JimGant

11 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

The main reason I have USD accts in Thailand is the exchange rates at my Thai banks are much better than sending THB from my Chase Bank acct in the US

Yes, at any point in time.  But, a week, month, year after you establish that dollar account, those dollars may be worth less than what's available in your US bank for conversion to baht. You can't pretend having a USD account somehow mitigates against an FX loss, unless you've somehow placed yourself in an emergency-need-baht situation. Again, as I said, having a contingency account in baht is certainly not inferior to having one in USD.

Or, maybe I'm missing your point. Are you saying you send dollars to your USD account, then, using that as a conduit, make an immediate conversion to baht, thus appreciating the superior conversion rate doing this in-country conversion realizes?

19 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Why USD in a local bank?  It can typically be converted to THB and accessed almost immediately.   USD outside of Thailand in a bank, can take hours to days or more to transfer to Thailand -

You mean, it's a surplus fund, sitting there for a contingency, that would require baht? Why not, then, keep a surplus fund in baht, that can be assessed immediately, not almost immediately. There's no interest advantage. Makes no cents, er, sense.

As far as FX speculation, yeah, maybe a couple of days journey across the ocean by dollars, to catch a low point in the baht, may miss the absolute low point by a day or two. But, that couple day's journey might also realize an even lower point -- as speculation can be tricky.

Anyway, as you say, to each his own. Right now, my wife is briefed on how to go online and transfer my Thai account assets to her account, when I croak. Not sure she could do that with a USD account..... (please, let's not reopen the discussion about a bird in the hand vs probate).

14 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

My hope, like I think 95% (my figure) of others on the LTR-WP/WGC, is that no Thai tax return is needed, as it is just a bunch of extra possibly needless paper work for everyone.  Needless paperwork for us, and needless paper work for the Thai RD

 Of course.

9 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

"exempted for assessable" income may not be NOT the same as "not-assessable" income.  If it was not-assessable, why not simply state "not assessable". Instead "exempted for assessable" was translated.

You think too much. The Royal Decree allows LTR visa holders to treat otherwise "assessable income" as being the same as "not-assessable income" for taxation liability purposes.

On 8/18/2024 at 8:12 AM, Social Media said:

Meanwhile, official statements from Hamas suggest that the prospects of a ceasefire being reached during the Doha talks  are slim

Well, ok -- I guess Israel is then forced to continue turning Gaza into a parking lot. Sorry, Hamas --  that's what you get when you're stupid enough to start a fight with the world's premiere fighting force.

On 8/10/2024 at 1:44 PM, John Phuket said:

Also, I wonder what the position is if a Thai person takes out a properly documented personal loan from an overseas company - would that loan money be taxed ? Or would it even need to be declared to the Thai Tax Authorities?

Of course not -- it's not income in any form or fashion. As far as listing it on a Thai tax return -- Thailand doesn't even want income that is non assessable to be listed -- let alone non income like a loan.

20 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

For anyone transferring funds into a Thai bank account, once Thailand get their ducks in a row, how do you propose they avoid paying tax?  

Easy. Just show TRD all the money I wired to Thailand is non assessable: Air Force pension; Social Security; inheritiance from Aunt Martha; pre-2024 money from a savings account; loan from Chase Bank, to buy a condo; gift from daddy; whatever. TRD doesn't have the resources to interview even those farangs with large wires to Thailand. They might do random tax compliance audits from this pool of fat cat farangs. But even here they'll probably find little assessable income -- or if they do, that this assessable income doesn't rise to the level of taxable income. 

The tricky part might be -- if I've co-mingled funds -- my rationale for figuring out what part of this chunk of fungible dollars is non assessable income. If TRD finally puts out guidance on this -- well, their rules may not be to our benefit. But if no guidance, and you're free to pick and choose as you wish -- well, any discussion with TRD might be very spirited. Nevertheless, without any guidance, it's hard to imagine TRD saying, "your rationale sucks, therefore you're a tax evader." But why worry about this, when the chance of being called in by TRD for a chat is zilch. 

2 hours ago, itsari said:

I have a question on if I could pay the Thai tax in advance .

I ask that as the Tax Residency Certificate is not a problem but the requirment for prove of payment is confusing to have both sets of documents at the same time to allow the 15 percent tax not to be deducted by the Norwegian Tax Authoritity.

I doubt you can pay Thai tax in advance -- just file as early as possible when filing opens up at the beginning of the year -- and that may give you sufficient time before filing Norwegian tax forms.

But, how you go about getting the Norwegian exemption is not readily apparent from Google, at least in English. The below reference does have contact information with the Norwegian tax authorities, which sounds promising:

https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/taxes/get-the-taxes-right/employment-benefits-and-pensions/pension-and-disability-benefit/resident-abroad/countries/thailand/#:~:text=Under the tax treaty between Norway and Thailand article 18,exempt the pension from tax.

