JimGant

Humbug. CRS will let the Thai tax authorities know what their citizens are earning abroad. Period. What amount of that they remit to Thailand is not a data element of CRS. Thus, Thailand, if they want to tax their citizen's foreign income, will have rely on the data element of income earned, not remitted. So, this is probably where we're headed in the future, if Thailand wants to collect some additional taxes, courtesy of CRS (and FATCA). Meanwhile, cash flows coming into Thailand cannot possibly be parsed as to what is income, and what is not. Use your common sense. Instead, as has been said ad infinitum, the Thais will have to rely on self-assessment, from those who filter their income through a home bank account. For those with direct deposits into Thailand of their pensions -- maybe, if these pensions are taxable via the DTA -- you might get a summons from RD. Not likely, however, as such detective work would cost more than it would reap. Relax. Be honest. Parse your own remittances for what is taxable, via your home DTA, then file a tax return -- if this taxable income exceeds the allowance, deduction, exemption number. If not, forget that ridiculous 120000 marker for mandatory filing -- it's nonsensical. Thus, nothing will happen to you -- you think they're going to haul you away for not filing taxes you didn't owe? Not likely, as Thailand really is trying to become, or emulate, a first world country. Just unofficial forum advice. If it makes you comfortable, then use it.

Well, of course, you can always take your benefits statement, received a year ago, and take your monthly entitlement, pre medicare deductions and tax withholdings, if any, multiply by 12 -- and there you have it, a self generated 1099. And since, if you efile or have no tax withholdings on your SS payments, no real 1099 is needed -- just the numbers. So, yeah, like to do my taxes as early as possible -- and like others have said, TurboTax, and other tax software, will just hold my tax return until the IRS opens its doors. Like to have this out of the way earliest, in case I croak. Do the same with FBARS -- filed mine and wife's Jan 2, using the Bank of Thailand Average Bank Interbank Exchange Rate -- which is allowable when the asked for Treasury Rate is not yet available.

Presumably, this money helps create jobs, particularly for the lower tier, non skilled hotel cleaners (hasn't the hotel industry reported labor shortages at their lower ends?). "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

Yeah, and you can't even buy it -- you have to subscribe, and pay annual membership fees. I'm using an old pirated copy of Acrobat, bought in the back allies of Chiang Mai years ago. I guess those days are gone. Sigh.

Yeah, and PWC is a good company, but I guess they're just passing on what the translation comes out to be. But since Thailand can't fine me or imprison me for not filing when no taxes owed, just what can they do? Well, this is certainly an area where I'd take my chances -- going back to my CPA days, where I'd always recommend the grey area that is in your favor, at least when I added up the probabilities. Here, however, there are some unknowns, like, can they mess around with your visa for not filing..... So, do what you're comfortable with, at least with the current information. But I'd bet they'll modify the 120k rule, just to prevent a flood of tax returns with no check attached.

Well, you could include alternative recommendations, like from retired CPAs, particularly if that alternative recommendation saved a lot of time and effort -- and was completely safe from punitive actions, like fines or imprisonment. Certainly, including a sidebar of other opinions, is the professional way, particularly in fluid and confusing situations, like this subject. Just my thoughts.

It depends on the nature of the non-compliance, anywhere from a fine for late filing when payment is due, up to 10 years and 200k fine for evasion. If you owe no taxes (because you have a negative taxable income of 380k baht, after you subtract 500k of allowances et al from the 120k required minimum filing threshhold of assessable income), then the penalty for no filing is a fine equal to (in some cases, twice) the taxes owed. But, you don't owe any taxes -- thus, no fine, or any other kind of penalty. So why file? My gardener is paid 500bt per day. Thus, six days a week times 52 = 156k. So, by law, she's expected to file, although she'll owe no taxes after subtracting allowances et al. So, you think she, and all the other minimum wage earners will file? Of course not -- fortunately, since only trees and man hours, not collectible taxes, are involved. And, as usual, the people often know better than their government, and react accordingly. Point being: No taxable income, no reason to file. And no penalties. So, don't file in this situation.

And an excellent opinion, in my opinion (do I hear an echo...)

