IsaanAussie

If your 7 dry rai stays that way through the wet season, then I would think seriously about growing fodder grasses and anything else that cattle will eat and fixes nitrogen. People are always looking for grazing for their cows while the rice is in their ground.

You can get innoculants specific to the crop at most feed and grain stores where you buy the seed.

Not specific to MS but generally you will find it hard to get more than an NPK test in Isaan. Dr Treelove made a suggestion of sending soil samples to the US and posted details of how to do it, have a look at that.

Most eucalyptus is cut by operators who negotiate a total price. To locate one of these guys try talking to the local building supplier, he will probably buy from them.

So, we all understand the issue is real and makes things very tough. So what can be done about it?

In my case I do as much as I can personally and when the wife can muster up some help for me there is always something they can do.

This year we will sow rice as usual but under protest as we will be pillaged by the locals at harvest time as usual. This year it will be expensive. All I can do is wait as long as possible until the queues shorten. Have to admit it has occurred to me to wait too long and miss out. Wait until Noah paddles past would suit me down to the ground.

Loong,

As I understand it there are two bokashi products involved. First is the compost starter, which is fermented with rice bran etc. That you spread or mix into your compost materials, it is fermentation so should be anaerobic, in the field by covering with a tarp or bags. It is not thermophillic composting and the material is not fully decomposed. That is why it is buried in the garden.

IA

Mr Ploppy

I take your point. I too have an occasional moan to my wife for being too generous but that is part of her nature.

I would say though that if the occasional meal and drinks for the workers is threatening the viability of your business then it can't be very profitable. I think these costs need to be built into any biz plan as they are more or less inevitable.

Hi Mate..I have no problems with occasional meals and drinks as mentioned in my last paragraph on my previous post.but my biggest problem ( On most issues) is Yai. When we have piecework, for instance filling the soil into 3,000 growing bags, our regular workers turn up as individuals as is their wish but last time Yai turned up with 3 of my wife's sisters, 1 husband, and 5 kids with me and my family working too that is 13 meals....and also takes my wife and one daughter out of the working equation cos they are cooking and washing up..

..Twice my wife has employed her sister to do some labouring tasks that any of us are able and willing to do only for my wife to sit down taking care of her baby!!..

But the OP is about the traditional "team work"..<deleted> to that too because you can help other people but in my experience other people turn up to help you NOT when they are needed but when they are available..

I have spent the last 3 years drumming a business sense into my wife's head and MAKING her seperate business responsibilities and family responsibilities. It has been a hard battle but now they all understand...

You think they understand and are going to change to suit you, honestly? I have been down this road and it keeps getting narrower. We are the visitors and the culture here is Thai, I have tried hard to live up to what I was taught as a child and thought "they" understood. Can I offer a tip? Give yourseld a break and take a lesson from Mrs Ploppy every once in a while

Latest from my place. I have five Duroc boar piglets now about a week old. As a batch I intend to grow them out. So if anyone is interested in buying a boar let me know.

I have also found a $300 dollar control unit that will turn a domestic AC unit into a cold room chiller. 2x2 mtere 3 m high cold room at 3C with a 12,000Btu Tesco AC. How about that?

Back to basics guys. Thais believe that life is to be enjoyed. Once the rice bowl is full, relax. The problem we have is that doesnt fit our progressive, continuous improvement lifestyle, the way we were raised with a nothing for nothing belief.

Watch a Thai that hires help. He will do little but provide the plus pluses to the workers, despite his own capabilities, this time he is the boss.

There is a western saying that applies to the Thai way. It goes "Why own a dog, and bark yourself?"

I have been transporting my pigs to have them slaughtered to a local "road side" place. They do a good job and butcher to Western primal cuts. But there are a few issues that you should look at. First is stress, I spend a lot of time with a pig before the day so it is relaxed when loaded. But there is still some stress in the ride to "Doom". A stressed animal doesnt not make good meat.

Second is hanging the carcass through rigormortis which definitely makes a big difference. Of course that means chilling the meat becomes more difficult.