Quote

Skatteetaten
Postboks 9200 Grønland
NO – 0134 OSLO

Phone number when calling from abroad +47 22 07 70 00
Phone number when calling from Norway  800 80 000

E-mail: You cannot use e-mail, but send us a message.

Remember to quote your national identity number or D number in enquiries to the Tax Administration.

Good luck. 

2 hours ago, itsari said:

Did you need to notify the Norwegian authorities when changing to the Thai tax ? Or does the Thai authorities notify Norway of the change?

Quote

Persons who can document that they are resident in Thailand under the tax treaty between Norway and Thailand are entitled to tax exemption for pensions, disability benefits from the National Insurance Scheme and disability benefits from annuities if they can document that the pension/disability benefit is taxed in Thailand.........

You must therefore be able to submit a Certificate of Residence issued by the Thai tax authorities and explicitly stating that you are tax resident in Thailand pursuant to the tax treaty with Norway. You must also be able to submit an ”Income Tax Payment Certificate” from the Thai tax authorities as confirmation that tax has been paid in Thailand.

https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/taxes/get-the-taxes-right/employment-benefits-and-pensions/pension-and-disability-benefit/resident-abroad/countries/thailand/

Or, to revive an old discussion, if you begin your SS retirement while still in the States, when you move to Thailand, don't notify Manilla -- and avoid the fire drill being discussed on this thread.  Nothing illegal about this, since, if you're entitled to SS retirement, you can live anywhere in the world and receive your monthly payment -- except for a few countries, like North Korea and Cuba. It's only if you're getting SS SSI (the welfare side of SS), and you move outside the US, are you legally required to notify the SS administration.

When I moved here, I got a mail forwarding address, which I put into the "mailing address" of my online SS account. The next line had an affirmative: "The above address is my physical address." And a check block. I was honest, and didn't check it. This was several years ago, and there was no follow up to this blank check box. No integrity violated -- nor, apparently, any curiosity.

Don't really feel I'm violating the spirit of the "are you alive" requirement, since when I croak, the wife has to notify the Air Force (DFAS) to begin her survivor pay. Uncle Sam, then, is duly notified to stop my Air Force check, and my SS check.

5 hours ago, Will B Good said:

What has Singapore got to do with anything?

Just another managed democracy in the Asian neighborhood. From the report I posted, their stifling of freedom of expression is worse than Thailand's. But, hey, when you got a clan like the Lees, running a successful and happy country, you ain't newsworthy.

54 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

With a military junta and a refusal to enter the 21st century, accept opposition, the political situation will become more and more unstable and look what happens all ove rthe world

Yeah, just look at the particulars of this country:

Quote

Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: preventive detention by the government under various laws that dispense with regular judicial due process; monitoring private electronic or telephone conversations without a warrant; serious restrictions on freedom of expression and media, including the enforcement of criminal libel laws to limit expression; serious restrictions on internet freedom; and substantial legal and regulatory limitations on the rights of peaceful assembly and freedom of association.

Wow, wouldn't it be terrible if Thailand degenerated to this level of human rights abuse.

What? This is Singapore? Nevermind.

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/singapore/

23 hours ago, Presnock said:

if one enters any immigration office for that one year, it might be up to that particular IO about the TM.30

I did my one year report in Chiang Mai, using an agent (Star Visa). They wanted a copy of my TM30.

On 8/4/2024 at 11:44 AM, chiang mai said:

HMRC appears to make a clear distinction between government and state pensions and their ability to be taxed.

Indeed. Too bad the UK-Thai DTA doesn't read like the Spanish one, where Spain has exclusive taxation rights of all UK pensions (paid to residents of Spain), except pensions paid in reference to govt service.

Quote

Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 18 [govt pensions], pensions and other similar remuneration paid to an individual who is a resident of a Contracting State, shall be taxable only in that State.

As such, the UK pension recipient in Spain can just ask the HMRC to refund all previous UK taxation, and forego any future UK taxation on such income. Doesn't matter if Spain even taxes that income -- as exclusive tax authority, per DTA, the UK has no taxation rights to this income. Thus, this is not a one for one tax credit situation, where one country in the DTA has primary taxation authority, and the other country has secondary taxation authority (rental income is good example of this) -- and as secondary, has to absorb a tax credit, while the primary taxing authority gets to keep all collected taxes.

Too bad, with a silent DTA, UK pension recipients in Thailand apparently don't have the same luxury for exemption, with HMRC, as UK pension recipients in Spain [and other countries, with specific DTA language -- Spain isn't the only one]. In fact, the lack of language in the UK-Thai DTA even leaves to question which country -- Thailand or UK -- has primary taxation rights, and thus gets to keep all the tax collection (while the secondary country only get to collect, if anything, what's left after absorbing a tax credit). However, looking at DTAs, based on OECD Model tax treat language, where there's  a DTA article entitled Other Income: 99% of "other income," meaning it's not addressed in any of the Articles in the DTA, has the country of residence as the primary taxation authority.

