JimGant

How much to home country for income generated there?

Ah, no tax credit with your home country? How much would you have paid on this same income to your home country? Nothing? Well, congrats. However, welcome to the interconnected world, where you now pay taxes to someone, for services of some kind rendered. This is why the OECD is re-writing its model tax treaties, no longer just to prevent double taxation -- but to prevent "no double no taxation." (Google it) Hey, tax havens are disappearing is this interconnected world. But as a citizen of a country (US) where I still have to pay taxes (but no double taxation with Thailand, per DTA), I have no sorrow for those tax skates. And a lot of other countries still tax home country incomes. That Thailand, at the beginning of this fire drill on what's what on taxes said: "Show a home country tax return, and then don't worry about filing a tax return with Thailand," maybe that is what it will take. Sadly, no further word on this -- but it sure would put many worries to rest. And I bet we see this as the final word, for matters of simplicity. But, if you currently pay no country any taxes (and have no tax form to wave at RD) -- and may now pay taxes to Thailand: Welcome aboard. Hopefully, a pot hole will be fixed with your money -- and save a tax complaining farang from a Harley headache.

No, just leave. With your sense of disproportion, I can understand why Thais speak badly about you behind your back. Cheers.

Actually, many of us take out loans to preserve our liquid cash position. Bill was especially astute, since this was a case of bringing a loan into Thailand -- or bringing assessable (taxable) income into Thailand. In the former, there's no tax liability up front -- and realistically, no tax liability years down the road when the loan is paid back, by either assessable (but not remitted) or by non assessable income. Thus, a loan bypasses a taxable event. So, once again I say -- FDI, or "foreign investment", if you desire -- is free from Thai taxes. And this is how they want it, as FDI is a powerful economic stimulus. And the poor cousin of FDI, i.e., credit card purchases, is also not going to be taxed. At least not under any realistic scenario. That the Brits -- and apparently they're the only ones -- have a taxation situation with remittances and credit card purchases -- is a curious situation. That certainly doesn't mean Thailand is emulating this scenario, as they've the whole rest of the OECD community to emulate. But, if you're worried your visa will be cancelled, if you don't report your credit card purchases as assessable income -- well, go for it.

I was admonished not to debate on this thread; but going back to page one, here's what the OP says: So, here goes. It would be impractical/ludicrous for RD to consider money remitted to Thailand as income, if it was obtained as a loan. How it was paid off in the future couldn't be known for current taxation purposes; so it wouldn't be known if that payment met assessable income criteria, or not; plus, this money would never be remitted, so, again, super not assessable. AND to say, this payback money of the loan is actually a marker for the loan remittance to Thailand -- is a bit too much. Nope. Credit card payments are nowhere in the first world considered taxable income. And logic dictates they wouldn't either be in Thailand. But, hey, if you're really a super straight shooter -- declare your credit card payments on your Thai tax return (you'll need to invent a line item). But, to be pure, make sure you subtract from those credit card payments any payments to your credit card bank that were non assessable type income, either from pre 2024 accounts, or from govt pensions, etc. Thai RD will really be impressed. And you'll be ready for the funny farm. Oh, yeah -- per the starting quote. Alan's remittance to Thailand is, first and foremost, not attached to its purpose to buy a condo, in RD's eyes. Thus, it's treated as assessable income, if it fits the DTA criteria, and is post Dec 2023 income. Purpose of remitted income is irrelevant. Bill's loan, remitted to Thailand, is, by definition, a loan and not income. That it buys a condo is incidental. And that, in later years, it is paid back by assessable income, a gift from Granny, or never paid back due to bankruptcy -- is a bridge-too-far for Thai RD to possibly consider. Anyway, logic would dictate that credit card charges will not be considered as assessable income. But, hey, if you're worried you'll be suspected of income tax evasion, by all means declare your credit card payments on your Thai tax return. NOT!

Sure it's borrowed money. Paid off with a separate stream of money never remitted to Thailand. I like the condo example better, because it would seem ludicrous to treat borrowed money to buy a condo as assessable income, because eventually it will be paid back with monies that, should they be remitted to Thailand, which they won't, would then be treated as assessable income. I believe we're on what's called a 'circle jerk.'

Ok, call it "foreign investment." Same argument. Borrowed money, of any flavor, ain't gonna be taxed by Thailand. Just ask the condo developers association.

