JimGant

42 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

And expose yourself to 10 years of back audit instead of three!

Your fearmongering is unwarranted. If you have no taxable income, but you file a nil tax return, you're now on the TRD radar as a tax resident -- at least for the tax year of filing. Otherwise, they don't know if you're a tax resident, or ever have been. And, once you're on their radar screen as a tax resident -- because you filed a nil tax return -- well, you've now entered their "people of interest" data base. No thanks.

And I doubt that they have all the Thai banks report the names of all those with "exceptionally large" remittances. But, if they do -- for that year I sent a huge bundle for a new house -- I could survive a sit down to show it came from my savings account. Doubtful they would want to audit another 9 years of my remittances, if no bank reports of exceptionally large remittances were in evidence.

Anyway, this discussion is getting stale. Do what you're comfortable with. Analyze all the probabilities, particularly that TRD even knows that you're a tax resident, and that your remittances are even assessable income. And, in particular, don't let anyone suggest you're a "bad person," and that you're heading for ten years of back audits. Geez!

29 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I wonder how many times we need to go round this loop before you realise that your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to what is required under Thai tax law:

Practicality vs reality. Sometimes we just have to move around a nonsensical decree -- and do the realistic thing. That this doesn't seem to bring law enforcement down upon anyone's head -- seems to state that the Thai govt realizes the stupidity of the existing decree.

Anyway, readers are, of course, allowed to make their own decisions -- based on the merits of this forum's discussions.

39 minutes ago, stat said:

It is even simpler then that because your UK rental income is just taxable in the UK. Apparently you did not look it up in the DBA...

Wrong. Here from the Thai-UK DTA:

Quote

Income from immovable property may be taxed in the Contracting State in which
such property is situated.

The term "may be taxed" is OECD speak for: Country A has primary taxation rights, but Country B has secondary taxation rights. If the treaty had said, "may ONLY be taxed", then Country A has exclusive taxation rights.

The US-UK DTA also has the "may be taxed" language for rental income. However, the technical explanation for this treaty goes on to explain:

Quote

This Article does not grant an exclusive taxing right to the situs State; the situs State is
merely given the primary right to tax.

So, for the UK-Thai DTA: The UK has primary taxation rights, and thus gets to keep all the taxes collected; while Thailand, with secondary rights, can also tax the rental income, but has to absorb a tax credit for the taxes paid to the UK -- meaning, of course, they may not collect anything, should the credit exceed the Thai tax amount.

23 minutes ago, Klonko said:

The difficulty lies not in DTA exempt income, but in handling DTA tax credits, in particular if the tax credits only partially offset Thai tax payable.

Yes. For example, US DTA has Thailand as secondary taxation authority on my US rental income. So, Thailand has to absorb a tax credit for the US taxes paid on that rental income. If this credit exceeded what the Thai tax would be (as figured out on the back of an envelope) -- then, I could just ignore including any line item for taxable US rental income -- since, after the credit, there wouldn't be any.

The above scenario works well when netting out credits leaves a negative figure. But when a US tax credit doesn't erase all the Thai taxes due, you're kind of whistling in the wind on how to incorporate that US tax credit on your Thai tax return (since there's no provision for doing so). I guess you could jigger the rental income figure to, after taxation, reflect what it should be after absorbing the US credit. You'd be completely kosher here in paying Thailand all that's due on that rental income. But, trying to explain how you arrived at these figures would be an interesting discussion, should there be a subsequent audit.

Anyway, while the above seems somewhat mysterious, it is completely doable without hiring a 90k tax agent to navigate the mysteries of DTA tax reporting.

29 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

At this stage in the game, nobody understands how the TRD may handle DTA clauses that are invoked by foreigners, it could even be as simple as check and pass, nobody knows. And since nobody knows, there is no basis whatsoever for the earlier post that I criticised, ergo it is fear mongering and worst case scenario, nothing more.

Hear! Hear!

For Yanks, at least, the DTA with Thailand is straightforward (as are most, since they're based on OECD or UN Model treaty language, where every treaty is a 90% replica of all the others).