I guess if I were a Brit, I'd like to get an HMRC readout of the above.

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

she will need to notify the IRS of this fact, so that the US doesn't tax that annuity

I assume, then, she is not a dual Thai-US citizen?

Let sandyf have his way on state pensions. With his self assessment logic, he would not declare his state pension on a Thai tax return. Thus, there would be no number -- maybe not even a tax return -- upon which the TRD could call him in for a discussion. But, in the <1% chance he's called in for an audit -- and the missing state pension number is brought up -- if he can blow just half the wind he's blowing on this subject on this thread -- they'll eventually toss him out of the office in exasperation.

Seriously, if you really believe a position that's to your benefit, go for it -- but be prepared to have your defense in order. In this situation, everyone but sandy believes he's on shaky ground. But if sandy believes it -- why shouldn't he go for it. He may end up paying a Thai tax on this, after an audit. But with such a huge amount of BS to throw at the TRD -- he certainly wouldn't be seen as complicit in tax evasion. Just pay the tax, with fine and interest. But, again, the chance of him being called in for an audit over a missing number -- is probably zilch.

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Unless you can enlighten us with a valid reason on why the UK state pension would not be covered by the DTA, I will go by what the DTA actually says.

The DTA is completely silent on UK state pensions. And, as already shown, it is not a government pension in light of DTA language, which says the pension must be paid for services rendered to the govt.

So, not a whole lot of help from the DTA. In fact, the UK-Thai DTA doesn't even have an Article on "Other Income," as most other DTAs have, which addresses income not specifically addressed in any of the Articles. However the conclusion in the US Article on "Other Income" is that, "generally such income is taxable only in the country of residence." Not much positive help for Brits on their state pension, should their DTA have a "Other Income" Article with a similar conclusion.

17 hours ago, jmd8800 said:

My SS is well over the $1200 you mentioned but also my transfers have been over 65,000 baht per month. But, I think the numbers will just scale out OK. I'll simply transfer just a little bit over 65k for the rest of the year and hope for the best. I am over 65. I think I'll be fine.

If your SS is $1800, that would cover the whole 65k monthly remittance, i.e., no Thai tax. In fact, with your TEDA now at 500k, you could transfer another $1160 per month with still no Thai taxable income. Send an extra $3000 per month -- Thai taxes would be $2900. Assuming you're paying more than this in US taxes -- this $2900 would be a one-for-one tax credit against your US taxes. Yes, Forms 1116 and 8833 would need to be filed. But you say you use an accountant, so no big deal.

You seem to be the average American. So, as has been said all along, Yanks, already taxed on all our income, won't be financially affected by this new situation (nor most, if worldwide income taxation comes in). Unpack your bags.

4 hours ago, Presnock said:

That is why many people will probably need a local tax agent who hopefully understands what the TRD will determine what is assessable or not or as others have suggested, go the the local DTR office (with a Thai speaker if you aren't fluent in Thai) and query their interpretation.

You'll certainly by more knowledgeable about your DTA than a mid level TRD clerk. So why ask him what's what -- since he'll probably not know, but being Thai, and thus never ever saying "I don't know," he'll give a wrong answer you won't like. Just read your DTA, and self assess accordingly. Thus, (for Yanks) all government pensions -- to include State and local govt pensions -- are taxable only by the US, same as Social Security. So, these payouts need never be mentioned, since they're non assessable; plus, there's no where on any form even to mention them, should you want to for some unreasonable reason. Thus, there's no number recorded anywhere that the TRD could be interested in, and so call you in for a chat. So, why would you want to waste time in a TRD office mentioning a number that needs no mentioning -- but to which a blank faced clerk utters an incorrect edict, but to which you now need to file a tax return....... Duh.

So, do your own self assessment, without involving TRD. For the US DTA, most is clear cut, to include: Don't declare govt pensions; but do declare remitted private pensions, to include IRAs and 401ks. For gray areas -- and you've a good, researched argument -- give yourself the advantage by not declaring it. Thus, there's no number on any tax return, should you have to file for other reasons, for the TRD to query. If, in the <1% chance you're called in for an audit, and the missing number comes up -- well, provide them with your well-researched logic. You may not win -- but you certainly would have -- hopefully -- shown you had 'good cause,'  and weren't a flagrant tax evader. [A good example would be a Roth IRA remittance. Roth came about after the US-Thai tax treaty was approved, thus no mention of it; but modern OECD Model tax treaties allow monies exempted by treaty country A to also necessarily be exempted by treaty country B. Take a look at the US-UK tax treaty technical report -- Roth IRAs are specifically addressed as not being taxable by the UK.]

Anyway, know your DTA; don't get a TIN if you don't need to; don't go chat with your neighborhood TRD office; and if your tax situation is simple to moderate, don't waste money on a Thai tax firm. At least not yet -- wait at least until the rules become so convoluted that your situation is no longer 'simple to moderate.'