making a one-time very stupid decision.

If you want to stand in allegiance alongside Thai laws, please answer the following 3 questions, thanks in advance:

>>>>> Why are there no Thai laws compelling deadbeat dads to show any responsibility for date rapes resulting in pregnancy?

>>>> Why are there no Thai laws against harboring a criminal (A Thai attorney told me that).

>>>>> Why is hemp a class-5 drug which can land you in jail? (same as the US, of course).

I never said I stood in allegiance with Thai laws. I accept that those are the repercussions in Thai law as a legal alien. If I were to commit a crime, I would expect to be treated as a Thai would, in that instance. Whether I think it's draconian or not is irrelevant. That's the law. You can't change it by whining about it and you accept that when you come to live, holiday or drug smuggle here.

1. Does the US really have the death penalty for narcotics smuggling? Thailand does. Note for note? I don't agree with that. Not to mention the spate of extra-judicial killings to rein in the rampant drugs trade in 2003. 2,000 - 3,000 people, lots of them innocent murdered without trial or even a chance to explain themselves. This would not happen in the USA. Ok it's out of the justice system, put you must get my point here.

2. From the Thai penal code. "Section 192 Whoever, harboring, hiding or assisting with any means the person escaped from the lawful custody under the power of the Court, inquiry official or official empowered to investigate the criminal cases so as to such person may not be arrested, shall be imprisoned not out of three years or fined not out of six thousand Baht, or both." Maybe you shouldn't trust everything lawyers tell you.

3. Errant fathers, be it through rape or consenting sex are a scourge of most economically developed countries.

4. There's more countries in the world that define marijuana/hemp/cannabis as a class A drug, even handing down the death penalty in extreme cases, than to the contrary.

Mostly I take umbridge with the "It's a child's mistake." It isn't. Not even slightly similar in any way.

She came to Thailand, she broke that law, she should be punished and the punishment should be seen through to the end.

I don't see why this indivdual, by virtue of being an American citizen, should be treated any differently than a Thai would.

Why do they let these scumbags out after only a short time. She didnt care about the problems her actions would inflict on others so she should still be rotting there now!!!

Difficult to empathize. Most people are in prison because they are stupid. Even the smarter crims know how to get off.

Smuggling is just plain wack. Why? Well one reason is they lock you up in horrible conditions and feed you maggots.

What's she moaning about? Lucky to be out after only 9 years. If you can't do the time....don't do the crime.

To all the pontificating holier-than-thou posters: I guess you never made a dumb mistake in your lives, when you were younger, eh?. Life imprisonment (what she got initially) or 9 years is too long a penalty for a dumb-ass mistake, or for being stupid one time (as the poster claims, above). If your kid does something stupid, do you lock him in the bathroom for a month? Didn't think so.

Society has very successfully gotten everyone to think of heroin as absolutely evil incarnate. How much worse is an opiate like heroin, than alcoholic drinks? One causes profoundly more harm and misery and deaths than the other. Can you guess which one? One reason alcohol is accepted, is because most lawmakers (including Chalerm) are hard drinkers. Another reason, is the well heeled alcohol lobby makes sure that only ONE recreational drug is legal, and demonizes all the others.

Their campaign has worked great on the 'hang 'em high' brigade. Have any of you ever tried heroin? I have, and it's a mellowing soothing drug, I've also drunk wine, beer, and the hard stuff, and can tell anyone who wants to listen, that alcohol is much more debilitating than heroin. I've even driven 1,000 miles at night on heroin, and it was a breeze the whole way. Try driving 1,000 miles at night drunk. Totally different, and you'll probably kill a few people along the way.

None of what you have said alters the fact that the penalty for being caught smuggling heroin within Thailand's borders is death, life or a ridiculously long prison sentence equating to life and/or death.

She's lucky that to curry favour with the US, Thailand has a lovely prisoner exchange system. If she was a citizen of an African country, there would be no exchange. There really shouldn't be one.

Lastly, a dumb mistake? Knowingly becoming a drugs mule for $50,000? In Asia? That's not a dumb mistake, that's Darwinism in action. How you manage to equate this to the misbehaviour of a child and their admonishing and/or punishment, I have no idea. Quite bizarre. That's the thing with children, they tend to be oblivious to the concepts of right and wrong for most of their childhood. This was a fully cognicent adult woman undertaking a heroin trafficking mission with the aim of financial reward. They couldn't be any more different.

I'll freely admit that alcohol kills more people and is a much more "dangerous" and expensive "drug". More people have access to it as it's not under the same global restriction as heroin is. If heroin were as freely available as alcohol is, could it not be said that vastly more people will succumb death through the diseases and overdosing that happens a lot in the current heroin using communities worldwide?

The fact is it's legal here and heroin isn't. Heroin gets you in massive trouble, as a user, transporter or seller nearly everywhere in the world. Nothing you're saying makes this any different.

I'll also add that proportionately, on a global scale, people manage to use alcohol (remember proportionately) much more responsibly than heroin.