Currently I am planning to slaughter onsite (rent-an-assassin) and to build a coolroom in which to chill and storage carcasses for several days before butchery.

As if I haven't got enough to do, of well, the customer is always right!

Fantastic news guys, we Isaan pigfarmers are finally getting it together. Last time we spoke Coxy all was not so good, I am so pleased you turned it around. See, the harder you try, the luckier you get.

I am sure others would be interested in your slaughter through sale process. This is something we have not focused on here and I think the time is right.

My main meat customer base is in Bangkok and Pattaya. These guys are professionals and have been very supportive but the world is turning and I can improve my pork by improving my "Thai" style process to be more western. I am working on achieving that affordably. Getting close.

There is also a fast growing farm to table market for pork which I will struggle to keep up to. Perhaps we need to get our heads together on this, so anyone interested in pork instead of pig prices can drop me a PM. Sorry but this is business and not for the public domain, at least not yet!

I am also interested in talking to anyone with pellet making capacity. Again please contact me by PM if you have the gear.

For farming, Thailand is ripe for consolidation and opening of large corporate farms using machines rather so much Manuel labor

Nothing strange going on here, changing from a rural agrarian society to an industrial society

This has happened in all developed countries and it is just a normal step in progression from a newly industrialized country to a developed country

Perhaps, but his Majesty seems to have other "sufficiency" ideas. One thing is for sure, it is cheaper to employ machines than men here already.

My compost consists of manure, straw and rice hulls. The issue is mixing and heating as much as the oxygen level. To get an even result it must be turned frequently. These are "old fashioned" three box systems and I move the material from box to box as well as turn it in each box. Again for aeration and mixing in other materials. The moisture level can be adjusted to suit the three stages. I windrow other materials to help build soil, those I do not turn, effectively building a layer cake with whatever comes to hand.

I doubt any manure based compost is produced without some form of aeration. Horses for courses, in my case pigs for pokes.

Smithson,

Governments serious? Of course they are, there are a few in the ranks of officials that seem to jump highest when the prod comes from the top however. Now with the wet season started their eyes will be on rain fed rice no doubt.

IA

I agree. I was here two years after the 1997 crisis and could not believe what was available for sale at bargain basement prices, the rush to get out of trouble, the level of nonperforming loans was staggering. With the cost of living rising so quickly and finance available in the inflationary rather than investment areas, the gun is being cocked again.

As far as farming is concerned the cost of such labour as remains is just crazy. They grow chili here off season. Too much but that is another issue. At its peak with the first green chili for sale the farmgate prices hit the mid thirties, within weeks red chili was getting not much more than half.

Pickers were hard to find and not many that would work for the few baht a kg that was standard last year. I heard one guy explain that since people in Bangkok now got 300 baht a day, he didnt figure he should take less. Since he thought he could pick (at a leisurely pace) about 10kg a day, he wanted 30 baht a kg to pick the crop. Say what? TIT

Choice of words I suppose but I believe that composting decomposes organic matter, not rots it. I have recently started anaerobic fermentation of compost with great success and a sweet smell. I have always thought that aerobic was the only way but it isn't, there are good guy microbes that work anaerobically as well. The anaerobic way is harder but the results are good once you get the process right.

Absolutely agree compost is soil food, but differ on compost being used when fully matured. To me, it makes sense that if the decomposition of organics in the soil by microbes is feeding the plants then there should be some "live" organisms involved, something left to "chew" on.

Don't suppose it really matters what belief we have as long as it works.

You are right Jim. It does vary from village to village, and there are pockets of people who still respect the traditional village culture. But life is to be enjoyed so if someone else fills your rice bowl, you're done for the day. That much will never change in the villages.

Today? Don't sweat about getting the phone lines, some thieving lay about will only steal it anyway. When the big screen fails, well it was old anyway!

The need to show and maintain face at all costs will confound me for ever. I watch people with money around here, manipulate those around them with a little sweet talk and a drink. I see the common folk spending everything just to claim a win again someone they had called friend the day before. It a bad case of "Getting ahead of the Jones."