This is akin to Foreign Direct Investment, critical to the health of the Thai economy. Say I borrow $300k from my US bank, and send the money to Thailand to buy a condo. This is FDI, and the Thais certainly aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot by treating it as taxable income. On a smaller scale, I borrow money from my US bank -- via my credit card -- to buy a new cell phone. FDI, on a smaller scale. Same as if I took a cash advance off of my credit card. So, no, I don't think the Thais will treat borrowed money as assessable income. Debit cards, of course, are a different animal. No borrowing here -- just a direct dip into your financial account. But if this account was established and largely funded pre 2024 -- or funded with DTA exempt monies -- no assessable income here.

Thai tax form is only for assessable income. Your UK govt pension is not assessable, per DTA, thus need not be included on a Thai tax form. If this is your only income, no Thai tax form need be filed, i.e., there is no place, nor need, on a Thai form to show income that is not assessable. They don't care to see any income they can't milk taxes from.

Relax. Thailand won't know, or have the resources to uncover, the exact nature of your cash flow into Thailand -- not that you're pulling a fast one. Presumably your IRA is all pre 2024 contributions and reinvested income, thus no assessable income subject to Thai taxation. In the less than 1% chance that you'll get audited, your IRA paperwork will sufffice. And, even if your IRA were taxable by Thailand, you'd get a one for one tax credit against your US tax return's taxes on your IRA. Thus, no added tax hit for Yanks. But, as regards IRA remittances to Thailand, which you can show as pre 2024, no Thai tax return need be filed. Relax. Again, they don't have the resources nor any real need to dig that deep. And if they did, certainly you've got a Wise or other data trail showing this transfer activity. And if that savings account was fully funded pre 2024, you can, on your own accord, opt for FIFO as to how those fungible assets are transferred out, meaning post Dec 2023 deposits and reinvested interest would be last to go, thus probably not even on the radar screen as remitted transfers.

No, the distributions are treated by the US as TAXABLE income at time of distribution; but it was earned years ago, and banked in an IRA account as tax deferred income. So, per Thai guidance: "Offshore-sourced income received before 1 January 2024 can be brought into Thailand in 2024 or later without being subject to Thai personal income tax." The tricky word here might be "received." But I would certainly argue that "received" is equivalent to "earned" -- and not that it wasn't really earned until taxes are paid. This could prove an interesting semantics discussion with a Thai RD person. But that it would ever get to that point, is highly doubtful. Your self assessment on this point, about when the IRA proceeds were earned, should have no head scratching. Yes, if they hadn't interjected the "pre 2024 income" guidance, then your IRA distro to Thailand *would* then be assessable income, per DTA, as it would have been income distributed post Jan 2024 -- and the exclusive taxation right of Thailand, per DTA (with the US saving clause trumping the Thai "exclusivity" clause, so you'll be paying at least someone). Anyway, take your IRA RMD, pay Uncle Sam taxes as if it were ordinary income, and don't worry about Thailand.

Good point. Unlike the US-Thai treaty, the UK-Thai treaty is short on declaring what income is exclusive to Thailand (e.g., private pensions). Thus, a lot more wiggle room to declare home country taxation rules the day.

First and foremost, as least regarding US taxes, the only "at source" taxation I know of is for payments to non resident aliens. This is a final tax, with a fixed rate, which would make no sense for a US taxpayer, subject to a graduated tax scale. Thus, forget the "at source" stuff -- the US taxpayer figures out his taxable income via 1099 reports or from a spreadsheet, where sales proceeds minus basis, arrives at a taxable gain. At any rate, he files a tax return with this information. Let's use my IRA annual payment (called a Required Minimum Distribution - RMD) as one example source of income. Per the DTA, if I remit this income to Thailand, Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on this income, and the US secondary rights, per the saving clause in the DTA. This will only show up on a Thai tax return -- if I so declare, as they won't know what part of my cash flow into Thailand from my bank account is assessable income. And Thai RD has no way of knowing whether or not I paid US taxes on this income, nor, probably what the DTA says about this income, i.e., whether or not it gets a US tax credit against it -- or whether the US gets a Thai tax credit against it. Again, it is my self-assessment in reporting this. And, per the DTA, with Thailand having exclusive taxation rights, I declare the whole amount as assessable income, i.e., not offset by a US tax credit. This is probably all, or most, transparent to Thai RD, who maybe has no interest in or knowledge of any related DTA. Or, maybe I just take Sherring's advice, and don't even declare this on a Thai tax return, since according to Sherring, as it's taxed by the home country, double taxation is avoided by just not paying Thai taxes on it (a spreadsheet would show US tax credits completely wipe out any Thai taxation). But, if I follow the DTA treaty rules, I pay Thailand full fare taxes on this RMD, and take the Thai taxes as a credit against my US taxes. Again, this is all done with information I collect. Thailand doesn't send any information to the IRS. And they're completely oblivious to the fact that their taxes are being used as a tax credit on a US tax return. Why would they care -- it doesn't affect the taxes they collect.. Oh, I could even figure out what my Thai taxes would be on this RMD, long before I even file a Thai tax return, via a little spreadsheet work. Nothing official need be provided the US on this Thai tax credit. I just plug the numbers into Form 1116 -- and realize a one for one offset in my US tax bill, i.e., no extra taxes paid anyone in this scenario. But, the DTA rules are at least followed in this scenario. Anyway, Sherring doesn't agree. But here's a better take on tax credits: https://www.cpasforexpats.com/post/us-thailand-tax-treaty