That's the thing with heroin, it's a bit moreish and is often used as a good example of a very very fasting acting physically addictive drug.

Basically, we should ban everything. We're too irresponsible! No we're just all children making silly mistakes! Aren't we?

She was guilty of committing a crime that carries those heavy offences in this country. You can't get away from this fact however you try.

If you don't want to be treated in an extremely harsh way, go commit your crimes in Norway or Holland!

Thailand does not preach to the US about its perceived lax or heavy-handed sentencing. I never hear Thais ever mention such things.

Why do you insist that it's draconic here? It's Thailand's laws, it applies to everyone. Not just this lady.

Enough with the apologists already!

I'd love to be able to say that we should all be allowed to choose what drugs we take, how we treat our bodies (even if it's dangerous and likely to kill us). I should have the right to choose. I completely agree with this tenet.

The sad truth here is that heroin is used to bring vulnerable people into a miserable subservient existence that makes them a mere husk of a human being. It exposes you, dramatically more than normally living life would, to AIDS, Hep C and all the other known diseases. The same can't be said of alcohol. Also, a pregnant mother who becomes addicted to heroin, can not only pass on the AIDS she contracted through a needle to an unborn child, but the addiction itself too. But as you said, it's just a harmless opiate equivalent to some weed or a beer, isn't it?

It's almost impossible to take heroin recreationally, although exceptions do exist, like yourself it would seem. For children, the weak, the vulnerable, there's no such arrangement.

She broke the law

She received the prescribed punishment

Som Nom Na!

More like ... Som Nom Nom Nom Nom Nom Nom Nom Nom everything that moves ... for 9 years!

Also, it's "Som nam naa", there's no nomming involved! The word nam there is that of water, although it does not mean water when used with the word naa (face).

Nam naa or น้ำหน้า is a insulting word for the face or someone's appearance.

I wouldn't say "som nam naa" is applicable here. 9 years? Not even close to long enough, considering where she committed the crime and how blasé she seems to be about trying to import class A drugs and then having the audacity to bleat on about how hard done by she is.

Like when she first committed the crime, all she's after is money. Money was the motivating factor in the criminal offense and it's the motivating factor with appearing in the documentary and all this digusting publicity.

I take exception to the "I've broken up with someone so the next logical thing to do is to become a heroin mule." line. BS.

You're a greedy b*tch and 9 years in a Thai prison couldn't even show you the merest ounce of humility or teach you to keep your porcine face out of the media spotlight.

I can't stand these people and recovered drug addicts that publicize their experiences for financial gain and/or adulation (Russell Brand).

I haven't been arrested for any misdemeanours in my life, I've never been addicted to drugs to recover from them.

Where's my frigging awards, sympathy, book deals, TV shows and profits? I don't have any and nor should I for going through life in a non-criminal and drug-free fashion.

"Moon-faced lady gets to watch industrial enemas."

No one seems to have mentioned the fact that with a squat toilet they don't normally have bum guns, so you're left with the lovely process of using your hand to clean yourself with the aid of some plastic tupperware and rarely any paper, unless you take some with you.

This wouldn't be much of a problem if there was a nice place to clean your hands afterwards, but in most Wats, markets, state schools, small eateries, rural houses, etc, that is definitely not the case. Thinking about all the fecal matter still left on the hands and under the nails of the millions of people that must use squatters everyday makes me really really squeamish.

They've almost definitely made your food, on far more than one occasion.

A sit-down and a bum gun is my most pleasing experience, people may say they're unhygenic, put scraping the poo from your hole with your hands is that much better is it? Makes me shudder.

I think the truth is, if you could see the bacteria that you ingested everyday, you would be unlikely to eat anything. One test showed that on average a bowl of peanuts or nibbles in a bar that you have with your beer can contain up to 70 different peoples urinary bacteria. I have however become paranoid about when people come up to my kids and put their hands all over their faces saying how beautiful they are. You don't know who they are, where they have been or what illnesses they are currently carrying.

Yeah, I love the old "peanuts on the bar" scare story.

This is the modern version of that and much more relevant here.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7377002.stm

How many are now thinking about buying a new keyboard? Go on, admit it!

Like you inferred Jim, I think it's just best to mentally block it out somehow. It's highly statiscally unlikely we'll die or even get slightly ill from it. The alternative is getting all Howard Hughes and whilst I'd love to have his riches, I still want to play with my marbles for a while longer!

P.S. I will never see the act of cleaning your bum with your hand and just a bowl of dirty water as a sensible thing to do, as long as I live.

Congrats to Kaew, it's still a fanstastic achievement to do what he did. Boxing's notorious for some of the most outrageous moments in Olympic history, for judging and bad behaviour.

I still find this remarkable... http://www.youtube.c...?v=mO_Aspbv0fw. Koreans do have a tendency to go mental from time to time!

Regarding the ceremonies, I loved the opening and was really proud to be British that day and all through the record medal haul. The pantheon of music greats and nice little touches were well handled by Danny Boyle, as you'd expect them to be and were things that could have only come from a British mind and humour. If you don't get parts of it, we don't really care. We get it and that's all that matters to us. Rowan Atkinson as Bean was thoroughly entertaining as ever and to get the Queen to appear as an actress for the first time in history has to be the cinematic coup of the century.