There can be only one winner, Khun Kubota.

I can remember my first trip to our village. We were greeted warmly by the village who were communially planting their rice crops, everyone working together, no money changing hands, just getting it done. Rows of people transplanting rice seedlings. Meals and booze supplied on the day by whoevers rice was being planted.

Havent seen it happen in the last two of four years since we moved here. Not once.

This years chilli crop was bigger than last years but less was harvested because the per kg cost was too high.

The community spirit is gone. Everyone has a mobile, fridge and TV, many with new houses. Adult children sending funds and even more offspring, but loathe to return to the village to help plant the rice.

How can we get labour to run our farms? It is the same story with everyone I talk to.

You seem confused. Please re-read the forum title.

Canopy,

Please excuse me, yesterday was very frustrating, long, hard work and tiring. I needed to bite back and you coped it. Sorry, I dont agree with what you said but I was out of court.

IA

Come on guys, you two are like me just a soft hearted pig framer way too attached to his breeding stock. Just joking, you have hit both nails on the head, she isnt going anywhere.

I mate my pigs naturally and will offer the boar to a sow as many times as she will stand. My previous Thai helper thought that once was enough. To him entry is success well from my personal experience on the human side of things it takes two to tango. Everything about that farrowing was textbook, no mummified pigs, no still births, just five very healthy 1.8 kg piglets.

If there is a profit at all, then costs are covered and opportunity exists to improve the return.

Feed, another one that I put down to my ex-man, he really did like the pigs, a farang was buying the food, so he fed them whenever they asked, and more than they wanted. His version, "When the pigs have enough to eat they never boxing or noisey". I printed off pages of Thai manuals to make him understand but eh... boring, a story we all know too well.

Yesterday a sow delivered five healthy boars. Yes only five. She is a great mother and a very docile pig. At fourth parity and diminsishing litter size, decision time looms. If you do the math, she had produced 14 piglets in the last year and assuming all the new ones reach weaning which they should do, the average cost of her piglets is around 1,100 baht. Industry standard prices for piglets is 1,700 baht so there is still a profit.

So what to do?

I am in a transition phase of changing the herd over. If she was to throw another litter of five, then her cost per piglet annually would be closer to 1,500 baht.

What would you do?

Honestly, on a farming forum you are suggesting back yard composting? Nid Noy, Nid Noy. Sorry but don't bring that here.

Yes I make make it for you. Open book.

Coxy I am with you, this last year has been very hard. I consider myself lucky the way things have panned out though. Hopefully things will stay according to plan. Even just for a little while would be nice.

Well, I turn my stage 1 compost at least three times a week, more if time allows. I use CRH to trap the ammonia form of nitrogen and to increase the pH of the compost. Probiotic also breaks down the nitrogen elements. The answer is to keep it aerobic. As my compost is manure based it simply must be turned frequently especially during the initial temperature phase. Anaerobic compost is not pleasant or useful.

Once the compost is finished I have started fermenting it to increase the NPK values. Now it is anaerobic bokashi.

I have other compost windrows in which I dump grass clippings, banana plant wastes etc.. I use septic tank effluent to get these moving and do not turn the piles. These are setup of areas where I want to build soil and formed inside straw bale perimeters. The straw rots quickly and with a little EM help basically forms bokashi with natural fungis in the straw. When everything is broken down a bit I combine the pile and cover it with dirt and some compost. After the wet, rotary hoe the lot and start again.

Probably a stupid question , but is there something like a market for pigs ..

After trying and failing miserably the 1st try ( due to all beginner errors ) , we did do a 2nd try but now for breeding pigs . We just sold out the 1st lot and with a healthy margin. They all went to local people so this is only possible for low nr's . Extending the business , would provide a healthy income , if we can sell it . I'm pretty sure for let's say , 20 or 30 per month but what about larger nr's ?

Stock market for pigs? I doubt it, none around me. I assume you mean nett return (nr's)?

