JimGant

Well, yes and no. If a DTA says your gov't pension is not taxable by Thailand, but only by your home country -- then, yes, your gov't pension is not assessable income for Thai tax purposes. However, if the DTA says Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on private pensions (which the US DTA clearly states), then that would be assessable income -- IF (under the old rules) it is remitted in year earned. Under the new (proposed) rules, all pre-Jan 1, 2024 earnings are not assessable income - if remitted to Thailand after 31 Dec 2023. Which says you'd best open a new bank account for your 2024 and later earnings -- and do your wire transfers from your pre-2024 bank account -- not that they'll ever have the resources to efficiently investigate transfer sources.

How so? If all my remitted income was from an earlier year, I had no assessable income for Thai tax purposes -- thus no tax filing obligation. Are you saying you somehow had to remit current year income, thus having assessable income for Thai tax purposes? No savings or checking account from a prior year to "filter" your wire transfers through? Weird.

Under the recently expired rule, income remitted in a later year than the year earned -- was not assessable income, at least for taxation purposes. In my case, my Wise transfers came from a savings account, many years old, containing tons of earnings from previous years. As far as I was concerned, I was compliant with Thai law, in that remitted earnings were from (or at least could shown to be) from earlier times. Thus, no assessable income for tax purposes, no need to file a tax return. For those with direct deposits into Thailand, or who didn't have a checking/savings account several years old, from which to derive their wires into Thailand -- you might not pass the integrity test. However, Thai RD was smart enough to know that they didn't have the resources to ferret out such folks.

If you send USD, the rate is established at the receiving end. Thus, another reason not to convert at the sending end, especially between a major currency and a thinly traded currency like the baht -- where you get hosed by the spread.

They'd be remiss if they didn't, since they have 60 tax treaty agreements that give them first taxation rights on certain pensions -- mainly private pensions (but not gov't pensions). Identifying these private pensions would be easy, if they're direct deposited into a Thai bank account. Not so easy if these private pensions are part of a fungible glob of cash flow wired into Thailand, where much, if not most, are not private pensions, and not taxable per the DTA. Here, it would seem only self-assessment by the sender of what part of the wire is assessable income, per DTA, would be the only workable solution. But this might collect more money than you think, because it you're already paying taxes on these pensions in your home country (like in the US), should Thailand finally utilize the DTA to their benefit -- you'll now mainly pay taxes to Thailand, instead of the US (when you factor in the tax credit from the Thai taxes). So, your combined tax bill --assuming you do owe some US tax, after factoring in the tax credit -- will be the same as if Thailand never took advantage of the DTA (and even less, if you're Norwegian, where any taxes paid to Thailand will negate a tax requirement to Norway, which are higher than Thailand taxes). So, self assessment should be profitable, which is nice for Thailand, since there's no real alternative. No big deal for Yanks -- my IRA would now have to be declared to Thailand, so, yeah, some more paperwork. But, as previously said, my US tax on this IRA (payable due to the saving clause in the DTA) would be reduced dollar for dollar by the Thai tax credit. Ho hum. No new hole in my pocket. You're not paying taxes now on your pension -- and are horrified by your country's DTA now allowing Thailand to tax it? Welcome to the OECD's latest effort in re-writing their model tax treaties to, not just eliminate double taxation, but to eliminate no taxation, period. So solly.

They've improved of late. I just sent $20k Jan 1, afternoon, Thai time. It was in my Bangkok Bank account in less than 24 hours the next day, at 1400 (which seems to be the standard log in time for Wise transfers). For some reason, the larger the amount sent, the longer it takes -- or at least that used to be the case. 20 grand in less than 24 hours is right up there with a SWIFT transfer.

All transfers, income and capital...? Did you really think that through before you hit "send?"

PKF Nuobello issues two points that says they are staffed by uninformed personnel. User beware. First Point: Good grief. There would never be, nor is there any realistic discussion about, a flat 35% "final tax at source" on remitted income, or in the confusion, all remitted cash flows (see next point). If remitted income is going to go through the Thai tax process, it will be in the orderly laddered tax bracket method -- where, yes, 35% is the top rate -- but under the laddered bracket method, your effective tax rate would never reach 35%. Second point: Of course there is. There's just no way to parse out from a wired cash flow into Thailand what part is income, and what part is savings. The new proposed reg addresses taxing remitted ASSESSABLE INCOME -- not taxing after-tax capital savings cash flows into Thailand. But -- and here's why it's taking so long to sort out -- it's impossible to differentiate income from capital in a cash flow from a foreign bank. Yes, if that cash flow was a direct deposit of your Boeing pension check, then, yes -- prima facie on taxability (subject to DTA, of course). Otherwise, a Wise transfer from my savings account, primarily funded with inheritance monies, is going to be impossible to parse income from savings. Anyway, PKF Nuobello gets a thumbs down, at least from me.