You're absolutely correct. The tax treaty prohibits double taxation. Do a little research, and relax.

Ok, per my entry, and in your opinion -- is Sherrings, as presumably a rep of RD, correct that tax credits will only be one-way, i.e., from home country to Thailand? If you agree with that, does that make any sense in light of what a DTA grants Thailand in taxation exclusivity? Just curious.

It may seem like baloney from a DTA perspective but that is what the RD confirmed in the Sherrings Q&A, Q15 below https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html You know for a fact this is what RD confirmed to Sherrings? You're in contact with them? If true, this says Thailand will forego a lot of tax collection from income the DTAs say is theirs exclusively. Why? Because Sherrings is saying tax credits will only go one way -- from home country taxation to Thailand taxation; meaning, the home country gets to keep all taxation, since they have no credits to absorb. But Thailand gets to keep only taxes left after netting out the home country credits. Only where home country taxes are slight, or even nil -- will Thailand get some tax collections in their coffers ('cause there would be no, or slight, home country credits -- per the Sherring report -- against Thai taxation). For countries like the US, where taxation on income remitted to Thailand will probably exceed what the Thai taxation would be on same -- Thailand collects zip -- even tho' the DTA says they have exclusive taxation rights. So, for Thailand to get what the DTA says they deserve, the credit granting needs to be reversed: Thailand gets first taxation rights on the income stipulated by the DTA; as such, they get to keep every satang of that tax collection; and the home country has to absorb a tax credit for the taxes paid to Thailand. For most taxpayers, this will just mean less taxes paid to home country, more to Thailand -- but totaling up the same. No net difference financially -- just more paperwork involved, what with having to file a Thai tax return. But, per Sherring (who hopefully is in the know with Thai RD), Thailand is not interested in collecting taxes they're due via a DTA. Instead, just allow the home country to keep all taxes, and issue a credit against any Thai taxes. There, Double Taxation Question solved. Ridiculous. [But easy to fix, so we probably haven't heard the end of this Again, same total tax bill, but now with country A getting more, and country B getting less -- per the DTA.]

You'd be better off with a credit card, which, I guess, is harder for some to get than a debit card.... Some credit card issuers, like Capital One, have virtual credit cards that use throwaway credit card info (tied to your actual account, of course) for online purchases. Nice safety feature. Plus, of course, fraud won't clean out, nor even touch, your bank account. Getting a credit for a fraudulent purchase is faster and more efficient than trying to reload your bank account. Then, most credit cards have cash back credits -- and the credit card companies have better guarantee policies, as far as I know. Anyway, I'm preaching to the choir. If you have the option of a credit card over a debit card -- you're already there.

Since they're not made by Boeing, the doors and panels shouldn't fall off. Excellent replacement for the light attack OV-10s that Wing 41 retired many years ago.

Under FATCA, banks are only required to report on "US persons" with $50,000 or more in their account(s) at the end of the year. Thus, I would say, very few "US persons" are being reported to Treasury Dept. And now with CRS coming to Thailand, Thai banks will no longer just have FATCA to curse for burdensome reporting requirements.

No, they're wrong. Foreign sourced income earned in 2023, and remitted to Thailand in 2023, are assessable. Had you waited until this year, or later, to remit, then, yes, it would then not be assessable.

Please refresh my memory. When was this, and what dire consequences happened?