20 to 30 piglets per month means you will need 12 sows plus. It also would mean an average of 10 local customers per month. If you sell at weaning plus a week or so. Each repeat customer would revisit every 4 months at the earliest, assume 5. That means you need a minimum of 50 customers taking an average of 2 piglets each.

"If we can sell it" indeed. Check the local livestock development office and the net for statistics on the number of farmers raising pigs in your area. Is it satisfied by the local breeding farms? How many people are contract growing?

Can you raise the nett return? Yes, reduce your cost base and offer something the customer is willing to pay more for. Get rid of the poor performers at first opportunity for any return you can. Look at what supplementary feed you can make or grow.

In my opinion too many people look only at the gross income against the feed bill. As a breeder, and I am still guilty of this, it is all too easy to hold stock that has little chance of making a return on cost. Giving a sow another chance is a 5 to 6 month feed commitment. Cull them if in any doubt.

One thing to watch very carefully is the amount of feed given to gestating sows. Very easy to overfeed them, not only do they get too fat, the litter size can be reduced and her lactation effected. You mentioned you were a beginner, read busy reading up on nutrition. Feed is a major cost element and at 1.5ton each per year a sow is an expensive beast to feed.

I had a guy feeding our pigs. He was giving a sow just recently rejoined the same amount of feed as he fed her when she was nursing her last litter. The nett effect was about a 30% overfeeding cost.

Net return is also effected by the average parity of your sows. You should look at the replacement planning of sows and gilts to average a parity level of 2 to 3 across the herd. Maximum piglet output is normally at parity 2 to 4. Gilts deliver fewer piglets. I work on a herd average number of 9 piglets weaned per litter as the goal.

The short answer is reduce your costs and provide something perceived as better.

Latest trend in pig prices from the National Swine Association show the recent prices levels are declining slightly. If the normal trend occurs we may well have seen the best already.

Prices May 2012 national swine association.pdf

Scoop,

Not as any critisism only clarification:

Herbicides are used on upland rain fed rice paddies, in fact, often used twice. Firstly to kill whatever is growing in the paddy after the dry season and early rains and secondly a post emergent herbicide to kill grass.

Their are many Thai farmers planting green manure crops, sunhemp seeds are supplied free to farmers. Here in Isaan this practice is growing, admittedly from a small base.

It is not the NPK major nutrients, the minor nutrients or the trace elements that are the issue with chemical fertilisers. It is the residual salts that are left. The arguable advantage of commercial fertiliser is that is in a more concentrated and plant available form than most composts. This allows the crop to be feed regardless of the soil condition. The result is soil is being degraded, humus levels drop, biology lost and topsoil eroded. The basic difference in using compost and other organic practices is you are building up the soil, or feeding the soil not the crop. Nutrients required to grow a specific crop need to be added to maintain the balance. The biggest challenge here is establishing what is in the soil and what should be added. As Dr Treelove has written often the available tests here are insufficient to get it right. NPK and pH are not enough.

As Gary said composting 10 rai is a challenge. One I am yet to, and doubt would try to attempt. At up to 10 ton per hectare or about 15 ton for 10 rai that would mean at 30kg per bag some 450 bags of my compost to do the job. It would take me months to produce that much compost and to maintain its moisture and microbiological content would be almost impossible.

My direction is to reduce the quantity needed but increasing the nutrient content of the compost and by pelletising it to trap the contents. This can be achieved by adding vegetable protein and minerals and fermenting the finished compost with probiotic solutions. The result, organic fertiliser. It is still low in primary nutrients compared with commercial fertiliser and needed in larger volumes. But is competetive against good quality commercial stuff in terms or cost to purchase. For me, it will replace a major buy-in cost.

I would love to become self sufficient and fully organic, not just from a cost perspective but for the benefit to the soil. Is a fully organic commercial farm possible here? I doubt it given the difficulty in getting farm labour alone.

So to the topic of this thread, I believe it is not a one or the other answer, but more a combination of things needed.