I have to admit the closing ceremony wasn't very good. The Spice Girls were annoying at the height of their fame, let alone in their post-fame obscurity, it just smacked of desperation. There was one massive plus in Ray Davies performing "Waterloo Suset". I loved that. I wish I had swtiched off after that as most of it was quite cringeworthy, but hey we'd already done the job and did what everyone thought was impossible, we managed to follow up Beijing, where many people said it couldn't be done. China may have been jaw-dropping in its scale and immensity, but they don't even come close to our wealth of film, musical, literary, industrial figures, present and throughout history. British culture is one of the most far-reaching on the planet and it makes me really proud that people from all over the world love our icons. It's just a tiny rock in the North Atlantic, with crappy weather and bland food!

I still don't get the ban on passengers consuming alcohol in private vehicles, travelling or not. Alright I can stretch to travelling, as you can be a danger to people I suppose. Stationary though, parked at a park or the beach? That's ridiculous.

Irrespective I can happily say I broke this law yesterday, totally oblivious to the fact that I was breaking it. 160kms from Krabi to Surat with the missus driving, there's no way I'm not going to have a beer. I'll do it again, even now I know the law.

Similarly to another comment here, if you were to drive along Ao Nang's Nopparat Thara beachfront yesterday on HM Queen's Day and saw how many Thais were in the back of their pick ups consuming large amounts of alcohol, I didn't see one BiB in sight all day, let alone enforcing this ridculous law.

It's laughable, much like the 2pm - 5pm and 12am - 11am laws. If you can't get a drink within those hours in Thailand, then you're definitely doing something wrong. I know of no example of prosecution with this stupid law. 3 of the 5 7-Elevens in Ao Nang sell alcohol within these times. Every side-soi I've ever been in has someone that won't even bat an eyelid, perhaps even think you strange, if you don't buy alcohol within the prohibited times.

Like with most laws, there'll be no enforcement, unless someone's missing a few baht from the local Rong Pak.

Oh and don't get me started on a 2-day blanket drinks ban during government elections. HM King's birthday and religious festivals like Wan Sakhapucha, I abide in public personally out of respect and can understand.

On the face of it, it really does just look like an another easy way for the BiB to be able to make a bigger pot of tea for themselves, mostly with unwitting holidaymakers.

No one seems to have mentioned the fact that with a squat toilet they don't normally have bum guns, so you're left with the lovely process of using your hand to clean yourself with the aid of some plastic tupperware and rarely any paper, unless you take some with you.

This wouldn't be much of a problem if there was a nice place to clean your hands afterwards, but in most Wats, markets, state schools, small eateries, rural houses, etc, that is definitely not the case. Thinking about all the fecal matter still left on the hands and under the nails of the millions of people that must use squatters everyday makes me really really squeamish.

They've almost definitely made your food, on far more than one occasion.

A sit-down and a bum gun is my most pleasing experience, people may say they're unhygenic, put scraping the poo from your hole with your hands is that much better is it? Makes me shudder.

Lol, satellite dishes/cable are so passé.

True are diabolical in every sense of the word. They actively seem to be trying to destroy their farang customer base as much as possible. Long may it continue. They don't deserve to profit from us for such a lacking service.

The fact people have said they've already put away their GMM boxes is very unsurprising. What a waste of money. GMM management will be looking at the True behemoth and be trying to emulate them and all their business practices, whilst waging petty wars and grudge matches with them at the same time. What a lovely position for the clientele to be in!

What amazes me is that you fellas haven't worked out how to use the internet yet, to fulfill all your television needs. All countries, all channels, all major sporting events, all in HD. Easily found.

It's all there, with small fees included, if you get the right things. Cheaper than subscriber packages that you're tied down to for months, cheaper than the shitty boxes you get and have to eventually return.

If you're out in the sticks with poor internet choices then I feel for you. If you're in a internet friendly area and are dependent on the Thais for your TV, then I really feel for you too. If you're having to get hooked up with Astro, which I understand is a bit of a headache as they're Malaysian, I equally feel for you.

Learn how to use the internet to get what you need and drop 'em. They don't deserve your hard-earned money.

I've used the internet to watch television in HD for several years now at 1/3 or less of the cost of a contract monthly and I'm never tied into it.

(I can't go into great detail in this thread about what you can do as TV rules don't allow it. My friends P. Roxy, V. P. Enn. and X. Patty V., can all help you though if you need it.)

RT @veen_NT: NBTC Natee has reassured that there won't be "blocked screen" for the Olympics 2012 broadcast. via @noomniim @supinya

Lol, "reassured". Oh, OK then. Reassured as in Euro 2012 reassured? Or reassured as in actually reassured.

(You could easily swap in the word "lied" for "reassured" there and it'd be perfectly acceptable.)

