JimGant

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The OP is holding an unrealised capital gain on the last day of 2023 and wants to remit them as savings in 2024, which I imagine in the Jim Gant rule of tax law is probably OK.....duh!

Go back and reread what I wrote. Your total portfolio, as of Dec 31, 2023 -- to include savings and unrealized cap gains -- is exempt from Thai taxes when remitted after Jan 1, 2024. Thailand doesn't care, nor will it investigate, whether those funds remitted are savings, assessable income, non assessable income, a gift, a loan. It makes no difference -- because this is a one-time good deal that exempts ALL remittances, regardless of how they are characterized. The law calls all these funds "foreign -source income."

The OP is not remitting a specifically characterized -- like unrealized gains -- chunk of fungible money. Thailand only cares that it is from a pre 2024 source. Period. In fact, when the OP sends off that $1000, it needn't be specifically identified as an unrealized gain -- in fact, using FIFO, that $1000 of fungible money -- is probably the first $1000 he used 20 years ago to open the account.

You're confusing normal remittance processing, whereby it's necessary to break down whether such remittance is assessable, or non-assessable, income. And, yes, whether these funds are savings, or income, becomes part of the equation. But in the OP's situation -- and for most of the rest of us -- Thailand is only interested in whether or not the remittance comes from a pre 2024 source -- in which the case, the whole enchilada is automatically, per law, tax exempt/non assessable monies. No need to differentiate between savings and non savings.

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The discussion is about how to distinguish between what is savings and what is not and how.

There is no discussion about what is, and what isn't, savings. Savings make no difference in this once-only ruling, that says: All your pre 2024 monies are tax exempt -- if remitted into Thailand post 2023. Period.

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

no, you are not cleared to decide your own accounting rules and expect that the TRD will bless them all!

In a vacuum of no guidance from TRD, of course you can decide your own accounting rules-- what guidance are you supposed to use? In the 1% chance you're called in for a chat, you've certainly got a prima facie case on why you used FIFO. Again, they may finally issue some guidance on this; but we ain't there yet -- so use whatever accounting rules are in your favor.

Wow. Why is so much being made of the interpretation of this:

Quote

The new department order clarifies that only foreign-source income earned from 1 January 2024 will be covered by the new interpretation set out in P161/2023, and does not extend to foreign-source income earned prior to 1 January 2024. This amendment is established with a second paragraph added to Section 1 of P 161/2023 stating:

“The provisions of paragraph one shall not apply to assessable income arising before 1 January 2024.”

Thus, we're talking "FOREIGN-SOURCE INCOME."  Nothing about "savings," which could be construed as income already taxed by the home country (but which taxation plays no part in the Thai tax situation). And it applies to before tax income, like unrealized capital gains (which, again, plays no part in the Thai tax situation). All Thailand is saying is that: The value of your portfolios on 31 Dec 2023, if remitted in part or in whole, will be tax exempt in Thailand. Period.

No need to keep in your records which remittances were savings; which were stock principal; which were unrealized stock cap gains, etc. They won't care. They'll only care that the remittances were, indeed, from financial sources existing before 2024. And, as said, they certainly won't care if it has, or hasn't, been taxed by the source country.

Right now you're cleared to use whatever accounting rules are to your advantage. Thus, FIFO (first in, first out) would assure your pre-2024 monies are being used first. This would certainly be wise, should your accounts still be active, and are thus accumulating post 2023 income. It is possible they'll mandate LIFO -- there is precedent for this for UK remitted based taxation. And if so, would it be retroactive......?  Hmmm.

On 6/19/2024 at 6:17 PM, TPDH said:

Let's say you had $1000 (portfolio value) in foreign stocks on the last day of 2023. And now, in mid 2024 your stock holdings are worth $2000. Does that mean you can still safely sell off $1000 of your stock holdings and remit it into Thailand tax free at any time? As it would be considered savings prior to 2024. 

Yes. The value of your financial accounts as of 31 Dec 2023 is what's exempt from Thai taxation upon remittance. So, any increase over this number in later years would not be exempt, to include cap gains and reinvested interest and dividends. Easy scenario to explain to TRD.

20 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

If this tax law change is approved, my Thai tax bill will be minimum US$10,000 annually, with zero offset on US taxes.