What's so difficult about excluding all income from Thai taxation that the treaty says is excludable, like govt pensions? Or for including income in Thai taxation, like a private pension, where the treaty says Thailand has exclusionary taxation rights on such income? This is pretty much straightforward guidance on how income is treated by two countries involved in a treaty. What could be hard about figuring out how this income is treated on each country's tax return..? And can be done without any reference from a DTA on the actual tax return.

But stat says he's had some difficulty invoking DTA guidance. Would love to hear what those circumstances were; I don't doubt they existed, but I'm just curious as to what they were, since my US DTA seems rather straightforward.

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

An audit by the TRD should be quite the experience.  There is very little "official" an expat could provide to show home country tax returns........at least for the US.

Not so.

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/transcript-types-and-ways-to-order-them

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 I have had it confirmed by 2 tax accountant organisations that if I want to lodge a tax return using any part of a DTA for exclusions or allowances or just plain exemptions, I will need to provide detailed techncial and legal information that will be almost impossible for a layman to do in Thailand - they said I will need to use their services

I don't believe it. My US DTA gives the US exclusive taxation rights on my Air Force pension and Social Security. Thus, these figures never need to be shown on a Thai tax return, as there's no taxable income value to them (and where would you put them anyway?). Now, per DTA, Thailand has primary taxation rights on my IRA. So, I report this income, in full, on a line on the Thai tax return. Thailand gets to keep all the taxation, which is all they care about. That the DTA allows a tax credit against my US taxes -- is a no never mind for Thailand TRD -- as they're just happy to collect the full bundle -- and also that they need not report anything to the US IRS (my credit reporting on the US tax return is purely self-assessment, with no official Thai tax return data needed). Thus, this taxation proceeds as if there were no DTA, at least in the mechanics of preparing the return.

So why would you need to pay an agent 90k to file a tax return that uses DTA language to assess which income is reportable on a Thai tax return -- and which isn't? You can figure this all out yourself, assuming average intelligence, as DTA language is not that hard to decipher.  Just keep a legible record of how you arrived at these figures, in case you're called in for an audit. Which, in my example above, would be 100% kosher. And probably would be for most other DTA situations.

Sounds like the tax preparation vultures are beginning to successfully scare the low hanging fruit. Beware.

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

there's a new emphasis on foreigners filing returns and declaring income.

Says who? There's probably a new desire for foreigners -- with TAXABLE income -- to file a tax return, and pay the appropriate taxes. But a desire to have someone with 120k in assessable income -- but who is 380k short of taxable income (after deductions/allowances/150k freebie) -- to have to file a nil tax return -- is NUTS! Why would TRD want to deal with all that worthless paper, and the cost of processing it....?

But, yes, if now you realize that the new remittance rules mean you owe taxes -- by golly, go get a TIN, and then file a tax return, and pay the taxes owed (and then, per DTA, deduct those taxes from your home country tax return).

But if you don't owe Thai taxes -- then don't get a TIN, don't file a nil tax return, and then relax. The worst that can happen is -- in the miniscule chance they'll call you in -- and you did, indeed, have assessable income exceeding 120k -- you'll owe a 2000 baht fine -- which is cheaper than all that effort to get a TIN and to file a tax return -- assuming your time is worth something.

So, use your common sense with this. Yes, if you owe taxes, file and pay. But if you don't -- not to worry about certain suggestions, including the big house, without vaseline.

3 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

I would suggest the assumption will be any funds remitted will be considered assessable unless shown otherwise.

Come on, folks. Use your heads. Are they going to consider all the zillions of dollars of inbound cash flow as assessable income? Then what -- or so what -- will they then interview the owners of all those zillions as to why no Thai tax return was filed? No way. Self-assessment is the only way this thing will work. Yes, if someone has a substantially large remitted amount of money, and no tax return -- then call him in for a chat. But I suspect, to keep these random large-scale audits manageable, what constitutes a 'substantial amount of remittance' will be a rather high number.

But why worry about how they consider all remittances? Makes no difference if you're honest. Just crunch your numbers, and if you have taxable income (i.e., assessable income exceeding allowances, deductions, and the 150k freebie), file a tax return. Period.