Thankfully, I have acquired *ahem* "TV of an Expatriate kind in LOS", Olympics will be great and I don't have to rely on a bunch of money-grabbing liars to block my service. I'll get BBC commentary and build-ups, it won't be interrupted by adverse weather conditions in Thailand. Yay!

Wimbledon was wonderful to watch this way, as was Euro 2012.

Lie all you want fat cats, I don't need you anymore.

I dispensed with True ages ago. IPM/Samart for the wife and the internet gets me absolutely everything I could ever need. All terrestrial and satellite UK & US channels, every major film, documentary, sporting event, TV series. It's all there if you go out and find it and sometimes pay the small fees required to be able to do it. Admittedly it requires a fast-ish internet connection (not always), but that's available in most places in LOS, if you're willing to pay for it.

True seems to be on intent on destroying their foreign customer base and I hope the farangs terminate in their droves. They really deserve it.

Surely the onus is on the traveller to learn about certain aspects of the culture of the country they are visiting? If not for reasons of being the model tourist, but at least for you own personal safety?

I'd be so thankful I managed to get my passport back, knowing the headache that will ensue. What's 100 dollars for forgetting your passport? I'd pay that in an instant. Even give it as a reward.

No one ever deserves extreme physical violence. Certainly not after being stolen from, but simply knowing the fact that getting aggressive and in the face of all SEAsians in general, could result in extreme violence, very often with a weapon as they lack the ability to overpower anyone physically, well that could save your life. Certainly if you back anyone into a corner and scare them into reacting in some way. What's the outcome going to be?

I remember, before I made my first visit here, I did a lenghty read on cultural sensitivities. Don't touch their head. Take off your shoes. Women don't approach monks or touch them. Cover up bare arms and legs in temples. And I distinctly remember, never get aggressive or lose your temper and shout as being the one they really tried to hammer home. Since I read that, I've never ever raised my voice to a Thai I don't know in anger. And very very rarely to those I do know. Some people argue it's repressing and is bad for your mental health, but hey, Thailand isn't in the West and their religion plays a large part in tempraments.

I wish this compatriot a very speedy recovery. This could have easily been avoided with a bit of Rough Guide style reading up on the place.

I'd also like to remind people of the case of the Thai BKK taxi driver that returned something like half a million baht, in cash, to a Burmese HiSo last year, that she absentmindedly left in his cab. Story here.

Human decency is alive and well in LOS.

I have tried all of the pizza in Krabi Town. Here is the deal:

Pizza Company - 100% crap. But it's got air-con, salad bar and endless refills on root beer - nice perks for the weary traveler. If you must eat their pizza, get the double cheese, their toppings are ALL canned. If processed, assembly-line, franchized pizza funded by corporations which run national tv commercials and stuff the crust with cheese that would make an Italian grandmother turn over in her grave does not bother you, this is the pizza for you.

Firenze - awesome pizza, and the owner is a cool Italian guy with a mustache that makes you think you have just landed in Rome.

Viva - good pizza, and as a side note the same recipe has been passed to Joy Bugalow on Koh Jum. If you ever make it there, the pizza on that tiny little island is actually somehow better than the mainland version.

Tamarind - surprisingly awesome for a non-Italian restaurant with non-Italian owners.

There's one other one near the night market that's not bad, and a new one near the lip stick guest house that isn't bad either. Good Dream guest house also has pizza that's not too shabby.

Now tell me where I can get a juicy, American beef burger on a grill and I'm listening. Fast food doesn't count!

Why would you have to land in Rome...why not Firenze?!

Well, Firenze is called Florence in English and not everyone knows that. Thanks for the fastidious pedantic nitpicking on your 3rd post though, with someone only trying to be complimentary to Italy! Nice one!

I'm sorry but anyone who thinks Pizza Co. (1112) make good Pizzas must have had their tastsebuds chemically burned off. They are hideous. The "cheeze" they use is that Kraft synthetic muck. I can just about abide them on burgers, but as the focal ingredient of your pizza is totally ruins it.

It's all frozen and basically nuked anyway. Look in the kitchen if you ever get a chance. No prep of any kind. The same is identical for Pizza Hut here in Surat too. I actually went in their kitchens while they were nuking any remaining taste out of my Pizza (as they thought it was cool to have a farang around the place for an hour.) I can 100% confirm it's all frozen and just chucked in an oven and they're awful awful pizzas to begin with.

Don't even get me started on the pasta and pastabakes they make. Dear lord. I have to agree with the purists here, if you want Kraft cheeze, inside a Frankenfurter inside more Kraft cheeze inside a crispy super cheezy max crust, you're no longer eating a pizza. It's insulting to the idea of a pizza. It's a Franken-Pizza and hurts way more coming out than any other non-spicy food known to man.

My input for Ao Nang - My little gem is Titti Guesthouse's owner's pizzas. He's Italian (I want to say his name is Marco - someone please correct me if I'm wrong) and does a fantastic job, proper thin-crust, home-made tomato base, real cheese, real herbs and oven cooked served up steaming on traditional wood tray! I think he opened up a trattoria a little bit further down the main drag too from his hotel, which I have yet to dine at so can't comment. The pizza at his B&B though is sublime.