Presumably your plastic sucks money from your bank account; just make sure this account had sufficient pre-2024 deposits, plus gov't pension and social security deposits, going forward (for Yanks, anyway). Then, same advice as the above posting.

Presumably that US bank account from which your Wise transfer came from had funds in it pre 1 Jan 2024. And maybe a deposit on 1 Jan 2024 of a private pension, and a deposit of a government pension. So, from which part of this fungible pot of money did your Wise remittance come from? Until they come out and mandate Fifo or Lifo (first in first out, last in last out) -- which they probably won't -- it's up to you. And since GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles) defines fifo and lifo relative to inventories, not remittances -- I'd say you're free to pick and choose what tranche of your bank account funded your Wise transfer. So, if you had sufficient pre-2024 funds in your bank account, or your government pension was large enough, or a combination of the two -- there you have it, as these are non assessable income remittances. With no instructions to the contrary, you can pick and choose the non assessable tranches of your bank account. In this example, you would not pick the private pension tranche, as this is assessable income. Just keep good records, particularly showing the tranches you choose had enough funds to cover your remittance. Anyway, this is my guess. All part of what's going to necessarily be a self-assessment drill.

Can you provide further details on this, like the online link? Thanx.

Wrong. CRS reporting is for showing income earned abroad by a resident of a CRS reporting country. Then, the relevant tax authorities can assess taxes. What happens to that taxable income, in terms of if, when, and where transferred -- is irrelevant (except in weird cases, like Thailand). And, more importantly, if all income streams remitted between countries would somehow be scrutinized for taxability -- Foreign Direct Investment, among other items, would come to a screeching halt. Not going to happen. So, CRS will certainly help determine income being earned abroad by Thai tax residents. And once the remitted proviso is done away with -- Thailand stands to reap some nice tax revenues. But, until then, the remittance proviso neuters CRS reporting.

I believe it will, especially for international money transfers. You implied that CRS data was now going to allow determination of foreign income earned by Thai tax residents. That's nice --except because of Thailand's remittance qualification, and because CRS -- and FATCA -- reporting doesn't include remittance information, that ain't going to happen. Here's a quote from you: "I believe it [CRS] will, especially for international money transfers." My point: international money transfers aren't a data element of CRS reporting.

I think we can ( politely )agree to disagree on that one I believe it will, especially for international money transfers. Nope. CRS, and FATCA, don't track international money transfers -- they're interested in reporting money earned abroad by citizens of member countries. So, as long as Thailand adheres to the bizarre income reporting proviso -- "only if remitted," then reports of income earned abroad, by Thai tax residents, ain't worth anything. And that's why I think the remitting thingy will go away, in the interest of a lot more revenue collection, due to it being much easier to identify foreign source income -- and how it shakes out against one's DTA. Of course, the Thai fat cats, with a lot to lose, may have something to say about this....

No. It's all spelled out in the Technical Explanation: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thaitech.pdf Article 21 is where you'll find that government pensions are taxable only by the country paying these pensions. And the TE says state and local pensions are included, not just Federal.

Has anybody done their one year report by mail? If so, can you describe the procedure -- and did you need to provide a return envelope to get your "due next year" reminder, which, I guess, doubles as a receipt of report, to staple in your passport? Thanx.

Not too hard to decipher. If you can't find your particular income as assessable in the Thai tax code, then, by default, it is NOT assessable income. And need not be reported on your Thai tax return. Income mentioned in DTAs as taxable "only in the country of residency," and you're a resident of Thailand, ipso facto, that's assessable income for Thai purposes. Other income, like rents, has a "may be taxed by country of residency," meaning, for US types, the income from your rental in the US is primarily taxed by the US; but Thailand can also tax it secondarily, but has to grant a credit for the US taxes, i.e., the country of primary taxation rights. Currently, there is no line item on Thai tax returns to list credits -- but they say they are working on it. Stay tuned.

If you remitt it in a later year than earned, Royal Decree says, essentially, that it is NOT Assessable Income. And the RD says, you don't have to file a tax return if you have no Assessable Income, or your Assessable Income is below 120000, like if you had some Thai bank interest. Ergo, no requirement to file a Thai tax return. IMO

Another source says the same thing: But, yeah, I've seen other comments to the contrary. But, all my remittances are non assessable (govt pensions, social security) -- or in one small situation, definitely remitted in a later year -- so I'm really not on top of this.