5 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Already ran the numbers.  Thailand will tax assessable income, disregarding IRS deductions, credits, and offsetting capital gains losses.

OK, good point. I wonder if your situation is an outlier, or more normal than I considered. All my cap gains are ordinary income within my IRA -- and I have no rental income. Maybe I'm the outlier......but, I think, I'm the typical retiree, with pension, SS, and an IRA. But, I guess, you too could pack your bags, and head for the border -- given your new situation.

24 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I've spent a lifetime under the US regime taxing global, interstellar and multidimensional income.  Uncle Big Brother has already had a shot at all my income, and I've paid all taxes due as directed.  I don't see the need to submit to some corrupt, third-world entity grabbing what they have no right to.

Oh, barf. Yanks -- as has been said ad nauseam on this forum -- realistically have no dog in this fight. Since all our income is already taxed by Uncle Sam, should Thailand suddenly get a piece of the tax pie -- per international tax treaty -- then US taxes will decrease dollar for dollar, as the IRS will have to absorb a tax credit from Thailand. Yes, a few outliers -- the poor Yank, who doesn't pay any US taxes, may wake up to a Thai tax. But nothing substantial, at their income level. And the guy who has to take a big chunk out of his IRA, to finance whatever in Thailand. Depending on how big the chunk -- this could be a substantial Thai tax hit. But -- no one taking an RMD would normally fall into this situation -- unless your IRA contains several millions of dollars. So, Yanks. Relax, have a beer, and read more enlightening threads on this forum.

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'm just curious as to how many expats living in Thailand are tax refugees. Those guys who don't pay taxes in their home country perhaps could be hit with a Thai tax

Yeah, except for a few misguided Yanks, these seem to be the folks screaming "179 days, then I'm outa here." So sad.

13 hours ago, stat said:

If you cannot prove it or TRD is not happy with your documents they could tax every satang that you send

Right. That's why they're wisely considering switching to taxing worldwide income -- and not remittances. No more the problem of trying to determine whether or not that cash flow into Thailand is assessable income, or is it not.

16 minutes ago, stat said:

they could simply tax every satang unless YOU prove otherwise (They will however honor DBAs

And how will they determine which cash flow is exempt via DTA?

5 hours ago, Confuscious said:

So, Thailand will refer to the income in your bank account for their taxes claim?
Your income, but also every amount that is put in your bank account as a gift, donation, etc.?
Crazy

Nope, just numbers with a 1099 (US, or foreign eqivalent) delineating income. Other cash flow will not be considered income. Thailand may get final income numbers, when you do you 1040 tax return -- and include income from self-assessment. But right now, it doesn't appear FATCA reporting of US income involves reporting a 1040 tax return. Reporting worldwide income to Thailand should be similar to doing your US 1040, with exceptions for income excluded via DTA. Income not subject to 1099s or W2s could be ignored, if you'd like to cheat.

1 hour ago, stat said:

However maybe they decide to just tax every satang you transmit no matter if principal or loss.

You really thought that through before you pushed "send?" If so, I guess I won't waste any of my future time wading through your posts for any germane contributions.

36 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

So, Thailand will refer to the income in your bank account for their taxes claim?
Your income, but also every amount that is put in your bank account as a gift, donation, etc.?
Crazy

I would imagine the algorithms used by CRS and FATCA reporting are sophisticated enough to discern income from other cash flows. Otherwise, these reporting systems would be worthless.

38 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

The Belgian tax rule is that taxes are levied on the PREVIOUS YEAR.

I said tax year, not current year.

35 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

As far as I have been following this thread, Thailand would only tax residents based on the Income/transferred money into Thailand.

That's probably going to become history, because under the new CRS and FATCA reporting rules -- which don't address remittances -- it will be a lot easier for Thai RD authorities to identify foreign income -- and tax accordingly, without the added implement of needing to be remitted. That's why the remittance rule is probably going to be history.

35 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

Will Thailand claim Tax on money that is in my Savings account since 45 years?

Monies in an account, after the latest tax year, will be considered after tax (savings), and thus not subject to taxation. Thailand is looking to join the rest of the world, which taxes only current year income, regardless of remitances (with the some very minor exceptions, of no real note).