Oh and nice heads up about the proper burgers at the Rover! Shame the new owners killed the atmosphere when it changed hands. I went in a week after, around Songkran I think it was and it was dead, really dark and the staff seemed totally uninterested - really out of character for that place.

Willing to give it another try in the pursuit of that burger though! Hope they honour my "15% off food regulars card" I got from the nice lady that ran it with her farang husband before!! (Never did get to know his name.)

Who am I kidding, they're the only joint that has a passable Guinness on tap in the whole province! Alright there's Paddy's, but I never actually see anyone in the Khlong Muang place. I've been in 6 times I'd say and every time I was the only customer. Great for service and the views are lovely, but how they can turn a profit on that, I have no idea.

I'm lying to myself that I won't be the Rover when I make the permanent move to Ao Nang in 5 months time! If anyone wants me I'll be the one in the corner reeking of stout, slipping off the edge of his perilously high barstool, grumbling into his pint incoherently about the dismal state of franchised pizza eateries in the Kingdom of Thailand!

Oh and the curry pizza! What a notion! So trying that. You didn't say what type of curry it was. There's loads of Indians in the area, so did you mean a Thai curry or another fare? Sounds cool though, whichever it is.

Viva La Pizza Thread! Viva Krabi!

some islamic law in the south could be appropriate... steal once... there flies your hand, steal twice, there goes the other one, murder and get your head cut off

Agreed,and rape someone and get your member removed. Man ,if US did that who would be left to breed?

Are you drunk Brian? You just accused every man in the US of being a rapist? What? I don't even...

What?

Take this nonsense off here please!

Why do some TV posters want to spend so much time making multiple postings on a thread like this?

Ghoulish.

Coming on a forum in the middle of the night to point out the perceived faults of other people and not showing any form of condolence towards the OP? That's not "ghoulish" is it?

We can't have a discussion about accident saftey in a thread about a road accident in Thailand? No one's getting out of hand or being disrepectful. Everyone seems to have handled themself with decorum as should be the case.

It's a forum where people exchange ideas and try and be respectful to one another. People did die in the accident and no one's allowed to talk about it? I don't understand.

Show some respect yourself and other people might do the same.

There is a big difference in regards to a Bus and Airplane. The requirement and the safety with a commericai aircraft being fllow is not even comparable! There are so many check and balances which thank god is out of the hands of the Thai officials.

You do start to wonder though. I do anyway. I mean Thailand does have laws on all of these things - speed limits, condition of vehicle including tyre wear, vehicle construction, number of passengers, motorbike helmets etc etc. They are just so many ideas which are totally ignored.

I expect planes are held to a higher standard, but seeing the absolute disregard that many people have for the laws on the roads, and the total disinterest of the police in enforcing them, then why will it be any different at the airport?

Because the planes bringing people into the country would not be allowed to leave and/or land in most (if not all) major European/American/Australian airports, presenting a serious problems in getting the millions of tourists out of and into the country. There are lots of commercial airlines worldwide that are banned from major Western countries' airspace for the reasons of their planes not being up to the strict safety requirements.

Regardles, this an RTA. Not an aviation accident. It's not relevant and has gone off topic.

Yeah but I'm talking about domestic flights, Nok Air, Thai domestic etc. Are they held to the same standard in any way?

Well if you want to continue down Soi Off Topic, I'll answer your question. I don't see domestic flights falling out of the sky on a regular basis and if anything the amount of domestic flights has dramatically increased with Thaiand's popularity as a tourist destination. Not to mention that lots of regional airports, like Krabi and Phuket have international destinations now.

Since 1991, there have been 4 commercial plane crashes in Thailand. (Source) Of the two I was here to witness, via the news coverage on TV/here and in person in Surat, wind shear was a major cause in the Phuket accident and Surat's more recent accident had 1 fatality - the pilot.

I'm not an expert on domestic aircraft safety regulation, so I won't speculate about that, but the statistics here lead me to believe they are held to a high standard.

Also, as another member said quite rightly, many things have to fail in order for a plane to crash. The safety and backups and training are extremely rigorous.

Bringing it back to the topic of roads, where we really should be, on my way to pick up the kids from school, I saw 5 bikes pass me where not one of the children driving was over 12. I know this as they attend the same school as my son. None were wearing helmets. None of their (in some cases 4) passengers were either and they must have been doing over 60km/h in a built up residential area and the 2 traffic policemen stationed on the road their school is on both ignored them completely.

Anyone who's anyone can get a lisence here, not that they're even checked regularly, and it's so easy for something to go wrong and it often does. There's no backup, that backup the backups for road users here.

There is a big difference in regards to a Bus and Airplane. The requirement and the safety with a commericai aircraft being fllow is not even comparable! There are so many check and balances which thank god is out of the hands of the Thai officials.