Bingo. No penalty, because the penalty is based on amount owed. And if nothing owed, no penalty. I really do think that most folks here can decipher their DTA with Thailand -- and know whether or not that they have assessable income that's reportable on a Thai tax return. And, I can't see anything about a failure to file penalty, if nothing owed. Yes, if you do owe, and you file late -- looks like a 2000 baht fine. But no fine if nothing owed, and you didn't file. And based on that, this "must file if you have 120,000 in assessable income" is nuts: That's a 380,000 baht gap before you reach the 500,000 exemption, allowance, deduction subtraction, meaning you're wasting somebody's time by having to file, when there are no taxes payable. Using the US, as representative of OECD nations, if your Adjusted Gross Income (basically, same as Thai assessable income) is less than your Standard Deduction (or itemizations), you have a negative Taxable Income -- and don't need to file for obvious reasons, at least from the revenue gathering angle. But, in the Thai situation, having a negative Taxable Income -- 380k in the above example -- you're still required to file. What a lot of paper processing with no revenue involved. Dumb. Anyway, I wouldn't file in the above situation, because there's no penalty, that I can see, since any penalty would be an assessment off taxes owed -- and there are no taxes owed. Full stop. This is the same situation in the States, where if you overwithhold, or pay extra estimated taxes -- so that you have a negative tax bill -- you don't have to file. I've already set things up for the wife, that when I croak, and since there's no way she could do taxes, or even download 1099s to give to a preparer (of which we have none in Chiang Mai), that I'll overwithhold by about $400 on all her earnings. This is what she'd pay for a tax preparer in Bangkok -- at the high end. Anyway, told her, just don't file, and the overwithholdings you forfeit will balance out with the saved preparer fee. Plus, no tax hassle headache, on top of everything else that will complicate her life. Anyway, sorry, I digress. But, I love tax puzzles.

I doubt an RD clerk will have the time or gumption to spend time giving you free tax advice. But more importantly, if foreign income is your concern, no clerk is going to have intimate knowledge of your specific DTA, as he has over 60 to consider. So, you'll be more knowledgeable about your DTA than he will. But, if you're really unsure about what's taxable, and what's not -- I'm sure you'll have a whole host of tax preparers to choose from.

Indeed. In effect, we've been grandfathered under the old rule, namely: Bring your assessable income into Thailand in the year, or years, after it is earned, and it is then not taxable. So, if that is what you have been doing, nothing has changed for you.

No!!! Nor an ethical one. [My creds? Retired CPA, formerly licensed in Virginia, USA. Expertise: Taxation and financial planning, airline aircrews. Yes, not licensed in Thailand nor an expert on expat matters -- but I would assume my background gives me a foot in the door on overall tax matters.]

My making it complicated? I'm maintaining we expats should have no problem explaining our DTAs to ourselves, and then determining, after considering the remittal aspect, what taxes I need to report on a Thai tax return, if any. You're saying, and you admit you actually did this, we should take all our numbers to an RD agent and have a meeting of minds. I'm sure I'd spend the alloted time explaining my DTA to him, since it's unlikely he's ever heard of it, or at least examined it. What's the value of this? Your research tidbits are appreciated, and I realize you've spent some time in the research. However, some of your recommendations are nonsensical.

When every farang in country has a file that delineates, and can be possessed by RD: 1. Been in country for an amalgamated number of days exceeding, or equal to, 180 2. Visa held is NOT an LTR 3. Pensions direct deposited to Thailand are NOT subject to exclusivity of home country (like, RD is going to know all the language of 60 DTAs -- yeah, right). 4. Monies wired, or ATMed, to Thailand are NOT from a bank account established, and contributed to, before Jan 1, 2024. -- This might be an argument later of how Fifo and Lifo determine that money sent is from the earliest pile, not the latest -- if post Jan 1 2024 deposits are later made. That argument is just too weird to contemplate, although it might be necessary. Anyway, just an example of the impossibility of enforcing tax compliance. Worst case: a random tax compliance audit, probably of only those with large transfers into Thailand.