Here's the problem. This is a quote from you, from the Swiss post that was taken down. In the beginning, we heard, "If you have a DTA, and you pay home country taxes, you won't owe taxes in Thailand." This seemed to be the RD way of not having to deal with the specifics of individual DTAs, but just avoid double taxation by acknowledging that you paid taxes to your home country. End of discussion. No need to file a Thai tax return. And this may be the way it will be going forward -- wave a home country tax return (regardless of how much paid, if any, in home country taxes) in the faces of Thai RD, and thus have no Thai tax obligation. But this is absurd, if Thailand really wants to utilize all their DTAs to collect taxes that they have primary taxation authority over. Using my 401a as an example. Thailand, per DTA, has primary taxation authority on my remitted 401a. Thus, they get to keep every baht of taxes collected from this income -- it is NOT offset by any tax credit from my US taxes -- but the US does have to accept a tax credit from Thailand. So, even if the Thai taxes owed on this income is, say, $100 -- and the taxes on the same income paid to the US is $500 -- Thailand at least gets to keep $100 in taxes -- and the US only nets $400 in taxes, after subtracting out the Thai tax credit of $100. For me, the US taxpayer, my total tax bill between the two countries is still $500. So, no big deal that Thailand is finally utilizing the provisions of the DTA. But a big deal for them, if they don't...... Bottom line: I don't understand why Thailand would just say, always use your home country's taxes as a tax credit against Thai taxes -- and, in most cases, don't owe anything to Thailand. Why not use their primary taxation authority to issue, not accept, tax credits -- and at least collect the taxes they're owed? And, for Yanks, this would have little, if any affect, on the total tax bill between countries. Anyway, I'm sure we'll hear more about the affects of DTAs on future Thai tax matters. If not, the Thais will be losing out on tax revenues -- when it wouldn't take much to just clarify how self-assessment vis-a-via one's DTA with Thailand should apply.

Out of curiosity, why do you need a 1099? I guess if you're not getting any mail, you didn't get the "here are your new benefits" letter from the SSA at the beginning of the year (which has all the same info as a 1099). But, if you have no withholding, you certainly can figure out what the SSA paid you in 2023, by looking at your bank statement where your SS check is deposited... Anyway, no 1099s need be filed with electronic filing; and hardcopy by mail filing only requires a 1099 if there is withholding tax involved.

If somehow all the money you wire to Thailand can strictly be identified as dividends and interest -- paid after Jan 1, 2024 -- then, yes, Thailand has first taxation dibs. But whatever Thai taxes you pay can be used as a tax credit against your US taxes (per the DTA rules and Form 8833 rules). [US gets to tax it due to the saving clause, which allows taxation of virtually all worldwide income, regardless of what any DTA says.] But are you filtering these dividends and interest through a bank account that existed pre 2024? And if so, the balance that existed Dec 31, 2023 is your forever never assessable amount of money that can be remitted to Thailand. This, too, for your IRA balance on 31 Dec, as this was also income paid pre 31 Dec -- that it was tax deferred doesn't enter into the equation for remitted money to Thailand. We're not really playing fast and lose with the fungibility of money concept. Accounting rules like FIFO and LIFO don't apply to remittances, but to inventories. So the co-mingling of pre and post 2024 monies in a bank account aren't addressed in worldwide accounting concepts when it comes to remittances. And Thailand probably won't become a unique player in defining which end of the money pot remittances come from first. So, for now, you're on solid ground to self-designate that your wire remittances to Thailand are FIFO. Hey, you take advantage of every angle that doesn't bend any existing rule. Besides, the chance that Thai RD will want to discuss any of this with you is practically nil -- and if they do, you're on solid ground. So, what was your financial bottom line on 31 Dec 2023? Consider this amount as completely exempt from any future Thai taxes, to be added to any amounts, like gov't pensions and social security, also exempt, per DTA.

Remember this nugget, from page one of the 232 treatise on the new tax: The OP is paying US tax on this income in question. Early in the game, per the above quote, it appeared Thai RD didn't want to waste resources by fine toothing every DTA on which country gets primary taxing authority, then has to issue a credit, blah blah. Instead, if you can wave a DTA and a tax return from home country at RD, then, no taxes owed to Thailand. Simple, sensible approach. Haven't heard anything more on whether or not this approach is still viable -- or never was ever viable. But, obviously, a question whose answer would help the OP -- and would certainly put to rest questions by others paying home country taxes and wondering about having to file a Thai tax return. Maybe we haven't heard more about this because it was too simplistic in the early goings-on of this new tax drill..... But, a reaffirmation sure would go a long ways, particularly for Yanks, who normally always file a tax return, even if no taxes owed due to standard deduction being greater than gross income.