You do start to wonder though. I do anyway. I mean Thailand does have laws on all of these things - speed limits, condition of vehicle including tyre wear, vehicle construction, number of passengers, motorbike helmets etc etc. They are just so many ideas which are totally ignored.

I expect planes are held to a higher standard, but seeing the absolute disregard that many people have for the laws on the roads, and the total disinterest of the police in enforcing them, then why will it be any different at the airport?

Because the planes bringing people into the country would not be allowed to leave and/or land in most (if not all) major European/American/Australian airports, presenting a serious problems in getting the millions of tourists out of and into the country. There are lots of commercial airlines worldwide that are banned from major Western countries' airspace for the reasons of their planes not being up to the strict safety requirements.

Regardles, this an RTA. Not an aviation accident. It's not relevant and has gone off topic.

If only Thailand could just bite a bullet and upgrade it's rail network to cover more/all of the country, including to its ferry terminals. Large swathes of Thailand have no form of rail at all. It's totally bizarre. The investment made today will bring large profits and dividends in the future not only from tourism, but from industry and give people a much safer (albeit noisy and slower) alternative to getting around. People will still take buses, but surely it'd decrease the ridiculously large amount RTA and farang-RTA fatalities in a big way.

100% agree, good point.

Trains are much safer, unless....................http://en.tengrinews.kz/opinion/176/

Not wanting to go too off topic here, but I'd argue that rail accidents are much like aircraft accidents in the respect that they cause a large number of people to lose life in one event and as such are much more shocking and stick in the mind indelibly.

I'm sure they must be safer statistically, even on a global scale when compared to RTAs, even in the "third world" and a quick peruse of Google backs this up.

The question as to why they don't invest was rhetorical. I am not here to bash the country I love, I really want to see it change for the better, it has such great potential and there seems to be so many deaths here that could easily be avoided.

The loss of human life here on the road is staggering. 6 years and I've been to 16 RTA-related funerals, including a very close family member.

I wish they'd do something to stop it.

There is a big difference in regards to a Bus and Airplane. The requirement and the safety with a commericai aircraft being fllow is not even comparable! There are so many check and balances which thank god is out of the hands of the Thai officials.

As for doing something it not that they can't the people in charge don't want because they don't see anything wrong with their system. The same people we are asking to do something are the people. Have you ever seen the police drive breaking all the rules they are expected to enforce? Have you seen the people working in government offices drive? One has to recognize there is a problem and imbrace the needed changes.

You didn't read why we were talking about aircraft. Of course the aircraft are safe, they have to comply with Western standards otherwise the millions of tourists wouldn't be able to come here by plane as there's stringent rules on which aircraft are allowed to land in most economially-developed countries.

I was simply saying the rail network should be upgraded and it would make massive profit in the future with tourism and industry/commerce. I still think that's a valid point and would reduce deaths on the road dramatically.

They have to actually know there's things drastically wrong with the system. Abhisit, Takhsin and Yingluck, to cite examples have spent large amounts of time out of the country in economically developed countries to know this. You're not going to convince me they don't know, in their heart of hearts, that things could be a lot better if small effort was made.

If you argued bureaucracy gets in the way, well yes, it definitely does. To say that the people in power, who make the decisions, don't know there's serious deeply-ingrained problems in this country. I don't believe that.

Your average "Joe the plumber" yes, more often than not they are obilivous, as that's the picture they are painted.

Anyway, I don't want to politicize this thread.

I just want the government to take some simple and effective steps to make the road safer. I'm allowed to dream.

The question as to why they don't invest was rhetorical. I am not here to bash the country I love, I really want to see it change for the better, it has such great potential and there seems to be so many deaths here that could easily be avoided.

The loss of human life here on the road is staggering. 6 years and I've been to 16 RTA-related funerals, including a very close family member.

I wish they'd do something to stop it.

Worldwide there are 1.2 Million Deaths and 50 Million injuries on the roads, we can all have thoughts of a perfect world were nobody has accidents, but it will never happen.

If you took away Thailands death toll and injury toll, you would still be left with a staggering amount.

From the global total? Well yes, obviously.

I'm more concerned about Thailand as it's where I spend all of my time, where I'm a daily road-user and where my children are being raised.

Any loss of life is sad, I can't argue that point. But I'm not asking for some accident-less utopia either. Human error and recklessness will always exist until the whole world has computerized transport infrastructures and vehicles. Even then accidents would occur.

What I'd really like to see is some very simple and effective measures the gov't can undertake to drastically reduce the amount of totally unnecessary death that occurs in large numbers every day. I don't want to get into another statistics war, but if you could take true, real figures Thailand has to have one of the highest RTA fatality numbers in the world and that's where I live. Something I didn't realise until the other day is that if death occurs more than 24 hours after an RTA, it isn't counted in official statistics. Well that's how I understood it. That's insane.

Of course, implementing the tiniest changes on a national scale would cost money, mean police forces would need to be pro-active and enforce the law and it's just never going to happen with the way things are in this country right now.

That's a sad sad truth.