Remember, this whole enchilada was about taxing remitted ASSESSABLE INCOME, not taxing all remitted cash inflows. Banks aren't capable of differentiating between income and capital in a cash flow wire from your home country's checking or savings account. Neither is the RD. And they're not about to tax ALL remittances -- no further discussion needed on that point. Where does that leave us? Self-assessment, I guess -- with some new RD hires to do random compliance audits. Obviously, if they dropped the remittance aspect and just taxed income where and when earned, they'd have a lot bigger tax base -- with CRS and FATCA reporting now in play. But I'm sure there's already push back from the high rollers over dropping the remittance aspect. That we haven't heard anything further of late says there must be some heated discussions going on.

Huh? That money was already here before Jan 1, 2024 -- thus grandfathered from the post Jan 1, 2024 remittance rules..... Please share your logic, if it exists..... Wise transfers of my Air Force and Social Security pay, which are exclusively taxable by the US. For the Mercedes purchase, I transferred money from my savings account, founded with an inheritance from Aunt Martha. Should the RD want to have a few rounds on income vs capital, that might prove interesting. But, I really don't think they have, or can afford to have, the resources for such scrutiny. No, they'll reap enough new money when they finally post definitive rules on their latest tax scheme -- and then rely on self-assessment.

An observation: Those with 800k in the bank for retirement extensions, as of 31 Dec 2023, will not come under Immigration scrutiny for taxes, since pre Jan 2024 monies are exempt from the new proposed rules. Just don't let that 800k drop down, as allowed, since the money you backfill with, before your next extension, WILL be tainted under the new rules -- and maybe subject to Imm scrutiny. But, kinda late now to switch from the 65k/mo to the 800k method. I never quite understood why those who had both options, complained about the opportunity cost of losing home country interest to the lower Thai rates. If this made the difference between you eating chicken instead of steak -- well, your problem was more extensive than opportunity cost.

https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/why-weve-downgraded-fidelity-contrafund Good find. Something to consider in your overall evaluation of whether or not to invest in Contrafund.

Been a good year for US stocks, particularly compared to last year. Now, I've never been smart enough to invest in individual stocks -- figured the insiders have already queered the package. But, years ago, in researching where to put my IRA tax deferred inputs, the reports on an actively managed fund, Contrafund, caught my attention. Hence, that's where I went. Nice choice, as it turned out; haven't quite made the million mark, per the link, below, due to RMDs, but close. And, of course, 'past is not prologue,' so maybe Contrafund's magic is burned up. Nevertheless, if you're stuck with an under performing mutual fund, maybe a look at this article is warranted: https://pictureperfectportfolios.com/fidelity-contrafund-fcntx-review-actively-managed-mutual-fund/

Yes, US citizens are taxed on worldwide income, and thus are treated as if they're residents of the US (and, yeah, file Form 1040, same as a real US resident). But, if they live here in Thailand for over 180 days, they're tax residents of Thailand, as far as the DTA is concerned. And this gives Thailand 'first dibs' on certain income -- but such income is still subject to US taxation, per the saving clause -- with credits avoiding double taxation. As far as the Form 2555 is concerned, this deals only with foreign earned income. It has nothing to do with how US income is dealt with by the Thais, per the DTA, which is what all these latest threads are about. Sure, it's nice to know, if you work full time here in Thailand, how to avoid declaring your Thai income on your US tax return (Form 2555). But that's not what this discussion is about.

....'cause the Swiss tax US IRAs as income, not as REMITTED ONLY income. Wait 'til Thailand does away with the remittance aspect, then you'll see that the US tax treaty with Thailand, and with Switzerland, are near identical -- and definitely identical in how IRAs are treated. Guavaman has done an excellent presentation on how this works. Suggest you re-read.

Not up to Thailand for this determination. If Thailand has "exclusive" taxation rights per the DTA on certain incomes, like private pensions and IRAs (which "only may be taxed in the country of residence"), then they get to keep all the taxes they collect under their tax rules. Only the US, in this example, determines whether or not to allow a tax credit in order to eliminate double taxation; but of course the US only realizes any taxes collected, if the US tax bill exceeds the allowed credits. And the only reason the US can tax this income, which is the exclusive taxation right of Thailand, is because of the saving clause, which says, the US may tax all incomes as if the DTA didn't exist -- with a few exceptions, like alimony and child support. But, the DTA is not the sole reason double taxation is avoided -- the US Revenue Code has always allowed tax credits to avoid double taxation; but, it's only for foreign taxes on foreign income -- not foreign taxes on US income subject to Thai taxes. But, because of the DTA, the Revenue Code can be trumped, to allow credits for Thai taxes on US income. The kicker here is that a Form 8833 needs to submitted with your US tax filing, explaining how the DTA overrides the Code. Hey, I'm not making this sh**** up.