On 5/14/2024 at 11:35 AM, AcuDoc said:

So here is my question... worse case scenario if my wife dies for some reason what happens to the land, does it just go to her family... I know that as a farang I can't own land but is there a legal document that could have the land go to me or that it could be sold... I get along great with my in-laws and believe that they would let me live there until I die

As has already been said, have her accomplish a Will, with you designated as the inheritor of her house and land. Then go to the land office and record either a 30 year lease, or a usufruct, on the back of the Chanote.

Thus, the Will says you get the land. But, because you can't own it due to Thai law, you get "right of first disposition," meaning you can give it away to a relative, or sell it to a stranger. Makes no difference to you, at least for the next 30 years, as no one can remove you during that period, because of the lease (or even longer, if a usufruct). Only if you didn't want your relative to get the land would you sell it to a stranger -- and that would be at a substantial discount, since the stranger can't do much with that land, with your butt stuck on it for 30 years.

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

the 'running out of battery' argument is one of the most commonly used by those who are 'anti-digital-payment'.... 

How'd you get started on this tirade? My response was to someone who said "they never carried cash," opting to only pay by phone. I merely mentioned, it might be nice to carry some cash, in case the phone went south. Also, cash may come in handy to pay a tow truck, when your EV vehicle has run out of electrons.

35 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

This was just someone trying to shoe-horn in an argument without thinking critically - most of the anti-digital payment arguments take this form and are devoid of critical logic in considering alternative options to their myopic 'whatiffery'... 

Stupid statement. Phones DO die, for battery, or other lesser reasons. Thus, for someone to say "they never carry cash" -- would seem to seem to say they haven't considered alternative -- and possibly necessary -- options.

On 5/15/2024 at 12:18 PM, george said:

I am not carrying cash. Never ever been a problem.

Ah, burp, just finished a nice, expensive meal. Take your bill to the cashier, turn on your phone, and -- whoops, battery's dead. No cash? I guess you get a free meal -- or go to the kitchen to wash dishes.

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

But since all visa's become equal once they have expired and the holder begins to use extensions, the only variable is the reason for the extension,  eg marriage, retirement etc

Actually, not true. To extend for retirement off of a Non Imm O-A -- you still needed to meet the medical insurance requirement -- unlike extending off of a Non Imm O. And they would only accept one of the designated Thai insurance companies. Bummer. LTR visas, however, tho' requiring health insurance, would accept my US govt Tricare insurance. Thus, a main reason for switching.

23 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Depending on the total taxable income amounts involved, the differences in tax rates between the U.S. and Thailand seem like those could result in many thousands of extra dollars of taxation occurring here if driven by large amount IRA to Roth conversions under the proposed new Thai taxation rules on foreign income.

Indeed. That's why I gave the "heads up" warning for those contemplating a Roth conversion -- 'cause if you wait until the worldwide tax scheme happens, you're in for a potentially big hit with a substantial conversion.

4 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

will the latest plan make it sensible for an American to do a single or maybe two very large amount Roth conversions, and how would doing so wash out between the U.S. and proposed Thai taxation schemes.

If you convert before the Thai implementation of worldwide taxation, there's no Thai taxation, since there' s no remittance involved with a conversion. But once Thai worldwide taxation comes into effect, if you convert at that point, the conversion is taxable by Thailand, since remittance is no longer a requirement. And the DTA says Thailand has exclusionary taxation rights on IRA taxable income events. US taxation on the conversion would be affected by any Thai taxation to the extent the US would have to absorb a Thai tax credit against its taxation on the IRA conversion.

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I think the notion above of the PROPOSED Thai tax changes being something that ought to trigger folks now to suddenly do LARGE dollar value Roth conversions is a problematic one..

My point was, if you've been thinking about doing a Roth, maybe sooner is better than later. But you'll probably have enough warning on whether or not you need to do it by the end of this year, if it looks like the new worldwide taxation will kick in in 2026.

All the other caveats and guidance on doing a Roth have been around for some time. The article I referenced does a good job of delineating these. The only real kicker -- other than the Thai worldwide income aspect -- is if Trump's tax cuts get eliminated, which I would guess, is doubtful. But, again, hey, if you've considered doing a Roth, some new ammunition to assist your decision. [I've never done one, and don't plan to do one. If my RMD gets taxed by the Thais, no big deal, as it will be a minimum amount, as it barely pokes into the taxable income level. Plus, the Thai taxation will then be a tax credit against the US tax on this same RMD. Ho hum.]