(Edit: sp)

If only Thailand could just bite a bullet and upgrade it's rail network to cover more/all of the country, including to its ferry terminals. Large swathes of Thailand have no form of rail at all. It's totally bizarre. The investment made today will bring large profits and dividends in the future not only from tourism, but from industry and give people a much safer (albeit noisy and slower) alternative to getting around. People will still take buses, but surely it'd decrease the ridiculously large amount RTA and farang-RTA fatalities in a big way.

100% agree, good point.

Trains are much safer, unless....................http://en.tengrinews.kz/opinion/176/

Not wanting to go too off topic here, but I'd argue that rail accidents are much like aircraft accidents in the respect that they cause a large number of people to lose life in one event and as such are much more shocking and stick in the mind indelibly.

I'm sure they must be safer statistically, even on a global scale when compared to RTAs, even in the "third world" and a quick peruse of Google backs this up.

The question as to why they don't invest was rhetorical. I am not here to bash the country I love, I really want to see it change for the better, it has such great potential and there seems to be so many deaths here that could easily be avoided.

The loss of human life here on the road is staggering. 6 years and I've been to 16 RTA-related funerals, including a very close family member.

I wish they'd do something to stop it.

According to the report in today's Matichon, the bus left the Southern bus terminal in BKK at 8pm on 02/07/12 heading south to Surat Thani.

Early next morning on the 3rd at about 5:30 am there was a loud bang like a tyre bursting and the bus lost control hitting a tree on a traffic island. It was knocked over to its LHS before ploughing into into an electricity pole and flipping over by a petrol station.

One female Thai passenger from Koh Samui who was injured but survived the crash gave an eyewitness report of what happened:

"After the bus stopped in Thap Sakae district in Prachuap Khiri Khan province there was a change of drivers. The new driver drove at high speed leaving many passengers unable to sleep. One foreigner got up and asked the driver to slow down but he didn't take any notice.

From about 3:00 am onwards passengers were unable to sleep because the whole bus was shaking and vibrating. Then as the accident happened and I noticed the bus begin to lose control, I bent down and braced myself behind the cushion in front of me until there was the sound of a loud crash followed by lots of cries for help."

http://www.matichon....atid=&subcatid=

Driving fast enough to vibrate and shake the bus and at night and totally ignoring pleas to slow down? It's a very well known fact that the once legal "Ya Ba" was the staple of drivers needing to stay alert to complete long-distance journeys. High possibility he was jacked. Will this be followed up? Do they do blood testing in cases like this? I have no idea.

So very sad. Such a totally avoidable loss of life knowing that the driver was going unecessarily fast and even being warned about his driving.

If only Thailand could just bite a bullet and upgrade it's rail network to cover more/all of the country, including to its ferry terminals. Large swathes of Thailand have no form of rail at all. It's totally bizarre. The investment made today will bring large profits and dividends in the future not only from tourism, but from industry and give people a much safer (albeit noisy and slower) alternative to getting around. People will still take buses, but surely it'd decrease the ridiculously large amount of RTA and farang-RTA fatalities in a big way.

My sincere condolences to the families of those affected.

Phuket is a provence, not a city, of well over 500,000 people according to the last census. At the peak of tourist season some estimates put the population as high as one million. I've been to both places as well. There are parts of Phuket that are very quiet and then there are some main tourist areas. Krabi is also a provence, as well there is a city named Krabi. So of course there will be a higher crime rate in the smallest, area wise provence, with a large population that comes from all other parts of Thailand and the world. So quite comparing apples to oranges and constantly ragging about how bad crime is here because of a few articles that have been in the news lately. Yes, there are a lot of problems with public transit and other issues that haven't been dealt with for many years, which is another long topic onto itself.

It sounds as though the police have caught the suspects. The one accused of murder is from Nakhon Sri Thammarat, by the way. It seems as though I have read many times that perpetuators of crimes on Phuket seem to come here from that area.

Phuket Province Population: 348,504

Krabi Province Population: 432,704

You could say the population density is higher, sure. So what? It's very high in Singapore and Liechtenstein.

But please do quote me your source. I'd like to see your figures there.

Not doubting that Phuket has the more tourist visitors. To be frank it can keep them. I'm happy with this arrangement.

We're not talking about tourist on toursit violent crime here, we're talking about Thai on farang crime. That's what this story is about. (If we did include farang on farang crime, well then the it makes Phuket much more dangerous.)

They are not apples and oranges, they're neighboring provinces, and cities (if you mean Krabi Town and Phuket City) that are about 180kms from each other by road and much less as the crow flies, that have the same types of people and both attract a vast amount of tourists every year. In terms of climate, culture, language, topography and every other aspect, they're very similar. They're mandarins and satsumas, if you're going to use some artistic lisence.

I don't care where the people come from. They could come from the very northern tip of Thailand and it's not going to alter the fact they're perpetrating the crimes on Phuket Island and obviously it's seen as the place to come if you're into that kind of thing, for the surrounding provinces.

That still statisitcally makes you much more likely to be the victim of a violent crime there.