Nice round figure. So, my income is Air Force pension (not assessable, per DTA), Social Security (not assessable, per DTA), and a required minimum distribution from my IRA, last year being $11000 -- which is assessable, per DTA. BUT, when netted against my allowance/deduction/exemption of $15000 (500k baht), I have a Taxable Income of negative $4000, i.e, I have no taxable income thus should not be required to file a Thai tax return. Several takes on this, but the 'no need to file' makes the most sense. Some say they're redesigning the tax return to be able to list tax credits. That's nice. But if you have no income from which to take tax credits from -- why would you list tax credits? Anyway, I'll just be glad I have an LTR visa as insurance against idiocy in the Thai Revenue Department, however that might develop....

Well, yes. But you better have shut down the account by Dec 31st 2023 -- or newer deposits will queer the pot, since there are no accounting rules, to my knowledge, that dictate FIFO or LIFO for remittances; under GAAP, this is for inventory accounting.

Yes, indeed. I'm looking at where things are headed post Jan 1 2024. And, actually, where things might go, should Thailand wise up, and forget the remittance fiasco. In which case, a simple, ah, you cashed out $10000 from your IRA, subject to ordinary taxation, and subject, first, to Thai taxation. All easily identifiable. But, if the remittance rule remains, if you put your IRA distribution into your checking or savings account, mixed with other deposits, say, from military retirement and social security -- and you do a wire transfer to Thailand -- how do you decipher which money was sent, from among the various deposits mixed into a fungible pile of money? You can't. Hence, we're back to the unsolvable problem Thailand will have on sorting out remittance streams for taxability. Stay tuned.

Actually, under the DTA, Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on IRAs, which the language "shall be taxable only in that State" means: Now, there is no "exclusivity" in US DTAs, due to the saving clause, that allows the US to tax all global income as if the DTA did not exist. But, with such wording that makes Thailand exclusive taxing authority, the US becomes secondary taxing authority with its saving clause. And, as such, it has to absorb the tax credit from Thailand, and Thailand gets to keep the entire tax proceeds. Thus, there is no US tax credit against Thai taxes -- only a Thai tax credit against US taxes. So, unless the Thai taxes are greater than the US taxes on the IRA distribution, your overall tax bill will be the same as if your IRA wasn't taxed by Thailand.

Possibly. I don't think that's their intention, but the US international Tax Treaties appear to apply based on residence. So tax free retirement vehicles in the US suddenly are not tax free if living in Thailand. That's not unusual as it seems to be the same for other countries treaties with the US for their retirement accounts. The OECD and UN Model intent is shown in the US-UK DTA, note this quote from the Technical Explanation: The US-Thai DTA was written before this OECD/UN Model sentiment, so such language isn't found in that DTA; but the later written US-UK DTA *did* incorporate such language. Now, Tax Treaties can be modified with with "exchange of notes" and "protocols." No doubt a lengthy ordeal, so, I guess, the Thais could tax your Roth during the years needed to change the treaty. Not too sure I'd worry about this wrinkle -- I'd just not declare my Roth distribution --knowing the current OECD sentiment -- along with non declaration of my Air Force pension and other non assessable income, per DTA.

Pretty stupid response. Backing out, you're heading into the wide expanse of the non-parking apron; not a lot of poles and adjacent cars to maneuver around. The best parking design is the angled parking slots, where it's even easier to back out than from a square one. Not sure why we don't see more of those, 'tho I guess it does reduce available parking slots by one.

What's the parking situation now? By the way, is it mandatory in Thailand to back into these square parking slots? Never had to do that back home, thus my reverse-into-a-tight-spot skills suck.

My read is that the Form 8833 would be required, if you filed the Form 1116, where you would check the box, "Income resourced by treaty." Doing so begs for a Form 8833. If I ever have to do this, I'd probably be below $600 in Thai taxes as a credit, which (filing jointly) means no Form 1116 required -- only a single line item entry on Schedule 3, Form 1040. If I had to file a Form 1116, with the Form 8833, I couldn't file electronically (at least with TurboTax). But, I love filing electronically, so I would; I'd just mail the Form 8833 separately, with an explanation (this avenue is not advertised, but you can mail a Form 8833 by itself, if you have no tax obligation but are taking advantage of a tax credit). The following link is a good description of how a DTA treats an IRA. Just replace "Switzerland" with "Thailand" -- and you have a good picture of how things may become.

Strictly speaking, if the DTA says Thailand has primary taxing rights on said income, then they can tax it -- and as primary taxing authority, they get to keep all the tax collection but provide a credit to the home country's taxation. Of course, if you've already paid full up tax to your home country, you'd either have to file an amended return, or carry the credit over to the next year (at least under US tax guidance). Pretty messy and involved. I like the original posts to all these threads that said, "If you have a DTA and you pay taxes in your home country, Thailand will leave you alone." But, I guess we never saw anything official along those lines. But that would be nice and simple, at least for those of us that do pay taxes in our home country.