The busiest places aren't the quiet places and vice versa? Well, yeah obviously. I'd have thought that the majority of crime would be centralized around Patong and Phuket City. It's still on Phuket. From my experience of working in tourism for 15 years, you average tourist does not inform themself of the places "off the beaten track" they'll go to Phuket and gravitate towards Patong and the City and think that's Phuket. We know it's a whole island with lots of different types of paces of life. Average Joe? No, he doesn't. Rest of the watching world and media? They don't either.

You can try be evasive by using geography if you want and while we're on the subject, can we dispense with the geography lessons please? I've got Google Maps and Wikipedia and know the local names and terminology for the towns, provinces and cities.

It's not a "a few articles that have been in the news lately" you can't make a throwaway comment like that.

There's almost no incidences I can ever think of extremely high-profile, Thailand-tarnishing news stories, that have a negative impact on the whole country's tourism that come out of Krabi. There's a neverending stream from Phuket. It's not just recently or in the low season, it's all the time.

This story is being carried by major news networks around the world, it's making television and it's not suprising that is is. This is not the first time this has happened.

Why is there a need for a "Crackdown on Mafia Targeting Tourists" - a directive from Chalerm to try and stop the adverse effect this is having on Phuket's and susequently the rest of the country's tourism? There's a thread about it that's still on the front page.

I've never ever recalled diplomats of foreign nations threatening punitive action to Krabi, by warning their residents not to come to Krabi as the Dutch diplomat Joan Boer did recently in a sitdown with Phuket Governor Tri Augkaradacha. I can remember other diplomatic figures doing the same in recent months. FOs will end up putting Phuket on watchlists. It deserves it.

There's a serious problem there. You seem to be the only person I've met here insisting that isn't the case. Even the Thai government are admitting it. They can do something about it if they choose to, but that means tackling some really tough and political problems that are deeply ingrained there. Thailand never does the "fire everyone, wash it all out and start again". People are moved around and shuffled.

It's cool. You love Phuket a lot. I get that. You can keep it. I want to stay alive when I go on my holidays and definitely where I call home and raise my children.

To be honest, as a falang woman considering visiting Phuket in November, I did watch it. Not to be disrespectful of the women or their families, but to see what I need to be watching out for. I couldn't quite tell how she was wearing her purse strap from that clip. Was it slung over one shoulder, or did she have it slung across her chest? Does that make a difference for these purse snatchers?

<snip>

Krabi does have its very isolated criminal incidents, but attacks of this nature are incredibly rare.

<snip>

Like in March 2012 when three German women were attacked and one had her thumb severed in a purse snatch? I can't post a link to the article here on TV due to forum rule 31.

Post some evidence that Krabi is statistically more dangerous than Phuket. That'll clear up any confusion. If you want to try and assert the statement that Krabi's more dangerous than Phuket, argue with yourself. It's a pointless discussion as it's just not true.

I'm not denying there are crimes there. Ocsasionally against tourists, we're in Thailand not Antartica. I am insisting that they occur with much less frequency than in Phuket. I cannot recall for over 5 years as a TV user the headline stories that attract all the attention, being about violent crime and certainly not frequent murder (even if it is chalked up as a "suicide") coming from Krabi and you know this yourself to be true. I can cite all the evidence from TV articles against the ones you can find and we'll tot them all up shall we? I'd love to, but I don't have the time. Krabi is synonymous with "Sleepyville, Thailand" according to nearly everyone I've ever talked to who's visited and that's a lot of people.

EDIT : Ok, actually, know what? I'm bored of the "my favourite city is better than your favourite city in Thailand" back and forth game this is becoming. Krabi's quiet. It's not a lie. I've been to both places. I know the reality. I'll leave forum readers and the public to make up their own minds.

Let's get back on topic and relate to the OP in someway. I'll admit I've helped bring it off topic. I should know better.

Controversially!!!!!..............I agree for now.................however!!!!.................complacency will undo Thailand.

In the medium to long term Burma will build the infrastructure required to damage Thai tourism, that will take time though. Thailand should be using that time to ensure that they are giving better customer service and a better product to tourists, in preparation for certain competition.

We know that's what they should be doing, we also know there is no chance of Thailand doing that. There will be trouble ahead.

Also the service that is available in Thailand will become harder to find as The Burmese return to their homeland. There will be a large shortage of workers. For every two Burmese that leave the work force they will need three to replace them. Maybe 4

Yes it will take time for the Burmese to get set up but in the mean time Thailand will do nothing to prepare for it.

Not to mention the cost of having to pay a Thai the legal minimum wage, compared to what the Burmese get.

That's quite a good point mate. It's not like they can draw on migrant workers from other places in the region either. The Burmese are their last "modern day slave labourers" to use some artistic lisence.

Also when you start to have all the menial jobs in your country taken over by underpaid migrant workers, your own population starts to become disinterested in that job and views it as "beneath" them.

It's going to be analogous to the Mexicans flooding back over the border from Arizona, New Mexico and the southern states, leaving crops unpicked and large corporations out of pocket.

I can see that happening, maybe not for a while, but it's a definite possibility.